Dong Yang Dong Bei?

--crymad

I bought some tea back in 1997 that was called Dong Yang Dong BAI. The
following web page says they are the same tea:
http://www.vtek.chalmers.se/~v92tilma/tea/class/chinesegreentea.html
I remember it as being somewhat floral with hints of smoke, and rather
pricey. It didn't strike me as anything spectacular. I've seen references
to it since then, including one translation of the name as "worthy of praise
and respect".

N.

Dong Yang Dong Bai

This tea is picked in the spring (April-May). It produces a slightly sweet
cup with floral overtones. Nothing special. It's sometimes used to make
Jasmine Tea. Overall quite an ordinary Chinese Green Tea.

BTW, his characteristics can be found very easily... by tasting it. ;-)

Well I certainly respect the brew this tea has given me, and coming from
a hard-line Japanese green tea drinker, I'd say that's pretty
praise-worthy. Julie C.'s comments of this tea's ordinariness
notwithstanding, I've found it to be quite lovely. Smoky, but
delicately so. Floral, but not sweet, like the smell of a rose grown
for its beauty and not its fragrance. Produces a very clear cup;
appropriately, it seems to have a clearing effect on your mind as well.

Your and Julie's disagreement over the specialness of this tea seems to
indicate a range of available grades. For the record, I got mine for
$70/lb, marked down for close-out from $130/lb.

--crymad

For what it's worth, Dong Bai appears to be the name of the tea and
Dong Yang (a town in Zhejiang province) its place of origin.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

That's the important thing. If you like it personnally, go for it. I'm glad
you expended your selection to other teas.

Looks to me we tasted the same grade, at the same price. Our appreciation is
just different from yours. By the way, I can sell you an ordinary green tea
for 120$/lb (marked down from 230$/lb) anytime you want, even a very bland
one. I'm sure you'll find it "special" particularly if it has been a long
time you didn't experiment with other teas... ;-)

Actually I believe we both said that we didn't find it to be anything
special.....

N.

Sorry -- my mistake. Most other China greens I've tasted in the past
always had an underlying taste of antiquity that puts me off. This one,
though, is more light and lovely. Can you recommend any China green
you've enjoyed that share this sense of loveliness?

--crymad

I also prefer Japanese greens for their 'purer' green flavors. Quite a few
of the China greens I've brewed have brothy/yeasty/smoky overtones. There's
a relatively inexpensive China green called San Bei Xiang (Three Cups
Fragrance) that has a less complicated flavor. Some of the Taiwanese
greener oolongs are quite nice, particularly the Bao Zhong teas. Special
Teas' China Clouds & Mist (#581) is pretty good and also priced fairly low.
Occasionally you'll find a Lung Ching that's not over-fried (many of them to
my palate are over-toasted). Special Teas has a nice one now called Jiukeng
Lung Ching.
But lately I've been relying on Gray & Seddon (as sencha.com) for my
green-tea 'needs'. To me, the China greens are often just too hit-and-miss,
whereas you can nearly always find a good Japanese green.

N.

It's the complexity that turns me on. As it were.

Aha. So *that's* the explanation for Longjing "roasty/toasty." Makes good
sense: Over-toasted.

David Hoffman seems pretty reliable Chinese-green-tea-wise, provided you
talk directly with him.

Michael

Well, let me start from the name.
I would like to see the Chinese characters to be sure, but I will hazard
some hypotheses.
Dong Yang (Dongyang) should be the name of a city in Zhejiang province,
where there a very big tea factory, specialized in the production of green
tea for export and jasmine tea: Dongyang Fangyuan-Group Tea Refining
Factory.
If so, I dare to say that Dong Bei should be Dong Bai (Dongbai), the name of
a mountain in Dongyang city, a tea production area already quoted in the
Calssic of Tea by Lu Yu. Today Dongbai tea it is not considered a high
quality tea and is used mainly for the production of Jasmine tea.

Regard to your complaint for Chinese tea having "an underlying taste of
antiquity" can be correct, since EVERY green tea should be consumed fresh.
We can consider green tea like "Beaujolais Nouvel" wine, which should be
drunk within an year. In China and Japan the golden rule for green tea
consumption wants that the tea of the year before is no sold at the arrival
of the new harvest. Also, in the last years, most of tea dealers and
consummers have learnt to keep their precious green teas in the freezer in
order to stop this natural and unavoidable oxidation process.
Alas, this is not the case with export tea, that are sold in bulk or in
simple cans, with no regard for the storing condition and time. I can say
that it is not much easy to find fresh green tea on the market, here in
Europe.

Even very high grade Chinese green teas, such as Longjing, Biluochun,
Maofeng, Yuhua, that taste great when they are fresh, are not much different
from hay when they become stale.

So, I hope you will have chance to visit China (better after Spring time)
and try some good fresh green tea.
LZ

I should clarify my use of the word "antiquity". This wasn't an attempt
at opting for a euphemism for "stale". No matter how fresh, Chinese
greens, to my mouth, have an aged quality, a "flavor patina" -- as if
the bush from which the tea leaves were picked were itself a craggy,
ancient thing from the dawn of Chinese civilization. Have you ever had
a Chinese green that tastes like Japanese sencha or gyokuro? I haven't.

This "taste of antiquity" is present in other Chinese foodstuffs as
well, and contrasts strikingly with the straight, clear, clean flavor of
their Japanese analogs: Shaoxing wine/sake, vinegar, and soy sauce.

Tea merchants in Japan routinely store high-grade tea under
refrigeration. Is this practice equally as common for green tea in
China?

--crymad

There are, of course, some important differences between the thin and
delicate leaves of Japanese tea bushes (such as Asahi, Samidori etc) and the
thicker and more robust ones of Chinese varieties. Some Chinese oolong tea
are particularly famous for their "craggy" flavour, and the antiquity of
some chinese tea trees can be counted by centuries.
Apart this, I still think that the main difference in taste between Chinese
and Japanese green tea is due to the the method used for the "fixation"
process(high temperature treatment).
In Japan this operation is carried out by steaming the tea leaves, while in
China it is done by dry-firing tea leaves in a pan or a rotative metal
barrel.
The steaming proces brings to a bright green colour and fresh vegetable
taste, which I personally love, but that is not much apreciated in China for
its "seaweed" note.
On the other side, dry-firing takes away the grassy smell and may add some
"empyreumatic" notes (nutty and baked flavours), which are more mature and
less fresh then steamed tea. It also consent to preserve the shape of the
tea sprouts, which is a much desired quality in the internal market.
Regard to the question if I ever had Chinese green tea tasting like Japanese
sencha or gyokuro, I must reply Yes: I tryed some sencha produced in China f
or the Japanese market. This is not strange, since a good deal of "Japanese"
sencha is produced in Taiwan, China and now also in Vietnam.

I can't say anything specific about these products, but I must admit that
Sake tastes better than Shaoxing wine, and I love to drink it with fish and
seafood and also alone. Regard to Shaoxing wine, I drink it only as
accompaniment for braised pork and other fat meat dishes.

It is becoming common and common in many tea markets I visited, but it is
not yet a standard as in Japan.

LZ

This is news to me. All the tea books I have read state that
there are three varieties of the tea plant (plus hybrids) - the
China, Assam and Cambodia types, and that the plants used in
China and Japan are both of the China type (except parts of
Yunnan, I believe).

Sencha is also produced in Sri Lanka. I bought a very good one
there myself. They also produce some Chinese green teas and some
greens of their own (that is, produced in a similar way as their
black Ceylons).

Jon

Quite a bit of good-quality sencha is also produced in Brazil. I had sencha
in a Japanese-style teahouse in the State of Minas Gerais while I was there
in 2000. There is a large population of ethnic Japanese in Brazil,
particularly in São Paulo. Most if not all of the Yamamotoyama brand
sencha is produced in Brazil.
According to information on Ten Ren's website, the process of steaming tea
was developed in China, then later used in Japan. I've had sencha from
China. I prefer the Japanese kinds to the sencha from China that I've
tasted.

N.

Well, let me use wine as example again. All grapevines belong to the same
species Vitis Vinifera, but we have many varieties, such as Cabernet,
Chardonnay, Black Pinot, Merlot etc.
It is the same for tea. All Chinese, Taiwanese and Japanese tea (exept
Pu'er) are produced with varieties of tea belonging to the Camellia Sinensis
Sinensis, which is a sub-species of the species Camellia Sinensis.
Chinese Tieguanyin, Jiukeng, Fuding Dabai etc; Japanese Asahi, Samidori etc;
Taiwanese new clones such as Jinxuan and Cuiyu, as all vaieties of Camellia
Sinensis (Sub. Species Sinensis).

Thank you for the information, I didn't know about sencha in Sry Lanka.

LZ

> [...genetic differences between Chinese and Japanese varietals...]

This makes sense to me as an explanation for the difference between
most Chinese and Japanese teas. However, while ignoring the Chinese
senchas produced for export, I've seen sources referring to some
Chinese steamed teas. Apparently there's

- Yu Cha, literally Rain Tea, a generic term for steamed tea,

- Zheng Qing, literally Steam Green, another generic term, and

- Yu Lu, literally Jade Dew, from Hubei.

I wonder if anyone reading this has tasted any of these and can
comment on how they compare to Japanese greens.

Livio Zanini wrote:

Which leads one to the next question: Are Chinese dry-fired greens,
compared to Japanese steam-fixxed greens, really as perishable as you
suggested in a previous post? I have an anecdote that might be somewhat
telling. My wife's grandmother in Japan grows her own tea, and she
processes the fresh leaves by dry-roasting slowly in a metal pan over a
wood fire, much like the Chinese style. Her tea keeps very well,
retaining flavor until the next season's crop, without ever needing
refrigeration.

> sencha or gyokuro, I must reply Yes: I tryed some sencha produced in China for the > Japanese market. This is not strange, since a good deal of "Japanese"

Where is this ersatz "Japanese" sencha sold? Neither I nor my wife have
ever encountered such a curiosity in Japan.

--crymad

> --crymad

A lot of Japanese green tea is first steamed to stop oxidation, then it is
hot-air-dried, then further lightly roasted to remove any remaining
moisture. So to assume that sencha is *only* steamed is in fact incorrect.
There are several different ways that Japanese green teas are produced.
Sencha.com has quite a bit of information available online.
I've had kamairicha, which as I understand was at one time produced by
pan-firing green tea. These days the roasting is done in ovens. It has an
overtly toasty flavor.

N.

> [...tea cultivars...]

Except Puerh? Could you please expand on this? Do you mean that the
large-leaf varieties are a separate subspecies?

Isn't this more or less what Tamaryokucha is?

Look at sencha.com's website. They give good definitions of the various
types of Japanese teas and explain the nuances of nomenclature.

N.

Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> crymad <crymadS...@xprt.net> writes:

Quite the opposite. Tamaryoku-cha is a generic term for high-grade
sencha that is subjected to the steam-fixxing described in a post
above. What my Grandmother-in-law makes is a rustic version
Ureshino-cha, which does not undergo the steaming typical of most
sencha. She lives in Saga Prefecture, home of the Ureshino region, so
her method of processing tea is appropriate for her locale.

--crymad

Thanks. I now see what the source of my confusion was: the only
Tamaryokucha I've had was from Ito En, and it's produced in Ureshino.
See
http://itoentea.com/cgi-bin/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=001&Product_Code=201-A

I think he meant that for most Yunnan teas the Assam subspecies
(Camellia assamica) is used, not the China one.

Jon

This "Ureshino Tamaryokucha" designation is puzzling. If the tea is
indeed pan fired, then it isn't Tamaryoku-cha. This brief glossary at
the Japanese Ito En site explains things nicely:

http://www.itoen.co.jp/eng/teainfo/making.html

--crymad

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> >
> > crymad <cry...@xprt.net> writes:
> >
> > > [...Tamaryoku-cha vs. Ureshino-cha...]

Well, it isn't the only thing that's confusing on the Ito En website.
The very page you cite lists under TEAS OF THE WORLD / NONFERMENTED
only Japanese teas!

I beleive that your wife's grandmother tea is very good, and I hope to have
chance to try some home made Japanese dry-roasted tea some day.
Regard to the perishability of Chinese green tea, it is absolutely evident,
but I won't say that Gyokuro last more time. I am very fastidious with green
tea, and, since I go to China once a year, I puchase there my teas and use
all available means to have them tasting fresh till the next journey.

Where?!... Well, I would like to avoid to tell around the name of my friend,
the importer in Shizuoka at whose place I tryed the Chinese sencha, since I
think he won't like me to do that. He (and I guess he is not the only one)
imports sencha produced in different country, mix it with some local tea and
put it on the Japanese market.
If you are still skeptical, I think it is possible to get an idea of how
much of "Japanese" tea is actually produced in Japan, comparing data of
annual tea production, consuption, import and export in Japan.
With this, I am not saying that all Japanese sencha is like that (I bought
incredible Gyokuros in Uji), but in Japan foreign sencha is defenitely far
from being a "curiosity", even if most of the consummers ignore this fact.

LZ

Dear Lewis,
Zheng Qing is indeed the generic term for "steamed tea", and Yu Lu is the
Mandarin pronunciation of the characters used in Japanese to write Gyokuro.
For what I know, these teas, made in China, are in big part produced mainly
for export to Japan.

About Yu Cha (rain tea), I couldn't find any reference to steaming process,
but in a reference book on Chinese tea I found it is described as a low
grade green tea made with the smallest leaves sieved out in the refining
proces of Mei Cha (eyebrow tea) and/or Zhu Cha (gunpowder tea), both of
which are produced by dry pan or barrel firing.

Returning to Yu Lu, I must also report that in the old town in Shanghai,
there is a tea shop specialised in (very Taiwanese like) High Mountain
oolong teas produced in Xuefeng (Snowy peak) in Fujian, that sell a variety
of oolong called Yu Lu.

In any case I am sorry, but I haven't tryed any of the tea you listed. I
tasted only a variety of sencha that (I was told) was produced in Fujian
province. The taste was OK, for its quality and price, but I must say that
it was not a top grade sencha.

Yes, it is, or, at least, it should be. Yunnan large-leaf tea can be
considered a variety of "Camellia sinensis assamica", but I am not in the
position to state that now all Pu'er is produced using only this kind of
tea. This should be for sure the tea used for the so called "Yesheng
Chabing", wild tea cakes produced in Yiwu, in XIshuangbanna region. But...
who konws? I haven't been there yet.
LZ

Is that what is called Kamairi-cha?
Greetings,
Sophie

I understand your reluctance to give the name of your tea importing
friend. But can you at least divulge whether his products are available
at the retail consumer level, or just at wholesale by bulk for the food
service industry?

I will indeed look this up. However, if you have a link quick at hand
detailing this information, please offer it to the group here.
Personally, I have no first-hand experience of the tea industry in
Shizuoka. But my wife and I have had many dealings with tea producers
in the Saga region, and I can say with almost certainty that imported
tea is simply unheard of there. Quite frankly, they grow more than
enough tea to meet demand as it stands.

--crymad

Yes, a homemade version of Kamairi-cha. "Kama" means "pan/pot", and
"iri" means "to roast/toast".

--crymad

I might just do that. What would you recommend as the best time of year and
the best place?

Michael

He deals at wholesale level, but I don't know the final destination of his
tea.

I couldn't find the figures for tea import and export in Japan, but only
those relative to production and consumption. (From "Pocket World in
Figures, 2003 Edition", The Economist)
Production: 89,000 tons
Consumption: 146,000 tons
A quick calculation shows that at least 57,000 tons of tea are imported in
Japan (without considering that, as you confirm, Japan does export tea as
well), which means 39% of the total consumption . Personally I think that
this figure is quite too high if consisting only in black, oolong and China
green tea, but I don't have any specific data about internal consumption to
confirm this position.
LZ

Well, Chinese people often like to say "China is a big country". And indeed
it is. So, have you have already decided which part of China you intend to
visit?
For me the best time for visiting Jiangnan area (south of Yangzi river) and
purcasing green tea is April. Before that month you will find only a few
precocious varieties, like Biluochun. After April, it is difficult to buy
the best tea produced in that period.
I am sure you will enjoy that.
Alas, this year I can't go to China before September! :-(
LZ

Well, then any speculation that this imported tea is routinely mixed
with native tea and sold in bags to unsuspecting consumers remains, as
it were, speculation. See my hypothesis below.

One must not be quick to assume that these 57,000 tons of tea all find
their way into the kyuusu of tea lovers. The Japanese consume an
enormous amount of bottled and canned tea. Japan does not have water
fountains; instead, it has soft drink vending machines. Coca-Cola,
Kirin, Asahi, Suntory, and even the beloved Ito En all have machines
installed on every available plot of space in the nation, ready to vend
assorted varieties of tea, cold in the summer and hot in the winter, to
thirsty consumers. On top of that, these same beverages are available
in convenient 2-liter bottles at groceries for home consumption, and are
every bit as commonplace as the 2-liter bottles of carbonated
soft-drinks in the US. For youth and busy workers, packaged tea
beverages most definitely comprise the bulk of their tea consumption. I
would hazard to guess that among a great many of these Japanese, one cup
of tea brewed from loose leaves in a kyuusu is drunk for every 50 or so
from cans and bottles.

I surmise that much of the imported tea to Japan goes into making these
pre-made beverages. These are big companies we're talking about, and
commercial gain demands they seek out less costly sources of raw
materials, especially when they are selling not so much tea as
convenience.

While black tea indeed holds a minor position in Japan, do not discount
oolong or Chinese greens. Both types are available in the convenience
forms described above, enjoying brand marketing, nationwide advertising
campaigns, and other hallmarks of modern consumer culture.

--crymad

snip snip

The grand plan is to find a university or other school where I can get a
position, in or near a tea-inviting/tea-friendly area, and settle for a bit.
I have a great lot of research ahead of me. And it will be some time before
I can travel. I herewith inaugurate my research. Of course, I'll have to
drink a thousand teas as the major portion.

Thanks for the information, Livio.

Michael

Is tea the focus of your staying in China? If so, I can suggest to contact
Tea Science Dept of Zhenjiang University in Hangzhou.
- The city is gorgeus: with a beautifull scenary centred on the famuos West
Lake; historically interesting, having been the capital of Southern Song
dynasty
- The hills west of the lake are the production area of Longjing tea
- That university is one of the most (may the most) important centres for
tea studies in China
- Hangzhou is in the middle of Jiangnan, at a relative quick reach to many
other production areas
- In case you don't speak Chinese, they also offer courses in English
I wish I had the time for doing that!
LZ

I think that your remark is excellent, and defenitely consistent with the
enormous amount of bottled tea consumed in Japanese.
LZ

snip

Tea would be the theme around which my stay will revolve.

I will.

Southern Song instant enlightenment good. If I pluck out my eyebrows, can a
tea be named after me?

> - That university is one of the most (maybe the most) important centres for
> tea studies in China

So if I taught there I'd get the best of all possible worlds. Wow.

> - In case you don't speak Chinese...

I don't.

>...they also offer courses in English. I wish I had the time for doing that!

My future is assured.

Thanks again.

Michael

Why not get a cheap open return to Beijing and travel around for a
couple of weeks or so before pinning yourself down to a job? You can
still get a bed for 5 US dollars a night in most cities if you`re not
fussy. Whilst you`re undoubtedly going to find better tea if you tour
the production areas in spring, you can really go anywhere in China at
any time of year and get a fine cuppa. (Watch out in Beijing tho` -
boy do they like their jasmine!)

My two mao worth would be to head to Kunming, Yunnan - the laid back
capital of China - home to fantastic tea houses, unknown reds and
greens and ridiculous water bongs. It has a lot of folks passing
through to go elsewhere in Yunnan, but few stick around save those
working for tobacco companies - shame for them, cause the climate is
great, wonderful cafes serve barbecued fish and pickled everything -
its a great place just to do nothing.

And you could tell us about the new reds you find ...

A. How cheap is a cheap open return?

B. Sounds like just the thing. How's the climate in Summer?

C. Enjoying Paris, I hope.

D. Anybody Cow Creamers wanna go?

E. Thanks.

Best,
Michael

The same keyboard that's reversing your apostrophes. Same trouble I
had in Morocco.

Do they smoke Puerh or what?

Don`t know from New York, but Air China 3 month open return from
London tends to stick around the 500-600 US mark and they`re very
flexible about folks keeping changing their return dates (at least
they have been with me)

Hmm not sure - never been in summer - quite possibly hot: it`s just
above Vietnam thus subtropical, but quite high up thus a tad cooler -
generally easy weather

Yep I am - just passing through and living cheap chez friends - damn
keyboard`s a pain tho` - one types without lloking qnd co,es up zith
this ...
Happened upon a Raul Ruiz retrospective this month and wondering how I
can learn French in a v short time and move here. On my way to Poland
for a couple of weeks work* and so my luggage is 5 t-shirts and a kg
of tea - probably drop by Palais des Thes tomorrow morning to get some
goodies - London is a Tea Desert for non Indian stuff.

You really must enlighten me here - a choco bar or reference to milky
bev lovers? Or Tibetan sugar stick tea?

> E. Thanks.

Welcome as always, and seriously consider the Hangzhou Uni post too -
my distant memory of walking up to the tea house is still a good one.

*ps Livio - Milan still on agenda

Actually cheap fags mostly - please no sex-tourism jokes ...

In Kunming I saw people smoking some kind of pale yellow tobacco in their
huge bongs. I tryed it: I dare to say that it tastes better then standard
yunyan (Yunnan cigarettes)!
LZ

Serious snippage here...

Zakopane. Krakow. Those are places I'd like to be. Hope they haven't changed
much in the last 35-40 years. (Fat chance.)

I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. I'm sworn to secrecy.
Sorry.

Enjoy Poland, too.

Michael

I think a heard once that they abolished communism...

--
Tufke

I was thinking more of the beauty of these places and their people despite
communism. Very astute of you though, Tufke.

Michael

Karen