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Should insurers have to cover people with pre-existing conditions?

Should insurers have to cover people with pre-existing conditions?


  • Total voters
    63
Something like that might work, but I think a single-payer would be the best choice for Americans who can't afford private policies. There are pros and cons to both, but, in the long run, I don't like subsidizing private industry.

I guess catastrophic cases can be sent to the VA! :eek:
 
I guess catastrophic cases can be sent to the VA! :eek:

Depends, are we finally going to correct the age old mistake of making the VA health care budget discretionary spending?
If we go back to it being non-discretionary, then all we need to do is fit the budget to the needs, hire enough doctors and keep on building out expansion facilities.

But just so you know, that's socialized medicine.
It's socialized medicine at its very best in this country but that's what it is.
 
Yes, we need to protect people with pre-existing conditions, but NO the private insurance industry should not have to do so.

First, as I understand it, only the short-term policies, which only run one year, will be able to discriminate against pre-existing conditions. However, regular policies are STILL available so, in reality, no one is going to go without the ability to obtain coverage.

Second, in my opinion, we have to move away from private insurance if we're going to offer more complete care.

Pull all the subsidies away from the private insurers and use them in a single-payer plan for any American who chooses to sign up.

I think it's hilarious that you advocate single payer while religiously defending every word and policy coming out of Donald Trump's mouth. Some people put the cult of personality over even their own principles.
 
Should insurers have to cover people with pre-existing conditions?

My answer is "it depends."
  • If the insurer is willing and able to diversify its product offerings to include policies whereby the increased risk associated with classes of (or specific) pre-existing conditions is reflected in the policy pricing, sure the insurer can and should offer such policies. Doing so improves the insurer's ability to be "perfectly" monopolistically competitive, thus maximizing profit.

    And let's not kid ourselves, in the context of coverage costs and the risk insurers assume re: the extent of monetary outlays, even gender qualifies as a "pre-existing condition," for among comparably aged and healthy women and men, women avail themselves of more (costlier) covered medical services/care than do men. The consequence of that, as go group policies, is that men to some extent subsidize women's medical insurance premiums. Put another way, were there insurers that covered only men and only women, to obtain equivalent profit margins, the "women-only" insurer to charge higher premiums and obtain higher premium investment returns than would the "men-only" insurer because the actuarial expenditure risk profile of women (on the whole) is the more expensive one.

    Actuarial science, medicine and computing power are, these days, such that it's certainly possible for an insurer to structure it's policies so that customers are charged more and/or less in accordance with their medical history. There are a variety of reasons why an insurer might not offer such highly "tailored" policies. Among those reasons, the public's preference for group policies rather than individual policies is a major one. The costs and benefits of doing so is another: it's uneconomic to offer great degrees of precision/stratification in policy pricing if there aren't enough potential buyers having price and/or income elasticities of demand such that they will demand such policies and thereby compensate the firm for investing-in developing and maintaining costs at at such a low level of detail.

    It's not that it's too dear to develop and maintain the requisite risk metrics for any single pre-existing condition; it's that there are too damn many of them for which that'd need to be done, and the minute an insurer doesn't do so for "this" condition, it exposes itself to a different type of risk, the risk of being sued for discrimination, for which it'll have to incur legal costs to defend. Like it or not, one of the realities firms that use esoteric concepts and processes to produce customer-facing outcomes are at a distinct disadvantage in a courtroom because too few folks understand the details of advanced quantitative methods. That is what it is, but it is also the reason many deep-pocketed firms at times opt to settle rather than defend their positions at trial.
  • Should insurers be forced to offer the above described nature of risk-/price-stratified policies? Well, that depends on how the insurer presents itself and its offerings. If the firm presents itself as a "we cover it all/we have policies for 'everyone'" health insurer, yes, they should. If, on the other hand, the firm presents itself as a "niche" insurer, then to the extent a potential customer falls outside that niche, no.

    A firm is certainly entitled to declare itself as the insurer for, say, people lacking pre-existing conditions of certain natures. That's just a business decision the firm has made and there's no basis for denying a firm the right to thus structure itself.
So, should an insurer be required to cover people with pre-existing conditions? No, however, there should be, and provided there's profit to be made doing so, there would be insurers who will insure individuals having pre-existing conditions.
 
I think it's hilarious that you advocate single payer while religiously defending every word and policy coming out of Donald Trump's mouth. Some people put the cult of personality over even their own principles.

I think it's hilarious that you can't help but troll Trump on a thread about healthcare. The obsession runs deep in you, dude.
 
I think it's hilarious that you can't help but troll Trump on a thread about healthcare. The obsession runs deep in you, dude.

You bring up Trump in threads that have nothing to do with him all the time. I just don't understand why you're so incredibly supportive of him if his policies are so fundamentally opposed to yours? Does the obsession run deep in you?
 
You bring up Trump in threads that have nothing to do with him all the time. I just don't understand why you're so incredibly supportive of him if his policies are so fundamentally opposed to yours? Does the obsession run deep in you?

LOL -- No, I really don't. Rather, I bring up other presidents who did similar things in threads that set out to attack Trump -- you know, the ones that pretend he's doing something no one else has ever done.

But, I don't bring up Trump in threads that aren't about him. You just made that up.

A lot of my ideas are counter to Trump's ideas, such as healthcare, gay rights, and religion, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let silly attacks that are based on nothing stand unchallenged.

Interestingly enough, I didn't vote for Trump, and I changed my affiliation from Republican to "unaffiliated" in 2016, but you and those like you who are obsessed with destroying the US President do not appeal to any thinking person. So, when you make erroneous statements about Trump (or anyone), expect them to be challenged.

You've got yourself a cult going here -- a cult of people who want to undo Trump.

See reality for what is is and change before it's too late.
 
One can only hope this puts a death knell to his presidency, because it will surely result in the real-life deaths of those he's sworn to protect.

Wouldn't it also affirm the need for single payer? Lets get this over with.
 
”Should insurers have to cover people with Pre-existing conditions?

As private enterprises, no. But the consequences to public health and national security would be devastating.

That’s why healthcare cannot be left entirely up to the free market.
 
One would think this question was answered in the affirmative nearly a decade ago, but the GOP and the Trump administration have been working for a year and a half to reverse this requirement (despite mealy-mouthed protestations to the contrary).

First last year through their widely reviled "reform" bills that went down in flames, despite Trump's Rose Garden party for the House bill.

Experts: Pre-existing coverage in House GOP bill would fall far short
How the Senate's Health-Care Bill Would Cause Financial Ruin for People With Preexisting Conditions

Having failed in Congress, Trump turned to the regulatory apparatus this year:

Trump’s quiet campaign to bring back preexisting conditions


And now this week they're urging the courts to do the deed for them.

Trump administration move could take away coverage for preexisting conditions


So apparently the question is back in the political conversation: should people with pre-existing conditions be protected?

Should insurers have to cover people with pre-existing conditions?
Yes absolutely, I've seen first hand what happens when insurance companies are allowed to deny coverage for BS reasons. They did it to my dad and at times denied him totally coverage costing him thousands. Sometimes he couldn't get the treatment he needed and others he only got it when it turned into an ER situation, it was terrible. It was insanity, no doctors support the denial and paperwork to try and over turn it was crazy. Don't even get me started haha.
 
One would think this question was answered in the affirmative nearly a decade ago, but the GOP and the Trump administration have been working for a year and a half to reverse this requirement (despite mealy-mouthed protestations to the contrary).

First last year through their widely reviled "reform" bills that went down in flames, despite Trump's Rose Garden party for the House bill.

Experts: Pre-existing coverage in House GOP bill would fall far short
How the Senate's Health-Care Bill Would Cause Financial Ruin for People With Preexisting Conditions

Having failed in Congress, Trump turned to the regulatory apparatus this year:

Trump’s quiet campaign to bring back preexisting conditions


And now this week they're urging the courts to do the deed for them.

Trump administration move could take away coverage for preexisting conditions


So apparently the question is back in the political conversation: should people with pre-existing conditions be protected?

First, one must define a pre-existing condition - are age and tobacco use not pre-existing conditions?

Second, what level (percentage increase) of a premium rate hike (from the lowest possible level) is considered being protected?

I fail to see the distinction between allowing one's age to be used to triple one's premium cost and one's obesity (or alcoholism) being used to double (or triple) one's premium cost. When folks say pre-existing condition what they are referring to is an actuarial risk factor of which there are many and each has an effect on the risk, and therefore, cost of insuring those with such a condition.

Few see it as unreasonable (or unfair) for auto insurance companies to use variations among driving records and/or claims histories to set auto liability insurance premium rates. Although the expenses being covered are different, the concept of one's (individual) level of risk to others in the pool corresponding to one's (individual) premium rate makes sense - actuarial risk is a sound and logical basis for establishing different insurance premium rates.
 
It has nothing to do with empathy, and everything to do with how insurance works.

Then we need to change how insurance works. They aren't a bank, they are in the life and death business.
 
Here is the problem with discussing anything with people like you: You dont tolerate any disagreement or deviation from your rigid ideological position. You dont debate, you dismiss. Anyone who doesnt agree with your ironclad beliefs is a liberal/Marxist/socialist. There is no way forward from there.

Except I havent done that. Try honest debate on occasion.
 
One would think this question was answered in the affirmative nearly a decade ago, but the GOP and the Trump administration have been working for a year and a half to reverse this requirement (despite mealy-mouthed protestations to the contrary).

First last year through their widely reviled "reform" bills that went down in flames, despite Trump's Rose Garden party for the House bill.

Experts: Pre-existing coverage in House GOP bill would fall far short
How the Senate's Health-Care Bill Would Cause Financial Ruin for People With Preexisting Conditions

Having failed in Congress, Trump turned to the regulatory apparatus this year:

Trump’s quiet campaign to bring back preexisting conditions


And now this week they're urging the courts to do the deed for them.

Trump administration move could take away coverage for preexisting conditions


So apparently the question is back in the political conversation: should people with pre-existing conditions be protected?

You're asking two separate questions.

No.

and

If they should be protected, which is arguable, the private insurers are writing a risked based contract. Increase that riak means higher costs for everybody.
 
Should insurers have to cover people with pre-existing conditions?
Yes absolutely, I've seen first hand what happens when insurance companies are allowed to deny coverage for BS reasons. They did it to my dad and at times denied him totally coverage costing him thousands. Sometimes he couldn't get the treatment he needed and others he only got it when it turned into an ER situation, it was terrible. It was insanity, no doctors support the denial and paperwork to try and over turn it was crazy. Don't even get me started haha.

My question is - why should the pre-existing conditions of age or tobacco use be treated differently than the pre-existing conditions of obesity or alcoholism?

I agree that nobody should be denied coverage but that is not to say that nobody should be charged a different (higher) premium rate based on their (higher) actuarial risk relative to that of others in the pool of insured.
 
This question, as with all others in our system returns to the old adage; the golden rule: 'those with the gold will rule."


I was going to list all that I could think of, but it will be a shorter list if one was to list an issue that doesn't have a lobby and millions of dollars pushing legislation......

52 million spent per congressperson on lobbying.

They get what they pay for.
 
My question is - why should the pre-existing conditions of age or tobacco use be treated differently than the pre-existing conditions of obesity or alcoholism?

I agree that nobody should be denied coverage but that is not to say that nobody should be charged a different (higher) premium rate based on their (higher) actuarial risk relative to that of others in the pool of insured.

None of that should be under preexisting conditions, if they want to come up with a new system and punish say a drug abuser who spent years of thier life getting high and then trying to get insurance when he finally needs it that's an actual conversation they can have. When a person like my dad works his whole life but had to switch jobs and then they try to screw him over and in fact do, that's a disgrace.

Whats the alternative to the old terrible system? for my dad he would of had to stay at the first job he ever got with insurance basically forever.
 
Then we need to change how insurance works. They aren't a bank, they are in the life and death business.

Both banks and insurance companies are in the calculating risk business. Just as banks assign different loan interest rates based on risk insurance companies assign different premium rates based on risk.
 
My question is - why should the pre-existing conditions of age or tobacco use be treated differently than the pre-existing conditions of obesity or alcoholism?

I agree that nobody should be denied coverage but that is not to say that nobody should be charged a different (higher) premium rate based on their (higher) actuarial risk relative to that of others in the pool of insured.

or pre existing conditions like AIDS/HIV
Alzheimer’s/dementia
Arthritis
Cancer
Cerebral palsy
Crohn’s disease
Epilepsy
Hemophilia
Hepatitis
Kidney disease, renal failure
Lupus
Mental disorders (including Anxiety, Bipolar Disorder, Depression, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Schizophrenia)
Multiple sclerosis
Muscular dystrophy
Paraplegia
Paralysis
Parkinson’s disease
 
I think the people who answered yes to the poll question fail to understand what insurance is.Insurance is there in case something happens.Like auto insurance in case you crash into someone's car, home insurance in case you house catches fire, life insurance for when you die or renters insurance in case someone breaks into the place you are renting steals your property and so on. As far as I know you can not walk into any car insurance office on the planet with a crashed car an expect to walk out with new insurance and that crashed car paid for by the insurance company. You can not wait until your home burns down and then buy home owners insurance, nor can you die and then your spouse buys life insurance on you and the same thing with all other types of insurance. But yet people think you should be able to get medical insurance with an already existing medical condition and have that condition taken care of.

Which is why the insurance model is stupid.

Lots of pre-existing conditions are congenital.

I have asthma, for instance. I have insurance through my union, and I'll probably be here until I retire, it if I change jobs I won't be able to get covered or pay an exhorbitant amount. (Fortunately I live in San Diego so I can just go to Mexico for my meds like I did before I had insurance. Not everybody can do that. Some need actual medical attention.)

None of the things you mention are actually comparable to healthcare in the first place.

Everybody is gonna get sick or hurt at some point. And EVERYBODY is gonna get old and have health issues associated with aging.

Your car or house doesnt get coverage for age-related issues. Every car doesn't "crash" when it gets older. Every house doesn't "burn down" as it gets older.

People do.

Health insurance is an oxymoron.

Insurance is for what may happen.

Not for what certainly will.

Not for what you started out with at birth.
 
No they would not be taken into account. State insurance regulators have always put restrictions on what health insurance can take into account. Insurers have never been allowed to price in the full actuarial risk of smokers, the obese, poor health choices and so on. That is true whether you are talking about the individual market or group coverage. For example, has your employer ever charged anyone overweight or obese more? I doubt it. Even though they are a much higher risk the insurer. Any other kind of insurance, they would be charged more. They may not be charged as much more in a group plan as they would in the individual market, but they would still be charged much more (similarly, your 16 year old son's auto insurance is higher if he were to individually get insurance than if he were to be part of your plan which probably bundles your home with it. Yet, just the same, his portion of your overall premium is much higher than yours is.)

Property and casualty insurance always works by insuring an asset for the value of that asset. For example, your car is insured for the fair market value of that car. Your home is insured for the cost of rebuilding your home on the same land it sets on, plus the value of the assets in it. In the case of your vehicle, its a rapidly depreciating asset and thus its worth less every year, and the amount of money insurer will pay for it's repair before considering it a total loss is less every year. If health insurance worked like "real insurance", your body would be an asset insured to the value of that asset and no more. Someone that is highly paid and has a decade or more of work before retirement would have a very high value. In contrast, someone that was retired, lower paid, or a child would have a much lower value before they would be considered a total loss. That is how real insurance works. Moreover, that is how personal injury works. If you were to kill a child in a negligent accident, the settlement / judgement will be lower than if you were to kill a 38 year old heart surgeon in an accident. If you were to negligently kill an 85 year old in an accident, the eventual settlement / judgement will be much lower than if you were to kill a young professional. We allow courts to put a value on your life. We allow regulatory agencies to put a value on your life. We allow every form of insurance other than health insurance to put a monetary value on your life. We do not allow health insurance companies to do so and never have. That's why it isn't real insurance and never has been. It should have never been called insurance. It should have been called health plans or something else from the start.

I've no objection to you living your life any way you choose, provided you don't ask me to pay for it.

Why should I pay for your smoking, compulsive eating, et al?
 
I've no objection to you living your life any way you choose, provided you don't ask me to pay for it.

Why should I pay for your smoking, compulsive eating, et al?

What if you drive to fast? What if you are I a high risk profession, i.e. firemen, cop, construction...? What if...you have the gene that passes something on to your kids and you choose to have children regardless?
 
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