So Tell Me About the Dark Side...

It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's
travels. But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use
some firming.

And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to
look behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!

And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".

So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district. Can they
get through doors or between bollards?

I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed
records for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of
immediate concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the
vehicle beyond a certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?

Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.

I'm divided on the image issue. I have a reputation as a nut-case which
I'm keen to keep up, but France is a nation very hostile to script
breakers and I'm limit as it is with my Childfreedom. A bent on a
_French_ road might get more attention than I really want. Besides
which, it might even interest the police - it seems the status of
tricycles is ambiguous here and according to some opinions they are not
allowed on roads. Moreover, some of those bents really do look
uncomfortably like wheel-chairs, and my superstitious side would feel it
unlucky to send out a signal of being disabled.

The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?
Although I do like the idea of being able to sit out the traffic lights,
sunning myself or reading Trollope.

I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.

Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...

At the moment I'm only dreaming, so I'm not even thinking about price. I
suppose up to about $5000, but too much more would cost me the sacrifice
of too many vacations.

EFR
Ile de France

As have most of us.

For me it is the cost factor and space. I would have to rearrange sheds
and stuff in order to find space.

Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.

The ICE stuff (and some others) can be folded so it should be easy to
fold it for the plane journey (or a train/car journey). The folded package
isn't as compact and definitely not as light as a folding bike so isn't
really suitable for commuting but I would guess it is absolutely fine
for travelling to the start of a tour.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

It is worth noting that deckchairs come in at different heights and this
will affect one's ability to watch the world go by, as you go by the
world. The ICE trikes are relatively low compared to most recumbnet
bikes, for example. This is far from being a general deal-breaker, but
it is worth taking into account.

There's nothing intrinsic to recumbents concerning stability. A Trice
gets stability from 3 wheels, and you don't need to go 'bent to get
that. And since I've watched Roos cycle along quite happily on her
hybrid not only with no hands on the bars but taking a jacket off and
tying it around her waist, I know it's also the case that 3 wheels
aren't necessary for this either! In fact I think most trikes require
more handlebar input than many 2 wheel uprights.

Never mind that, the red light sabres are the cool bit! ;-)

Same way you turn any other trike... using the steering! Nothing
puzzling about bars under the seat, they've got to go somewhere...

It's /possible/ (if you try!) but unlikely. A "tadpole" configuration
like a Trice works against this, as does the low centre of mass, but you
can make sure by simply leaning into the bend, just like on a bike. The
trick is remembering that leaning has no steering effect on its own!

Depends on the gearing. On a trike you can have stupidly low gearing
that will let you get up practically anything you can maintain traction
on. Just make sure you specify low gearing. ICE are based in a
particularly hilly bit of the West Country, so it makes sense that their
products will "do" hills!

Depends on the particular door or bollards... Note that ICE do various
different track widths, and the narrow track models will have fewer
problems with this. To start with, measure any you know you'll want to
get by regularly and compare to the track width. NT models will be
slightly less stable in fast cornering, but if you lean they should
still be okay.

Just ram on the anchors. You'll have to try /really/ hard to go over
the bars... There isn't any particular issue with either trikes or
'bents for speed handling as long as they're decently implemented, and
by all accounts I've come across Tricen are.

IME clowns prefer unicycles or tall bikes.

But for the most part maintenance is really quite standard. The
non-standard bits are the frame and the seat, and they don't really need
any to speak of. Brakes and transmission are standard items, and any
bike shop should be able to deal with them if you prefer not to do it
yourself.

Probably... I use a Brompton folder as my general hack bike because it
has a lot of convenience points over my 'bent.
For porting it, a trike is /generally/ worse than a bike as there's more
of it, but the folding models from ICE and Greenspeed should fit in a
case. Weight limits will be your main enemy, I'd think. And you'll
probably need to do a bit of reassembly and minor mechanical tweaking to
put them back into road-shape. If you're not happy with a spanner, or
meeting someone who is, that could be a problem.

See http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/contact_dealers.htm for Trice dealers,
several in the S (or south-ish) of England. (There is one French dealer
in there).

All of those should be possible on a Trice. For the electric side of it
Kinetics (kinetics.org.uk) might be worth getting in touch with, as Ben
does both Tricen and Heinzman motors.

The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.
Beyond that, it would depend on your particular dream (Monster!
Monster! Monster! ;-)), and Trice probably have something to suit yours.

Also look at Greenspeeds, noting the dealership at http://www.wrhpv.com/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

They'd sell you the prototype for a minimum of 10K and still make a
loss.. I saw it at the York Rallye last year (with Mr Senior of this
parish). Probably not EFR's cup of tea as it is very very low (and
supposedly very very fast). However, you can pick it up and put it on a
car roof rack with one hand.. And this is a fully sdjustable
dismantleable trice. If they made it to fit it could be a kilo
lighter..

..d

>Artemisia wrote:

The dealers in Holland and London or Forest Row in the UK will be
closer to Paris than Montpellier though :-(
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

I was contemplating asking to borrow it for the French Ride next year,
but I suspect that I'd break it before reaching Brest...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
und keine Eie.

You're too big for such delicate equipment obviously. Wonder if they'd
lend it to moi? I hardly ever break very much.

--
Dave...

A good answer already from Pete Clinch who knows an awful lot about
'bents. You'd have to think very carefully about the undoubted
drawbacks, but if these are not show-stoppers I would have thought a
tadpole trike recumbent would make a lot of sense for someone who a)
has balance problems with two wheels, b) gets pain and discomfort on an
upright, and c) is not afraid of being stared at. Sound like anyone you
know?

As to the legal situation, I think you need to check that out locally.
But trikes have certainly been ridden in the Paris - Brest - Paris. For
the electric option I think Pete's idea of talking to Darth Ben at
Kinetics is a good one at least for a starting point, although his shop
is probably one of the worst options for you from a purely geographical
point of view.

I've only had a brief ride on a Trice, which was configured for someone
much taller than me, but I found it extremely stable and very easy to
steer, and it had impressive stopping power too.

--
Dave...

Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different way,
so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean over
to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.

A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)

As has been said by others, you're not alone in this! I gave some
*serious* consideration to getting either a Trice-QNT or Trice-S earlier
this year, but ended up getting a two-wheeled recumbent (Grasshopper)
instead. Not entirely sure whether that was the best decision yet, but
it seems to be working out for me ... of course, if I'd bought a trike
I'd probably be wondering exactly the same thing at this point!

Underseat steering can limit how tight you can turn, however unless you
make a habit of turning round on narrow roads it shouldn't be a problem.

I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Ah yes, the Dark Side is calling to you. Resistance is futile.
I have an IceT, albeit it not the folding one. Saying that, it has been
transported in the back of Herman the German (Merc A-class)

I do refer to Mr Norbert Frosty as my mobile deck chair.

The Dark Side is definitely calling...

My Ice T is incredibly stable round corners. The low centre of gravity makes
cornering fun - you can pedal into and accerlate round corners. Small
turning circle too. The sterring is very, very light - I can steer Mr
Norbert Frosty with one finger of one hand.

Slower but easier to get up hills than on my uprights. Slower as it's
heavier. Easier because you can't pedal so slowly that you fall off...

I can get mine through 'normal' doorways but bollards - depends on spacing.

Braking is a doddle - Norbert has drum brakes on the front wheels - very
smooth, very sure braking.

Very little maintenance. Norbert is just kept clean. No hassle. Your
colleague's prejudice is showing ;-)

I've stopped the traffic in Dereham, had fingers pointed at me...

As for unlucky - I get more room given to me by motorists when I'm on my
'bent than when on any of my 'normal' bikes.

Norbert is very easy on my wrists. I haven't taken Norbert on a plane. I'm
reluctant to take any of my steeds on aircraft.

Practicality...

Well... if I had to get rid of my stable and keep only one steed... let's
see

Road bike
Tourer
Hybrid
'bent trike

I'd keep the bent. Seriously. Even though I'm slower on the 'bent - I'd keep
it. Why? In winter it's much more stable on slippy roads. You can't fall off
it going uphill. If you want you can stop - put on the parking brake & take
a breather.

You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals. However, you don't have to unclip before stopping to prevent you
falling off.

If you come to Norfolk you are welcome to give Mr Norbert Frosty a go.

Norbert came with a rack. Reliable brakes included too. Plenty of gears (24
last time I looked on Norbert, which is entirely sufficent). The only extras
I've added is I've put a Minoura Space Bar on the front to carry two front
lights and I've got various rear lights dotted about. Ice T currently £1599
which is roughly 2300 Euros.

Not as expensive as you think...

> EFR
> Ile de France

Cheers, helen s

I've not tried an upright trike since I was... *much* younger. The rest
of my family tried one at Centre Parcs that a pal had rented and
couldn't do it at all, for the reasons given.

I've found on my brief acquaintance with 'bent trikes that there are
differences, but not hugely problematical ones. On a heavily cambered
road I found having to actively steer to go straight ahead /very/ odd at
first, but I soon got use to it (effect enhanced by the transmission
setup on a Kettwiesel delta).

Fitting both a Heinzmann hub motor and a Rohloff onto the same trike is
going to be tricky though. Not impossible, but adding something like
a G-Boxx-like mid-drive is going to be expensive even by Rohloff equipped
trike standards. Having a non-hub motor is probably a better bet, but still
non-trivial to add.

(On a bike you could just put the motor in the front wheel.)

I hade a go on the various trice - very easy to lift a wheel with the
right technique on the Q, S and T. A dash of speed and rhythmic
steering at the right frequency will happily 'walk' the two front
wheels alternately. Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.

..d

There's a downhill turn on my commute where, when I'm coming home in the
small hours and there's nobody about, I'll happily lift a wheel in a fun
kind of way (though it wasn't fun the first time I did it).

I've only ever actually tipped the trike when deliberately travelling
downhill and sideways on ice.

--
Mark, UK
"Nothing sets a person up more than having something turn out just the
way it's supposed to be, like falling into a Swiss snowdrift and seeing
a big dog come up with a little cask of brandy round its neck."

My parents had friends who were racing tricycle tandemists, and my dad
certainly managed to capsize one of their solo trikes when taking it out
for a spin.

--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

I ride an XL NT, which is one of the lower trices, though it has a
slightly narrower track, so is slightly less stable.

It's reasonably easy to lift the inside wheel on a turn, but it's
never surprised me - it all happens quite progressively and you just
shift your weight a bit and back down it goes. In fact, the last
sharp bend before home on my evening commute has a pothole on the apex
of the bend, and I gain strange satisfaction from gliding over it with
the wheel neither dropping in nor lifting off the line of where the
road surface would be - it's very easy to get a feel for what the
weight on the wheels is doing.

As Alistair says, you can also lift a wheel deliberately if you want -
turn and lean the 'wrong' way. For some reason, having lifted the
right wheel, I can ride pretty much indefinitely on two wheels
leaning left (a bit over a mile is probably the furthest I've done -
but then I ran out of traffic-free road), but I can't ride on just the
right and back wheel - though I haven't tried all that hard.

Regarding falling out - only once, when doing handbrake turns on ice
and running out of ice.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

The first time was a surprise to me, after that I'd occaisionally try
to lift a wheel when cornering.

I've not tipped mine yet, no doubt it'll happen sometime. Sadly not
for a few weeks as it has been packed away while the extension is
being built and there is no way to get it out.
--
Cheers
the.Mark

Bollards... examples here - in concrete and metal

http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/January2005.htm

Bollocks...

Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the dangly
objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the middle ;-)

Cheers, helen s

You wouldn't catch me trying that. I managed to put both my front wheels
out of true just by normal [1] commuting [2]. Though I have had Speedy on
two wheels by mistake on several occasions: the first time I put my hand out
instinctively and realised the tarmac was more abrasive than I thought!

[1] albeit enthusiastic.
[2] in Edinburgh, where "historic preservation" means they're doing a great
job of getting rid of those newfangled bits of smooth tarmacadam.

Becky

What, even in a UK newsgroup? Dooby sirius!
Try uk.rec.sheds - its all explained there.

You know when Americans say "shoot", well its a similar sort of idea.
Unless it's street furniture and cobblers.

Levverige your synergy, or whatever it is you guys say ;)

--

JimP

" " - John Cage

It never occurred to me that my Stealthmachine really was "the Dark Side"
personified. It just looked cool in black, that's all! Now as for that
light sabre, I could've used one this afternoon on that
must-overtake-that-cyclist car driver, who promptly reached the tail end of
a queue about three seconds before I did.

Becky

Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would you
want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking her.

A woman who is not saintly is worse than an honest whore. In case Helen does
not know it, ALL men hate whores. So she should strive to elevate her
conversation here on RBM. After all, there are some gentlemen present and
at least one Great Saint (Myself).

Women cyclists should be above reproach at all times. They should model
themselves after Our Blessed Virgin Mary and strive not to be whores and
bitches. Despite everything she may have heard to the contrary, we men do
not really like whores and bitches. We want women to be holy and saintly
like we are.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

But you sail don't you Simon? Piece of cake. Just yell "ready about"
as you go round a corner and your stoker hangs out over the back
wheel.

Tim

They're slow up hills. And slower then a bike in general (except
perhaps downhill).

But it's space that is the big downside, some get through doors, some
don't. And when riding, you take up more space on the road, although
people typically give me lots more space on my trike.

But they're alot of fun. Try one, you'll like it.

Rich

The thing I found about about conventional trikes is that even if you're
consciously trying to steer them around corners they won't listen unless
you let the weight transfer to the outside wheel, which is
counterintuitive to bicyclists. They are easy to get up on two wheels
if you want to, and can be ridden just like an ordinary two wheeler :-)

What struck me about the early Trice I rode was that I was really aware
of the road camber, and the rocking caused by the front wheels going
over bumps. I suppose you get used to it after a while.

I can't remember, is your own bent bi or tri?

EFR
Ile de France

Totally unnecessary. You asked a question: you got a very reasonable
response, Mr Dolan. I think you owe helen s an apology.

---
IanH

> "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com> wrote in message

Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the concept
of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word, uncouth. But
what can one expect, given that they live so far from civilisation?

;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

Mine is a bike (an HP Velotechnik Streetmachine GT). I've ridden a few
trikes but to be honest there isn't anything screaming out to me as
better than a bike and some things seem worse, but as you can gather
from the folk that choose trikes and who happen to find them more fun
that's something for you to decide.

I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent trike
without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as proof.

I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.

Just another in a /very/ long line of cases of Mr. Ed proving the
utility of killfiles, especially ones with him in them.

That's no way to talk about the English!

..d

Look at the Newsgroups line. This thread is not only in a UK newsgroup.

A

Surely if there's nothing under the BB to catch your feet if they slip, you
need clipless to avoid leg suck, which can be rather nasty on a trike, I
guess.

A

If you /need/ it, that implies anyone without who's ever had a foot slip
off the pedal has had their feet sucked under. I very much doubt this
is a universal case, so I retain the view that *needing* clipless is an
overstatement, even though I would suggest it.

Peter Clinch wrote:

Yes, of course its "possible' , but definintely not advisable.
It is extremely risky if the feet slip off the pedals and the lower legs get
caught by the cross bar. 'SNAP'.

I would highly recommend some form of foot restraint for *any* 'bent trike
where there is a risk of the feet dropping to the ground.

John B

> I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish

Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.

OTOH, for me at least that would be a conclusive argument against a
recumbent _bike_, since I could expect to topple out at every stop.

EFR
Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France

I've only managed to get the Trice XXL on two wheels once, and that by
accident - looking over my right shoulder to check whether the road I'd
just passed was "2nd R Hoe Lane" while negotiating a downhill left-
hander (it wasn't). That's unless you count hitting a speed hump with
the right wheel while doing 70 km/h. Scary, that.

I /did/ manage to roll the Windcheetah by overshifting at the back.
Chain into rear wheel, lock up, skid, flip, slide down bus lane outside
Holloway Prison wearing trike for a hat. TWFKAML markedly
unsympathetic, asking only whether Christmas-present-from-in-laws jersey
was damaged (it wasn't).

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Drugs are good, except when they kill you.

Definitely faster downhill. I even caught Dave Kahn on a descent
towards the end of last year's Stonehenge 200, though didn't have quite
enough hill to overtake. On a level road I can usually keep up with the
the majority of the average Audax field; on uphills even the loons
riding 104" fixed on Scenic events will drop me like a radioactive rock,
but when we get to the finish of a 400, it's not me complaining about a
sore arse :-)

When I had my new Shedde designed, I made sure The Architect specified
the larger of the two standard door sizes. This allows the trike in
without having to tip it to one side, though I do have to fold the
mirrors in.

Three blind mice, see how they run. Is this /really/ the best way to
test shampoo?

You can find shoes/sandals that are quite resonable for general use
during a tour. Our week long Northern Scotland tour in summer 2004 I
didn't take any footwear apart from my SPuD sandals.

Less of an issue on a bike than a tadpole trike though. If you're on a
reasonably high 'bent bike then you'd really have to /try/ in order to
suffer from leg-suck. I routinely go down bumpy stuff on the
Streetmachine deliberately unclipped, as the height of the seat and lack
of a forward crossbar to run your foot over simply make it a non-issue.
On a compact like the HP Velotechnik Spirit standard pedals wouldn't
offer any problem at all, I'd think.
A delta trike with a relatively high seat like the Hase Ketweisel or
Lepus would be relatively hard to destroy your feet on in this way too,
and would work better than a Trice with normal pedals IMHO. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/hase.shtml for more details.

Pedal clips are quite a bit harder to get both in and out of than
locking "clipless" systems like SPuDs, though they're certainly not for
everyone.

I'm horribly spoiled in that respect. I have 12 sq m of locked stall in
the underground garage of my residence, and of course no cage to take up
any of that space. Compensates for living in a skanky suburb rather than
one of those swooshy arrondissements where everyone reads Libération.

EFR
Ile de France

On a trike you've got forever to engage your clipless mechanism of choice,
since you can do it while sitting still.

And spds in sensible shoes/sandals are fine to walk in, even on cobbles.

cheers,
clive

Thanks for the link. More things to drool over past my lunch hour! ;°>

So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?

EFR
Ile de France

What are spds?

EFR
Ile de France

As others have said, you can get "normal" looking shoes/sandals that
work with clipless pedals.

On the other hand, on our semi recumbent tandem (front is recumbent,
rear is upright), I've fitted loops of shock cord (elasticated thin
rope) for my ever growing son to rest his heels in. We have short toe
clips as well, and this combination has proved very effective. It was
brought about by his feet slipping off the pedals, him tumbling to the
ground, nearly getting squashed by the tandem and breaking his collar
bone.

Tim

Well, what do you expect? None of you upper-crust types showed up in
time for that tea party we threw a few years back...where's your sense
of nobbly-ness obligay?

Best,

Dan <doffs coonskin cap>

Shimano SPD, one of the more popular clipless pedal mechanisms. It's aimed
at mountain bikers rather than roadies, so you can actually walk in the
shoes.

Single wheel drive uses more normal bike bits. To me the shape of a low
tadpole looks right in the way that a delta doesn't - body low between the
wheels. Not at all sure about deltas steering more easily - my experience of
a Greenspeed GTT (tadpole tandem) was that steering was an absolute doddle.

I'd say you need to go and try them.

cheers,
clive

Is Ed Dolan English? From his crudity I had assumed he was a Merkin.

;; when in the shit, the wise man plants courgettes

Steering will be very much down to the particular implementation, rather
than necessarily better on one or the other. The tadpoles I've ridden
(HPVel Scorpion and a Windcheetah) weren't in any particularly obvious
sense hard to steer.

A tadpole into a corner at speed will tend to have weight thrown over
the outside front wheel, rather than empty space, so with all else equal
they should corner a bit better at speed. Though as stated before, as
long as you bother to lean into the bend it shouldn't be a problem.

The transmission on a tadpole is simpler as you have one central driven
wheel. On a delta you either have one wheel transmission (like the
basic Kettwiesel, which is right hand drive) or you need a differential
(as on the Kettwiesel Ride), or you do a poor job on it!

It's not so much that the Kettweisel is a delta as its particular layout
and setup, but with left and right brakes with the rider right over the
axle, you get /enormous/ brake steer: use both together or you'll change
direction! This can make deliberate handbrake turns good fun, but it
might be an issue for, say, signalling nd braking together. Well
developed tadpoles like the Trice have practically no brake steer.

As usual with most recumbents, getting hung up over the particular
configuration is something a lot of people do but for not much gain.
Shortlist a selection of anything that seems it /might/ do your job and
test ride, and *then* decide. Decisions based on paper to choose
something you've little or no experience of aren't necessarily going to
be sound.

Pete.

That's because you a) didn't use boiling water and b) didn't put the
milk in first.

No self-respecting Englishman would go to a tea-party where they cannot
make tea properly.

..d

On trikes, I gather that slippage of foot from pedal typically leads to a
very badly borken ankle. I'd suggest that implies the cleats are
*necessary*.

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605

The tadpole is a lot more stable when braking. It also makes the
drive-train much simpler.

Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Didn't get the joke then. Check for smiley. The poster was not specific
about whether he was referring exclusively to newsgroups, and anyway
neither newsgroup is an only US newsgroup.

Maybe I should have rolled over and said "well well well, lovely old job
I dare say, I'll knock it on the 'ead then guvnor, an' tell the ovver
Europeans (at the top of my voice, so they unnerstand, like, wot wiv
them speakin' forrin 'n' all) that they orta speak US Engerlish too". ;)

Vive la difference!

IGMC
--

JimP

SOWISE - Snot oomerous when I splain's em.

> Is Ed Dolan English?

There are doubts about his being human....

From Minnesota. I can assuse the House that there /are/ decent people in
Minnesota, despite this example.

I've got him kill-filed for most groups but not u.r.c yet. If certain
damn fools didn't keep cross-posting helmet arguments to and from r.b.t
and a.r.b.r he wouldn't appear here at all.

He does seem to be getting nastier than when I last had the misfortune to
read his ravings.

Mike

On a bike, if your foot drops off the pedal it might hit the ground and be
dragged back, but your leg won't then be hit from behind by the crossbar
between the two front wheels of a tadpole trike.
And finding a bike that isn't "with a high-ish bottom bracket relative to
seat" is easier than finding a trike that isn't.

There are alternative methods of foot support available - on a trike you
can do up traditional clips without worrying about falling over if you
don't release them quick enough, or you could use something like the
"Pedals with hook" shown at:
http://www.hasebikes.com/ens/reha/index.php?show=zub&bike=reha

I find them necessary for any trip over a couple of km, simply because
my legs tire if only supported from the hips. This is on a bike with BB
higher than seat though. Perhaps if I'd always ridden 'bents without
clipping in I'd have developed the necessary thigh muscles to hold my legs
up, but as I've always used clips & straps (since 1961) or spd-alikes
(since 1997) I see no point.

Mike

A Kettwiesel can be turned in practically its own length by turning the
front wheel at very nearly 90 degrees (possibly even at 90 degrees so
long as the drive wheel is on the outside of the turn), which you can't
do with a tadpole. That's a very special case of "steer more easily" though,
and not often relevent.

Only for values of "slip" where your foot hits the road and subsequently
gets run over. Since you're pushing /forwards/ and not down this will
require a degree of contrivance. Not unforseeable contrivance, granted.

My foot slipped off the pedal on Mark's Windcheetah (not that surprising
given his pedals and my sandals had different systems, and the whole
thing was too small for me). I didn't break (or scratch) an ankle...

And it only works at practically zero speed. OTOH, what works at
/higher/ speed is jamming on one of the brakes but not the other and
doing the cycling equivalent of a handbrake turn! ;-) Doesn't work on a
Trice as they've rather boringly and quite deliberately worked on it so
that sort of thing doesn't happen. Bah!

We couldn't possibly have put milk in first, last, or concurrently;
some right evil sods had taxed us so heavily that we could no longer
affford to keep cows...

As far as the boiling goes, I concede the point; however, you may have
been even more upset with us, has we set your ships ablaze in order to
heat the Harbor to a sufficiently roiling boil...

Best,

Dan

They do a bit. Not much, but enough to make the approach to a downhill
right-hander a tad unnerving when only the left brake is working.

Guess how I know this :-(

A *National* Socialist Government did you say, Mr. Chaplin?

If one is unlucky, thobut, it can catch on the ground and get folded
under the leading edge of the seat. I have heard of a couple of borken
legs resulting from this kind of mishap.

If you want a bicycle, buy a bicycle. If you want something that folds,
buy a deckchair.

Well you know what the difference between the USA and a pot of yoghurt is
don't you? If you where to leave a pot of yoghurt outside for 200 years
it would develop a culture ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Personally I've got a pair of Shimano MT90s, and other than their sole
being somewhat more rigid than normal shoes they're perfectly fine for
general walking about in (ie: they wouldn't be my first choice of shoe to
walking into town in, but it wouldn't be any problem to use them) :-

http://tinyurl.com/ql8se

As for pedals, for a trike I reckon I'd go with pedals that have a
clipless mechanism on one side and an ordinary flat on the other. I
currently use these on my Grasshopper, however for trike I'd probably add
powergripsto the flat side.

http://tinyurl.com/l8fab

***WHOOOOOSH*****

Given that the Scots took over the UK crown and seem to have
successfully colonised most of the powers of state.. and that you are
not English and live in the other place..

It was a joke, OK!

..d

Though if you are not used to the steering on a Windcheetah and try
stonking it hard (across the meadows at the last EIHPV meet) there is
a certain point where your pedal stroke and the steering resonate - as
Jon Senior and I found out at about the same time side by side.

And it can be lots of fun ;-)

..d

Are you sure about that? My understanding was that you were getting an awful
lot of the benefits of government without paying anything towards it.

So does a 3-point turn, or getting off and lifting it up, which are the
typical alternatives in the sort of situation where that sort of turn
is really useful.

Doesn't a KMX do that sort of thing, if you want a brake-steer tadpole?

Hush your mouth, sir! I know what I was taught in grade school, and I
won't hear anything different!

Best,

Dan

No, clipless aren't a problem, as you can get shoes with cleats on sole
which are perfectly possible to walk normally in. There's millions of
cyclists around the globe doing just that :-)

One of the many joys of my 'bent trike, Mr Norbert Frosty, is that you don't
have to remember to unclip before stopping, as being a trike, you stay
upright in one's mobile deckchair, in comfort, whether stationary or moving.

Cheers, helen s

> EFR
> Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France

Depends on overall design, not whether one is tadpole or delta. My Ice T is
a tadpole design and the steering is incredibly easy and also steady and
sound. The steed goes where I want it to go easily and reliably. I can
literally steer it with one finger of each hand. It's a lovely beastie.

Cheers, helen s

It does for me. Have you tried it?

Get a decent speed up, lean well forward (get you body over the cross
bar) and brake hard on one wheel. I find that wheel locks, the other
rolls, and teh bike slices round 'till you're facing about 90 degrees
from where you were. If you still have any speed at this point it
becomes a bit dicey, but I haven't killed myself yet.