How Long to Tape / Mud / Sand Drywall ?

I'm going to be looking for someone put on the outside corner metals &
tape/mud/sand. For the typical contractor, is this a job that can be
completed in a weekend? I know it will depend on the crew size but
I'm not sure what a crew of any size can get done in a day.

Thanks,
Kevin

I couldn't tell you how many man-hours is needed to do this job, but it is
not likely it can be finished in two days because of the drying time.
Usually the first coat of joint compound dries faster than the next two
coats. At a minimum I think 3 days would be required because of that.

With setting type joint compound, such as Durabond or EZ Sand, a crew
of two should finish it in two days. With standard premixed joint
compound it would take longer as the drying time is the principle
limiting factor and throwing more men at it won't help.

R

aem sends....

If they want the job they do. :-)

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
dgri...@7cox.net

news:1174353286....@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Area differences I suppose. There are plenty of hungry guys around
here that work weekends. I've also used union guys. A few buddies
would show up bright and early each weekend morning, knock the living
crap out of the taping and spackling and knock off around 1 PM. They
were "moonlighting" on the weekends and that was their only free time.

R

union guys moon lighting
isn't that against union policy?
where are the dues?

drywall (not moisture resistant) in the basement?
green board (moisture resistant) is better.

blueboard with plaster would have been the best choice and could have
been completed in a few hours.

not enough drying time to finish in 1 weekend unless they work all
night.
|

I guess I'll be comparing to my other quotes when I get them in about
a week. But, how does the initial $750 sound for about 1150 square
feet? High, low, or average?

Thanks,
Kevin

Don't ask questions like that unless you're of the belief that all
contractor's are of equal quality, charge the same amount, estimate
the same way and there are no differences in labor and material costs
anywhere in the world. In order, the correct answers are: they're
not, they don't, they may or may not depending on the trade (probably
not), there are huge differences and you never mentioned where you
were.

I personally believe it is pointless to ask what prices "should be" on
Usenet. If the single best estimator/contractor in the world applies
all of their mighty powers and provides you with the PERFECT number
etched in stone, it might as well be written in invisible ink on
toilet paper for the amount of weight that will carry with the
contractors in your area. Unless someone sees the job and gives you a
firm number, and, most importantly, is prepared to do the work in
agreement with your schedule, the number is 100% useless.

If you need to satisfy your curiosity, by all means get an additional
estimate or two.

R

Where did you get that idea? The union is not interested in
preventing their guys from working to earn money. If the guy is
sitting on a bench they still have a family and expenses. If you call
up the union hall or make a visit, they'll help you out.

R

Mold will grow just fine on either one, so I don't think you're
referring to that. If the basement has such significant moisture
problems that greenboard might be indicated, it would be far
preferable to deal with the moisture problem before finishing the
basement.

1400 SF of skimcoat plaster in a few hours? Not even close unless you
have a small army on hand. If it were that fast, no one would use
drywall, tape and spackle.

1400 SF of skimcoat plaster would be much slower than 3 or 4 hundred
linear feet of tapered edge taping and spackling, and a bit of bead
work. If the OP's contractor isn't resistant to using setting type
compound they could skip all of the drying time.

R

nope
the moisture will peel the paint off regular drywall
you never use regular drywall in a basement......not here anyway.

now you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

concrete emitts moisture for years and years

are you kiddin me
1400 sf
we would be home by 3pm

3 hours to hang and 5 hours to plaster
and only 3 guys
damn we must be good.

If it were that fast, no one would use,
| drywall, tape and spackle.

only the cheap bastards do use drywall/tape/compound
and home owners who don't know any better.

whats the R for................retard
|

Let's see, I'm advising to take care of the moisture problem before
finishing the basement and not rely on greenboard for protection, you
argue against taking care of the moisture problem because concrete
gives off moisture for years and years.

Beside being an excellent example of frontier gibberish, you have no
idea what you are talking about. Concrete does not release moisture
for years. Moisture _may_ pass through the concrete, but there is
only a limited amount of moisture in concrete mix.

I really must apologize. I am standing in the presence of greatness.
Less than a week ago you were telling us about the plasterer you
_hired_ using _nails_ to tack up board on metal stud, and now you've
graduated into Super Plasterer. I stand in awe of your learning
ability.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/67eb5bbc9680441c/7a6e6c6b4bc41ce7?lnk=st&q=&rnum=18#7a6e6c6b4bc41ce7

I can hardly wait until next week's installment where you explain your
technique for reattaching severed limbs. I guess you watch this show
a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

Feel better?

No, it stands for Rico, just like it says above. Thanks for asking.

And learn to quote correctly, ya maroon.

R

a dehumidifier..........no brainer!

correction
you have no idea what I am talking about
I will type slower next time..............sorry

actually it does release moisture for years
it takes aprox. 100 years for concrete to fully cure.
read up on it

now you uderstand
finally

that is correct
I hired an incompetant plasterer to do a job for me and they made a mess
everywhere.
I can't do every job
sometimes I sub the work out.

graduated years ago.............................many................many
years ago.

thats what the shop teacher told me many years ago.

I opted to sub that job out
I do have limits you know.

I never watch tv.................too busy with work.

a little
how bout you?

| yes, it stands for Retardo, just like it says on my lunch box. Thanks

I just love "maroons" with coffee.

what the hell do you know Retardo
you think "spackle" is used for taping drywall.
oh boy, oh boy, oh boy

|
| R
|

You're giving some sketchy advice, based on your prejudices, which are
in turn based on faulty information. Do me a favor, show this thread
to your father - he's still working with you, right? - and see if
you're making him proud.

Concrete gets harder and stronger as the decades pass and the curing
does continue, but concrete does not have an unlimited amount of
moisture to give off. Cement undergoes a chemical reaction, binds the
water it needs, and releases the excess. The excess water does not
stick around for 100 years slowly releasing it. There is not enough
moisture released after the first couple or three months to
appreciably affect a basement's moisture level. If there is a
basement moisture problem, the water is coming from a source other
than the concrete foundation walls. If there is a basement moisture
problem, you deal with it before finishing off the basement.
Suggesting a dehumidifier is similar suggesting using an IV to add
blood to compensate for the bleeding. Might work in the short term,
bad idea in the long term.

The fact that you hired a plasterer that used nails at all on a metal
stud job, and wrote about it as an acceptable method, calls your
knowledge into question, on both technical and hiring grounds.

My vernacular in referring to taping and spackling, is partially a
regional thing - that's how it was referred to when I started in
construction, and partially an idiomatic thing - like bandaid. I'm
sure while you're standing there bleeding on the floor, you yell out,
"Someone get me a self-adhesive bandage!"

In any event, this thread is about the OP's needs. Your comment that
only cheap homeowners use drywall is insulting to him and off-base for
the reasons I've already mentioned. Your suggestion to go with
plaster veneer would cost more - depending on the area, maybe 30 to 50
percent more - and it can't be put on the existing drywall anyway.
You answered the question, "Do I really need to put premium gas in my
Honda?" with "Honda's suck. You should sell it and get a Lexus."
Excellent advice. I'm sure the OP appreciates it.

BTW, you may want to correct your web site about your design
capabilities - it's misleading.
"Plans pass town hall approval for permit in most states"
In most states a licensed architect or engineer - licensed in that
state - must sign off on the plans. You know that - say that. You
shouldn't offer things you can't provide.

Here's an example of one site's wording:
"Do some building departments require engineer {or architect} sealed
building plans to obtain a building permit? Yes. This means that a
licensed engineer {or architect} for your state has to review {insert
company name here}'s building plans to assure that they comply with
your state's building requirements. Once the engineer {or architect}
reviews the plans and no changes are needed, he or she applies his
engineering {or architect's} stamp and his signature to the plans.
This means he takes responsibility for the design not the building
department. If there are needed changes, the engineer {or architect}
usually faxes {insert company name here} notes and sketches that we
need to incorporate or change in the plans."

See? That's not misleading at all.

R

PS I took the liberty of crossposting this to a couple of related
newsgroups. For those other groups, the full thread can be found
here: http://tinyurl.com/yumsg3

Not misleading, but illegal in most states. "Plan Stamping" or the
reviewing of plans prepared by others is not legal in any of the states
I'm registered in...

Completely illegal here too. (Ontario)
--

MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

[snip]

[snip]

Sigh!!!!!

Its all a matter of wording.
Just cause YOU call it *reviewing* doesn't make it so.
I know plenty of architects and engineers that have boilerplate sheets made
up with stuff like standard details of headers, footing steel, sill
sections, etc. that simply date and stamp them and sell them to the
homeowner or others for a few hundred bux. The homeowner or builder includes
them with the rest of the permit package and everyone's happy. When the code
changed in 1992 requiring architects and/or engineers to stamp ALL plans
submitted for permit this created a finacial boon for all of them.
Architects and engineers design less than 5% of all the homes in SW FL but
they make money off of ALL of them, by law.

I think we had this conversation a couple of years ago; if you are not a"
licensed design professional", i.e. a P.E. or R.A., then you're a draftsman
or cad operator; nothing more as far as the laws of most states are
concerned. I think the day of the unlicensed "designer" is nearing an end,
if it hasn't already ended.

Tom
"Don" <one-if-...@concord.com> wrote in message
news:130asfm...@news.supernews.com...

"Tom Cular" <tho...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:XvgNh.2040$yo3.964@trnddc04...

of course you are, holding hands, skipping and swinging your arms like
little kids.
|

what the.......who the.............yahhhhh right.

like every other advertisement in the world.

you are incorrect.........again
haven't needed an architect or engineer stamp or license for years.
and YES I design additions, kitchens, bathrooms, whole houses,etc.
they DO pass town halls aproval and do every week.

I can provide far more experiences than you ever will.
and I do sell plans to other states around the USA
everywhere else...............I don't care.
BTW
the plans page you were on has made over $35,000 since 2001
just the 1 page......................................
wow, I guess it is misleading!

thanks for the pep talk
I'm ready again..........lets go.

snipped your stupid tinyurl

I didn't realize that you were artie boy disguised Retardo........he he
he

then move
you live in a corrupted state

wow............that hurts
with all the legal porn in that damn country
unstamped plans are illegal
your countries moral standards are way off base.
not to mention the largest terrorists groups in North America.
The only great thing that comes from canada is their "ginger ale".
oh wait.......thats from the USA.
we just make canada look good as usual.

| --
|
|
| MichaelB
| www.michaelbulatovich.ca
|
|

thats because designers in FL make pills.
hence the term "designer drugs"

To a different corrupted state...

Really? I thought a arch/eng could stamp plans under 2 circumstances:
either the plans were designed under the arch/eng's supervision or as
long as the arch/eng reviewed the plans to ensure that they met code,
were structurally sufficient, etc. Granted, that might take nearly as
long as the design but I thought it was okay as long as an actual
review was made (i.e. they just don't stamp them without checking
code). I mean, it is possible/likely that you find a set of plans on
the internet for $500 and pay $5000 to have them reviewed. But it
would be legal cause the stamper reviewed EVERYTHING and therefore
could ensure code complaince.

Only the first 'circumstance' is legal in Ontario. Review for code
compliance is not the only type of responsibility that the stamp signifies.
It is also for "responsible control" of the design. There are all kinds of
aspects of a design which are not necessarily EXPLICITLY cited in drawings
but which can make or break a project. The designer is responsible for them,
but someone reviewing for code compliance may not appreciate them because
the documents do not describe them. By putting the stamp on the drawings
I'm taking responsibility for the whole show, and my association wants me to
be sure that I've thought about all of it.

(There is a new condition here after recent legislation that permits me to
stamp drawings for code compliance if another ***architect*** takes
responsibility for the rest. I can't stamp the drawings of non-architects at
all, although I'm asked to again and again because I'm a 'little guy' who
presumably would throw away 26 years of work for a G-note.)
--

MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

You meant to say the law, not your association, right?
The desires of your association and the letter of the law are not
necessarily the same.
Or are they?

R

Yes they are. It's the governing body. If I don't comply, I'm out with Don,
only poorer and with less hair.

Yetis have less hair.

When you mentioned association, I thought you were talking about the
cocktails and bow ties association of architects.

R

I deal with funding all day and therefore whenever I see a regulation
I like to push and probe it a little and see what it really
encompasses. So let me pose a hypothetical. I am not trying to be a
PITA, I'm just curious about that reg because I believe it is an
unobtainable prohibition.

Let's say you are putting an addition on a older building -- all
concrete, steel, asbestos, etc. etc. You have the As Builts but the
original architect is dead and buried. But he did a good job and gave
you great drawings with incredible details.

So you figure you want to punch a few holes through the building,
bring in some mechanicals and a couple of doorways. So you need to be
concerned with the structural elements of the exisiting building -- is
it structurally sound, etc. etc. Plus you'll be doing some rehab over
there so you need to bring portions of that building up to code -- say
new interior walls, new HVAC, new electrical, ADA, and maybe a new
elevator.

Now there's now way your new work is done "stand along" because you're
tying in to an existing building. You need to show certain elements
of that building. So what you are saying is that the law says you
cannot rely at all on the old drawings and then confirm the details,
and check for code compliance as part of stamping plans for the new
building and the reno. Instead, you must go out, take your own
measurements, make your own determinations as to what the materials
are, somehow find buried pipes, etc. so that you can show them on your
plans? That may be the law, but that doesn't make sense. In this
case, relying on the old dead guy will probably give you much better
info than you could find without his plans. Seems like there has be
some discretion there. No? I mean, you have control of your new
design, but you have no control of the design of the building that is
already built but you have to show parts of it on your plans.

Just wondering.

Same for me. Documents must be prepared under direct supervision of the
design professional who places his/her seal on the documents.

I don't stamp house plans that I have reviewed unless I redraw them.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Now I think that is wrong! If a set of house plans meets the prescriptive
requirements of IRC then no design professional should have to seal the
drawings. That's they way it is here in Kitsap County and in most
jurisdictions in Washington State.

Of course in seismic zone D2, it's not very easy to design a house to meet
the prescriptive requirements unless you happen to like houses with small
rooms and not very many windows.

Michael is correct when it come to the law in most states in the US. As I
said in another post, that is why I won't stamp drawings prepared by
someone else under any circumstances, unless that person is under contract
to me to to produce the drawings, I.e., a drafting service.

You can use the base building info, but it needs to be confirmed to your
satisfaction. It would be incorporated into your own work, and your own
drawings as you *do* the design. The stamp would then take responsibility
for the older work, regardless of whether you put weasel words on those
plans saying it's someone else's fault if the base building drawings are
off.

It's a completely different thing from stamping some one else's design.
--

MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca

So are shop drawings, sprinkler plans, and such considered to be
produced under your supervision and control? Often they are not
stamped when the leave the shop.

So if you were at an auction and you found the plans for Frank Lloyd
Wright's unknown, unbuilt house -- one that fundamentally defines his
architectural style and that just happens to meet existing building
code -- then you could not build it because you would have to rely on
FLW's design?

I am wondering if this is not an "engineering" or "architectural"
issue but is instead really a copyright issue.

It's a liability issue. If I stamp plans drawn by somebody else, and
there are serious problems, I'm liable for it. I cannot point my finger
at the guy who drew the drawings and say "it's his fault they're
crummy." The stamp legally says "I've designed this and it's right."
In fact, the wording in Minnesota that is required on plans and
specifications is "these documents were prepared by me or under my
direct supervision." They're mine--the liability is mine legally.

As for as-built projects... I can, and do use, the existing drawings
and details. I give them to my consultants, but we also do some field
verification and let the contractor know that we're not responsible to
for the existing building. We're only responsible for the new work,
even if its remodel work.

Nope! The law reads that documents bearing your seal MUST [emphasis
added] be prepared under your direct supervision.

This is intended to prevent "selling" of a professional seal when the
proper design work as not been completed.

I have seen it happen -- mechanical engineer stamps a drawing of a
retaining wall. no calcs, no letter, nothing to indicate that the
engineer actually did anything other than "sell" his seal. The engineer
eventually lost his license when it became apparent that he had made a
habit of doing this sort of thing.

Those types of drawings are usually produced by the installer, not the
design professional (unless the sprinkler guy happens to be an engineer).

I NEVER put my PE stamp on those types of drawings no do I APPROVE those
types of drawings. I have a Shop Drawing "REVIEW" stamp that indicates
that the drawings have been reviewed for GENERAL COMPLIANCE with the
design concept.

I also NEVER leave the design of connection details up to the fabrication
shop. That's what got the engineers who designed the Kansas City Hyatt
Regency walkway into trouble (it collapsed). And, I always review the
shop drawings to make certain that the detailer understood the concept and
has fully implemented the intent of the design.

Doesn't mean you could not build it. The "direct supervision" law just
means that no design professional could put his/her seal on that set of
drawings.

An architect/engineer could completely redraw the drawings under their own
title block/logo and then seal those drawings. Any responsible A/E would
only do so after completely checking the design.

What a fundimentally stupid law. You can take a set of plans and send
it over to a drafting shop and have them redraw it for you and email
you the file so you can print it, but you cannot "buy" an identical
set of plans where the original drawer emails you the exact same
building. Does that strike you as weird?

I have a Drivers license, Pilots, Life Insurance,
a license to transport nuclear materials
throughout North America, a Fire-arms
acquisition license.
I suppose all of those protect the public.

Though not licensed to do surgery, I'm a
great sliver remover, so heart transplants
are not a problem.
Ken

Quite! And the operative word here is "direct".

I find that disturbing on many levels.

R

That's not what I said. In the example you cited the originals were drawn
by one person (FLW) and you asked if a now living architect (or engineer)
could seal those drawings and get a permit.

I answered no. Only if the original drawings were redrawn by the
"architect [engineer] of record" are they considered "prepared under the
direct supervision of the design professional."

Of course, if FLW sealed and signed the drawings then you might have an
interesting story to tell and case to argue with a local building
official.

In the example you cite above, you could "buy" the drawings from the
original drawer and that person can even apply his/her seal to those
drawings. Depending on the jurisdiction prints of those electronic
drawings may or may not have to have an original signature singed in ink.

This last has gotten to be a somewhat contentious issue. I generally
argue that if I send you a PDF version of the drawing with my stamp and
signature which was produced in my office then there is no difference
between that and me sending you via snail mail a print of the original
sealed and signed document. In this case I typically apply "print only"
security to the PDF in order to prevent anyone from copying the seal and
signature electronically. Some jurisdictions require an original signature
on every drawing submitted. That's not too bad if there are only 2-3 sets
of 3-4 drawings, but it's not very much fun if the jurisdiction wants 5
sets of 150 sheets. prints of the sealed and signed original should be
sufficient.

Let's not kid ourselves, FLW's buildings were largely uncomfortable to
live in and the drawings themselves would sell for more than any house
built from them.

You are speaking theoretically, Bob. In most of the building
departments around here, if the drawings are stamped, the building
department doesn't play cop and investigate who prepared them. That's
not really their function. Their view is that the designer of record
is responsible, and if they're responsible and the building department
isn't, well, hell, that's fine. There was one building department in
a local village that refused to accept drawings prepared by an
engineer, even though that is allowed in NY.

Maybe tell the story on Oprah or something, but if the guy is not
currently registered, I don't think it would fly. You may know more
about the technicalities on that front.

I don't think Adobe's PDF security is as secure as you may think:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/
There are a whole host of "password recovery tools" that will strip
the encryption and open up the file to editing.
Send me one of your drawings and I'll show you what I mean. {Pat, you
still have those FLW drawings you told me about last year...? I think
I have a workaround.} ;)

And on another PDF security issue, potentially more damaging for a
much larger group of people:
http://news.com.com/2100-1002_3-6147428.html

R

Why is that disturbing? I'm licensed to put a radio-
active material in an approved lead (Pb) container,
fasten it as directed and transport it in my personal
protection.

Rico I think you're paranoid, truck drivers ship
1000's of gallons of fuels and chemicals on the
inter-states every day, throughout North America,
do those truckers disturb you too?

That's the problem with you people, somebody
mentions the "N" word, and you turn hysterical
like a sissy.

Nuclear energy is a god sent power source,
it's extremely simple, something like a lb of
Uranium gets me a 1,000,000 tons of coal,
in energy equivalence, (E=mc2).

But you boomers need to get all paranoid over
seat belts, smoking, farting, diet, and Nuclear
energy, but then because you reject N-energy,
you'd rather bribe the Mid-East A-holes and
then go way over there to fight a war, that cost's
like a $trillion.
Add Global Warming into that picture and you're
totally screwed up.

So yes, I think Rico is disturbed on many levels.
No offense intended, I vented frustration too.
Ken

Rico:

The point of the PDF security is not to prevent fraud, but to make it more
difficult for the average user. Nothing can prevent someone from stealing
your signature and seal. Color copiers make this an all too frequent
occurrence.

It also says "I've made an attempt to secure my documents. Clearly,
someone has broken the security and stolen my seal." It's just another
added level of legal protection... something else to help your lawyer
out, if it ever becomes necessary.

And I hate lawyers...

You misunderstood me, Ken. It's not the nuclear thing. It's that
_you_ are free to go anywhere in North America that I find
disturbing! I thought they'd locked you up in that 20x20 and tossed
the key. Now I find out you are not even chained to the building?!
Who _wouldn't_ be disturbed? :)~

Nice overreaction, BTW. Guess I found one of them there buttons,
didn't I? ;)

R

Me2

My wife and I are honored to have many standing
invitations from people who reside in the USA, it
would be a shame if we were unable to socialize
by the fracture of the North American continent.

This 20x20 works great, we've been in a year.
It's very comfortable for us two, and is accomodatious
for 4.

I'd like to pre-fab it, for practical housing but the problem
I have is how to pre-fab the flat 24x24 roof, that collects rain.
I'm working on that problem.

LOL, if your bragging about tickling me
than I will agree, is that what you see?

Smoochy
Ken

Under Clinton, they passed a law allowing for electronic signatures.
So that's probably legal. But I think that if you sealed a CD, it
might damage it.

Yeah, FLW emailed me a set of plans a few years back. I've got it on
my drive somewhere.

It is possible to do so. Stick a paper label on the CD and put your seal
and sig on that.

You canadian spell g-spot funny.

Hey now, its not so bad being *out* here, in fact its downright nice.
And I don't know where you're getting this idea I ain't poor!
All my ducks are tied up in the hoosier 'venture. heh

Structurally, I would never rely on *unknown* drawings, and I would never
include someone else's drawing with mine.
The only exception are standard detail sheets like I mentioned before.
I would design the new part and do so so that it was completely independent,
structurally, from the existing building and connect the two only
aesthetically.
You see, just because the existing drawings indicate there is a proper
footing, perimeter beam, etc., where they are supposed to be there is no
guarantee those things were actually installed so thus, my new addition
could fail due a lapse of judgement on my part in that regard.
So, I don't do it.....for any amount of money.
You can't but a good reputation but you can throw one away real cheap.

You're taking this stuff way too far.
Me?
I'd simply redraw the damn thing and be done with it, and my version would
be much better anyway, plus, mine would have high ceilings. :-)
The only people that *copy* other peoples stuff are idiots that couldn't do
any better on their own regardless.

In SW FL the authorities require *wet* seals on every single sheet in every
single set.
I know guys that run 3 or 4 sheets under the seal at a time but sign every
one of them.

In SW FL the DBPR will pay a bounty to anyone that turns a trick.
Dept of Business and Professional Regulations, in Tallahasse.
They are some nasty SOB's.
I wish something utterly horrible would happen to that building in
mid-morning, mid-week some fine spring day.

Thats easy, build it in (2) 12' x 24' sections.
Each section will be on a reverse 2/12 pitch that looks like a V.
In the middle of the V you put a, ah, damn, whats the name of it?
My mind is a blur at the moment, but there is a PVC drain that separated our
swimming pool from the porch, embedded in the concrete decking, that
diverted all the water that overflowed from the pool.
I'll wake up in the middle of the night remembering the name of that thing.
Anyway, that drain is linear, about 2" wide and has lots of little slots
along its length.
Ahhh...just thought of it, its a Deco-drain.
Here's a pic of about a 12" long piece, I think it comes in 20' lengths.
http://tinyurl.com/2ecwlj

There are pros and hacks with and without stamps- the trick is to be able to
tell the difference. I see plenty of commercial work where 'WTF were they
THINKING?' comes to mind. I also see the same with many of the McMansions.
They may meet code, and be engineeringly safe, but they are dysfunctional in
layout, inefficent as hell energy-wise, and just plain ugly.

aem sends...

At least we are allowed to produce a facsimile of our seal and put it into
the cad file. Only the signature has to be original.

There may be those who engage in that activity, but those who do are most
likely breaking the law.

Bob, how much analysis of design that wasn't yours would you want to do
before feeling comfortable attesting to it via your seal?

Matt

No documents prepared outside my office receive my PE Stamp with only one
exception. The only documents prepared outside my office to get my PE
Stamp are drawings prepared by a drafting service I hired to help with
drawings.

In no case will I seal someone else's calculations.

I wouldn't seal someone else's work either as most states require that
the work be completed by you or under your direct control. However, it
seems to me that if someone had a design that was completed by an
engineer who is no longer available (let's say deceased) and needed the
design sealed in order to construct it, it would be legitimate to
analyze the design and perform the critical calculations to ensure the
integrity of the design and then seal it. It sounds like you wouldn't
consider this legitimate. Am I understanding you correctly?

Matt

Ah! The deceased engineer (DE) scenario! This presents a special case. I
assume you mean the scenario where the DE dies and his seal has expired.
If he dies before his seal has expired then the calcs should be able to be
used "AS IS".

I think I would have a conversation with the State Licensing Board BEFORE
I went very far with this. Just to see what they might allow and how
tightly they would look at the

Yes, I agree it would be wise to check. I'm just trying to explore what
other engineers consider to be reasonable interpretations of the
"perform or direct" language in the laws.

Matt

What does *direct control* mean?

I used to work at a place that had a base office and 2 satellite offices.
An architect in the base would seal drawings prepared in a satellite.
If that is direct control, then what isn't?

I think its the same as "responsible charge"? That's the term used by DPR
in Florida.

MC

Technically, in my state, it's not "direct control" if the architect
that seals the drawings is not close enough to the person producing the
drawings to look over their shoulder and say "hey...that's not right.
Do it like this..." Your example wouldn't cut it... except if it
worked like this...the satellite office drafted the plans, the architect
reviewed them, then sent back the required revisions and then reviewed
and approved the final plans (essentially, the satellite office is just
a drafting office). If the satellite office did everything, but the
architect was expected to just seal them, then it wouldn't be kosher.

Its a muddy line at best.
I suspect anything goes, until something goes wrong or someone gets caught.
That company had 3 architects in the satellite office I worked in and none
of them could seal plans, there were'nt associates.
All 30 of the associate architects worked in the base office 175 miles away.
The 3 architects on site would make redline drawings on trash all day long
that I would hardline on crystal then when the project was complete it was
fedex'd to the base for printing and sealing.
That company did it all, schools, jails, airports, stadiums, hospitals,
interstate highways, bridges, etc.
It was a cool place to work, I did alot of learnin' there.

That used to be the case here, but now it's "responsible control" and can be
done at a distance if you've taken precautions.