The vegan cat diet FAQ & protesting @ support for declawing @ TV Animal Planet

In the article "Cats as Vegetarians, De-Clawing Cats ... and More!"
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/radio/more/qa_042203.html
a man claiming to be a veterinarian nutritionist who should know better
condemns a vegetarian diet for cats on false grounds. The excerpt appears to
be from a script from a radio show which is apparently hosted by the TV
channel "Animal Planet". My response goes out in three copies: One per
email to the host of the radio show, Steve Dale, one to the masses of Usenet
and one to PeTA.

Before I respond to the statements themselves, first let me present the
correct arguments / FAQ* _for_ a vegan diet.

*The vegan cat diet FAQ!*

~May cats be fed a vegan diet?~

Cats, like dogs, may be fed a vegan diet, but they need particular nutrients
which aren't supplied in a normal vegan diet. These are taurine, arachidonic
acid and vitamin A, whose lack may lead to e.g. blindness, heart disease or
death. However, these nutrients have been available as supplements or in
special vegan cat foods for a very long time, which therefore enables
everybody to provide a healthy vegan diet to cats.

~Isn't it unhealthy to feed a cat a vegan diet?~

No, see 'May cats be fed a vegan diet?'

~Isn't it unnatural to provide cats with a vegan diet?~

Yes. Just as unnatural as "having" a cat in the first place, keeping it in
an apartment for example or having a dog on a leash. It's just as unnatural
that cats eat out of cans, most of it slaughterhouse waste which above all
was derived from animals like cows which aren't exactly natural prey of
cats, just like pigs and tuna to name a few.

Additionally, one can observe that there is some delusional tendency to
equate "natural" with "good". It is not "natural" to put a broken arm in a
cast to let it heal, or use a computer. Or, eating uranium isn't really good
for you even though it is natural.

"Natural" is therefore not a legitimate criteria to determine the validity
of a vegan diet for cats.

~Is it species-appropriate to provide cats with a vegan diet?~

First of all, the emphasis must be put on the individual animal, and not on
speciecistic concepts like species. Once that is established, the most
important factor is a diet which the animals like to eat and which provides
all the necessary nutrients like protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins and
so forth. Since a balanced vegan diet provides all these, it is in fact
appropriate for a cat. (BTW, cat and dog are interchangeable in this text)

~Isn't it animal cruelty to feed a cat a vegan diet?~

Animal cruelty is something which makes animal suffer. An appropriate vegan
diet doesn't make animals suffer, quite the opposite.
But with a non-vegan diet, the animals suffer which are murdered for it- to
end up in a tin sold as "normal" cat food. Therefore, a *non-vegan* diet is
animal cruelty.

~If I place a carrot and meat in front of a cat, she will choose the meat.
Doesn't that show that meat is the only right food?~

First of all, a vegan cat-diet doesn't consist of carrots (especially not
exclusively).
Secondly, the same approach with a small child would show that fried human
corpse or a chocolate bar is contrary to spinach the only right thing for an
infant diet. Nobody would ever seriously claim that.

Thirdly, even most humans make the wrong choices when it comes to food
(ethically as well as nutritiously), even though we, contrary to cats, have
the ability to inform ourselves. This is evident in the very small number of
vegans and the huge number of people dying prematurely every year because of
those wrong dietary choices.

~If supplements are necessary for a vegan cat diet, then it can't be the
right diet, can it?~

The canned corpses / bagged dehydrated corpses being sold as cat-food also
contain synthetic taurine. That is therefore not a valid comparing
criterion.
In this context its however remarkable that parents would, without thinking
twice, supply their children with foods that make it part of their health
appeal containing supplements. Yoghurts with added calcium, juices with
added vitamins, cornflakes with iron and the unavoidable salt with iodine,
just to name a few examples. You furthermore find lose supplements for sale
in every drugstore and pharmacy, catering not for vegans but omnivorous
clientele...

~But my vet said ...~

Why should a vet understand more about cat nutrition than a human MD about
human nutrition (usually nothing at all)?

Just mentioning the word 'vegan' triggers a psychological reaction in many
doctors who would then hysterically seek the origin of a disease in
veganism, ignoring the hole in the head is from a fallen roofing tile.

The reality of the health of vegan cats renders veterinarian critique
obsolete as mere fairy tales. Sadly, veterinarian antivegan attitudes are
not only the product of incompetence, but are often malicious fabrications
based on a psychological reflex originating in the vets/MDs own dietary
habits...

~I know someone who tried to feed his cat a vegan diet and the cat fell sick
immediately.~

If that is actually the case, the diet was insufficiently balanced.
Naturally a vegan diet too has to be balanced and contain all the necessary
nutrients. (See also "Isn't it unhealthy to feed a cat a vegan diet?")

But much more probable is the possibility that such a statement is not true,
a lie told for whatever reason, since even a deficient diet doesn't show
immediate effect.
Otherwise we have ourselves a case of magical thinking. (The Aztecs prayed
that the sun should rise every morning, and see there, it worked...) Events
occurring in timely parallels need not have a causal connection. For the
slower ones: a cat can catch an infectious disease *and* be started on a
vegan diet at the same time.

~But cats are carnivores!~

Vegan cats aren't carnivores.

~Isn't it just as perverse to feed cats a vegan diet, as it is to feed
ground up sheep to cows?~

The "Perversity" of using ground up sheep to feed cows is not that it isn't
naturally (see also "Isn't it unnatural to provide cats with a vegan diet?")
a cows diet, but that corpses are being ground up and given to cows. And
exactly that - a diet consisting of corpses, is what a vegan cat diet
avoids!

~Should we prevent cats hunting mice?~

The issue is not animals which are being hunted by cats, the issue is
animals which are being murdered by humans to either fully or partly feed
them to cats and dogs - the part you as the human are responsible for and
which should and safely can be vegan.

~But lions too eat antelopes!~

Lions can't make informed choices - people can.

~Why don't vegans get pets that are vegan too naturally, like rabbits?~

Vegans don't condone and support the concept of "getting/having pets". It
degrades beings to consumer goods. The animals vegans share their house with
are either from a time before they (the humans) became vegan, or rescued
animals from the shelters that were dumped there by people who *do* condone
the concept of "having a pet" and dumping "it" once it stops supplying the
egoistical satisfaction that comes along with this form of slavery.

~But I know a vegan who feeds her cat meat.~

Veganism is about avoiding the avoidable. Since feeding a cat a diet
consisting corpse is avoidable, the person doing so isn't vegan.

~But what about the animals which can't be fed a vegan diet?~

Should there be such animals which can not be fed a vegan diet (remains to
be seen), we are faced with an ethical dilemma. The existence of an ethical
dilemma however can't be a justification for abusing and murdering animals
in order to feed their corpses to cats and dogs - which can be fed a vegan
diet.

~But if I can feed even my cat a vegan diet, how can I justify my own
meat/egg/dairy consumption?~

You can't.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now, regarding the article appearing under "Animal Planet Radio":

> Cats as Vegetarians, De-Clawing Cats ... and More!
> By Steve Dale
>
> Q: What do you think about vegan cats? My understanding is that cats are
> carnivores. Do vegan diets meet cats' nutritional needs? I've seen at
least
> one manufacturer now makes one vegan diet for both cats and dogs. I
thought
> this was odd since I've always read that cats and dogs have different
> nutritional needs. What do you think? L. D., Livonia, MI

Too bad the caller didn't mention which manufacturer this is. (Preventing
trade-libel charges perhaps?)

> A: Dr. Ray Russo is a veterinary nutritionist from Kingston, MA.

Ok, this is where my first confusion begins. I did a white and yellow pages
search and it spit up two different people on the same address: Raymond V
Russo (white pages) and Mark E Russo (as a veterinarian listed in the yellow
pages). The most plausible explanation here is that veterinarianism runs in
the family and two brothers run the same office. I won't elaborate regarding
my more sinister theories;-)

A new one for me was "veterinary nutritionist". Perhaps we have those in
Holland as well, but I sure haven't met one yet. I researched the term and
discovered that most of these work in - you guessed it right- in the "pet
food industry". So if Mr. Ray/Mark Russo actually works in the "pet food
industry", how objective (and honest) can you expect him to be in regards of
their biggest nightmare: vegan cat food?

Fairly enough, I'm speculating and Mr. Ray/Mark Russo may merely be
incompetent. Because:

> He says
> several members of his own family are vegetarians,

Mark? Is Mark vegetarian? Ok taunts aside, because it already begins being
fishy here. What do you think is the purpose of the *claim* that several
members of his family are vegetarian? How is that relevant to a vegan cat
diet? I'll tell you: To suggest that he is sympathetic towards vegetarians
and therefore suggest also that there is no bias regarding the issue at
hand. And why would someone be eager to suggest being bias-free? Well,
mostly to divert attention that he is about to produce a biased fabrication.

> but his cats are not.

There. Don't I hate being right all the time. This man, Mark or Ray has
decided to feed "his" cats corpse and *is* therefore biased. Now he will
make some outlandish claims which are not backed up to justify his bias.

> "Cats are obligate carnivores and require far more protein than we do.
Cats
> should not be fed vegetarian diets."

Huh? What now? Ah, I see! He did *not* claim that a vegan diet doesn't
supply enough protein, he leaves that for the reader to fill in! He just
states that they require *more* protein than us and then goes on to make the
vague statement that cats should not be fed vegetarian diets. Fact is that a
vegan diet provides sufficient protein.

> Among other issues, cats fed vegetarian diets miss out on amino acids

Jesus. This was refuted in what, 1987? See FAQ.

> essential for their good health. A prolonged vegetarian diet may create a
> serious health risk for cats. Russo adds, "Cats and dogs do have different
> nutritional needs, so one diet does not fit all."

Ok, I almost forgot. One claim that one manufacturer offers *one* food for
both dogs and cats alike is used to generally condemn vegan nutrition for
cats and dogs.

> While it's true that dogs don't require as much protein as cats do, Russo
> still strongly recommends against vegetarian diets for canines.

I love the crispness of this brilliantly researched peace of journalism.

> "I understand the packaging of vegan dog and cat foods is really to ride
the
> wave of our own interest in vegetarianism.

Anyway, the man has guts. We have to give Mark/Ray at least that. To
construe vegetarians and vegans as offenders in public is just....stupid?

> But that doesn't mean it is
> necessarily in the dog or cat's best interest." Having said, offering
> occasional vegetables and/or fruit tidbits to your pet, such as carrots,
> green beans or bananas is a good thing.

I'm reminded of the saying "don't attribute to malice what can be attributed
to stupidity". However, my cynical side simply pictures a manipulation, in
where Mark/Ray wants his theories confirmed by a cat looking at the carrot
in front of her and then looking at the human with a 'what the hell is wrong
with you' expression. Ironically, the carrot is covered in the FAQ!
Naturally, it takes a while before a cat gets used to a vegan diet, but she
certainly won't eat a carrot! So if you just out of the blue hold a carrot
in front of a cats face she will at best turn around to flash her ring at
you!

Obviously, Ray/Mark has not even the slightest clue regarding a balanced
vegan diet for cat. He probably isn't even aware that it is done
successfully since the 80s with available supplements, nor has he any idea
how the food is mixed to make it appealing. He uses one example of a
(probably fabricated) claim by someone saying some company is producing some
food to discard a vegan cat diet as a whole. But what can you expect from a
man who supports probably one of the most severe cruelties ever invented:
declawing...

And where does all this happen? Not surprisingly: Under the umbrella of one
of the most speciecistic TV channels and caterers to lowest sensationalist
greeds: "The Animal Planet".

* The FAQ is a free translation (with some additions) of the German animal
rights activist, vegan and author Achim Stößer. Original can be seen on the
site of his animal rights initiative Maqui, for animal rights - against
speciecism: http://veganismus.de/txt/faq-sonstiges.html
--
Ava Odoémena / The Netherlands

Ah yes, the masses of Usenet *and* PeTA constitute the largest body of
pet diet experts in the universe! Shame you didn't cross-post to
alt.nitwit while you're on a roll.

Is the taurine in vegan cat food from vegan sources or animal? Are you
100% sure from vegan? What is the purpose behind feeding a small animal
a diet which is unsuitable physiologically and from an evolutionary
standpoint?

Wrong. In most instances it is completely unnatural and unhealthy. Cats
do not prowl wheatfields looking for grain upon which to pounce. Cats
evolved to live on the flesh of other animals. Arrogantly substituting
vegetable matter for what cats are naturally suited to eat is among the
worst forms of animal abuse.

It is natural for us to HAVE cats in the first place. As well as other
animals. Cats are not entirely predatory in seeking diet. Many scavenge
or steal. Perhaps you've never seen ferals and housecats eat out of
garbage cans and dumpsters. "Scavenging" the dregs of slaughterhouse and
canning waste is quite natural; so open a tin and let kitty eat.

Duh.

Show me a cat that eats rice and I'll show you a cat that is ill or has
been neglected.

How does one commit "speciesism" without acknowledging concepts like
species, fruitcake? Isn't it "speciesistic" to project your sense of
aesthetics onto a helpless animal?!

Cats are not vegan in nature. They're carnivores, almost without
exception (illness?). A vegan diet is inappropriate for a cat or a dog.

Hogwash. Let kitty roam the neighborhood and see if she roots up veggies
or kills small animals. Kitty kills what kitty likes!

Non sequitur.

What's your moral-ethical imperative to force an unnatural diet upon a
small animal, you big bully?

Non sequitur. Vegans die at the same rate as non-vegans: the death rate
is one per person.

*Some* contain synthetic taurine. Not all.

Maybe because vets have spent more time studying feline physiology and
development than the usual vegan nutcase.

In some cases, doctors are right to be concerned.

Or their study of physiology, biochemistry, etc.? Have you stopped to
consider that maybe YOUR malicious fabrications are not in your cat's
best interest? That maybe YOUR aesthetic projections onto your pet are
unethical and immoral and supremacist?

Like owner, like diet...

A *pet owner* who is balanced will not subject a cat to a
vegetable-based diet.

Experiment: eat three bags of sugar tomorrow, nothing else. Wash it down
with a quart of vegetable oil. Tell us how you feel at the end of the day.

A cat can also have its metabolism wrecked at the onset of an unfamiliar
diet -- particularly one which its evolution has completely avoided.

Yes they are. Look at their teeth, look at their guts. The only time
wild cats eat vegetable matter is when unwell.

The cat has been designed by nature to hunt other animals and eat them.
Domestication has rendered the hunting part obsolete to a degree (toss
bread out in the yard, let the birds come, let kitty loose and see what
happens), but the eating part hasn't. Cats eat meat. They NEVER stalk
corn or rice in nature.

Unethical projection of subjective aesthetics on a small animal.

Non sequitur.

My diet is vegan. I condone "getting/having pets." It doesn't degrade
animals, it provides them homes. It is not a form of slavery.

VeganISM is about avoiding reality on a shrill extremist level.

It is not an ethical dilemma to feed a pet food consistent with its
physiological needs as nature has determined by processes of natural
selection and adaptation. Forcing a peculiar human diet on a small
animal is an ethical abortion.

Yes, you can.

<snip bizarre extremist rant>

Your arguments are funny, as they are all addressed in the FAQ.
Given the aggressiveness with which you charge you obviously suffer from an
emotional disorder.

Good bye.

Ava Odoemena

>
>

[..]

Excellent example of the fallacy of Denying the Antecedent:

Diets containing meat make animals suffer.
My diet does not contain meat.
Therefore my diet does not make animals suffer.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Every form of agriculture results
in death and suffering of animals. Row crops displace native wildlife, then
encourage large populations of "pest" species which in turn are poisoned,
shredded, starved or exposed to predators. In fact most vegans could
*decrease* the animal suffering related to their diets by substituting some
of the commerically produced soya and rice "substitute" with some fresh
caught fish or game.

See above

[..]

Your use of the word "corpse" is an obvious attempt to poison the discussion
with an appeal to emotion. Animal corpses are the legacy of every diet, what
possible ethical difference could it make whether they are consumed or not?

[..]

Just mentioning the word "meat" triggers a hysterical reaction in vegans.
Note the obsessive drive to avoid the last microgram of animal cells in
their food, while all the while countless animals die in the production and
storage of every bit of vegan food.

Vegans have no business talking about "reflexive" reactions or malicious
fabrications. Such things are the vegan/"AR" stock in trade.

[..]

Corpses are dead, plants are not. It's the vegan who eats living matter, not
the omnivore.

Murder means the unlawful killing of a human being. You have demonstrated
the vegan penchant for misuse of language to cause an emotional reaction
rather than appealing to reason.

Whales eat thousands of animals every day, are they also uninformed?

Let's see, I provide food, shelter, medical care and protection from harm
for my pets. I clean up their feces and every mess they make of my house.
They lay around all day and lick themselves. I require nothing of them
except that they allow me to live in my own house with them. Yep, that
sounds like slavery all right, I'M the slave!

This is the single biggest self-serving vegan fantasy. There are countless
steps a vegan *could* take to avoid causing harm to animals, starting with
avoidance of commerically produced foods and severely reducing their
consumption, not to mention the introduction of some fresh caught fish, yet
they do nothing but the token step of removing obvious "animal products"
from their life. Even then, they still use many, many conveniences derived
from animals.

A diet which also results in the death and suffering of many animals. Where
is the ethical dilemma?

How can you justify your consumption of commercially harvested rice? Rice
harvesters do not stop for lizards or frogs.

[..]

Vegans have no business talking about "biased fabrications".

[..]

I love the collossal ignorance of your whole position. It's positively
delicious.

Vegans are guilty of the oldest offense against humanity, demonizing other
men in order to give themselves the illusion of moral superiority.

[..]

Like everyone else, you are speciesist through and through. It's an integral
part of being a member of a species. Your denial is laughable.

Incidentally, I have absolutely no expectation that any of this will phase
you one bit. Obviously, your identity is so wrapped up in this fraudulent
ethics that you have no way to see the light of day.

Good luck, you'll need it.

You must be an insecure and unhappy person to resort to such hostility. I
desire no further interaction.

Plonk.

Ava Odoémena

Indeed. And why should it. All these are utterly predictable and known
anti-vegan fabrications whose aim it is to discredit veganism. No matter
their design, they are essentially hollow, boring and self-exposing
distortions. They are usually portrayed by two different types of men:

Type A: A more or less severely disordered person who instrumentalizes
veganism in order to apparently act out some childhood trauma or whatever is
causing these conditions.

Type B: People whose job it is, i.e. getting paid for discrediting veganism.

If asked, I really couldn’t tell which one is more pitiful. Captured and
essentially motionless-entangled in their own abstruse fabrications and
within the gravitational pull of veganism, we accommodate you as a sort of
ugly asteroid, knowing that keeping you in orbit avoids the dangers of your
fragile psychologies crashing down to create...uhm collateral damage. In
other words: As long as we can keep you busy with veganism and therefore off
the streets, that's fine.

There is at least one of them in every unmoderated vegan forum. The only
anomaly in these NG's is the concentrated presence of these types of trolls.

You do realize, at least on one level, that that's what you are. A troll.
Nothing more, nothing less. You may delude that you're on a mission, but
then, all trolls think that.

--
Ava Odoémena * Jan Tademaweg 35
NL 2031CT Haarlem * Nederland *Tel [mobile] ++31 (0)6 155 86 929
~Member of NVV, The Netherlands Society for Veganism~

No, the FAQ is the product of a misguided and delusional mind at worst
or faulty reasoning and gross incompetence at best. Address the points
about feline physiology and evolution with respect to natural diet.
Address points I raised about projecting your aesthetic (not ethical)
"values" onto small, captive animals. How is it moral or ethical to play
God and deny an animal the food nature intended for it to eat?

I'm not aggressive, nor do I suffer from an emotional disorder. Then
again, I'm not the pervert trying to force unnatural diets on my pets on
the basis of your peculiar aesthetic objections to their eating any
meat. Your own aggression is demonstrated by projecting your "ethics" --
which are neither founded in ethics nor sound logic -- onto defenseless
*captive* animals.

VeganISM is rigid and systemic misanthropy. You've taken it to another
(lower) level and demonstrated contempt for animals and nature, vis a
vis your blatant scorn and rejection of the diet upon which they've
evolved. Show some compassion for your pets and provide them with a
sound diet suitable for their physiology -- not one based upon your
idiotic pseudo-science and flawed philosophy.

> Good bye.

I'm sure it's easier to run away than defend your indefensible
positions, huh. You presume to know more than veterinarians about feline
diet and physiology without offering any credentials. Now your responses
to me and two other posters show your insincerity. Then again, most of
us already realize veganISM is more about public posture than reality.

He's not a troll, he's a well-informed person capable of defending his
position. You, though, choose to call names and run away rather than
address points head on. YOU are a troll.

You may delude YOURSELF that YOU'RE on a mission, but all vegans think
that. That's why they post BS FAQs that recommend subjecting defenseless
captive animals to foods completely foreign to their evolution and
physiology in the name of some pseudo-ethical posture. It's UNethical,
IMmoral, MISguided, arrogant, speciesist/supremacist, and delusional.

Not all of us do.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Whoah! I've bin Nikitta'd!" Sn!pe (Sheddie)

Hello, Nikitta. Why are you vegan? :-)

>restored cross-post

Cross-post removed again. It's not wanted here. Please respect that,
like you said. If you cross-post your reply I shan't be continuing
this discussion as I don't want to take part in a discussion which is
being cross-posted between AFV and AEEV or similar groups.

Because I want to.

doesn't it defeat the purpose of what you're trying to accomplish when you
resort to name calling like someone else? C'mon take the higher road here.

Some vegans claim to be compassionate, but what good is compassion without
compassion toward your fellow man, no matter what they think?

Megan

Why not?

That's not much help in understanding why. Care to give reasons why
you're a vegan?

Do you include women in this or are you stereotyping only men?

Consider another category in which somebody has valid arguments that go
against your beliefs, so your defense mechanism is to conveniently deny them
outright. It is always possible that somebody else could be right and you
could be wrong.

FWIW, I cohabit with three cats. I feed them meat based cat food because
that is what is recommended by a vast majority of veterinarians everywhere.
It doesn't make me any less of a vegetarian. Feeding cats and other animals
vegan diets is simply self serving.

He is certainly deluded. There no doubt about that, and
he even admits it. He tried going veggie and supported
AR from a deluded point of view when he first arrived
here in a.a.e.v., but when the antis forced him into admitting
he was lying to himself and others he made a series of
statements owning up to the fact that he intentionally deludes
himself to feel comfortable about things. He's the regular
laughing stock here.

"I no longer cling to that illusion because it is impossible to
support. I no longer feel the need invent ways to try either,
which is the real relief." Dutch 16/02/2002

" I did find deluding myself quite comfortable, after all who
was it hurting?" Dutch 17/03/2002

"The reason I left AR is precisely that I DON'T feel
comfortable *knowingly* deluding myself. It was fine as
long as I didn't realize it." Dutch 19/03/2002

But as soon as his egotistical, deluded reasoning was
uncovered by some of the smarter antis here he quickly
projected his faulty reasoning onto other vegetarian ARists
in an effort to show we all must be suffering from the same
delusional malady that he suffers from. You'll often see him
write, "I was a vegetarian once" to the newbies here, and
then go on to claim they are deluding themselves when his
repeated whining is ignored.

I didn't resort to name calling. I merely made an observation. Calling a
troll a troll is not name calling.

Tolerance has limits. I posted an on topic message, and was showered with
abuse. I find it odd that you would not caution your friends, but me. So if
a man fumbles you up in an elevator, you let him do that out of compassion
for "his needs"? And if the same man fumbles your daughter and she cries,
you tell her to shut up and on top of that accuse her of being
uncompassionate to that mans needs? Thank goodness I'm not your daughter...

As for my observation: If you look at the name of these newsgroups, it
should be self-evident that everybody coming in here to abuse vegans or
veganism, or attempting to discredit vegetarianism/veganism with malicious
fabrications with the goal of disrupting the establishment of a functional
NG is, quite simply, a troll. There is no difference between the group of
boys who have infested these groups here, and some racists molesting African
NG's.

Und normal circumstances I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. But
I've realized that 'normal' and these groups here are pretty much mutually
exclusive.

However, I want to thank you for immediately showing your character by
siding with trolls *and* attempting to shove some passive aggression down my
throat, because now I don't have to waste my precious time with you.

Ava Odoémena

[ad hominem recycled]

I'll repeat the FAQ "But my vet said":

"The *reality* of healthy vegan cats renders the [malicious fabrications] of
[trolls] obsolete as mere [trollcrap]."

As for evolution, that's a pretty dense argument, I'll tell you why:
Evolution is about the interconnectivity of beings, a causalistic synaptic
structure which *includes* humans and everything! Hence, domesticated cats
have evolved to be fed vegan diets by human vegans, and are doing very
nicely on it. It shows your voidness that you would single out one group of
animals and separate them totally from the *real* evolution in order to
place them into your weird fabricated one.

As for running away, I am still here, aren't I? Refusing to give in to your
narcissistic needs doesn't mean I'm running away, it merely means I've
recognized that it is pointless to interact with *you*. So don't expect that
I will be coaxed into a this for that sand-flinging with you, cause I'm a
very busy woman and if I want to spend some time with children I'm not
looking for them on Usenet...

Ava Odoémena

Yet predictably you have no answer for any of them.

That's an empty, unsupported assertion. Show why you believe that to be true
with specific responses to my comments.

You can't.

<Begin Ad Hominem Fallacy>

</End Ad Hominem Fallacy>

Rather than attempt to address a single criticism I made, you instead
focused your entire rant onto me personally. You have reinforced what I
already know, that vegans are self-righteous, self-absorbed, irrational
human beings. You aren't hurting anyone but yourself.

Yes it is. Besides, I'm not a troll by any accepted definition of the term.
I don't crosspost to unrelated groups (you do) nor do I exhibit any other
troll behaviour, I am a regular on one newsgroup. I expressed opinions on
your post, and I supported each of my comments with rational arguments. You
chose to ignore every comment I made and attack me personally. THAT is troll
behaviour.

You have shown ZERO tolerance for views divergent from your own.

You should be prepared to support your opinions. Your style made it obvious
that you have neither the intellect nor the inclination to do so.

What a rude, inappropriate and uncalled-for comment. You certainly have a
lot of hostility seething beneath the surface of your so-called
compassionate surface.

aaev is a discussion on the ethics of veganism. My comments to you address
that issue directly.

"normal" is a subjective term. It doesn't mean agreeing with you.

Your time is badly misspent my friend. You are narrow minded, deluded,
hostile individual.

Are you aka Claude "Frankencrotch" Wittgenstein?

> [ad hominem recycled]

Valid QUESTIONS restored...

> I'll repeat the FAQ "But my vet said":

Stop repeating yourself and answer questions.

Non sequitur. The reality of unhealthy vegan cats is clinically
demonstrable, which is why veterinarians recommend animal-based foods
for cats.

Not nearly as dense as you are.

Bullshit. Trying lifting quotes from science texts rather than new age
manuals.

Bullshit. Evolution takes place over many years. Selfish and supremist
vegans have only been subjecting poor animals to unfamiliar diets for
the last half century. Fortunately, cats subjected to bullying vegan
owners are few and far between. Accordingly, no adaptations have
occurred to "vegan" diets in the feline world. The only adaptations are
made on an individual basis -- NOT throughout the entire species
(especially as many vegans spay or neuter their cats to prevent such
adaptation from being passed to other cats).

It's your aesthetics that are peculiar in general, not to mention
specifically foreign to other species.

I suspect you're the same man who previously posted here under the name
Claudia Wittgenstein. The reasons for such suspicion are too numerous to
ignore. More obviously, your Dutch IP and use of language. Maybe a
little less obvious, your MO of lashing out at stuff in the media and
sharing your stupid insights with "the Usenet masses." You were terribly
misguided about the Swintons, so it's not surprising you would go off
half-cocked (hehe) on pet food.

Come on, I know it's you.

You don't know what I know and don’t know and what I can and can't do. Trust
me, I *can* refute every single one of your distortions, but that is not why
I’m here.

I'm here to have my FAQ troll tested and your function as a troll is to
supply *valid* fallacies which can then be incorporated into the FAQ. The
troll 'usual suspect' fulfilled his function with his evolution fallacy and
that will be incorporated into the FAQ. You, on the other hand, did not
fulfil your function as all you did was produce your luke-warm goo and
that's why I have no further interest to exchange communication. And
regarding your feeble attempts? I hope my analogy doesn't offend you *too*
much, troll, but do you yourself bend down to remove every bit of doggy-poo
from the sidewalk you meet along the way? You even missed the subject!
Can't even focus on that. The subject was vegan cat food and off you go
gooing around on veganism. Bad troll, no cookie.

Do you honestly believe I didn’t check these NG’s before posting? I knew
*exactly* what to expect and what characters are playing here. These NG’s
were perfect given the troll infestation, so while my approach might be a
bit manipulative, I believe you and the other trolls here are adult and
vaccinated, so if you want some tender loving care I suggest you look
someplace in your neighbourhood or pay a professional to take care of
basics. That’s certainly not my job.

I might remain here and interact with vegans about vegan issues, as long as
they don’t happen to be troll-cronies, I still have hope that this troll
infestation hasn't rendered these NG's dead. And you're right, I have ZERO
tolerance for trolls. Regular ones or those in denial. And when I encounter
them, I am as hostile as I please. Can't take the heat? Don't play with fire
I say.

And please remove that 'victim role dress', it makes you look pathetic.

Ava Odoémena

No. But we certainly share an opion of you "<g>"

Because all you can do is actually "pathologize". <snort>

The term 'natural' is addressed in the FAQ and doesn't need further
explanation.

Ad Hominem.

It is "clinically demonstrable"? So it *has* been demonstrated or are you
merely fabricating distortions?

This isn't about new age manuals, it's very simple logic. Feeding a vegan
diet to vegan cats is part of the evolutionary process. I'm afraid you can't
get around that.

Ad Hominem.

Again, you can't exclude human activity from evolution. Besides, nobody is
forcing my cat to eat a vegan diet, he eats all by himself. He *loves* it.
"Go hang yourself."

Ava Odoémena