Is anybody there ( 22.20 hrs ref point)

Just me trying to do battle with all the garbage

Yes. 2246
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(sa...@garden506.fsnet.co.uk)

--
Hayley
(gardening on well drained, alkaline clay in Somerset)

> Yes. 2246

AOL 23.04

--
Sue

Don't tell me the schools are out again already?? His mummy won't be
best pleased when she sees what he has been up to on her computer

Didn't see any.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Point is concerning the attempt to deny the use of the gardening group,
which I consider fair comment and within urg charter.

And I'm afraid, the thread that Janet cites shows that at demon.local, Puce
has infuriated people by her flirtations with trolls. It is hard to avoid
drawing some unpleasant conclusions and at least wondering if some of her
friends haven't followed her here.

However, in reading that particular thread I was amused to see the first of
the sponsored links on the right:

Trolls
Great deals on Trolls
Shop on eBay and Save!
www.eBay.com

:-)

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
bed and breakfast near Ludlow: http://www.stonybrook-ludlow.co.uk
Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church:
http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk

Gawd I had enough of this .... June, read on and let it be done with
once and for all.

In the early 1990s I joined demon.local and posted there for years and
years. We had a few self appointed sig.bunnies - our rules, beside
beleiving in the camel that doesn't exist was to have a compliant sig.
of 4 lines or less. Those with a non compliant sig were picked upon and
thrown out. This was and still is a very robust group. I made many
friends and we have met many times and I am still in touch with many.

A couple of years ago I made a great friend, called ah, who lives in
Virginia. He is a landscape designer and creates the most amazing
gardens. At first everyone replied to him, ask Andyw here - he's been
in demon with me since the beginning. There was no problems until we
started getting flooded by 3 individuals and we had our fair share of
weirdos. Last summer ah got involved with some trolls, to which three
characters from demon were trying to battle with. I say 'trying'
because there's a fine line between saying to a troll 'stop posting'
and starting a conversation as a result of the post. Sadly, all the
sig. bunnies kept nagging the trolls - it was fun for them but all they
did is create even more flooding. The trick is not to reply. Here, we
can see Janet constantly replying which is a really bad idea indeed. I
left it to the boys ... I don't really like confrontation - that is
unless you try to hurt me and then I'll ripost, I will.

However, ah and I became close and exchanged presents and I posted to
him and him to me. We are planning a trip there next April. I went away
in June from the group who by then became totally flooded and I got fed
up with the racial abuse, the homophobia etc. I felt demon had changed
a lot and I didn't like it anymore.

At the end of August I dealt with 2 death of close friends as well as a
demon local member. I posted to the group and convinced ah to tell one
troll to pipe it down as he was becoming abusive. I then started
replying to Tony because he kept telling me to stop posting to ah. I
kept refusing.

I was told in September to stop posting to ah by Tony. a) ah had and
always had a compliant sig., b) he became a friend and not only to me
and c) he is really funny, intelligent etc. So I refused. Rules are
rules. In the meantime two characters kept posting to him, including
Pedt actually. I suggested the unfairness of it all - but it didn't go
down well. Ah was then replying to a lot of trolls, cascading etc. I
kept saying that this wasn't my business and my business was to reply
to ah when he addressed me. I didn't like him for this, but for the
posts we exchanged which were about mostly gardening, dry wall
building, food, plants and dogs etc. In the meantime, perhaps 5 of the
bunnies started replying to a guy who I knew was a troll. I pointed
this out but they said he wasn't. If you pip into demon local now, you
will see that the troll has now completely taken over with a bunch of
kids from the States.

I've managed to keep in touch as we are meeting next month in memory of
our lost friend where his widow will scater his ashes in Cumbria. I
hope I'll be able to get there.

This has never ever been anything to do with me. I don't take part in
cascading, I don't take part in responding to trolls because I know how
they work etc. As a proof, look in this forum and show me somebody
where and when I have cascading, when I have replied to troll, when I
have been abusive without reason etc.

I'm nice, I play nice and get out when I need to get out. I obey the
rules and enjoy the company.

When we lost a friend who died of leukemia and a troll started
impersonnating him, I started posting again because Jennie, his widow
couldn't cope. It was heart breaking to see her having to read all the
garbage. We tried to help her sorting herself out with the technicality
of her emails etc. Then Tony (Rachel's husband from the clematis
nursery) told me that I had written hundreds of emails to ah (who in
turn was posting to the chap impersonnating our lost friend). I said I
had been very busy for the most part of the summer last year and anyway
had left the country and therefore couldn't have written all those
alledge emails. Then the game of 'telling the truth' poped out. It was
a game. By end of December of course I had written lots of email ....
but when Tony first speculated is was only a handful.

The game also is that when I come on, demon wakes up and that happened
many time before. You get comment like 'the good old days are back'
'I'll put the kettle on' etc. We've always had huge rows in demon -
that's the group.

So, I would suggest that before any further crap comes up regarding my
14 years exchange with demon local, Janet and her groupies stop and
read from perhaps the beginning. If you wish I can also forward emails
from many demon local members telling me the unfairness of the battle
and more to the point to 'keep posting'.

The situation of demon local is due to Neil Barker, Craig Oldfield and
Chris Hill who have constantly ignated trolls, abusing them, stalking
them, critisised them etc. They have done this because the group shrank
down, because they refused new comers and called anyone a troll, very
much as Janet is doing. What they didn't realised is that it will
totally sink the group. Which it has.

Janet's vendetta towards me has to stop. And stop right now.

La Puce.

Rusty - not you. Don't tell me you think that Janet is right with her
vendetta. Please tell me it is not so.

It's a perfectly normal thing to do if anyone is concerned about trouble
being brought to a newsgroup and or individuals on a group. Puce was in
trouble at demon.local for making scores of posts in reply to trolls. If
you look there now, some of them are still posting there and pretty
horribly, too. Puce is not.
Trolls may well have followed her in here and certainly, the troll who
posted here yesterday about this group becoming moderated, also posted the
same thing to rec.ponds, inviting people there to come here. Rec.ponds is
infested with trolls, as is demon.local. These people tend to go round in
circles, upsetting as many people and groups as they can. It is at least
possible that some of them have followed Puce here and we know that a troll
leaped onto her posts at misc.rural and followed her into urg.

Why did that spring to your mind?

Splutter........!

No it's not. I haven't posted to demon in month, beside one post in
January regarding the Cumbria walk. Sheldon from misc.rural came in
here because Janet crossposted to you and all what I had written on
misc.rural. That's why you saw it.

Sheldon is not a troll. You don't understand the difference between
your own hatred to save a virtual friendship you have on urg and an
actual troll. Sheldon is an individual who has been abused by Janet and
took the opportunity to get even during my banters with Janet on
misc.rural. So stop it now Sacha and do what you do best which is
discuss horticulture and busy yourself with that and that alone.

I think the person who doesn't know the difference between genuine posters
and trolling is yourself. Sheldon's language and manner of posting and his
deliberate decision to start cross-posting to urg, speak for themselves.
You cosied up to Sheldon. If those are the people you choose to make friends
with, it's no wonder you got into so much trouble at demon.local
People whose idea of fun is to follow people into new groups and make
trouble there are trolls. The trolls you encouraged at demon.local may well
have followed you here to make trouble, too.
And please stop telling me what to do. You wouldn't like one of your new
best friends to think you're one of the "owners" of this group, surely?

Language has nothing to do with trolling. Anger is anger Sacha. Sheldon
was angry. I was angry. Many are angry of seeing so many posts by Janet
which are not called for. Look at the last one to Jenny. To poor Jenny
who is as charming and gentle as anything. Who is fun and just so
adorable. What is the matter with you two?!?!?!? Can you just leave it
now?

I had no problem with demon local. I have many friends on demon local.
You are again trying to bring me down with false accusation. I haven't
EVER posted to Sheldon. Not one single post. So post your proof before
you write your nonsense. Stop it Sacha.

NO they haven't. I have never posted to trolls. I have posted to ah who
is not a troll but an individual who posted to troll. That is the
difference.

You too. Stop telling me how to run my business, who to write to, what
to say and what to like, what to think and to whom to write or not.

Now you are being stoopid. Why don't you say to Janet to stop being
nasty to June, Jenny, Martin, Ophellia, Sheldon, myself?!? Why do you
always defend her nasty behaviour? You're a strange woman indeed for
wanting so much trouble.

Just stop it or I'll also dig out nasties about you. Beleive me I will.
So let me be.

I really hate to get into this but I can't let this one go.
Google Groups - search for demon.local. Find posting by La Puce - view
profile - post activity - gives these results for the last few months (sorry
it won't line up):

Post Activity

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec

2005 1 31 1 3 34 92 11 47 7 9 6
2006 70 3

So 70 postings in January this year.

No you don't hate it, you actually LOVE the torment, the grumpiness,
the trouble. You seem to THRIVE on gossip Sally Thompson!!!!

Yes in 2005. My friend died in September and I posted none this year
Sally. NONE. So learn to read and learn to keep your nose in people's
business.

The trick is to know trolls when you see them and then ignore them.

Fair's fair, La Puce may have more difficulty recognising a troll for
what it is than we do.

/snip/

This is really funny - Zetnet closed its own newsgroups to outside ISPs
because of continual trolling and foul language perpetrated almost
entirely by Demon customers...

/snip/

YAMI5MIKE&ICM £5

> Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

I don't think vendettas are right, full stop.

If people rub each-other up the wrong way, they should take good care to
say nothing which invites a response.

It's not true Rusty. Ah is a nice chap. He however talked to young kids
because demon became so abusive with racial abuse etc. the trolls had a
field trip. Ah is charming and I would put him opposite you at dinner,
I would. He's lovely.

But like in any group, there's group within group, and because I hadn't
posted much last year, and returned to talk to ah, Neil Barker (a
complete racist lunatic) gave me a hard time and didn't gave me time to
explain that I was trying to tell ah to pipe down with some other
posters regarding the loss of our friend.

Anyway ... it's all so weird when I explain it. And I don't know why
I'm trying to explain this to a bunch of people I hardly know anyway
... It's frankly depressing.

But just look at Sally's post!!! It says I had posted all of these for
2006 when I haven't written to demon since December - to the exception
of one in January. All the posts refers to uk. gardening!

She says one thing and post a proof for another! Where is the fairness
Rusty? Answer me?! Where is it?!?

Fine. Great. Phew ... ! Right, I tried that. The woman is even going at
Jenny now, before that it was June and before that me, Martin etc...

But just out of curiousity - how can you stay still in front of
unfairness. How can you just not do anything in front of the obvious.
My blood boil !! I get furious at injustice. I really do.

An interesting conclusion.

Then you had better take it up with Google Groups. This is what they report
for your postings to demon.local. The figures for postings to urg are quite
different - do the search for yourself if you think they are misrepresenting
you. Why should I make it up? The only time I have crossed swords with you
is over your extremely rude posting in French, which I took exception to.

Well off course Sally! What do you expect me to say?! Well done for
stiring even further?

Ok. I actually emailed a friend (feels like on Millionaires game or
something). I looked at my profile and you are RIGHT. OK? I thought I
posted in December. But it was indeed in January. So sorry Sally. You
are right - but your numbers didn't lined up. However, the posts Tony
said I wrote from September till October were wrong. The 'game' carried
on till December and obvioulsy by then the number had swollen. So he
wasn't right. In any case I'm seeing him soon ... That's the funny
thing of it all really.

I apologise - but please if you do contribute, contribute on positive
stuff not only on the negative stuff, especially when it's about me.

Yes. And you got it wrong. I called Janet une conne which means an
idiot. She however came up with something else which I have never EVER
written because it is far too rude and I have never written it, here,
nor on demon nor anywhere in my life. Furthermore, Janet is capable to
manipulate anyone, even you in thinking her French is better than mine,
that my business is better understood and ran by herself ... the woman
has an answer to everything, always. She knows it all!! Isn't she! She
is vicious and manipulative, rude and obnoctious but then you know it
too.

I have made a promise to someone in here that I will never EVER write
to her nor Sacha. If they lie, I'll post to you if I think they lie.
There. Can't say fairer than that. And please don't stir further
please. It's ridiculous.

She might but not for want of telling. If one does look at any of that
thread in demon.local she has been both informed and begged over and over to
stop dealing with them. I doubt she wouldn't recognise them through lack of
experience.
However, what I'm saying is that once you DO get started with trolls and
they know that you respond to them or rise to their bait, however you do it,
they will all too often make a habit of following someone into every group
they use. That after all is their idea of 'fun'.
--
Sacha

Rusty did not write the para below, Puce. I did.
>

--

> Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

/snip/

I didn't write that.

Life is not fair. And when people (no sides taken!) dig themselves into
holes or entrenched positions on what they see as fair or right, it
takes a great deal more strength of character to put differences aside
than to continue sniping.

*I* of course, am the epitome of fairness.

The trick is to find who goes into rec.ponds from this group as that
newsgroup was mentioned in the trolls despatches and whoever pissed
someone off in that group brought it here.

[snipped]

Richard.

--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
it." Gene Spafford (1992)

As far as I can tell from my archives the trolls didn't. The regulars
there /certainly/ didn't. HTH.

I was intending just lurking to see if a handle could be got on the
occasional flooder here but I am /not/ accepting that I kept posting
to ah. Apologies to the rest of the newsgroup for posting once to
refute it.

<http://tinyurl.com/gyr84> resolves to my own Google posting history
in demon.local since 1st Jan 2003. There were /precisely/ three posts
in response to ah, two documented on Google (both on page 2).

Two posts are <http://tinyurl.com/rdddm> and <http://tinyurl.com/mo8ao>
plus a missing one but which that latter references, just after your
friend replied to nearly every post in a flood, similar to but smaller
than those here, at the rate of over 10 a minute.

[..]

But you appreciate cascades as <http://tinyurl.com/nfbrc> proves.
"...and a lovely cascade is being created..." and you have responded
to trolls - your friend ah, for one, who claimed he crapped on a
newsgroup better than other trolls <http://tinyurl.com/r67fy> and
admitted that he replied to all of the flood posts - what I quoted
in <http://tinyurl.com/mo8ao>.

I see no reason to correspond further on the subject in urg, and will
not be doing so, as a) the public archives speak for themselves and
b) ^up there I have promised urglers that I will not do so.

I'm not taking sides. I'm not interested in who said what to whom,
when, why, where or how that started the spats here on either side.
I'm merely refuting a lie involving me used as supporting material
in a spat. Whichever side used one I would do so.

--
Pedt

(snip)

Hullo Pedt.

Ho yes. Appreciating from a distance that is. It was lovely at some
point - all these colours changing. And why not appreciate something
nice amongst all the horrible posts? I had forgotten it was in June
2004 !! Time really flies :o)

Fair enough.

That is absolute rubbish! Sheldon crossposted to urg because you went
stalking Janet in misc.rural and YOU specifically mentioned urg there.
Sheldon did not know of the existence of this group until you mentioned it
and he admitted that today. Sheldon's arrival in this group was as a direct
consequence of your action.

You went to misc.rural to be abusive to Janet and to try to make trouble for
her. You brought a troll right back here.

He is. And the regulars at misc.rural have made sure that he knows that his
comments are as unacceptable there as they are here.

Banter? You were abusive to Janet in misc.rural, called her a stalker (when
clearly the only stalking happening then was from you) and you accused her
of causing someone to lose their job. You went to misc.rural to abuse Janet
not to engage in banter. You are a liar.

Quite a few people from here have been in rec.ponds. But whether they
originated posts there or what they wrote or replied to here was
cross-posted, I haven't checked. The person who has caused all the trouble
may be using 20 different names for all we know when posting regularly, as
opposed to spamming. They're not exactly the sort that is known for their
courage!
--
Sacha

The thread there - about a poster called Ah - relates to a flood in
demon local quite a long time ago. I've no reason to believe either way
whether it was related to the recent urg floods or not. LaP was not
involved in the flooding at all - but seemed to like the person Ah - who
flooded - supposedly in response to "an aggressive troll".

In fact, this Ah has proven himself to be a fully fledged troll himself
- mainly by the schizoid behaviour of trying to appear all calm,
reasonable and affable to one group - and actually doing his best to
make dl unreadable to anyone that doesn't like interminable inane
cascades, abuse and deliberate attempts to cause problems for the
genuine readers of the group. He might not be as bad as some, but
that's a pretty odd measure to come to a positive judgement on him.

(And I say that as someone who likes LaP - and who has seen similar such
explosions in dl for many years. LaP is rather hot-headed at times -
and does respond rather too quickly with heart rather than mind
sometimes. That aside, I'm staying out of the whole sordid squabble:)

--
regards andyw

Keep on gardening!

Androo

Great idea ;o)

I've had a little look around because from where I am now it's gone all
pear shape, again. This type of flooding is different to what we have
experienced over the years in dl. In dl. it was via cascading and
discussions and crossposting - this is very different. I took the
profile of one post who seemed to be familiar and repeatitive - and the
first post that this individual has posted in the genre is the 13th Dec
2004. That's not new then! His/hers first attempt to send this kind of
nonsense came from alt.fan.barry-manilow (of all ngs ...) and the same
address is being used, lar...@yahoo.com.

I'm no expert - and this is as far as I can go, but I often wondered if
it wouldn't be a good idea to flood that individual email address so
that he/she gets his/hers own medicine? But then we're reduce to the
same level as this idiot ...