Ho'oponopono

Dr Len points out that we always need to remember the very old saying:
“Peace begins with me.” He says that if there is to be peace on earth;
it needs to begin individually with each one of us.

Dr Len says that Ho’oponopono is about looking within ourselves for
debts, errors or blocks in our subconscious mind that replay as
problems, judgments, putdowns and all kinds of other problems.

The Blocks Are Within
Dr Len says that Ho’oponopono is about saying to The Divine within us
(The Self): “I am sorry, please forgive me for whatever is going on in
me, that I experience the world in me this way”.

Taking 100% Responsibility
Dr Len says that when we are willing to take 100% responsibility for
whatever we experience in our life, we can then go onto the next step
where we say “I am sorry, and not only am I sorry, but please forgive
me for what ever is going on in me that caused this”.
By saying sorry and taking 100% responsibility for whatever is going
on in our lives, we are in essence saying to The Divine “I am 100%
responsible, the problem is within me, and I would like You to convert
whatever that memory, debt, block, error or problem is to nothing.”
And when The Divinity converts the block or memory to nothing, we
return back to our original state, which is Zero or clarity.
Dr Len says that only when we have clarity, can The Divinity provide
us with insight, inspiration and whatever is perfect for us.

Dr Len Watches Himself
Dr Len says that as he experiences whatever comes in to his life, he
gets back to his Ho’oponopono cleaning, because he knows that “Peace
begins with me”.
Dr Len says that he is willing to be 100% responsible for whatever he
experiences in his life, and he makes the point that as he experiences
woes and problems in his life, he constantly reminds himself that the
source that caused it is within him.

Dr Len Is Working Moment To Moment With Divinity
Dr Len points out that therapists that take 100% responsibility for
what they see in their clients and include “I am sorry” and “I love
You” as part of their work with patients feel less burned out, and are
much more effective because “Peace begins with me”.

The Problem Is Within Us
Dr Len says that as we are willing to be 100% responsible for whatever
we experience in our lives, we shift our perception of the world, and
that causes the world to change.
We have to take 100% responsibility for the problem within us.
Dr Len says that we all keep looking outside of ourselves for how we
can solve the world’s problems, but that doesn’t work.

Working On Others Is Not Our Job
Dr Len points out that he was trained as an educator from 1964 to 1982
to help handicapped and developmentally disabled children, but then
over twenty years later, he learned that that is not his job.

Change The Way We Perceive Other People
Dr Len then learned that his job is to help himself by letting go of
how he perceived handicapped children.
As he changed the way that he perceived handicapped children (quite
like how he changed the way he perceived the mentally criminally
insane patients at the Hawaii State Hospital in the late 80’s) they
changed.

Dr Len points out that it is most important to look at our own world
first, and if we are willing to do that, our impact on the whole
Cosmos will be enormous.
He went on to stress that most people think they are here to help
other people and bring peace to the world, but that we are only here
to bring peace to ourselves, because by bringing peace to ourselves,
we bring peace to the world (and not the other way round).

Dr Len says that the only thing that works is if we look within
ourselves and clear up the “stuff” in us. He points out that as he
does this, he notices that people get well and are able to start
taking responsibility for themselves.

Shakespeare’s Profound Insight
According to Dr Len, the person who had the most profound insight into
the human condition was Shakespeare. Shakespeare points out over and
over in all of his Sonnets that the woes that we experience now are
the woes that we have experienced before.

The Change First Has To Happen In Us
Dr Len says that when we see the woe in a judgmental way, it means
that it is already in us, but if we let go of if and do our
Ho’oponopono cleaning by saying “I’m sorry for whatever is going on in
me that I perceive the woe a certain way”, only then does it change.
But the change has to take place in us first.

Incessant Ho’oponopono Cleaning
Dr Len says that cleaning memories from our subconscious mind takes
incessant moment by moment Ho’oponopono cleaning.
Experience People The Way The Divine Created Them
Dr Len points out that we never experience things correctly, but we
always experience our reaction to them. Dr Len knows that when he
meets people, he does not experience them the way The Divine created
them, so he continuously cleans by saying to The Divine “I am sorry
for what ever is going on in me that I do not experience people the
way You created them, please forgive me”.
By doing this, Dr Len is asking The Divinity to cancel what is in him,
that causes him to react to people, and not see them as they truly are
– Divine Beings.
Dr Len says that once we let go of the dictate of memories by doing
the Ho’oponopono cleaning, the memories stop playing, and not only the
memories we hear playing, but many other memories simultaneously
playing, but we are unaware of.

He says that when we do Ho’oponopono, we are asking The Divine to
remove the faults from our Soul and subconscious mind so that we can
see people being perfect, the way The Divine created them, and when we
respond to them, they will respond as being perfect.
Dr Len went on to say that if we want to see people without problems,
we need to get rid of our own problems first.

Dr Len says that Ho’oponopono is only about working on yourself and
looking at the data and info in your personal subconscious mind that
causes burdens and should be removed.

Anger Is A Memory Replaying
Dr Len says that when people are angry, it is not the person who is
angry, but it is a memory replaying anger.
He said that if we know this and keep it mind, we can change the data.
The Ho’oponopono we do is not changing the other person, because that
person is perfect, but what is imperfect is the data, and we have to
ask The Divinity to convert that data to zero.

100% Responsibility For Whatever We Are Experiencing
Dr Len says that when we are doing Ho’oponopono, we are clearly
stating to The Divine “I am 100% responsible for what I am
experiencing, and I am experiencing suffering in the form of judgment
or whatever. Something is going on in me (some data or memory) and it
is dictating this experience, and I would like to be 100% responsible
for it. I am sorry for that.”
He went on to say that the conscious mind does not take responsibly,
and resorts to blame.

Erasing Memories Replaying In The Subconscious Mind
Dr Len says that as humans, we have “stuff” going on that we can’t
help because of the memories replaying in our subconscious mind, and
these blocks prevent us from experiencing
The Divine.
Ho’oponopono is about erasing those memories that keep us from
absolutely truly living and not being constrained by fear and how we
feel.
Ho’oponopono is about working on whatever is going on in us that we
are not able (generation after generation) to move through to a point
where we can experience The Divine.

Avoid Trying To Figure Out What Is Going On
Dr Len say that Ho’oponopono is about giving up those things in us
that keep us stuck and constrained, and that we have no idea of what
those things even are.
He says that we don’t know what we don’t know, so he tries not to
figure out what is going on in his life, or with the people that he
consults with, but that all times, he only does his Ho’oponopono
cleaning on himself.

Dr Len points out that as he does his personal Ho’oponopono cleaning,
he notices that people are able to work through their problems, and
often they say to him that they would also like to learn how to do
Ho’oponopono themselves.

Who Are We?
Dr Len says that we can be our own therapist/guru/healer, and that all
we have to do is answer a couple of questions; - The most important
being “Who am I?”
According to Dr Len, that is the most important question of creation,
but unfortunately, most people don’t know who they are.
Dr Len said that if we know who we are, we would realize that we need
to take 100% responsibility for everything we experience in our life,
but that we cannot blame other people for not knowing this.

What Is A Problem?
The other thing we need to know, according to Dr Len is “What is a
problem, and where is the problem?”
Dr Len says that all problems are a result of memories replaying in
our subconscious mind, but that he does not deal with problems.

He says that we are all children of The Divine, and are an exact
replica of The Divinity, which is at its natural state Void (clear)
and Infinite, and that our job is to return to that original state of
being clear, empty and Infinite.
So Ho’oponopono is about erasing and cleaning the block in our
subconscious mind so that we can come back to zero/clarity, and that
only out of that clarity can Divinity come in as inspiration.

Being Clear And Infinite
Dr Len says that every day he works on letting go of the blocks in his
life, that keep him from being one with The Divine; - Which is to be
Clear and Infinite.
Dr Len says that he does his Ho’oponopono cleaning so that he is clear
and able to move through his life without experiencing hardships,
anger, resentment, blame or problems.

Blame Doesn’t Work
Dr Len says that blame and saying “How Come?” doesn’t work in therapy,
family or governments, but when we get back to Zero, then The Divinity
can infuse our mind with whatever is perfect for us.
Dr Len says that he takes 100% responsibility for whatever he
experiences as problem in the word, because he knows that the whole
world is within him, and that as he changes by being 100% responsible
and saying “I’m sorry”, the world changes too.

Moment By Moment Ho’oponopono Cleaning
Dr Len says that he drinks blue solar water moment by moment because
it is another important Ho’oponopono cleaning tool.
From the moment that Dr Len gets up in the morning, until he goes to
bed at night, he is staying with the Ho’oponopono cleaning, because he
knows that erasing memories requires incessant Ho’oponopono cleaning.
He says that as we stop cleaning, we go ‘bonkers’ with the rest of the
world.

Cleaning On People’s Names
Dr Len says that as people sign up for his weekend Ho’oponopono
seminars, he works on their names before he enters the room.
He does this because he is attempting to reduce “piles of
stuff” (memories and data in his subconscious mind) that he shares
with other people. He says that if he doesn’t do this, he will show up
at the class, and the class will go crazy and be stuck in thinking
because he didn’t get ready for them.
Dr Len is always doing his Ho’oponopono cleaning – before, during and
after he does anything.
Dr Len says that Divinity knows his connection with people he has not
yet met, and whatever memories he has in common with them, and which
memories are important for him to let go of.

Talking To The Divinity, Who Knows Everything
Dr Len says that Ho’oponopono is about talking to The Divinity, Who
knows everything, and that he (Dr Len) is just making amends with The
Divinity, because he doesn’t have any idea of what may be going on in
him that is going to bug other people.
So Dr Len looks at The Divinity within himself which is The Source
that knows everything, because he (Dr Len) knows nothing.
Dr Len went on to say that there is a part of us called “The Divine
Creator”, and that Source knows what is going on. That is why we make
an appeal, and that Source in us can cancel the information and data
in our subconscious mind.

The Intellect Cannot Cancel Error Memories
Dr Len makes that point our intellect does not have the ability to
cancel error memories in our subconscious mind because that is not its
function.
The function of the intellect, according to Dr Len, is to make the
choice of whether we are going to take 100% responsibility for
everything we experience in our life (or not), and that he would like
to be 100% responsible for whatever is in him that would bug other
people.

Memories Make Decisions For Us
Dr Len made the point that there is enough research that proves that
at any second, there are more than 11 million pieces of data going on,
but that our conscious mind is only aware of 15 of them. (Tor
Norretranders - The User Illusion)
He went on to say that it is scientifically proven that our conscious
mind does not make our decisions, but that it is memories that that
define our decisions for us.
Dr Len also said that it is memories that tell us to judge and have
anger and resentment, and the conscious mind itself does not make
decisions.

Allowing Divinity To Make Our Decisions
But Dr Len wants Divinity to make his decisions.
Dr Len says that we can’t serve two masters; memories making decisions
and Divinity. We need to choose, and in order to have Divinity make
the decisions for us, we need to have the memories in our subconscious
mind cancelled.

Everyone Is Already Perfect
Dr Len stressed that everyone is already perfect, but what is
imperfect is the data in our subconscious minds, and that is what we
have got to work on.
Dr Len said that the world is within us, and by changing the world in
us, we change everything.

Concert Master At The Symphony Orchestra
Dr Len used the analogy of the concert master at the symphony
orchestra to explain the Ho’oponopono cleaning.
“The orchestra always tunes up before beginning, and this is what the
Ho’oponopono cleaning is, because as we get tuned up, so does everyone
else. But if we come in un-tuned, it is hell to pay, and we will feel
pain”.
Dr Len says that as we change the data in us that we have in common
with other people, The Divine erases it from us, and them too.
Dr Len concluded by asking: What kind of profound shift would the
whole world experience if everyone took 100% responsibility for
everything they experienced in their life and did not get caught up in
blame?

**Copyright Notice/Reprint Policy**
In order to get the Ho’oponopono message into the world’s
consciousness as quickly as possible, feel free to share the complete
contents of this article with as many people as you’d like (However,
no changes may be made to its content without written permission from
Saul Maraney).
WANT TO USE THIS ARTICLE IN YOUR E-ZINE OR WEBSITE?
Yes, you can, provided you include the copyright statement below and
this blurb with it:
Copyright © Saul Maraney - 2007. All Rights Reserved http://www.whatishooponopono.com/
Download your FREE Exclusive Ho’oponopono Interview with Mabel Katz
Today!
Posted by T at 3:54 PM

BS! Talk about appropriation of Spirituality!
Please research well before posting to Alt Native.
Ho'oponopono is Hawaiian. Ho'oponopono it to set right, to correct
restore and maintain good relationships
among family and friends. Ho'oponopono is a conference where
relationships are "set right" trough prayer,
discussion,confession,repentance, and mutual restitution and
forgiveness.
You have posted some new age BS! As monica pointed out appropriation
of another's spirituality is not good.
This IS Alt Native! not alt wannabe, there is a difference.

This was an interesting read. I flirted with something along the
lines of this at one point in my life, trying to take full
responsibility for everything that happened in my life and giving full
responsibility to other people for what happened in theirs. It gave
me a huge headache!

It’s an intriguing idea, but IMO, it’s untenable. Accepting personal
responsibility for one's actions is a good thing, and the only way
real growth can occur. I AM responsible for what I PERSONALLY say and
do. Other people may influence me, but I choose. Circumstances occur
that are beyond my control (or at least, I’m not aware of choosing
them at the Lifeplan meeting.) I still get to choose how to react to
my circumstances. "Become the change you want to see." That IS the
only place to start.

But this theory is the other extreme of the pendulum swing, opposite
the “Nothing is MY fault! You can’t blame ME! _______ made me this
way! It’s all THEIR fault!” perpetual victim stance. Extremes by
very definition cannot be in balance.

Let’s consider an all-too-common situation: child abuse. This theory
would actually make a child who is systematically raped or otherwise
abused responsible for the abuse. The child would have to apologize
for whatever it was inside him/her that caused the abuser to attack in
order to make it stop. I don’t really think a four-year-old child is
responsible for creating that reality through wrong thinking. I think
soul-twisted adults made that choice for them.

As for the handicapped children and the criminally insane he claims
changed because HE accepted responsibility and apologized, I’d like to
see the data. How much did they change? Did the blind see and the
lame walk? Were brain chemistries balanced? Or did he simply change
his perceptions and the way he interacted with them, which might have
caused *some* changes in the way some of them interacted with him?

He says that actually therapists create reality with their patients,
and the therapists need to apologize for that. Does that “cure” the
patient? Or is it the patient accepting responsibility for his mental
disease and apologizing for it that does that? If they don’t both
accept and apologize, do their realities split into parallel
universes, one in which the doctor/client relationship continues, and
one in which all is resolved?

Pragmatically speaking, if this worked, all the people in the “helping
professions” could apologize themselves right out of a job. I’m all
for that! We could cure all diseases and physical and mental defects
post haste!

But again, I’m stuck on the logistics. The author seems to claim that
nothing bad happens in his life because he is constantly engaged in
this process. Really? He can guarantee none of his loved ones will
suffer or die (which would surely be a “problem” in his life) because
he engages in this process?

The psychopath stalking with his weapons is really perfect? It is not
him who is crazy/angry, but just an unknown memory? And the author
can keep this psychopath from targeting him or his family by accepting
responsibility and apologizing for whatever unknown memory in his
psyche might bring this man into his life—and he can do that in spite
of the psychopath’s own plans? How does that work?

If I am causing everything in my life to happen, and everyone else
that I interact with is causing everything in their lives to happen,
it seems to me there are going to be conflicts. Say someone runs a
red light and is heading toward me at full speed. If I can react
quickly enough to accept responsibility and apologize, can I prevent
the accident a microsecond before the crash, even though the other
person is still running the red light and has no plans to accept the
blame (if he lives through it?)

How about the Indians? Did they call Columbus and smallpox blankets
to themselves, and can they heal the results by accepting
responsibility and apologizing for whatever it is inside them that
created that reality?

I don’t think so. Granted there is a LOT I don’t understand about how
the universe works. I could be completely wrong, and he could be
right. But even on a very small scale, if everyone who wades all the
way through that article and thinks about it apologizes for whatever
it was inside themselves that drew the article to alt.native, I really
don’t expect it to disappear.

Like so many other things, I think it’s basically a good idea, taken
to illogical extremes by the egocentric human species. We want to
believe we can personally control everything. It’s scary to admit,
but IMO we just aren’t that powerful.

But maybe if I accept responsibility for that limiting attitude and
apologize for whatever it is inside me that is causing me to err, I
could become a Master of the Universe! But so would everyone else.
Do I really want 6 billion other Masters in my universe trying to out-
think my idea of perfection with theirs? Hmm… Time for some
aspirin. I apologize for having this headache. ;-)

be careful Lisa...you saw what they did to Wolfies Beloved, simply
because she wouldn't kowTow to monica...

this one is another of her pets...

i'd make sure your family is aware of any developments...

their prayers will help keep you and they safe...

WOPILA!

Much Aloha!
Where is that fraud guardian?
where is the outrage from monica on full on appropriation of Hawaiian
Language.
It's BS! lissy tool? please don't post this new age crap on Alt
Native. What would Anna Mae say?
If you are a "friend" than please take the time to research before you
post to Alt Native.
Monica invited these none natives here to Alt Native and now look what
they post!
BS!
We live on the Island of powerful prayer our family is indeed well
thought of and in the hearts
of many. This is where all the priests from the other Islands were
sent to learn their prayers simply
put. Ignorant use of even the word ho'ponopono is not advised. Alt
Native deserves better than being turned
into a laughing stock and a dark corner of the deranged.
Monica and her following have blood on their hands and still are
trolling for more. The archives show the few short frenzied
weeks until a man killed himself. I am sure he would still be alive
today but for Monica and her following. some accomplishment
huh? and what? how long were they silent? to reflect on their actions.
They harassed an old woman until her man killed himself
and now still troll for more
blood! some kind of life! Anna Mae would be so proud?
Thank you for all who are praying for good. We all need some good
about now! Focus on the real issues and pray with all your might
our people stop killing themselves. One more NDN killed himself god
damn it and it was as usual on alt native for monica and her
followers.
Don't waist your time trying to pray some funky ugly foul on me or
mine you ugly doer's you. You have offended enough god's I almost feel
sorry
for yous.
Show no mercy to those who have done harm to the good people here at
Alt Native.
All who are praying we we send Much Aloha!

But then traditional religion isn't very effective is it?

Does anyone here practice a traditional religion be it Christianity or
Native? Is it working for you?

There are a lot of things Monica and I disagree on. It's not a
condition of our friendship.

It is NOT something to discuss online. lizzy tool please start another
thread. this one is insulting Hawaiians!

Actually it's posted on Joy Harjo's site. She is a Native American
poet and musician.
http://joyharjo.blogspot.com/2006/10/hooponopono.html

It struck me because somewhere I had read a similar story many years
ago. Since I have only read a very few Native American books that
aren't poetry or novels...I'm going to take a wild guess that it was
Vine Deloria....a story about an Indian whose brother was killed and
he wanted revenge. His father or uncle told him that he had to make
him his brother...they gave the Indian who had killed their family
member the best and finest of what they had....apparently as a result
of kindness he honored them by becoming the best brother.

Since I don't remember the source...it could be a tale made up by some
white person...

Guardian,
There may be some faux natives about!

In view of <http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-genocide>,
was that remark intended to be *funny*?

If so, it strikes me as being in incredibly bad taste
and poor judgment.

"Guardian" has just recently harassed a 70-year-old
woman relentlessly, even in her time of grief, and
now you suggest it's time to add *another* victim?

I can't begin to imagine how heartless.......

[snip]

Now, sending Guardian after *Johnny Depp*....
*that*'s funny. Let her wear herself out against
*his* security, bashbying her head on *that* wall!

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/802eafd702caf365

Truly, lizzy tool if you really cared about Natives you would take
sound advice and end
this thread.
People come here thinking old ways are in the past and they can take
rocks back home with
them. Even after they have been warned to leave the rocks, they take
one home with them only
to suffer bad luck. Some bring back the rocks and put them right back
where they found it. Others
mail the rocks back begging the postmaster to put it back and break
the bad luck.
This is Alt Native, I am Native my husband is native my children are
native my son in law is native my
ex son in law is native and my grandchildren are native. I am also
Hani Hawaiian and live on the most Hawaiian
Islands. Hawaiian don't take kindly to misuse of the language and
culture. Your Dr Lee makes bucks off of
using Hawaiians, he came here and exploited the people and left with a
book. Like I said do your research BEFORE

You and your friends have blood on your hands from your last feeding
frenzy! what still hungry? addicted already?

You are Right Lisa...

the trouble with folks ,like monica is...they go out and mislead
people to believe that's how "Natives" are...

then these IDIOTS come around us and expect the same level of
stupidity...

it's THEFT what this Dr. Lee is doing...

we know it...and they don't care...

they are HUNGRY...

I wish I knew how to change the name of the thread! lizzy tool is too
ignorant to
understand the level insult she has employed. And to use a peace
making ceremony
to cause friction here at Alt Native is not at all bright. Makes
Monica look even more of
a foolish hypocrite and her friends to be frauds. Good friends of ours
either were suing
this Dr Lee or had sued him for plagiarism. I cannot remember the
story off hand but I will
make it a point to go visit. It is people like Dr Lee who make people
like Joy Harjo look foolish
I am sorry to say.I beg she do some homework and write about it,
Hawaiians need help exposing
predators who feed off even the well educated. Id like to invite Ms
Harjo to Molokai and introduce her
to people who have directly been harmed by Dr Lee. These are fierce
protectors of all things Hawaiian
and would be more than happy to educate Ms Harjo and show her much
Aloha.

It is not hard to find the correct use of Ho'oponopono and what it
means to be correct in the use.
Too busy picking at their scabs to do anything healthy? If they are
going to claim to be friends of
NDNS they best be showing even the slightest respect. Yah think?
Vultures are always hungery.

Done.

For future reference (in Google Groups), above your text entry field:

" Add Cc | Add Followup-to | Edit Subject "

click on "Edit Subject" and edit accordingly.

I thought Monica J. Charles had ordained from On High that
only the continental 49 states' Native Americans were Human
and deserved any respect for their cultures and traditions?

Or was it just the contiguous 48 states? Are Inuit fair game?

Or... wait... it's fair to steal the traditions of all the
tribes who aren't federally registered & treatied just now,
so <http://tinyurl.com/unrecognized-tribes> are fair game too!

hi culture vulture lisa dillon. I saw Nancy at the funeral. She asked
me if you were still talking trash on the internet. I saw Misty too.
Told her the same. Of course that looney white woman is still
pretending to be Indian. Now she's pretending to be Hawaiian.

On Jul 25, 11:08 am, "blutur...@gmail.com" <blutur...@gmail.com>

<http://tinyurl.com/malica-charnel>

On Jul 25, 7:34 pm, Malica Charnel <yanowis @ gmail.com> wrote:

... nothing worth reading. But then, it never was.

Then help expose them. I did as you suggested and looked for websites
with people who have been harmed by Dr. Len. Couldn't find them but I
don't know what to look for. Went back 20 pages...even looked it up on
Snopes...nothing.

All you have offered are hate and insults...

An article does not make for stealing ceremonies or religion. Is it
your opinion that no one should ever read or learn about one another?
I do not concern myself with ceremonies in the slightest. I do not
join groups or attend church I simply look for ideas and concepts to
incorporate into my life to make it less turbulent.

I don't own any rocks from Hawaii....however my mother is a rockhound
she might. I assume that you own no jewelry yourself?

Is it a requirement on a discussion group to vet articles before
posting them?

It's not always about the "innocent" people (like Guardian's so-called
anglo pagans) who buy the books, get taken by 'scammers' or even
(necessarily) whether what is said in those books is true. It is a
commercial 'product' and Dr. Len is personally profiting from a
'piece' of a People's ancient traditions, and they aren't his People.
It certainly isn't enough (he was only there how many years?) to
represent thousands of years of cultural wisdom. So what about *those*
people? Oops, i guess you forgot about them.

What distinguishes Dr. Len from any other 'faux Indian' or person of
non-indigenous heritage claiming rightfully-obtained native spiritual
knowledge for sale?

Which is it? Who's liable? Only whites? You, Monica and Guardian are
all so self-contradictory, it's ridiculous.

I don't know much about Joy Harjo, and so i sure don't know her
politics. But you threw out her name as if to give credence to posting
Dr. Len's information. I prefer to check things out for myself. It
seems to me there is a pretty big schism here between those who are
actively *pursued* for appropriation of Indian Art and Culture and
those who are left alone.

It does if it presumes to teach people how to HOLD the ceremonies
and PRACTICE the religion, as Len's works do. That's like "How to
Make Your Own Kachina" or "How to Hold Your Own Sundance", right?

Remember how bad a problem this has been?

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/indians-complain-of-religious-and-cultural-theft.html

Short form: <http://tinyurl.com/nyt-cultural-theft>

And while *you* may not see that as offensive, others do. Example:

"The non-Indian public does not have the right to examine, interpret,
or
present the beliefs, functions, and duties of the secret medicine
societies
of the Haudenosaunee. The sovereign responsibility of the
Haudenosaunee
over their spiritual duties must be respected...."

<http://www.peace4turtleisland.org/pages/maskpolicy.htm>

You seem to think everything is open for examination, everything is
"up for grabs". But to some peoples "sacred" means "not to be
grabbed",
"not to be touched", not even to be looked at except on holy occasions
or by those designated to the task. You would not let the whole world
troop through your home, your bedroom, your private things, so why do
you demand the right to rummage through the *sacred* things of others?

aw Shut da Fuck Up N go BACK to yer Clog,...i meanz blog...

DIPSHIT!

me Know ya cain't hang here...

in spite o wha yer Monkee Jefe toldya...

Way too much crank.

The lesson just has to be over your head now doesn't it. And still you
have the awedacity
to insult Hawaiians.
Truth in Education means something to most people. You can settle for
lies and culture theft
and not concern yourself with perpetuating fraud. You may think it is
safe to play with ceremony you
know nothing about but ignorance will not save you. Do you know any
Hawaiians in real life?
I didn't think so, otherwise you would not has posted a fake
translation of what is sacred.
I don't know a single none Hawaiian here in these Islands. I am Hani
Hawaiian, my son in law is 3/4's
Hawaiian and 3 of my mo'opuna are almost half Hawaiian, I live on "the
most Hawaiian Island." The Piko
of the Hawaiian Islands. The Kuhuna and Kupuna in our family do not
appreciate miss use of what is sacred
to Hawaiians. This Island's people are known for their fierce
protection of all things Hawaiian. My friend and
mentor Janet McCloud sent me here with Medicine bundles to go out on
the funeral Canoe of her good friend.
Now lizzy tool, that is a great woman you really should study up on.
She certainly was no fool as Monica would
have to believe in order for me to be all the lovely things she posts
here on Alt Native. Monica has been warned NOT
to use Janet or her family in her sick vengeance towards me. Nancy can
be reached at Puyallup Tribal office. Truly, I
doubt she will appreciate the fact Monica ripped her son's efforts
here on Alt Native with " Higher Grounds of Struggle
Savage Family"! I don't think I have ever mentioned, our kids are
close and keep in touch regularly. We hope one day
to have Savage Family come here to Molokai it would be jam and jelly
good fun. You can find Savage Family on youtube
you can google Sapa Dawn to learn what a real warrior woman made
happen and inspired.
Lizzy tool, you say you care about and respect natives? than don't be
toying with what is sacred people get hurt playing
with what they have so little knowledge of. You are relying on the
internet as your sacred guide? take a little of this and a little of
that? as long as it sounds good? Have you read anything from
Hawaiians? I suggest you read everything by Mary Pukui.
First look up Aloha then Ho'oponopono.
This is Alt Native not Alt play Native. At the moment Alt Native is
not a place I invite people to read and post at any longer you and
your friends
have blood on your hands and are clearly wanting more. You were asked
to stop posting the thread under "ho'oponopono" and not only refused
but took the time to change the thread name back after someone else
had changed it. Your a hypocrite and a fool to post that word trying
your damnd'st
to pick a fight. Can you really be so stupid? amazing. lizzy tool, I
feel sorry for you when the day comes monica hates
your guts. It will come out of left feild so fast and just keep coming
I just hope you don't harm yourself of anyone else than start claiming
collateral damage. Three people have helped me write this today. All
wondered just what in the world you are posting crap on a site you
know so little about and are so eager to fuck with their spirituality
"just to get a rise"...out of me? poor thing you.

right lying hypocrite is an understatement.

Dear heart, in lizzy's defense, it was probably not deliberate.

The thread title is picked up from whichever post you *reply* to.

When lizzy *replied* to your previous post with the old title,
her reply picked up the old title too, not the new title which
was on *my* post. To change the thread title, ***you also***
must "Edit Title" on your post any time the old title comes up,
as I am doing right now. Then when she replies to *your* post,
she will pick up your new title, and all should work from there.

All right?

Aloha!

Monica brought the very thing she preaches to hate on to Alt Native
out of her
blind rage against me. Total dissreguard for Hawaiian people and
culture purely
because of her blind hate for me. I am a well respected woman here
because of
my love for this Island and it's People. To ignore requests for
respect of the Hawaiian
Language just because monica hates my guts is astounding.
People have been killed or put in prison for preserving
and carrying on our Indigenous Spirituality. It is widely known the
Internet is NOT the place
to discuss or practice our Spirituality. People playing with words
they don't have a
clue the meanings or who uses them and why! it is dangerous and
monica knows that or should.
Why would she not correct her friend lizzy tool? What kind of friend
does that?
Ignoring the obvious claiming naivete or ignorants just will not cut
it here not ever. Monica will sacrifice
protocols and allow none natives to use and abuse what is still used
today. In our Hawaiian homes,churches
schools and work places for mediation in peace making. We strive to
live "Pono" in every aspect of our lives
This Dr Lee person has harmed many people, he made many promises to
bring help for our people dieing of
diabetes. He drove these people to hope! for nothing. The tears I saw
from a Kupuna telling me about that man
ten years ago are still real today.
lizzy tool, is it really so important to you to use the word
ho'oponopono you are willing to put yourself at risk talking
about things you know nothing about. You are looking like your own
worst enemy in your zealot for pleasing your new
friend. IF you are looking for peace, try a little bit respect.

Unfortunately, when I Google that word and "Dr. Len" I find
very many sites teaching it, and many about books and seminars,
so lizzy has many bad examples to encourage her, just like all
the Castenada-Don-Juan/Lynn-Andrews "Armchair Shamanism" sites.

It doesn't make what she's doing any *better*, it just means
she's been on the receiving end of a lot more volume of pages
supporting the hyped flashy New Age-y version than any oral
tradition among Islanders would put on the Web to dazzle her.

What were all you folks doing dancing and singing when you
should have been HTMLing and JPG/GIFing webpages instead?

Don't you know it was your *obligation* to spill your guts
onto the Web for people like lizzy, otherwise they could
just come and take whatever they wanted from you anyway?

Did you think you had the right to *privacy* or something?

To preserve a sense of sacred space, of reserve, of holiness?

Well, now you should know better. Malica Charnel's taught you.

<http://tinyurl.com/malica-charnel-thread>

All "SASSER'S" ever offer!

There in lies the secret, GOTTA BUY THEIR BOOK, everyone else is a LIAR!!!!!!!

How about Wiccans, telling Gaelic's all about� Belting.
�

Go back and eat Deco out some more "Anal Retentive" White Boy of the "Weather
Underground"..
�
�
�

Azure, please do try to keep track. Blue Turtle has asked that Lizzy
refrain from an act of religious and cultural disrespect (theft), by
not using a Hawaiian religious term reserved for Hawaiian religious
purposes, here on the Internet, where native Hawaiians don't use it.

That's like "Please don't make spitballs out of consecrated Host."

The "hate and insult" is not in making that request.

The "hate and insult" is in the behavior being asked to *stop*.

Clearer now?

Thank you for giving the short answer. I hide my disdain well these
days
otherwise, Id make things crystal clear to the point there would be no
question.
Much Aloha to you again for seeing who's hate'n who and why they are
insulting.

Happy to help, dear heart. I hope some of this finally
sank through to Lizzy, since she seems to have paused.

I'm leaving the title at a short "Culture Vultures" now.

Aloha, Aroha, Alofa!

>  BS! Talk about appropriation of Spirituality!
> Please research well before posting to Alt Native.
> Ho'oponopono is Hawaiian. Ho'oponopono it to set right, to correct
> restore and maintain good relationships
> among family and friends. Ho'oponopono is a conference where
> relationships are "set right" trough prayer,
> discussion,confession,repentance, and mutual restitution and
> forgiveness.
> You have posted some new age BS! As monica pointed out appropriation
> of another's spirituality is not good.
> This IS Alt Native! not alt wannabe, there is a difference.

And *YOU*, Malica Charnel, are a shameless hypocrite!

You demand respect for your own People's spiritual traditions,
but you *give* no respect to other people's spiritual traditions.

You call those who disrespect yours "spiritually dead" --
but then you also must be spiritually dead, and for years.

You are a Corpse Woman Walking, leaving fat worms in your tracks.

<http://tinyurl.com/malica-charnel-thread>

>  Much Aloha!
> Where is that fraud guardian?

I am right here, watching yet another "instant Indian just add
intercourse" pretend she is an expert on Indigenous Hawaiians because
she is getting porked by one. What is it with you nut jobs that makes
you think you are qualified to speak for Indian people just because
you spread your legs for one?

fer all you folks out there Withessing this, her name is betsy ashby,
and has posted all of her info in her archives...

this is the one who stated that ray was a question her and her people
were working on, and also the one who posted personal info on Ray,
Online...

many others attest to the twists and turns of her ways...amazingly
enough...just like monica charles...

Your Prayers and words offline are in order...

Aho!

Why don't you go there and find out!!!! I have spoken with Lisa on the
phone before; she is a *real* human being! Her happy family could give
you some lessons on RESPECT. I would just love to see you go to that
island and get some actual come-uppance for your disrespectful
behavior toward a mother and grandmother who never does anything but
spend her time making life better for all those around her, children,
adults, natives and non-natives alike. You should be ashamed of
yourself for speaking to a *member* of a native island family in such
a way, someone who has done no one a bit of harm, but of course you
are not. Who cares what her native blood relations think or feel about
the way you are treating her, eh??? To see she has become a target of
*evil* because of disagreeing with Monica YEARS ago is enough to fill
anyone with total disgust. You and Monica are so much alike, i can
hardly believe you weren't separated at birth.

...and you will get back whatever you send, Good OR Bad... amplified
considerably. :-)

You mean like she, "Runningwolf" and you are getting your "come-
uppance" for your disrespectful behavior on-line?

Yawl do not like being treated the way you treat others do you? That
should tell you something.

Well, that's just it. I don't treat others that way. Nor do i harrass
and pursue people online and make denigrating racist remarks. Nor do i
disrespect that this is a 'discussion' group by refusing to talk about
issues and resorting instead to calling Indian women maggots and
whores. I have never in my life claimed that people of any race were
not human beings. And of course... i do not try to 'anhilate' people,
neither through 'overt' means nor through covert 'magickal' means.

So yes, every time "yawl" post something here, it "tells me
something".

On Jul 28, 1:33 pm, Guardian <guardian @ OutoftheDark.com> wrote:

> [...] you are getting your "come-uppance" for
> your disrespectful behavior on-line [...]

You misunderstand the situation.

The request has been made, not for respect to *bluturtle*,
but for respect to *the Hawaiian People*, to refrain from
using sacred language which they themselves would not put
on the Internet, and which Dr. Len had "appropriated" and
popularized without their permission -- cultural theft as
much as replicating kachinas or medicine masks. So you're
resuming use of that sacred word, insulting Hawaiians and
committing cultural theft, as "come-uppance" to people on
the newsgroup? Why, that's downright WHITE of you, Betsy!

[Title changed again, in respect to the Hawaiian People.]

That Betsy's a Virginian? <http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-genocide>

You most certainly do...or we would be having a respectful
conversation right now. Donna, I prefer to let others make the rules,
then beat them at their own game.... mainly because I learn more that
way :-)

Donna's been straightforward on "the rules" she herself follows:

So why can't *you* follow them, Betsy?

Oops, you *accidently* snipped something and left a line dangling out
of context!

"...Nor do i harrass and pursue people online and make denigrating

covert 'magickal' means...." - as said by myself.

And - i most certainly do not.

Haha... no, we would not be having a "respectful conversation" - and
btw, that is some pretty convoluted logic you have going on there.

About *beating* people? Knock yerself out, Betsy.

On Jul 28, 5:52 pm, oldwifetale <oldwifet...@yahoo.com> wrote --

Thank You fer yer Excellent DEMONstrayshun o mindset...

inyer whirl it allah bout U...sorry, me no tink dat way...me co Giva
SHIT bout U sept to nowlidge YOU is seriously E-V-I-l...no matta wha
ya say...

AxeUWally... given wha me seenya DooDoo to Ray, i am concerned, given
monica charles sic'd you on Lisa and youz everdently intendin to Act
on it now...i fer one intend to send all Prayers of protection frum
You, betsy ashby and yer incredibly E-V-I-L wayz...

So jizt...GitDaFuckOff!

we all are watching YOU...

http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-disrespecter

or

http://tinyurl.com/guardian-rulebreaker

http://tinyurl.com/guardian-disrespecter

Whichever one is easiest to remember.

They all go to the same place.

Then there are...

http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby

http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-1

http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-2

http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-genocide

... and these are all different!

For the sake of keeping to have to wade through the piles of Shyt
Ashby posts can someone please tell me the name of the Hawaiian family
she is disrespecting?

The Hawaiian *People*, OldCrow, by bringing up again the old title
that had been dropped -- the sacred word they *don't use on the Net*.

<http://tinyurl.com/guardian-insults-hawaiians>

I am called ugly names because I ask simply for respect not for
me but out of respect for all things Hawaiian. If I were free to
discuss
the level of insult monica and her following have made. It is no small
thing to insult a man so loved and respected as my Fisherman. People
around the world pray many blessings upon our family for the kind of
people
we are. To make insults under the title of Ho'oponopono defies logic
and makes
me wonder if Monica ever was a Smokehouse Dancer. There are protocols
that require
you have a level of respect for your neighbors monica just does not
resemble.
If we were as monica says than why am I asked to speak up for various
issues concerning
the people of this Island. I would NEVER have been allowed at Sapa
Dawn period! countless
years my family learned from our people brought to Sapa Dawn from
around the country.
We come from peace making people and work hard to honor all the
ancestors who prayed
for us seven generations ago. I did not ask to be Hani Hawaiian I was
chosen. A little research
will find just how much that means. Monica and her followers are
playing with people they know
so little of. They have blood on their hands and darkness all around
them and strive to do harm on
a daily basis here on Alt Native. I live a Pono life and am blessed
everyday with the results of that.
I would not wish a pissed off Hawaiian onto anyone as specialy an
ancient one, it is not a very wise.
We do our best to honor where we come from and the people who have
brought us this this far in life.
monica and her friend besty obviously need to find men of their very
own to focus their energies upon.
They show the classic signs of spinsters, hence their bitter ways poor
slobs.

As do I. And I hope these troubles will now stop.

Aloha, Aroha, Alofa!

My Auntie just left, she spent the week end at Kalaupapa. In Nov a
delegation
from the Vatican is coming to bless the Settlement. Auntie is the most
Eldest
Hula Alaka'i that is the Hula Kumu's closest assistant. She has danced
hula for
over fifty years. Most of those years she has danced for my Hanai
Auntie. She
has lived on this Island most of her life raised by her Grandmother.
Every district
I have ever lived here has Elders who come introduce themselves to
offer and
encourage Aloha. They educate people new to the district no matter how
long they
have lived on the other end of the Island. My Aunties know most
everything about
every district and are greatly respected inter island.
"These woman here daring to put down Hawaiians! better know people
were killed
or put in jail speaking the Language they ARE abusing!" "Our children
learn Hawaiian
before English here!" Because people fought lived and died for the
right to do so. The fact
these woman target me of all people to hate upon is baffling to many.
I have a life so filled
with Aloha it is overwhelming and keeps me humble with gratitude. No
one understands how
monica can heap the kind hatred she has for me. To recruit people
ignorant in our cultures
with the pure intention to do harm not just on me or mine but anyone
here on Alt Native. Is
not wise.
Who do those women serve with their mission of hate upon me or Wolfie
or anyone else they have
targeted here on Alt Native? Who does it entertain? Who does it
satisfy when Alt Native does not work?
monica and her guardian have ignored lizzy tool's original post and
refuse to not only charge their Dr Lee
of fraud and culture theft. They further insult Hawaiians by
continuing to Post under "Ho'oponopono".
How they are treating Hawaiians goes against everything they *work*
for according to the archives here
at Alt Native.

Yeah, that would be nice since all I have seen is a white woman
speaking for Hawaiians :-0

You are called ugly names because you call other people ugly names.
You get no respect because you give none. Catching on yet?

What ugly names is bluturtle calling others? She has been asking
only that a Hawaiian sacred word not be bandied about here on the
Net. Clearly that is not for her personal or private benefit, how
could it be? That can only serve to respect Hawaiian culture as a
whole -- or disrespect it as a whole, by refusal -- not her alone.

<http://tinyurl.com/guardian-insults-hawaiians>

See <http://tinyurl.com/guardian-insults-hawaiians>

Now that you mention the word "fraud" would you like to try and
explain how you are posting from a UU dial-up in ARIZONA when you
claim to be in Hawaii?

Now I wonder who you REALLY are? Hmmmmm, who else do we know who
posts from Arizona and has not updated his/her browser in years?

ROFLMAO, geeeezzz you mutts are DUMB DUMB DUMB!

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/15fced6681d470eb?hl=en&dmode=source

IP Address 63.16.73.7
Host 1Cust2311.an2.lax33.da.uu.net
Location US, United States
City Camp Verde, AZ 86322
Organization UUNET Technologies

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/aaa41ea1df221cd5?hl=en&dmode=source

IP Address 63.16.65.132
Host 1Cust388.an2.lax33.da.uu.net
Location US, United States
City Mesa, AZ -

Please, nobody explain TELNET or her brain will explode.

<http://tinyurl.com/bashby2>

So to follow your own sense of warped reasoning then dumazz then why
do yo get the impression that you as a White "Woman"( debatable) have
the right to speak for Native People after you have been told
repeatedly on numerous forums to stay out of Native affairs ad
basically STFU ? Oh thats right, You don't have to follow the set of
standards you are so quick to impose on everyone else.

That is an outright lie. What ugly names did she call monica to
repeatedly get called a "hare-lipped whore" by her? What ugly names
did she call anyone to be told repeatedly that she is a maggot and not
human because she has white blood?

And who are you to be talking about giving people respect? You give
none even to the dead. Now you need another safe target to feed your
need. Time to look into the name monica gave you. Another elderly
lady that won't give you any problems realtime.

Yes, everyone is catching on, thank you.

Oh good gawd here we go again. "Proof" from someone who does not
understand the difference between a personal IP and a host IP. Oh,
the agony of being called dumb (sorry, DUMB DUMB DUMB) by this one.
*rolling my eyes*

Shouldn't leave that lie of a title up either. Of course there will
now be many more coming about Lisa, who has apparently been chosen as
the new bandaid to sooth betsy's old wounds. And since only HER pain
matters, we're not supposed to object to whatever she decides to do or
who she decides to do it to. Perhaps an inside informant will even
feed her "helpful" information to aid her noble cause. But it will
not work.

Bullshit. That is a complete fabrication.

> Perhaps an inside informant

-- with 34 years' experience! --

Gee, that's funny - i talked to her on the phone a few weeks ago, and
the number was definitely coming from the Hawaiian Islands!!!!

Reminds me of one very young lady many years ago who took great
offense at hearing Helen Keller termed "blind, deaf, and dumb"
-- because "actually she was very intelligent." Those were the
days before Political Correctness, but you can see how PC came.

What we need is a good intensive training session on proxies.

monica will no doubt be devastated to find out that Lisa is not really
one of the ubiquitous blue-eyed blonde she-devils. *LOL* monica must
feel really embarrassed to have been so completely fooled that she
threw a tantrum about Lisa speaking at the Hawaii State Capitol on
behalf of an early childhood program not exclusively for native
children. And monica will probably feel very silly for all the time
she has spend yelling, "You are WHIIIIIIITE!! You are a hare-lipped
whore! You are a maggot! My brother should never have let you whites
into the lodge..." And on and on.

I mean, monica has invested TONS of time and energy contending with
Lisa. And all this time, it was really Wolfie, posting from Arizona!
Who knew? It MUST be true...because betsy says it is so! And betsy
is (as she has told us more than once) brilliant and clever and a
skilled investigator with an eidetic memory who cannot be fooled and
who beats the wretches at their own game. She posts only FACTS, not
suppositions or wishful guesses--and certainly not mistakes.

Poor monica, to be so completely duped. Go figure!

Why? betsy has it all figured out. People who question her methods
or motivation are obviously all just sock puppets of the one person in
the world who is stupid enough to oppose her. And apparently that one
person is sitting in Kingman, AZ, using her little pension check to
spin a vast and complex web of deceit and treachery. 'Cause, you
know, it's, like, fun to keep betsy on a wild goose chase! What else
is there to do out there in the desert?

Man, a fiction writer trying to sell this would be laughed out the
door. But we're all supposed to have IQ's low enough to believe it.
I'm not completely sure, 'cause I'm so DUMB DUMB DUMB, but I think
we've been insulted and stuff. *sniff* ;-p

NorahChristine Ernst Stavro Blofeld RunningWolf, head of SPECTRE....

... petting ze white Persian cat while stroking ze controls....

Wait, wait, there's the stuff of big movies here....

I know, all of this is just NUTZ. I know for a fact that Lisa is
living where she says she's living. She's a real person, not some sock
puppet. She also happens to be upbeat, positive, funny and warm in
'voice' communication, and i wish she was able to write here more.

And of course Betsy just goes *off* on the assumption that Lisa is a
'white woman' and has no right to speak about her own family's
traditions because Monica says so. Monica provided that she was an
'authentic' Indian and that makes her an automatic 'truth-teller'.

And they think *we* are deluded???

It is all explained very easily. Lisa's swift travel back and forth
from Hawaii to Arizona, her blonde hair and blue eyes -- she is in
fact the ghost of Marilyn Monroe, and travels over the wires, see?

Malica's poor brother just couldn't *resist*. Who could blame him?

No wonder Malica is jealous, having no spirit left in her at all.

Wait till she finds out why Elvis sang of Hawaii before he died...

You know, I'm half serious. White or not, one thing about both
Norma Jean and Elvis, they were both loving people; sad lives,
but I never heard that they liked hurting anyone. They'd make
good na'aumakua, not to be feared if they walked on land again.

Malica, now, if Malica hits deep open seawater, she's *chum*.

There won't be many "friendly shark" legends in her area,
and the feelings are mutual, am I right? What a difference.

LOL! monica's guardian getting it all wrong again! LOL it's news to me
and all of
my family and friends! Me in Arizona? how interesting. Why would I
testify before
Hawaii State Legislature on Bill 791 if I lived in AZ. It should be
available to read at Hawaii State
online. LOL monica really picked a winner this time in her *guardian*.
She be too damned
lazy to look at Alt Native archives LOL. Not too bright that one
OOOOOO now she wonders
who I REALLY am! OOOOOOOOO LOL. YES! I live in PARADISE! AND I LOVE
IT!
it is obvious monica and her followers have NEVER experience PARADISE!
poor
slobs are too busy sitting on their flabby's telling lies on good
people day in and day out.
Reaping what they sow? The archives are filled with Monica's
influence, it is not pretty certainly
not healthy. A sad reflection of monica's hard work and design. A
woman so alone and miserable in
real life she is so needy of attention, even negative attention is
better than none at all. Day in and out
for how many years now monica has posted? and never once had a
pleasant year? It says something
about a persons character if day in and day out for years can only be
ugly and hate filled.
I have never harassed anyone, I have never wished harm on on anyone,
never stalked anyone,
never investigated anyone, never drove anyone to suicide all quite the
opposite. The archives here
on Alt Native reflect. I cannot wrap my head around those who immerse
themselves in such hate and ugly.
It is no wonder they are poor miserable souls, monica and her
followers. You do get what you give.
It's funny, this Island has the say who can live here or not. She must
love me, is all I can say.
Arizona? LOL what next? LOL
Aloha.

> Aloha.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

you really must drop in for coffee one morning, lisa. lol

LOL Aloha Dear LOL
can you believe this one. Id love to have coffee with you, thank you
for the invitation. Id love
to enjoy your painted sky's and the beauty of the desert sipping
coffee with you.
Much Aloha!

I commend your reply and I for one are in full agreement. I have seen
Ashby try to destroy the reputation of some good friends of mine ,a
whole family here and in her so called Pagan site . Whatever befalls
these two lowlifes is nothing short of what they richly deserve. At
the least they can see that their bullshyt falls on deaf ears and
there are people here far too intelligent to be taken in by their
ridiculous drivel. Sooner enough they will both wither on the vine
like bad grapes.

You are lying again minnow mind. I have NEVER been told to "stay
out of Indian affairs" by a real Indian ....NEVER...mainly because I
am not involved in "Indian Affairs" at all.

So far only ONE real Indian has introduced herself on this forum....
JUST ONE. It also appears that "Flint Carrier" is accepted as being
Indian by other Indians....I think... but to be frank, I can not
understand a word he writes. He appears to be either drunk or stoned
when he posts, and half the time I can not tell if he is trying to
insult me, or hit on me? It seems he has invented his own language, a
form of "Creep Speak" and he is just not interesting enough to take
the time to try and translate. Unlike the other white women here who
hang on his every word, I have no interest in ingratiating myself to
an Indian man....or woman for that matter. This is the simple fact
that you Faux Indians just can not get past. I do not give a fat
rat's behind if Indians or anyone else approve of what I am doing
within Anglo Culture. Your average Indian is as knowledgeable of the
inner workings of the Cyberverse as I am of the internal functions of
an Indian Tribe/Nation.....which is to say, not at all.

Of course there may be other real Indians here, but there is simply
no way to tell on the net without validating identity in meatspace.
Regardless, what do real Indians have to do with my activities? I am
a white woman confronting white people who defraud other white
people....so how is this an "Indian Affair?" Indians do not have any
right to tell me what do with Anglo Culture (in this case, the
Cyberverse) anymore than I have a right to tell Indians what to do in
their respective Cultures.

Now why do you not come clean and tell people that YOU are a white
person who logged on specifically to defend a pack of white people who
pretended to be Indians in Cherokee, NC. We exposed them for the
fakes they are, and they were run out of town on a rail so to speak.
I know who you are and what you are doing, and you will eventually
answer for your lies too.

Although I am very much against the theft and sale of ceremony, and
the bastardization of other's belief systems, I am also one who feels
that there are universal truths.
A dear friend sent me a book written by a Tibetan monk named Rimpoche
Nawang Gehlak.
The book is "Good Life, Good Death".
I have found great comfort there, and methods of settlement of my
emotions and attachments.
I would heartily recommend this book to those who have such hate in
their hearts that they must cause others pain to assuage that hatred.
Well, I would recommend this book to anyone.
Especially the chapter, "Ego and Compassion".
Unfortunately, those who have carried such hatred, and insist on
passing it forward, probably won't read it, nor would they be able to
absorb the teachings found there.
Instead, they will carry the vendetta against those in their pasts to
those who they think are helpless and weak.
Thinking that attacking a dead man, and two old crippled women will
show what "Warriors" they are.
Never understanding they are displaying for all the world to see their
own weak foolishness and cowardliness.
.

Ahem - nice going, Xena. I'll bet you have a secret copy of "How to
Win Friends and Influence People".

I do not speak for Monica, I was speaking only for MYSELF ...although
I realize this is a concept you do not understand. "Bluturtle" called
me a "fraud" and I replied by calling her a fraud, much more
creatively I might add. Show me where I said one word to her...or
about her, until she insulted me?

She lied about me, so I told the truth about her. Catching on yet
Amoeba mind?

I have not posted the "Runningwolf/James" website because I am not
100% sure that someone did not die YET. As I said, I think this is
just another case of CyberMunching since the alleged death occurred
right after a man CONVICTED of a crime of violence was exposed for
posting from "Runningwolf's" IP and computer....but since ANYTHING is
possible on-line, I will wait until I have hardcopy evidence of the
facts, as I always do.

Amoeba... hmmm... so is that *lower* or *higher* than Maggot? It's so
hard to keep the hierarchy of life-forms straight these days.

Ahhh yeah, please do enlighten us, what exactly is a "personal IP?"
This would be handy information to have when I am writing router
tables. ROFLMAO

Perhaps you are ignorantly referring to a computer's NetBios or
perhaps an individual DSL router IP? The Bluturtle account is posting
from a UU Net DIAL-UP in Arizona.... not a Hughes Net proxy server
like you and your imaginary friends, not a newsfeed or remailer, a
DIAL-UP in Arizona.

Now, why would someone who is allegedly in Hawaii make a long distant
phone call to ARIZONA to get on-line?

No it is not. I will ask you the same thing I asked Hope, where did I
say ONE WORD to or about Bluturtle, until she insulted me?

As I said, she..and you, get what you give.

...and I should believe one word that comes off your keyboard
because? You make money by writing (poorly) about Indians. You have
a vested financial interest in Faux Indians.

Regardless, even if you were telling the truth, anyone can buy a net
phone account showing their location to be ANYWHERE they wish for
$30.00 a year.

And more mysterious yet... how could i call an Island area code to
talk to Lisa when she is actually sitting there having coffee with
Wolfie in the Arizona desert??? Oooooo.... spooky...... Maybe she is
one of those bi-locators with special powers to be in two places at
the same time! Ohmigod... what is the world coming to when bilocators
can just go willy-nilly wherever they want? There should be laws.
There should be vigilantes. Save us all, Xena!!!!!!

"Bluturtle" was posting from Hawaii up until December 2008. In
January of 2009 she starts posting from UU Net ARIZONA ...and she has
been posting from an Arizona UU Net dial-up ever since.
Faux Indians never last long anywhere. I wonder if something Monica
did got Bluturtle run out of Hawaii?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/063268c5e18d9586?hl=en&dmode=source
From: "blutur...@gmail.com" <blutur...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: And So You WANNA BE!!!!! Fraud
Date: 29 Jan 2006 17:24:40 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.37.161.20

Trace Route: 66.37.161.20

66.37.161.20 - Geo Information
IP Address 66.37.161.20
Host NET66-37-161-20.wave.hicv.net
Location US, United States
City Kaunakakai, HI 96748
Organization Wurldlink Corporation
ISP Oceanic Cable

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/24b8ddf8c32f0bc8?hl=en&dmode=source
From: "blutur...@gmail.com" <blutur...@gmail.com>
Subject: Walking In Mourning So You Know
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:07:53 -0800 (PST)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.37.174.118

Trace Route: 66.37.174.118

P Address 66.37.174.118
Host NET66-37-174-118.wave.hicv.net
Location US, United States
City Kaunakakai, HI 96748
Organization Oceanic Internet

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/20b26800721a935c?hl=en&dmode=source
From: "blutur...@gmail.com" <blutur...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Over the rainbow: Author Promotes Native American
Genocide
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:14:15 -0800 (PST)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.16.63.215

Trace Route: 63.16.63.215

IP Address 63.16.63.215
Host 1Cust8151.an3.lax33.da.uu.net
Location US, United States
City Williams, AZ 86046
Organization UUNET Technologies
ISP UUNET Technologies

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/a1270dbf16f49a89?hl=en&dmode=source
From: "blutur...@gmail.com" <blutur...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: today was commodity day in kingman
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.16.0.72

Trace Route: 63.16.0.72
IP Address 63.16.0.72
Host 1Cust72.an1.lax33.da.uu.net
Location US US, United States
City Phoenix, AZ -
Organization UUNET Technologies