Was "Steves Power Toys"

So how useful is this meter. Well if you are in the business of doing
energy audits for existing electrical use they can be very useful.

If you want to know what a planned system will run, well, that is a
different thing altogether. In this case you will need to use your head
a bit. Just try to convince your electrical goods retailer to allow you
to run a product on his shelves for a week so you can see what it uses.

See the difference.

Wayne, Steve and others like them, go out and buy an appliance, take it
home plug it in then test it.

This is the use of a toy. What good is knowing the damage after you have
spent your money.

Designers are more often than not faced with a house plan on paper. The
owner has no idea what they want to run as this is really going to be
based on price. Hell most of them donšt know where they want power
points or lights. Half the time you show up at a place in the bush where
the people have been living with a gas lamp and candles. No meter in the
world will help you there.

Steve et-al would say just measure what they have in the house now.
Sounds good right .

Wrong

What good is it to measure their ten year old fridge or dish washer.
They are not likely to want to take them to a new house. Yes yes I know,
they may do so, but it will only be a stop gap until they can replace
them with new. But this only makes any measurements void anyway.

This is why Wayne installed a system then had to double it to make it
work. You canšt design with fictional numbers. And he still canšt tell
you how he arrived at two days autonomy for his system. Dispite a
claimed nine years of data.

Does not seem that the Kill-A-Watt has been put to a good use there.

A Kill-A-Watt meter is a tool that is used for a job. That job is not to
see what a fool you have been to buy that appliance without doing your
home work.

Or maybe it is. As you can see this is what Steve and Wayne use it for.

"George Ghio" <gh...@netconnect.com.au> wrote in message
news:ghio-47731D.1...@news.chariot.net.au...

<bandwidth saver enacted>

> The main use of the Kill-a-watt for me would be, in case if I am
> running home off the generator, to see the quality of the power from
> the comfort of my home. I would look at volts and hertz and that would
> give me an idea whether the generator is overloaded, etc. It is also
> useful for testing military surplus generators that I occasionally
> sell, and hope to buy and sell more of.
>
> i

Nice when tools make you money, eh.

In article <z97Ed.111773$K7.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,

LOL There can't be more than one "consultant" who'd waste that much
time defending a decision to do without such a basic tool. So yes,
it's his own work. Too bad he couldn't even finish the first sentence
without a blunder (I don't own a Kill A Watt, I do have a WattsUp and
a Fluke 337). I especially liked the part about "auditing"
yet-to-be-purchased appliances for use in the bush. But he's right
about one thing... a clamp meter is going to be a lot easier to hook
up to a candle than a Kill A Watt. :-)

Wayne

>

I think it is fair to say a KaW is a useful device to help a consumer make
informed choices about where to invest in energy conservation. You are
absolutely correct, you can't connect a KaW to a paper home filled with paper
appliances.

George, you seem to have some good ideas to share with the group. You
could far more effectively pass them along if you were to give up on the
personal attacks.

Vaughn

True. Nor can you connect George's clamp-on meter to paper appliances.
First George says his clamp-on is just as good as a kill-a-watt and that he
prefers his clamp-on meter over the kill-a-watt.

Then he berates anyone that plans on using a kill-a-watt to plan/design a
new home (which, as far as I can tell, noone but George has suggested). But
the same would be true of anyone trying to use a clamp-on to plan/design a
new home. Yet George doesn't consider that in his argument. What good is a
clamp-on meter in designing a new home George?

Face it, a kill-a-watt is a useful tool to monitor power and measure
appliance energy usage. Nothing more, nothing less. If you have a clamp-on
that comes with a nice plug interface for appliances, and watt-hour
function, it's the same thing. If you have to go around breaking open
circuit boxes to measure current on one side of the line and 'guesstimating'
the number of hours an appliance runs each month, then you're worse off.

If the whole house is on paper and you have to guess appliance load and
usage, you're in the least desirable position.

Of course, if price is not a consideration, then you can buy some very nice
data-logging equipment that can monitor each appliance and its usage to a
very high degree. Download it to a PC and 'analyze it to death'. If price
is not a consideration. But for those that are on limited budgets, the
~$30US Kill-A-Watt is a pretty nice tool for the money.

daestrom

Nope that does not make two days Autonomy for your system. BAck on the
moped for you boyo.

That is correct. This is because the Kw will not do the job on a service
call that the clamp on will do. Mainly high amps on the battery side of
a system.

Well when you go back and read th post again you will find that it says

Which seems to have covered your concern.

A month. Are you mad. You would go back to Nicks design by averages.

No. You are in the most desirable position. This is the time to design
your renewable energy system to integrate fully with the house design.

Oh yeah, Never guess. Go and get the information.

Nah. just use a decent data logging reg for the system

George

A clamp meter can't do everything an energy meter like the KaW does,
and vice versa. It's not an either-or situation, you need both.

No, it doesn't. First, you've left out the other half. Second, are you
saying that in all your years of "consulting", you've never had need
of a device to log the energy use of individual appliances without
having to stand there and take notes?

Gawd what a weasel.

How do you "design" the system without *knowing* the loads? Why do you
continue to use the word "audit", when clearly your habit is to make
*estimates* using someone else's data?

Let's see how that works for you... imagine that a customer's demands
include three cycles each per week of these two appliances -

Splendide 2000 clothes washer/dryer, medium spin, normal wash, high
heat, 60 minutes drying.

Asko 1385 dishwasher, light wash, heated dry, 150F water supply.

Now, without a KaW, WattsUp, Brand, etc., exactly *where* will you "go
and get" the information?

DJ described how he uses a little of his time, and a half dozen KaWs
to audit a customer's appliances. Please explain how you'd accomplish
the same thing using a data logging regulator.

Wayne

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

Our current TV (about twelve years old), which pre-dates us going off
grid, when powered on, wants you to program the channels via the
remote. Basically, you see a big #3 in the middle of the screen. You
also have to adjust the brightness. So, everytime we turn the thing on,
ya gotta grab the remote, press [program] to make the 3 go away, and
adjust the brightness. Pain in the butt. Next TV will be better,
probably a LCD, too...

DJ

Nah, you really only need a good amp meter.

Yep, that's about it really. Except that there is no need to stand
around taking notes.

You want to get to the heart of the problem you go to the heart of the
system, the batteries and measure what goes in or out at the batteries.

And ya know what? If you have an appliance with a dodgy power factor it
shows up here. What the inverter draws from the batteries is your true
use of energy, and the most important as the batteris are a finite
energy source in that they only hold so much.

A system designed on average energy use will perform at an average level
on average days.

Well you start with the manual, usually the last page, and see what it
uses. Now it maybe that the US allows this information to be BS but out
here this has never been a problem.

All my systems (designed and installed me) work to their design specs.

I never have to double them to get them to work and the days of autonomy
are true and correct, without resorting to reduced loads.

So Wayne, How did you gget your two days of autonomy. Nine years of
data? In your dreams. You changed your site from 3 days to 2 days in
line with my figures.

Gawd, what a weasel.

Different job.
>
> Wayne
>

Now you say five minutes will do.

Which is it?

In article <CAAEd.22893$Xs6....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,

PULLEEASE!

Use the Electric Meter on the side of their house and get a total load.
These appliance's figures are well published in charts and well known to any
electrical designer worth his/her salt. Does it really matter? trying to
sell a smaller system? Nobody would ever hire you to down-sell their
product.

"wmbjk" <wmbjk@REMOVE_THIScitlink.net> wrote in message
news:eg35u0pl5rnqgnpsh...@4ax.com...

news:ghio-ABF7E4.1...@news.chariot.net.au...

Don't forget the filament preheat used on a lot of sets now. It's a
'phantom' load. When they keep the TV tube's filament warmed up, the set
lights up quicker. An added benefit is that the tube actually lives longer,
as stress is reduced during power up.

Sorta like the frequency of off/on heating/cooling in bulbs and radio tubes.

mike

In article <41e3390a$1...@newsfeed.slurp.net>,

Gymy Bob wrote:

> I am glad we agree on all that.

He didn't agree with you. He DISAGREED with you and then told you WHY you
were wrong.

mike

A few GymyBobisms..New additions daily:
======================================
(some bracketed text added for clarification)

You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go fuck yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. (referring to Outlook Express)

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or
something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.(referring to a
capacitor)

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.
"m II" <C...@In.The.Hat> wrote in message news:CuHEd.17829$06.11900@clgrps12...

DJ wrote:

mike

DJ

How do you explain the fact that not a single poster agrees with that
position? Do you imagine that all those who buy and use energy meters
have wasted their money?

Then your experience is more limited than most of those who post here.
Geez, even Gymy Bob has a KaW.

Unless you have perfect memory, there is *no* way to measure the
energy consumption of a variable load by using a clamp meter *without*
taking notes.

Yes, that can sometimes work. Those times would be when your clients
already *have* the system you're supposedly "designing", and don't
mind having all their other appliances shut off in order to
accommodate your handicap.

There's a certain logic there - install the system and appliances
first, *then* take the measurements at the battery for maximum
accuracy... How does that work on the half of the clients you
mentioned who are in the bush using candles and gas lamps?

Yet curiously it will also perform at a below-or-above average level
on non-average days. Perhaps m ll will start a Ghioisms list...

And you would call that what... a "manual audit"? The information for
those two appliances is *not* in the manual. And detailed information
isn't in the manual for most appliances, which is one of the main
reasons that tools like KaWs exist. But just for fun, why don't you
show us the listed energy use per configuration for any clothes washer
and dishwasher of your choosing, or the figures and configurations for
any models you've "audited" in the past.

>Different job.

No, it's the same task as auditing *any* client's appliances, which is
the starting point for a competent design. The only difference is that
DJ invested a few bucks to save time and enhance his professionalism,
while you waste time to advertise your limitations and mislead the
newbies.

Wayne

In the construction trade, we call those 'as built' drawings ;-).
DJ

While a handy gadget will tell you what the load and the average
load/consumption was over so many hours, it will not tell you when it
happens or what the peak load was for the appliance or circuit. This is
called load profile, and can only be done with a recording device such as a
clamp-on or more sophisticated equipment (mass memory meter) that will give
you a load profile on say a 1,2 5 or 15 minute integration period. This is
the only way, I repeat the ***ONLY*** way to determine a customers peak load
profile.

or

Do you just size all your copper to the customer based on a 400A draw and
install the top of the line expensive copper, batteries and equipment with
a warning to "Never use it because you have to economize now. The system
can't handle it"? Do you like bending 650MCM copper?

What happens when your customer turns on their 4000W clothes dryer, the
furnace kicks in and the fridge and freezer compressors all start
simultaneously? Pop goes the weasel! Do you move out of town or do you run
back for free because you forgot to do your homework based on the equipment
you don't have? I know, you yell at the customer for being such a
know-it-all Moron II (anybody can do wiring) electrical idiot.

news:s1n7u05susul179mf...@4ax.com...

True enough. But, thing is, you gotta add fudge factor there, too.
Sure, in a week, you get a good estimate logging. Then you design a
system, and a week and a half later, they decide to make hot-air
popcorn while they wait for the crock pot to be done, and one of them
spills the kernels in the carpet, so they yank the 15amp super vac out
of the basement ;-).
My clients, they generally get the "there's a new sheriff in town"
speech, telling them what is, and what is not, cool anymore ;-). But my
clients are probably different from what you're used to seeing, in that
they are generally looking to reduce drastically, bring electricity
into somewhere it wasn't, or switch from grid to alternative, so
they're open to stuff like that. And if that fails, again, as I said
below, they get my "Sure, you can keep it, but it's gonna cost ya"
speech ;-).

Well, to be honest, most times, when I tell clients what an electric
dryer, forced air furnace with AC blowers, or AC refrigerator costs
them in increased inverter capacity, battery bank, and generation
infrastructure, often, they become more open to alternatives ;-).
Sometimes not, of course, but often.

Every client is different, of course!
And I've got a cool little bender for 4/0 and such ;-).

DJ

We have a propane (soon to be methane) dryer fridge, stove, and water
heater. We heat with wood.

Nonsense. That plate has no way of knowing how many hours of TV the user
watches in a week. What do you do, ask them to keep detailed logs of how
many hours of TV/radio, how many loads of laundry on the 'gentle' cycle vs.
the 'normal' or 'permanent press'? Or just ask them to 'have a guess'?

Your precious plate will tell you the dishwasher draws 11.8 amps. But it
doesn't mention that it draws that only if the home-owner uses the 'heated
drying' feature, and only for that part of the cycle. If they let them
air-dry, then the most drawn is a completely different number from the
plate. Not to mention just how many loads a week are run.

Haven't seen a compliance plate yet that tells you how many minutes the
coffee pot takes to make a 1/2 a pot. You go around with a stop watch and
log book, following the users around to record just how long they have their
computer on each day of the week? Or for that matter, when using a
crock-pot on medium, does your compliance plate tell you how often the
thermostat cycles the heater on/off when the counter top it's sitting on is
at 65F??

You can get the maximum rated power rating from the compliance plate. But
that is a far cry from the actual energy usage unless your customers leave
all appliances on all the time. And nothing cycles on/off.

daestrom

"So how useful is this meter. Well if you are in the business of doing
energy audits for existing electrical use they can be very useful."

That's what I use it for. More play than serious homepower work. But
FWIW, I was playing at programming this evening and recast a couple of
the calculations I use with my Kill-A-Watt as PHP:

http://www.odograph.com/experiments/php/kilowatt.php

and

http://www.odograph.com/experiments/php/instantkwh.php

and

http://www.odograph.com/experiments/php/dutycycle.php
pretty basic ... but they might have some occasional use

"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:41e4847a$1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...

Wow, do we have another Gymy Bobism?

"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105503485....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

You sure seem well informed of my activities despite having plonked me weeks
ago. Your childish alter ego Larry Lix must be keeping you informed. I hear
he goes away if you take your medication regularly.

Before I forget...show me the *****650 MCM***** wire size you keep talking
about in the Electrical Code book. Mine has 600, 700 and 750 **kcmil**.
NOTHING in between. That's Tables 1 through 4..

You DO have a Code Book..don't you?

mike

--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##

We need less morons like another clone of Moron II here. ##My fifteen
minutes of FAME!##

You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
the transformer neutral.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

Children are venerially created.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

What is a PMW?

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
can but I would never hire them given a choice.

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

Enlighten please (like it really matters...LOL)

A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.

That's why you need a brain.

All my systems work as designed.

All my call outs are for systems others have designed/installed.

Half of design is intuition the rest is experiance.

I am good at it.

Sorry if that bothers you.

There is nothing hard about design.

No black art as some would have their customers believe.

That plate is always there in this country. The fact that you don't have
this protection in the US shows what the country has fallen to.

The maximum draw is the information you want. Intelligence is what make
it useful.

But then you bought a bloody great gen set. Says it all dosen't it.

In article <urSEd.134381$Uf.5...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,

You can't even tell us how you get two days autonomy.

For your system the most you could draw from your system without risk of
damage is 11.5kWh /day.

Start with say 1200 Ah of batteries (@24V)

Choose a maximum depth of discharge. Say 80% for this exercise.

So 1200 Ah X .8 = 960

As can be seen this leaves us 960 Ah to use.

If your daily load is 11.5 kWhs then you would have 2 days autonomy.

This is fully 3.5kWh less than your average load.

Your best bet is to stay out of things you don't understand.

http://www.askousa.com/customercare/planetearth.php#dishwasher

Asako D3120
Heating 1200 Watts
Max Load 1300 Watts

D3120 kWh/year 310 or 850 Watts/day

5 minutes and I never left my chair.

This info is there for all to find. In fact the Asko site provides a lot
of info about their products.

You really are hopeless.

In article <s1n7u05susul179mf...@4ax.com>,

>> >> Let's see how that works for you... imagine that a customer's demands

>>George Ghio <gh...@netconnect.com.au> wrote:

>Your best bet is to stay out of things you don't understand.

850 Watts per day huh? Disregarding your incorrigible use of creative
units, and because you haven't provided any useful info for either
appliance, your 5 minutes in the chair was poorly spent, and must be
added to the time you've already wasted adverstising your
nitwittedness in this thread. At a minimum...

1. wrong model.
2. information submitted is not referenced to the settings specified,
nor any settings at all.
3. Your "audit" doesn't even include the number of cycles it's based
on.

You may now proceed to the Energy Star site to get the details on
their measurement standards, and attempt to reinterpret the
consumption numbers to match the sample settings I provided...so that
you might finally learn why that's ineffective. Or you could just
admit that *auditing* appliance energy use cannot be done by perusing
manuals.

BTW, there are 5 Asko models on the chart you cited. Their energy
consumption ranged from 222 to 310 kWh per year, a substantial
difference. None were the correct model, yet you chose to quote the
highest number, without regard to which model would make the most
suitable comparison. IOW, you've not only pursuing the bizarre
argument that an online resource is a proper substitute for direct
measurement, but you even found a way to make the worst possible use
of that resource.

Wayne

LOL OK, so I was wrong. I thought you must be using a divining rod,
but I see that it's intuition.

True.

That "some" would be you. You just finished saying that "Half of
design is intuition". I guess you forgot.

BTW, on Ebay you could get about twenty bucks for a used Kill a Watt.
How much do you suppose your intuition would fetch?

Wayne

In article <l9dau0d23bec253nf...@4ax.com>,

When you can prove your claims on your site as to system performance I
will give you some respect. Untill then you will remain a git.

Nine years of data is your claim. Pity you don't know how to use it.

In article <chbau0t4t2bqv4pph...@4ax.com>,

Well then, why didn't you just post the consumption of the 1385,
referenced by settings if you believe that information is available,
instead of providing irrelevant specs for a different model? What's
the holdup, is this another "copyright" issue? You keep saying that
you can do "audits" without taking measurements, by "intuition" even,
yet when pressed on a couple of simple examples, offer nothing but
double-talk. The fact is that if a customer (and I don't believe you
have any) were to ask you for the same information, you couldn't offer
any more than the same silly games you've played in this thread. Which
is pretty dopey considering that so long as the customer could afford
$30 and had read Steve's initial post, then without any previous
experience or intuition <snorf>, could manage a task that you cannot.
Or more correctly, won't.

Wayne

Because you said:

I chose that one.

In article <t9abu09efmngtb405...@4ax.com>,

No 'black art', but you rely on 'intuition'?? That's contradictory.

'All my systems work as designed'. Fine, but does your 'design' meet the
customer's needs?

What if your customer wants to run the dishwasher an average of 10 times a
week instead of your intuitive guess of 7? Sure, your system delivers the
energy to run it 7 times ('as designed'), but the customer needs 10. Your
system delivers the energy designed for watching XX hours of television and
YY hours of computer usage a week. But your customer watches XX+10 hours a
week or computes YY+12 hour a week. You would still claim that your system
is working 'as designed'. Not what the customer needs, just what your
compliance plates and 'intuition' designed for.

I suspect your 'intuition' is to pad the system with a large safety margin
so your customer doesn't complain about performance. So you may be selling
a larger system than a *real* energy audit would dictate. Or you tell the
customer that the system was 'designed' to supply only 7 dishwashings a week
with XX hours of TV and the problem isn't in your 'design' but in how the
customer is using it.

daestrom

Never guess. Dosen't work. Guessing leads to a system like waynes where
you end up having to double it.