volts500 Conceeding

i will conceed that your interprepretation is widly accepted as long
as your willing to do the same!

after a bit of research into this, there are respected people stating
both ways we find acceptable.

with that said the NEC has cleared that up. i could pretend that i
knew this and was on firm ground when i said it, however that is not
the case. i firmly believed i was correct 100% and you were wrong 100%
they have ruled on it and the ruling does support my argument instead
of yours. that is happenstance.

my ticket came from hard work and working two jobs while in school to
get it for a 5 year apprenticship while supporting my wife, kid and
deadbeat inlaws. that ticket and my daughter were the only decent
thing to come from that time period, i was insulted by your cracker
jack comment and fired back.

here is a excerpt from the ruling and the link to the pdf file will be
enclosed at the bottom from the nfpa nec update.

the other rich

ps heres an electronic handshake!

Example: If a feeder supplies a continuous load of 130 amperes
and the overcurrent device and enclosure are listed for operation
at 100 percent of its rating then the overcurrent device is
permitted to be rated at 150 amperes. In this case the conductor
is permitted to be sized based upon an allowable ampacity not
less than 100 percent of the continuous load. If copper
conductors are used with 75°C insulation and terminations, the
maximum conductor size required would be AWG #1 which is
listed in Table 310-16 as 130 amperes. If the overcurrent device
had not been listed for 100 percent operation, the minimum
overcurrent device rating for this load would have been 175
amperes and the minimum conductor size would have been AWG
#2/0. This seems to be a wide difference in minimum conductor
size for the same identical load simply because one overcurrent
device is rated for 100 percent operation and the other is not.
PANEL ACTION: Accept in Principle.
Revise the exception in the existing Code to read as follows:
Exception: Where the assembly, including the overcurrent
devices protecting the feeder(s), is listed for operation at 100
percent of its rating, the allowable ampacity of the feeder
conductors shall be permitted to be not less than the sum of the
continuous load plus the noncontinuous load. In no case shall
the ampacity be less than the rating of the overcurrent device.”
PANEL STATEMENT: The panel has accepted the submitter's
recommendation relative to the use of “allowable” in the
exception. The submitter's wording can be interpreted to be
permissive relative to the minimum sizing compared to the
overcurrent device. As such, the panel has revised the exception
to accomplish the objective using clearer language.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 12
AFFIRMATIVE: 12

http://www.nfpa.org/PDF/A215-220.pdf?src=necdigest

This is the best you can do? Desperately rummaging through ROP's?

"REL" <rl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3eafd9f8...@news.earthlink.net...

because this is a discussion group comprised of professionals who
might be interested in the subject matter, i researched it. i did so
because i am considered quite good at it. this comes from when i was
moved into the engineering office specificly for that purpose for
electrical and special systems out of dallas tx, formerly known as
john d keys and associates. see i always follwed a very simple and
basic rule, if you do not know, ask someone who should, if thier
response makes sense go with it, if it does not, ask another who has
more industry respect. see they found out they needed a conduit toting
grunt who actually knew how all this shit goes together to protect
them from the pencil neck EE's who think they can dazzle everyone with
thier degree and math skillzzzz and bullshit thier way through.

now your interp violated sound fundamental and well known conductor /
overcurrent protection device regulations. my first reaction was
greeted with more interp from somone who had shown a decent level of
knowlege in previous post, so i researched it.

now perhaps you would like to explain exactly what the fuck it is you
do not understand about "In no case shall the ampacity be less than

is it that your not aware that the breaker is the overcurrent device?
is it that you dont understand they are talking about the conductors?

if you have a 40 amp breaker, the ampacity of the WIRE aka conductor
shall be rated no less than 40 amps, the end.

the facts are out there for everyone to see and anyone and everyone
can make whatever decision they choose. you can go right on with your
sizing proceedures just as you see fit. in fact i encourage you to do
just that, as i have made a fine living fixing peoples fuck ups for
years.

the real secret behind all this is a simple one, you and i both know
the odds the inspector is going to open the disconnect is minimal and
if he does, since the inspectors are not the brightest in the craft,
you will jump up and down pointing to your code book screaming about
440.22 and "show him why your right" and then ask him for his call on
the situation. he will likely side with you so he can jump back into
his air conditioned car and hit the next job where some moron
committed a far more serious infraction and he gets to show his
"power" to a lesser educated contractor and threaten to shut the job
down if it aint his way.

nope, i aint one of them romex jockeys who bought a study guide and
passed the test without ever seeing a set of prints longer than two
pages. you know the ones you hire all day hoping they actually are a
legitimat card holder for 13 bucks an hour. nope, that wont get it. in
fact, since i can already tell your one pain in the ass, you would
have to offer prevailing wage plus 25 grand signing bonus just to put
up with your bullshit.

ya gotta love them right to work states, does wonders for the
education of the trades.

the other rich

>>
>> http://www.nfpa.org/PDF/A215-220.pdf?src=necdigest
>>
>

(snicker)

(mmmmphhhh bwa ha ha hA HA HAAAAAA HAAAH!)

Ohhhh, I see it now...degree envy, huh?

> have to offer...

But I'll bet he knows how to spell "you're". Moron.

It's a wonder you can walk with all those chips on your shoulder.
And it makes all the sense in the world now, why you have it in for
me. It's that threatening degree in electronics, isn't it, loser?.

TP
--
In-depth studies have determined that the most used sexual
position for married couples is "doggie style". He sits
up and begs while she rolls over and plays dead.

And where oh where is the answer at oh where oh where is it?????

LOSER

kjpro
p.s. Answer Turtle's question GENIUS!!! NOT!!!

Hey Tommy, You know what threatens us? Having a pedophile in the group that
likes to fondle little boys and suck on their penises. That is SICK.

While you are replying, how about answering the question? Even I am very
interested in hearing your explanation...

news:3eb3a6ee...@news.earthlink.net...

ok tommy here you go agian. fyi an aos degree in electronics does NOT
make you a double e. it has however made you think you actually know
something about electricty which is clearly not the case. you did not
even demonstrate a good understanding of electronics in your reply.

pity you, perhaps, envy lmao i would need to respect you first.

the other rich

its too bad it went this way, some interesting and insiteful
discussions might have come about. instead it will likely remain
insults and bashing. instead, ill refrain from commenting.

hard heads when knocked make loud noises i guess.

perhaps i am more gun shy after removing thermostat wire from a 50a
breaker and almost getting fired for refusing to feed a 120 amp panel
for 11 ac/furnace combos at the school with 10 gauge.

good luck in your travels, and in reality, though i do disagree, i
hope your right and the ampacity of the wire carries the load without
damaging the integrity of the insulation. if you are, mine just have a
little more room for error and a small increase in cost.

the other rich

I agree with your sizing techniques........wire for
breaker..............sized for the unit!
Unit min of 25A run a 10 ga. wire on a 30A breaker!

kjpro
p.s. TP we are still waiting on the GENIUS answer of yours!!!
p.s.s. We will not forget about it till you answer it correctly or GIVE
UP!!!

news:3eb50ef7....@news.earthlink.net...

if your MCA is 30 and your opting for 10.
and
your maximum ovrcurrent aka breaker/ fuse is 40.

why are you wiring with the minimum and overcurrent devicing with the
maximum?

not usally much more but a 40 amp breaker is often a bit more
expensive than a 30 and the same goes for slow blow fuses.

i will refrain from screaming about how your ripping your customers
off for the extra bucks for the larger breaker, i just flat out
clueless as to why you just dont put in the 30

the other rich

news:3ea610d...@news.earthlink.net...

Is there going to be a nuisance breaker tripping problem if one installs a
30 on a unit with a 30 MCA? Isn't that the whole purpose of the NEC
allowing a breaker of up to 175% of the MCA (and still use the #10 wire)?
I've stated the reasons earlier in the thread....but here goes again. For
residential, it's not that big of a deal........and in fact most
residential electrical contractors will overkill it just to avoid (the
expense of) a call back to explain to a homeowner or some dickhead home
inspector the what the fuck about it.......or worse, because they decide to
install a larger unit. My point with residential is that one should at
least be aware of the difference. If one has a unit with a nameplate 30 amp
MCA, nameplate 40 amp MOCP, #10 wire with 30 amp breaker on it.....should
the unit start nuisance tripping the 30 amp breaker are you going to put a
40 amp breaker on it (as permitted) and go, or tell the customer
(incorrectly) that the wire needs to be changed to a #8 before you can
install the 40 amp breaker?

I'll repeat the example that I used for a commercial job. Say you have a
RTU that has a MCA of 80 amps and a MOCP of 150 amps. A #4 will cover the
80 amps with a 1" conduit and a 150 amp breaker. The electrical contractor,
not wanting a call back for a nuisance trip problem will install the 150 amp
breaker (as permitted). If he installs a 100 amp breaker and it results in
nuisance tripping, he has to eat the 100 amp breaker and the call back.
If one (incorrectly) installs a 1/0 conductor (and an 1 1/2" conduit) to
match the 150 amp breaker, I hope you can see that on runs of 200 ft. or so
this can be a substanial price difference.......especially if there are 9 or
10 RTU's. In fact, this scenario is exactly what you'll see in a Walmart.

The price difference in that scenario can be large enough that one just
won't get the bid if one bids it for the larger conductors and conduit on
long HR's and multiple units.

As far as residential is concerned, the breaker prices are the same until
they get up to the 70 amp range, so that isn't a factor. The price
difference with commercial breakers can be substantial, but offset by not
installing the larger wire and conduit, plus labor.....and one doesn't have
to sweat the call back. Plus, it's engineered that way, and any changes
made without approval can result in eating a lot of breakers. Many times
the panels are ordered months in advance and any changes could result in
delay at the factory and delivery of same to the jobsite in a timely
manner........read: everybody is screaming for power and you don't even have
the panel guts on the job. In fact, in a Walmart, _Walmart_ will send you
the complete electric room in a box, similar to a walk-in
cooler.........you're gonna use there stuff if you want to or not.

That's the way I see it from my own experience.......you people want to
shoot it up........go for it, I'm done.

**
First, if the unit MCA is 30A it gets #8 the first time with a 40A Bkr.
And, your last question on changing the wire before the 40A Bkr. goes in??
YES, the wire gets changed first!
Been there, done that. Anything over MCA of 25-27A gets #8 on my jobs.
#10 is rated for 30A why push it's limits?? More resistance, more heat,
equipment fails sooner.
**

**
If, I can't do the job right, I don't want it. Although, commercial is
another B-game then res.!
**

Just my opinion!

kjpro
p.s. You don't agree. But, I don't get call backs either!

> > Is there going to be a nuisance breaker tripping problem if one installs

Why? Because you don't know any better or are you just trying to screw the
customer out of more money by scaring them into something that they don't
need?

Again, _who_ picks up the tab........especially if there is an existing #10
which is adequate for a 30 amp MCA and a 40 amp MOCP? You going to say the
same thing if it comes out of _your_ paycheck? Do you at least give the
customer the option, or do you just ram it down their throat?

> Been there, done that.

No doubt in my mind about that! Did you also scare them into a whole new
unit if all they needed was a compressor changed? Makes me wonder.

You are doing the electrical wiring also?
How much sooner? How long does it take to fail.....5, 10, 15 years? By
that time you'll claim that the unit is a POS and want to sell them a new
unit anyway.

The industry recommended standard for volt drop is 5% total (feeder and
branch circuit)........3% for a branch circuit. The volt drop using a #10
wire, with a full 30 amp load, 100 ft. long, at 240 volts, is 7.2
volts.....or 3%.......which meets the industry standard. The volt drop
using #8 is 4.5 volts or 1.9%. The volt drop difference is 2.7 volts or
1.1%. You're trying to say that a difference of 2.7 volts or 1.1% is going
to make a _significant_ reduction in the life of the compressor?

Obviously you don't know what "right" _is_, so how can you do it right?.
One would think that "right" would also include not charging the customer
for something that isn't needed. Do you also insist on metal duct or just
slop in some flex duct?

I don't get call backs either......or try to scare the customer into buying
something that isn't needed.

JUST A FACT.

oh my tommy boy i am afraid i have a question for you.

since mr volt500 and i have had a bit of a head butting contest within
this thread and you decided to actively participate in it the time has
come for you to put up or shut up.

now mr volt500 has stated that a 30 amp load placed on a 40 amp
breaker 200 foot from the panel would result in a significant savings
on installation. mr volt and i have been discussing this from a
theoretical point of view and the application of the national
electrical code to that situation.

now lets put it up for discussion whether or not he WOULD actually do
that. all of the EE's i know would answer this in less than ten
minutes, many without looking up what others might need to in order to
correctly make the decision.

the deal is, you answer it correctly before i return home from class
tonight and i will leave you alone.

compressor running at full rated amps of 30 on a 95 degree day, 200
foot of tw #10 wire on a 40 amp breaker at 208 volts, name plate
voltage rating of the motor listed as 230 volts single phase and the
motor has a power factor of .89. incoming power within spec at 5% low
at the panel.

what is the voltage drop at the motor?
what is the voltage rms at the motor?
what is the amperage draw of the motor under these conditions?
what is the HP at the shaft?
how much more or less heat is place on the windings of the motor under
these conditions?
what is the increased or decreased eff. of the motor?
would mr volt proceed or would he adjust?

now tom i know i am asking for a total of ten minutes of time from a
EE for this information but that is surely less than it will take you
to come up with a creative retort.

you have 7 hours.

the other (loser) rich

ps all your gonna get is a correct or incorrect i am NOT going to
answer it for you at any point, you will have to find someone else to
teach you if you can not get it right.

volt500 you just ruined my day!

our resident troll tommy boy aka TP has the electrical knowledge of a
doughnut and i just now posed him another test question to watch him
squirm and run! now you have posted this and he shall actually have a
clue to how to answer it!!!!

all in all your point is recieved and being considered. as i stated
earlier, i have never done it that way but my comment about HRS turned
a few wheels and i thought about how much of my conduit grunting :)
was actually done under those additional more restrictive standards.

though every bone in my body resist it, it has been a bit of time
since i was sporting a pair of kliens and hardhat. i am gonna say i do
not think your an asshole for doing it that way, 3 days ago, i would
have.

do me a favor, let tommy boy struggle on that one below, it has its
own level of comedy, after he whines or whatever, go for it. i guess i
am a bit sadistic when it comes to him, but the idea of his brain
frying over that one tickles me.

likely you figured out i am a cumpulsive obsessive on certian things
so you already know if i find something ill shoot it your way, without
malice. ya made me think. if the situation was right, for the cost
difference i am not sure you made me change just yet but ill keep
loking at it!

the other rich

.On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:16:55 GMT, "volts500"

Hey rich, here's your deal: Fuck you. Fuck your mother. Fuck
your wife and grandmother. Know why I say that???...

> know how ya drive a moron nuts? give em a list of questions they dont
> understand and a computer directed at google so they can pretend they
> are not a moron.

So, old buddy, I guess the only answer to you is: Answer -this-.

LOL feeling the strain eh Tommy?

Mike

> LOL feeling the strain eh Tommy?

Not a bit, loser. Any more stupid questions? (Have you ever
asked any other kind?)

I'm sure you can answer all the stupid questions I can think up. It's
the intelligent ones you have a problem with which is why I won't ask
you anything intelligent. You can't answer them. BTW did you pick a
spot yet big mouth?

Mike

If I have it serviced, I'd prefer a HVAC person to do it, rather than a pool
repair guy, since I think the HVAC guy would know more about furnaces and
heaters. Still, what should I expect when it's serviced? Does it need
servicing?

--

Tom Gauldin, Las Vegas NV
NEW EMAIL tgau...@lvcm.com
NEW PHONE (702) 263-8804 voice/fax

A spot for what, loser?

Where is that answer to Turtle's question?????

kjpro
p.s. WE are not going to forget!!

news:Xns9366CDBBC74...@130.133.1.4...

Tekkie

Why are we going to meet, loser??

Well Tom,
I have seen a few of those things, but never really got to tear into one
yet. I would guess just a good visual inspection and cleaning of the burners
and flue system. Check and adjust the gas pressure if needed. I doubt the
induced draft motor has oil ports, but if it has a drop of oil in each port.
Heck, not a lot you can do to those things except make sure it is clean and
burning properly.

Bobby

It is a piece of equipment that you use, you like and you want it to
work when you need it.
You want it to work reliably like your home furnace and automobile or
do you just want to take your chances?
Your best bet would be to find the manual for it and see what they
recommend as far as service and/or cleaning.
Me? Id service it once a year.
Bubba

On 13 Apr 2003 14:30:29 GMT, Tom Pendergast <t...@icubed.com> wrote:

>>>On 13 Apr 2003, Oval wrote:
>
>>>> Am i getting warmer?
>
> (typo fixed)
>>> Any time you feel like a frog, Jethro, you just go ahead
>>> and leap. Just buy a one way plane ticket, I'll send you
>>> home in a bag. HTH.
>
>> Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
>
> Nope, another loser just like you Mike. BTW, same offer applies
> to you and any other of your cowardly friends hiding behind those
> keyboards. Do what you need to do, cunt.
>
>
> TP

Hey that sounds good. I'll be in Pa soon I'll let you know when. The
where will ironically be York but I could make a side trip on the way
down. Pick a spot. BTW I don't have any friends here and I'm no
coward. Ta ta for now, looking forward to seeing you soon.

Mike

because your a bisexual with a granny fetish?

or is it necrophilia?

did ya want my dead grandma or the live one, i am confused?

as for me, not your type tommy.

your answer to the question was incorrect.

you are doomed, not because your stupid, that is a byproduct. your
doomed because you already think you know everything therefore you
learn nothing.

the other rich

Boy TP sure forgets quick!

kjpro
p.s. It wasn't even a comment to me and I remembered TP!

p.s.s. Where is the answer to Turtle's question??? We're waiting.

kjpro
p.s. The answer to Turtle's question is "you don't know" and "you give up"!

news:3eb052d8...@news.earthlink.net...

So, what's the question, moron? You know where I live, you do
what you need to do, loser. Oh yeah, FYI: You're no longer an
anonymous cunt, now you're just a cunt.

Get off your knees and say that.

news:Xns93674BBDFBC...@130.133.1.4...

--
Hi, my name is Tom.
That is all I really know.
No, really, I am totally stupid.
A true legend in my own mind.
"Tom Pendergast weenerman!" <no...@TomPendergastSUX.com>
wrote in message
news:V1Upa.39815$4P1.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.ne
t...

Mike:

If you are going to be in York let me know when and where and we can take a
road trip out to Shitsburg and watch TP bleed

Vic Plank
Lancaster PA

My new ride should be here anywhere from a week to two weeks depending
on who I talk to. After that I need to put 1000 miles on it and have
it checked out then after that I'm good to go. Ol lady was yakking
something about kentucky during the later part of May to see the
future son in law graduate from basic training so it's looking like
the first part of june and I'll be heading out that way.

I'm doubtful about meeting up with fuck face, he don't seem to be
fourth coming with info. Personally I think he just has a big mouth
and no guts to back it up. But I would not mind a bit to hook up with
you for a cold one or cup of coffee. Lancaster right?

I'm mainly going out to the area to show my new bike off to my east
coast bros and get a solo road trip in before my schedule gets all
jammed up with family things. Shitsburg is right on the way.

Mike

Tommy I don't know how to make it any clearer. You ran your big mouth
and invited me to come see you and I'm very willing to take you up on
it. Now are you just going to continue to play dumb or are you going
to have the nuts to back up your big mouth. You seem pretty good at
running your mouth and I'd love to see how you act in person. Either

Mike

Tekkie

Which word don't you understand, moron?...

TP

news:Xns93674BBDFBC...@130.133.1.4...

Why not? I still want to get your on tape trying to correctly diagnose an
electrical issue in HVAC.

A simple one...
Its obvious that all it would take would be to wire a unit with a neutral,
and you would lose your fucking mind.

I can see it now...but...but...three...three...WAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
WHERE DOES THIS 4th FUCKING WIRE
GO??????????????????????????????????????????????

Tekkie

kjpro
p.s. He's by now forgotten Turtle's question.

"CBHvac" <webm...@removethis.carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
news:SP%pa.451$c02....@eagle.america.net...

I actually thought of this thread today because I ran across an unit that had a
neutral pulled to the outdoor unit. I noticed the two black wires on the
contactor were marked with red and blue tape and the ground was green, but
there was an extra black wire marked with white tape not connected to anything.
I went back to the box to verify what I thought I was seeing and yes, it was a
neutral that someone had pulled and had nowhere to connect it.

Bobby

I understand clearly that your a wussy end of story.

Mike

He cracks me up. Can't remember making threats from a few weeks ago
yet expects us to believe he can remember anything he learned at
school concerning electronics. And he calls us losers and morons.
LOL the dude is just to funny.

Mike

You know where I live, you do what you need to do, loser.

Sounds like TP is hacking units in lol.

Mike

I know you live somewhere around Shitsburg. Beyond that I don't have
a clue. Care to fill me in?

Mike

This is Turtle.

Get out from behind him for he is crawfishing here. A craw fish when scared
will through his arms in the air and run backwards. Tom is making a run for
it.

TURTLE

Would be a great time...only bad date is 10 May. My youngest graduates from
college and the wife and I are going to be out of town for that day...pick a
day or days...and we will have a blast or a bash or a pisser depending on
interpretations

Vic Plank
Lancaster PA

aka Poppy...@aol.com
yeah I know I am an AOL Loser

Yea I think your right Turtle. I've got better things to do with my
time anyway.

Mike

Ok Vic it's looking like the fisrt part of June i'll keep ya posted.

Mike