New Bayliner Trophy Sinks

In August 2001 my husband and I purchased a brand new Bayliner Trophy
model 2002 fishing boat.

Three hours after the dealer put our brand new boat in the water, it
sank in calm seas (just off the California coast) due to unbelievable
and inexcusable manufacturing defects.

Without boring you with a lot of details, nine months later, we are
STILL without a boat (warranty is made of unobtainium).

We have owned several boats from large twin inboard models to smaller
single O/B and I/O models. We have experienced and survived almost
every common "emergency" on the water. But never have we felt so close
to dying as we did only hours after purchasing our new Bayliner.

If you are considering purchasing one of these boats (please don't), or
are simply interested in our story, you may contact us at k...@vm.st

Peace to you and yours;

Kim

Hello Mr. Kearns;

My husband and I live in the San Francisco Bay area. We rather like our
short domain name and email address. If you are interested, you can
purchase a .st domain yourself from http://www.nic.st

We find it very convenient to have such a short and easy to remember
address.

FYI: The .st domain is offered by the country of Sao Tome, West Africa.
A small island country that we one day hope to sail to in our quickly
approaching retirement years.

Kim

>
> What an obscure domain. No details. The wife writes.
> CaptMP, even *I* am leery of this one!
>
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:18:19 GMT, Kim <k...@bite.me.spambot>
> pontificated:
>
> # Hello fellow boaters and fisher(wo)men;
> #
> # In August 2001 my husband and I purchased a brand new Bayliner
> Trophy
> # model 2002 fishing boat.
> #
> # Three hours after the dealer put our brand new boat in the water, it
> # sank in calm seas
>
> <<<<<< Snip >>>>>>>>>
>
>

Like you I am am leary of such a "sinking" with no details...If I spent say
$20K+ on an anything and in three hours it self destructed you can bet I'd
post all the particulars on everything from the internet to the telephone poles
on Main street!

Ah well.....gotta love the "..bite.me.."part of her address....

Regards
Mike

"CaptMP" <cap...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020419231305...@mb-fo.aol.com...

Why not bore us with the details? The more detailed the better.

--
Harry Krause
- -
"There ought to be limits to freedom." G.W. Bush

Good fishing off the west coast of Africa...

GW Bush: Social Promotion Poster Boy

Probably forgot to put the drain plug in.

Someone besides me has pulled that stunt? Naw.

15 year-old Welsh singing sensation Charlotte Church recently met George
W. Bush but says she prefers Clinton. "[Bush] said, 'So what state is
Wales in?' I said, 'Erm, it's a separate country next to England, and he
went, 'Oh, OK.' I didn't know what to say."

"Kim" <k...@bite.me.spambot> wrote in message
news:ft2w8.250711$Yv2.69065@rwcrnsc54...

This is probably bogus. However, it is possible for a brand new boat
to sink from factory defects. It happened to me with a VIP Seasquirt.
In calm water the hull split open and the boat sank. The manufacture
(VIP) skimped on floation. If the boat would have had the minimum
floation require by law it would not have sank. The boat had double
hulls but when the water came over the transom it went down. I
salvaged the boat and repaired it at my own expense. Since the boat
was only a few weeks old I should have made VIP do that but I didn't.
I never trusted the boat after that and finally sold it at a big lost.
The buyer knew the history but said it was too good of a deal to pass
up. I will never again buy any thing made by VIP.

So are you one of Larry's HAM buddies, or what?

Dan

--
Take GWAR, add in some goats and stuff, and you have Grimstari!

-- Matt Hufstetler

G,

> I

I'm at a loss, you had a brand new boat sink, through no fault of yours, and
you ate it , I'm amazed, why would'nt you go back to the
dealer,factory,anybody. I don't know about VIP boats but I do know any new boat
costs more then a couple of bucks.

--
On Sept. 12, Israel's flags were flying at half-staff and the
Palestinians were dancing in the streets.
"SaladinoJA" <salad...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020421090933...@mb-fo.aol.com...

When I look back on it I realize that I did not not use good judgment.
This was years ago, 1976 and young people don't alway make good
choices. The dealer was a real asshole who wanted to blame me. (he
didn't stay in business long) The factory was in Flordia and I live
in S.C. The boat was in shallow water and easy to salvage. This
was in fresh water (Bushy Park, Goose Creek SC) The engine was ok
after flushing it out good with oil. I decided to pay for the hull
repair myself rather than deal with a factory out of state. Like I
said that probably was not a good choice. I did lose a lot of money
on that boat.

Hi;

I really didn't expect the volume of email we received asking about our
boat. Since it will take me some time to answer all your email
questions, I'll post the basic facts here and try to reply to each of
you who sent specific questions as time permits. If you're in the area
and would like to talk to us, my husband and I will be at the boat show
in Oakland California (Jack London Square) next weekend.

Any way...

In August 2001 we purchased a new Bayliner Trophy model 2002 from
Olympic Boat Centers in Oyster Point, South San Francisco. (They have
since closed this store and relocated to San Jose California)

With the options we selected the purchase price was a little over
$36,000.

We took delivery of our boat at the Oyster Point dealership and after
loading up our fishing gear, motored the short distance from Oyster
Point to the bait dock in San Francisco. After purchasing a few
anchovies we headed out under the Golden Gate Bridge with the intention
of fishing the Duxbury Reef area just north of the SF entrance.

Just after entering the area known as the Potato Patch, we noticed the
boat responding very sluggishly and the bow starting to dive into the
small swells instead of riding over them like when we started out.

I opened the hatch in the motorwell (where the bilge pump is) and noted
the bilge was wet, but didn't have enough water to trigger the bilge
pump. I then opened the door to the v-berth, and just about lost it.
The cuddy was filled with water to just below the door. The bunks were
under water and all our gear was floating around. Our two dogs were
soaking wet and standing up on the bunks as water sloshed around their
feet. The porta-potty had also torn loose and come apart and was
banging around in the berth, it's contents now spilled into the berth.

My husband leaned over and took a peek into the berth and immediately
kicked a bucket my way and yelled "Start bailing!" as he turned the
boat around.

Heading back into the bay with a following sea, thrusts from the engine
drove the bow underwater. Once David had got our speed adjusted to ride
along with the swells (with the bow just inches from the water) I
stopped bailing to use the radio to inform the Coast Guard of our
situation. David could not take his hands from the helm and throttle
because we were in serious danger of broaching. When I keyed the
microphone, the VHF went dead. The circuit breaker had not tripped, but
we discovered later that the radio had been installed by the
manufacturer or dealer (not sure who did the install) with a 1/4amp
fuse which immediately blew when we tried to transmit. David instructed
me to ready the flare pistol.

I opened the storage compartment next to the seat on the port side and
found our emergency kit floating around. Fortunately it had not floated
into an inaccessible part of the bilge underneath the deck.

As we passed back underneath the Golden Gate and found smoother waters,
I looped the pistol and bandoleer from the overhead box and resumed
bailing.

Once in the bay, we were able to make a slow but steady way back to our
marina at Ballena Isle. I continued to bail water from the berth. At
some point, we noted the bilge pump starting to cycle. Opening the
access hatch over the fuel tank sending unit revealed water up to the
level of the deck. Water was reaching the rear compartment (and bilge
pump) by spilling through a small hole in the top of the rear bulkhead
where the fuel sender wire goes through.

When we reached the marina we tossed the holding tank pumpout hose into
the berth and drained it down to the level of the floor. We noted that
our spare life jacket had auto-inflated at some point as it floated
around in the berth. We removed the table mount from the center of the
berth to gain access to the bilge underneath the floor and used that
opening to suck the area below the berth deck dry. We also discovered a
small rectangular opening in the floor beneath where the potty had been
and used that access as well. For the next five hours, water continued
to leak into the berth as we pumped it out. We informed the marina
manager of our situation and they immediately brought down 115 volt
emergency pumps and installed them in the berth. With these pumps in
place, we called Olympic Boat Centers and explained our situation. We
were informed by Mike (I believe he is the store manager) that the boat
contained enough flotation foam that even if the last compartment of
the boat were to flood, the boat would not go entirely under water and
encouraged us to not worry about it and continue to enjoy the boat.

At this point, I have to stop and state that we believe that ANY
mariner who discovers 75% of his boat flooded and his bow under water
will be doing and thinking many things, but "enjoying" and "not
worrying" will be the furthest thing from his mind. I'll admit that as
I was bailing water, I silently prayed that I would be rendered
unconscious from hypothermia before experiencing the unpleasantness of
drowning, and that my husband wouldn't waste undue energy trying to
save my old carcase. This "Even if you are 100% flooded, don't worry,
be happy" mantra was repeated to us over and over again by both the
dealer and manufacturer over the next few months.

After several hours of literally begging the dealer over the phone to
assist us, he (Mike) located an off-duty salesman who lived in the area
to meet us in the marina. This person (can't recall name) met us in the
marina and assured us that the only problem was a "minor" leak in the
through hull fitting and insisted that we motor the nine miles across
the bay from Ballena Isle to the dealer at Oyster Point.

Again, I must stop to give credit to the folks at Ballena Isle marina.
When faced with the specter of a boat loaded with fuel and oil sinking
in their marina, they took immediate action to assist us. Their
engineer stayed with our boat and maintained the pumps while the marina
manager kept the office open well beyond their normal hours to allow us
to use the office phone to plead with the dealer for assistance.
Considering the situation, we would not be able to blame them if they
had chosen to tow our sorry excuse for a boat out of the marina to
protect the other boats.

After about five hours of pumping, the water stopped rising in the
berth and at the dealers insistence we left the marina (now night time)
and navigated by compass back to the dealer. (They wouldn't wait for us
to arrive and were closed when we got there.)

The following week, we were informed that our boat was "repaired" and
ready to go. We were told that the bait tank had been installed with
out any sealer and that it had been plumbed wrong. The moment we turned
on the bait tank, we were un-knowingly pumping hundreds of gallons an
hour into the bilge.

When we arrived to pick up the boat, we noted that the berth was STILL
full of water and pointed it out. The dealer attached a forklift to the
front of the boat trailer and lifted it to about the 11 o'clock
position to drain the water. After noticing that they had buried the
outboard into the asphalt, they lowered the boat, raised the engine,
and again raised the boat to about the 11 o'clock postion. A very small
trickle of water began to emerge from the garboard drain. When asked
why the water was not pouring out, the dealer explained that "because
of the way the boat is built, the water has to work its way around many
obstacles" and that "it is normal for it to take several hours for
water to flow from one end of the boat to the other". After about an
hour and a half of "draining" they proclaimed the boat "fixed" and put
it back into the water.

Again, (yes, stupid we know) we purchased bait and headed for the
Duxbury Reef. Our adventure this time is much the same as the first
time except that this time the radio failed because the antenna cable
had been simply pushed (unstripped) into the connector and screwed onto
the back of the radio. While we could hear powerfull transmissions
close by, our transmissions could not be heard.

After our second "adventure" in our boat, we again returned it to the
dealer where it was discovered that the limber holes between
compartments had been fiberglassed shut when the stringer assembly was
installed in the boat. The bait tank system also still leaked and was
"repaired". The manufacturer instructed the dealer to fix the limber
holes by hammering a long 1/2 inch threaded rod through the boats
centerline from the garboard drain all the way into the berth.

Being a little gun-shy now, we launched our boat from the Encinal boat
ramp about 1/2 mile from the Ballena Isle marina. We stayed in the bay
and started a slow circuit around Angel Island while watching the sonar
for fish and structure. About half way through Raccoon straights, we
noticed the boat listing to starboard and moved all our weight and
ourselves to port. The boat continued to list and as we rounded Angel
Island, the boat AGAIN started sinking bow first. Yup, the berth was
filled with water as well as the center (fuel tank) compartment. The
bilge pump compartment was almost dry.

We headed back to the boat ramp but now the wind and chop had kicked up
considerably. As David navigated and I bailed, we both heard and FELT
several LOUD popping and cracking sounds comming from underneath the
deck. We discovered (much) later that the fuel tank had torn loose and
was banging around below the deck as the almost submerged boat banged
in the waves.

We did manage to reach the boat ramp but discovered that our V8 powered
van was not strong enough to pull the boat from the water. We waited
about one and a half hours (blocking the ramp) while enough water
slowly trickled out to lighten the boat enough for us to top the ramp.
When we got on level ground, we noted that all four tires on the
trailer were almost flat and splayed out at a wild angle. Our surveyor
estimates that at this time, we had about 12,000 pounds of water in the
boat(The boat is rated for 1500 pounds load). Although we blocked the
ramp for a considerable time, other boaters waiting to use the ramp
were understanding and patiently waited while our boat slowly drained.

We managed to get the boat unhitched and abandoned it at the ramp and
went to West Marine and purchased a 12 volt emergency pump. We returned
to the boat and spent the rest of the day pumping water out of the boat
as it slowly leaked into the berth from other inaccessible parts of the
boat.

Two weeks later, we put the boat back into the water and measured a
four inch starboard list still remaining in the boat. Standing on the
port side causes no appreciable list, standing on the starboard side
causes an additional 7 inches of list. The stringers and flotation
chambers on the starboard side are full of water...

We again contacted the dealer. The service manager at Olympic Boat
Centers (Geraldo) informed us that he had never seen such a defective
boat and had recommended that the boat be replaced. The dealer informed
us that they had no idea at this point how to deal with our boat and
had contacted the manufacturer for advice. Several months passed and we
were informed by the dealer that the manufacturer (U.S. Marine) has
refused to answer calls and emails regarding our boat.

I ended up calling the manufacturers service department in Washington
state and spoke with a man named Ross Robinson. Mr. Robinson informed
me that it was their policy to NEVER replace a boat and that repairs
would be made. I was asked to take the boat to the San Jose dealer and
that a factory engineer would inspect and repair the boat. I explained
that after removing the boat from the water the last time, the trailer
bunks were bent and no longer sat square on the hull and was uneasy
moving the boat. Mr. Robinson agreed that their engineer would meet us
at our home and inspect the boat here. I proceded to give Mr. Robinson
detailed instructions to our home.

On the appointed day, Mr. Robinson called and demanded to know why we
hadn't delivered our boat to the San Jose dealer. I reminded him of our
arrangements and he told me (quite angrily) "You can believe whatever
you want, but we never had that conversation." Our attempts to contact
Mr. Robinsons superiors were completely ignored.

We hired Randal Sharpe (http://www.sharpesurveying.com) to examine our
boat. Mr. Sharpes, moisture meter was pegged over a large area of the
starboard side. (a copy of Mr. Sharpes survey is available on request)

Further experiments showed that the hatch in the motor well leaks into
the bilge almost as fast as water could be pumped into the motor well.
The motor well hatch in this boat is almost always submerged when
drifting in a seaway. It was also discovered that the bait tank drain
(also often submerged when underway) leaked terribly and had no way to
close it off. It was also discovered that the low point in the bilge is
in the forward berth where there is no bilge pump. The highest point in
the bilge is exactly where the bilge pump is installed. It was found
that to get even a small amount of water to flow from the berth to the
rear compartment where the bilge pump is, three full grown adults
(about 600 pounds) had to sit on the transom. It is clear that any
water entering the boat finds it's way into the berth and raises the
stern (and bilge pump) even higher and causes the boat to sink bow
first with the last part to submerge being the bilge pump.

We finally retained the services of a law firm (Brodsky, Baskin and
Miller) to represent us. With a lawfirm involved, we finally were able
to get a response from Bayliners legal department. We were again
informed that an engineer would be dispatched to investigate and repair
our boat. We again retained Mr. Sharpe to be present and document this
investigation.

On the appointed day, a Mr. Charlie Life arrived at our home and
immediately launched into a very long explanation of why we shouldn't
be concerned with our boats list or sinkings and offered a plethora of
explanations and excuses designed to make us feel that we are in error
of expecting that a boat should keep water on the outside.

When asked to explain the list, Mr. Life first told us that this is
"designed in to offset the weight of a trolling motor that is expected
to be mounted on the port side of the transom." (our surveyor has
calculated that almost 300 pounds of water remain trapped on the
starboard side, that's one hell of a big trolling motor). When we then
demanded that a trolling motor be installed on the port side, Mr. Life
changed his story to the possibility that water has become trapped but
now after nine months has leaked out and the boat may be level without
the motor. (Bayliner has actually agreed to install, and has delivered,
an additional motor to offset the trapped water)

It was also explained to us that "well, ya know the ocean is not flat
and it's common for the ocean to be higher on one side of the boat than
the other."

It was also explained to us that fuel can "migrate" to one side of the
tank and give the impression that something is wrong, and that it takes
a long time to flow back..."

We were also informed by Mr. Life that "every boat lists a few inches
and that nobody notices it until something goes wrong."

After about an hour and a half of this endless stream of excuses, I
asked when he (Mr. Life) was going to get to work. Mr. Life asked me
what I meant. I replied, "well, you know... taking measurements,
performing tests, examining the boat...". Mr. Life replied that he
didn't need to do any of that since he could "tell that there was
nothing wrong with the boat just by standing in the driveway and
looking at the side of the hull."

David, I and Mr. Sharpe finally coaxed Mr. Life up onto the boat where
he refused to perform any of the tests or measurements that Mr. Sharpe
or us suggested or requested. He continued to talk for an additional
two hours about why none of this was a problem. He finally agreed to
write down a few things that we had previously discovered and agreed to
fix them such as the leaking motor well hatch. Mr. life also stated
that he was here to make us "happy". We told him that replacing the
boat would make us happy. He stated he was not allowed to discuss that.
A copy of Mr. Sharpes report of this "examination" by Mr. Life/Bayliner
is available on request.

After Mr. Life left, more prodding from our attorneys was necessary to
get a responce from the manufacturer. They agreed to a list of repairs
and specified they would use a Mr. Erb to perform the repairs. Some
research of the local dealers and boating community revealed that no
one had ever heard of a Mr. Erb. We insisted that repairs be done by a
reputable boat yard and we specified that Svenden's Boat Yard (probably
the best and most well known boat yard in the Bay Area) do the work.

Svendsens has so far estimated $16,000 worth of repairs are required
and that does not include repairing the leaking stringers on the boat
once they cut the deck off. They are requesting (and we can't blame
them) that Bayliner provide a written guarantee that they will be paid
for tens of thousands of dollars of work required to cut the boat up to
get to the damaged sections if Bayliner should (eventually) agree that
it is simply cheaper to replace the boat. Svendsens tells us that
similar repairs on other boats reaches somewhere into the $40,000
range. Our attempts to contact Bayliner and inform them of this
requirement have not yet been responded to.

After all is said and done, (if anything gets done) our boat will be
over a year old before we get to use it. It will also no longer be a
"NEW" boat, it will be a
three-times-sunk-year-old-cut-apart-and-glued-back-together piece of
junk.

All in all, our experience with Bayliner has been frustrating,
expensive, life threatening and embarrassing. We urge you to seriously
consider your options before dealing with this company.

We will post updates to our progress if anything further happens.

We hope this account of the facts answers most of the questions that
you have emailed to us.

No, we don't have any pics. When fighting for our lives, the camera was
not one of the things we thought about.

Mr. and Mrs. David Genrich
k...@vm.st

It explains a lot about you. You description contains too many dumb moves.

You screwed up the first time due to ignorance and the second time due to
pure stupidity.

You two need some common sense and a motor home.

Bert

What an awful set of experiences, but I'm not surprised. I examined a
Bayliner Trophy a few years ago and was appalled at what I found in
terms of bad design, cheap wiring, cheaper fittings, bad assembly,
overstressed components and more.

You need to initiate a lawsuit against Bayliner and against the
dealership. Lawyer letters are not enough. Your boat was the result of
slipshod design and manufacturing, lack of inspection and negligence in
assembly, and total disregard by your dealership.

I hope you post and repost your horror story as widely as possible on
all the boating newsgroups and private boards. Your tale is pretty
damned specific in pointing out the many things Bayliner did wrong in
putting your boat together and effectively counters the "Bayliner Can Do
No Wrong" owners who post here and glibly claim their boats are up to
standard.

They are not.

Good luck.

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:10:43 -0400, "Bert Robbins" <r6...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Larry

Kim, don't forget to take proper SIGNAGE and all the documentation to
the Baylliner booth entrance to show the crowd at the boat show. Take
that survey with you, too!

As to Bayliner's "Policy" of never taking back a piece of crap, the
Federal government disagrees.....

15USC50 section 2304 (a)(4) states in plain English:

"(4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or
malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by
the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product,
such warrantor must permit the consumer to elect either a refund
for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as
the case may be). The Commission may by rule specify for
purposes of this paragraph, what constitutes a reasonable number
of attempts to remedy particular kinds of defects or
malfunctions
under different circumstances. If the warrantor replaces a
component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall
include installing the part in the product without charge."

Ask your attorney about this provision of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty
Protection Act. Bayliner or any of them AREN'T exempt! You also have
clear claims under the "Implied Warranty of Merchantability" which
simply says the piece of crap has to be ready for sale with no
defects....which it clearly wasn't.

Take a while to read the FTC Businessman's Manual on:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

Discuss its provisions with your attorney. I've found most attornies
aren't REALLY well versed in this Federal Law. Call the FTC and talk
to the nice people up there. They can help you too!

The best website with the most valuable information about sales of
goods, like this wonderful boat, is on:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/sales.html

It's from the Cornell University School of Law. Very informative.....

Sue their asses! Don't let them feed you any kind of "trade up" BS.
That's nonsense. Company policy or not, Federal Law says they must
REPLACE the boat or REFUND YOUR MONEY, every dime of it, and it's YOUR
CHOICE NOT THEIRS! Read the law....

I won't be buying another Brunswick Boat, either. The whole operation
is just too shady......I'd rather buy used.

Larry

-W
"Bert Robbins" <r6...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a9vdd0$kkc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...

> It explains a lot about you. You description contains too many dumb moves.
>

> You two need some common sense and a motor home.
>
> Bert
>
>

"Harry Krause" <hkr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CC33D80...@mindspring.com...

"Larry W4CSC" <spami...@knology.net> wrote in message
news:3cc33f18...@isp-east.usenetserver.com...

"Wayne "Ratbo" Canino" <b17of...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5DHw8.46034$WV1.15...@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net...

That Bayliner salesman ought to be forced to marry Skipper's daughter.

BUT - All they are "guilty" of is taking it on FAITH that the new product
they purchased would work as intended. I think they already know the faith
was misguided. It's time though to beat up on Bayliner - not the vistims.
Mistakes or not - they are still victims, not perps.

-W

news:a9vmmn$la0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...

Clarence

"Eugene Kearns" <ewke...@triad.brrb.com> wrote in message
news:13n6cuo8b5nfv045g...@4ax.com...
> If you do elect to keep this boat... and from what you
> describe, I hope you don't.... I absolutely would not take this boat
> on another excursion without the mechanic, shop superintendent, and
> salesman aboard.
>
> And I'd let them know NOW that they can expect a cruise.

> pontificated:
>
> # Gerald wrote:
> #
> # > Kim,
> # > Do tell. I'm interested in the whole story. Got any pics?
> # >
> # Hi;
> #
> # I really didn't expect the volume of email we received asking about
> our
> # boat. Since it will take me some time to answer all your email
>
>
>
> --
> 23' Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC.
> To Mail - Remove the Bee Bees from my address.
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News
==----------
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
> ------== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Ulimited downloads - 19 servers ==-----
>

Don't worry about us being offended Mr. Larry, we are well aware that
there are folks on usenet who would bash their own mother if they
thought it would bring attention to themselves. David and I have been
reading this news group for a number of years although for as far back
as we can remember, we have never had anything of value to add (until
now of course).

While the outcome of our plight is at the moment uncertain, we are
hoping that at least a small bit of good can be salvaged from our
misfortune by informing fellow boaters and fishermen of our experience.

To be honest, I find it quite shamefull to admit to the world via the
internet that we have been (pardon an old bag for using such language)
so throughly screwed by these people and their business.

If we have been stupid, (and yes, I guess I must admit that we have
been), it was only because we fell victim to trusting a slick talking
young sales staff who lured us with promises of not having to drag any
more heavy batteries up from the bilge, of not having to lay squished
between dirty engines fixing pumps and manifolds, of not wondering if
our thirty-some year old boat was going to hold together another year,
of thinking that it was actually possable to simply turn the key and
go...

Yes, we swallowed this slick sales pitch hook line and sinker.

One example of this outright deception is that the salesman (Terry)
told us that one of the "outstanding features" of this boat is that
absolutely NO wood or wood products are used in it's construction. Our
surveyor and boat yard tells us that the boat is almost ENTIRELY wood
underneath the thin layer of fiberglass. To be quite honest, we
consider this deception to be nothing less than fraud since it was one
of the points we considered when deciding to purchase the boat.

Again I am starting to ramble on. Sorry.

Peace to you and yours.

Kim
k...@vm.st

Then their next line is truly thought provoking, "If fishing is just
slightly more important than matters of life and death to you, then maybe
you're a Trophy kind of fisherman."

Do you think their "marketing" guys laugh over a beer as they write this
stuff?

Regardless, I hope none of us become THAT kind of fisherman.

news:28Jw8.46069$WV1.15...@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net...

Yeah, who do they think they are? They go and spend a WAD of money on
a brand new boat and expect it to FLOAT? Why they probably even
expected it to be a relatively safe boat. And even more, when the boat
wasn't even close to seaworthy, they expected Bayliner to make it
right!

......I was wondering, kinda tongue-in-cheek, if this was why they
named them "Bayliner"......if you get enough hulls on the bottom
of a bay......kinda like a real thick pool (ahem) liner.......
??

Cheers,

Mark
----------------------------------------------------

BTW: to de-spam the rtn addr, take out the "-garbage-"

Then, I guess, you know all about the company plants on the newsgroups
put here to discount, spread FUD and discredit any posters like
yourselves. You'll be roundly attacked by some Brunswick hack, just
watch.

And thank you very much for posting your problems. In 1997, I bought
a Sea Ray F16XR2 Sea Rayder jetboat. It has had mildewing seats,
brown gook leaking out of a side dress panel made of shoddy materials
stapled to a wooden form that looks like it came out of a packing
crate, latches that fall off held on with two sheet metal screws into
the plastic seat bases, 3/8" fuel line fed through 3" clamps to secure
it to the engine compartment bulkhead and forced onto a smaller 5/16"
hose barb on the engine with two hose clamps that came off, filled the
bilge with gas and might have exploded with me in it back in '97,
defective oil injection made of cheap plastic shafts turning in a hot
crankcase, and lot of little, piddling crap from Brunswick making them
so cheap. I cannot check my fuel tank inlet hose and vent because
it's buried up under the cockpit with no way to get to it, against the
AYBS codes the boat was supposed to be built to. It's a Brunswick
Boat. Sea Ray died the day they bought the company.

I didn't buy my Sea Ray from the local dealer, and when he found out I
had posted, as you did, my worst problems with the boat, Sea Ray of
Charleston refused to service my boat. Brunswick's contract with the
sleazy dealers has no clause to force dealers to service the company's
boats unless they sell it. This means that if you own a Sea Ray, or
any Brunswick Boat no matter what the name on it is, the local dealer
is under no obligation, whatsoever, to service the boat. Can you
imagine how Fords would sell if you took your Ford to a dealer in
Dallas and he told you he wouldn't service it because you were from
Chicago? How absurd. We need another FEDERAL law that says if you
post a brand name sign out front of your dealership, you become a
manufacturer's representative by default, and MUST service any of that
manufacturer's product that rolls onto the lot, regardless whether you
sold it or not....with stiff penalties to get their attention. It
would also help if they were FORCED to have COMPETENT TECHNICAL STAFF
before being allowed to own a business license or get the license
renewed....again with stiff penalties to get their attention.

Thousands of lurkers were shaking their heads "yes" who never post
here, because their boating experience was similar to yours. They
remember the flooding because the quality of construction of their
boat bomb was so low.

Being stupid didn't make the boat flood. You assumed, wrongly perhaps
but not criminally, that the boat's "Implied Warranty of
Merchantability" had been valid and the dealer had carefully done his
quality assurance tasks to make sure the boat was safe to use. For
the thousands and thousands of dollars the product costs, the LEAST
they could have done was put it in the water to test it BEFORE
offering it for sale. Because rigid enforcement of this Federal
statute isn't properly applied by FTC, big ticket dealers simply
ignore it. It's way past time FTC started ENFORCING this plainly
written law.

The surveyor is correct. It's a cored hull so they can make it real
cheap. David Pascoe, probably the roughest surveyor of floating junk,
has a great post on www.yachtsurvey.com or one of his sister websites
showing an accident where a Brunswick Boat, a recent Sea Ray, split
apart. The hull was so thin he peeled the fiberglass right off the
cheap coring with his bare hands.....how awful.

Rambling is rec.boats' greatest asset. Please keep posting your
thoughts and ESPECIALLY your results. Keep the pressure on, not just
applying it once. "They" are reading your posts. You can bet on
it....(c;

Larry

Hmm...great point! Let's put the three of them, without Kim's family,
aboard and haul their sorry asses out to sea 30 miles and just release
them. If they survive, the boat is fixed. If not, well, consumers
got a good shake today.

Let's hogtie the Bayliner and Brunswick execs and drag them down to
the boat for a little sea trial, too! Maybe the other Brunswick Boat
companies could get the message, too!

Larry

> watch...

> boat bomb was so low...

Thousands? FUD!

--
Skipper

> ...Let's hogtie the Bayliner and Brunswick execs and drag them down to

Been trying to hogtie and drag Herr Krause down for a little sea trial
against a Bayliner product for some time to prove a point. ...It will
never happen.

--
Skipper

I'm not buying. If that were my boat I'd have taken dozens of pics the
next morning. Especially the outside of the hull when she was pulled
out.

1+1 does not seem to be adding up to 2 in this story.

--
DAVe
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

-W

"David Smalley" <dr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3CC4257B...@bellsouth.net...

Mark Roberts just posted a reply to me about his 2 boys, 2 girls and
put a website pointer to his fishing boats. Tripod.com refused to let
me see the boat pictures because of "excessive bandwidth usage" and
told me to come back in ONE hour to see the pictures. I'd say there
are LOTS of lurkers clicking his webpage up, wouldn't you?

Larry

> Skipper wrote:

>> Larry W4CSC wrote:

>> Thousands? FUD!

> Mark Roberts just posted a reply to me about his 2 boys, 2 girls and

Thousands? Nope.

--
Skipper

> "David Smalley" <dr...@bellsouth.net> wrote

Water does not flow through an intact hull. There must have been at
least one opening that allowed it in. I would have found that opening
and photographed it, along with the other claims.

I'm still not buying the story (and if you look my posting history up
you will note that I'm no Bayliner fan)

--
DAVe
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

-W

news:3CC44114...@bellsouth.net...

Rick

Kim wrote:
>
> Hello fellow boaters and fisher(wo)men;
>
> In August 2001 my husband and I purchased a brand new Bayliner Trophy
> model 2002 fishing boat.
>
> Three hours after the dealer put our brand new boat in the water, it
> sank in calm seas (just off the California coast) due to unbelievable
> and inexcusable manufacturing defects.
>
> Without boring you with a lot of details, nine months later, we are
> STILL without a boat (warranty is made of unobtainium).
>
> We have owned several boats from large twin inboard models to smaller
> single O/B and I/O models. We have experienced and survived almost
> every common "emergency" on the water. But never have we felt so close
> to dying as we did only hours after purchasing our new Bayliner.
>
> If you are considering purchasing one of these boats (please don't), or
> are simply interested in our story, you may contact us at k...@vm.st
>
> Peace to you and yours;
>
> Kim

Yet, of course, no photographs of said misplumbings? How convenient!

8^)

--
DAVe
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

Probably can't even get to most of the plumbing on a Trophy, since it
would be below deck and forward. Might be an access port, doesn't mean
you'd be able to take a decent photo.

The description of what happened to that Bayliner certainly duplicates
what an experienced hand might see in a close look-see of a
factory-fresh Trophy. The ones I examined a few years ago were crap of
the first magnitude. The wiring harness alone was enough to give me the
shivers.

Don't shop where you can't work. Buy where you can work.

Kim:

Hind sight is 20/20, but I have always insisted on a sea trial for any
boat I was considering purchasing, new or used.

If nothing else, if the dealer was standing waist deep in water and
bailing for his life along with you he might have a slightly different
perspective on the seriousness of the problem.

Rod McInnis

Since you had the problem once, (and a mis-plumbed bait pump hose is a lot like
a broken hose some time down the road and yes they will break) and were scared
half to death you did of course turn on and test all systems before leaving
the dock the next time...right?
Not tryng to be a spokesperson for BAYLINER, though I like mine, but s**t
happens (even to SEA RAY owners?)
Of course the dealer/maker has liability issues...but implied warrantee issues
aside I'd check my important systems out before leaving the dock. Every Time.
You turn on your bilge blower before starting the engine(s) every time don't
you? Though you have been told the engines/fuel tanks don't leak by their
respective makers...

As I've said before the only major problem with my BAYLINER is listening to
people telling me what a bad boat it is.

Hope ya'll get some satisfaction

Mike

"Rick" <fhol...@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3CC47FE5...@NOSPAM.com...

Interesting that our resident Bilgeliner tout, Stormtrooper Skipper,
hasn't attempted to debunk this saga...*his* 22' Bayliner POS, BTW, was
built totally without the benefit of flotation, even though most
builders of power boats that size include it.

I think American labor unions get a large share of the credit for making
us a middle-class country. - George Will

I have your name and email address from your posting. I would like to
send your posting to the New York Attorney General so that he can
investigate and protect New Yorkers from similar experiences, but
first I would like some comfort that you are who you say you are.

Ken Cooperstein
http://home.att.net/~cprstn54/index.html

Ken
(to reply via email
remove "zz" from address)

Rick

> news:a9vmmn$la0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...

Rick

--
Chuck Tribolet
tri...@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: Best day job in the world.

> We finally retained the services of a law firm (Brodsky, Baskin and
> Miller) to represent us.

I do not own a Bayliner.

Bert

Bert's hoping to move up to a Bayliner some day...

Never, ever underestimate the political potency of lower paychecks and
massive unemployment.

I don't know how forthcomming Mr. Miller would be about discussing our
case, but feel free to speak with him. If you are a close friend, he
may possably at least give you the nod-and-wink to dispel some of the
(understandable) disbelief that some have expressed regarding our
unfortunate experience.

Please understand that we are not looking for anything more than we
purchased. We have no desire to vengefully seek millions of dollars
from some huge company, we have paid for a NEW boat and all we want is
a NEW boat. Nothing more, nothing less. (although at this point, our
money back would be acceptable too)

Mrs. Kim Genrich

PS, I'm glad that others in the Bay Area are learning how horrible this
has been for us.

kg

Ken, Your email box is "over quota".
If you make a little room for me I'll try sending again.

Mrs. Kim Genrich

> built totally without the benefit of flotation...

Rather than commenting on the boats of others that you know little or
nothing about, perhaps you won't mind telling us about the full level
flotation in *your* current boats. A few pictures would be most helpful.
All your boats do have full level flotation, do they not?

--
Skipper

"Harry Krause" <hkr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CC4A29A...@mindspring.com...

Any boat I'd own in the sizes up to about 25' would have enough
flotation to keep it floating if swamped, even if it were floating
upside down. *All* the SeaPros I've owned, three of them, had more than
enough flotation to do that job, and all the quality power boats I know
of up to 25' or so, and larger for any number of brands, include enough
flotation to keep them from sinking.

Except Bayliner, of course. Most of the Bayliners in the size range of
your POS don't have any flotation. It's one of the many, many ways
Bayliner cheats its customers. All the new small boats I'm considering
include flotation.

You're always touting Bayliners, Skippy. What do you think the following
post says about Bayliner "quality"?

> With the options we selected the purchase price was a little over
> $36,000.
>
> We took delivery of our boat at the Oyster Point dealership and after
> loading up our fishing gear, motored the short distance from Oyster
> Point to the bait dock in San Francisco. After purchasing a few
> anchovies we headed out under the Golden Gate Bridge with the intention
> of fishing the Duxbury Reef area just north of the SF entrance.
>
> Just after entering the area known as the Potato Patch, we noticed the
> boat responding very sluggishly and the bow starting to dive into the
> small swells instead of riding over them like when we started out.
>
> I opened the hatch in the motorwell (where the bilge pump is) and noted
> the bilge was wet, but didn't have enough water to trigger the bilge
> pump. I then opened the door to the v-berth, and just about lost it.
> The cuddy was filled with water to just below the door. The bunks were
> under water and all our gear was floating around. Our two dogs were
> soaking wet and standing up on the bunks as water sloshed around their
> feet. The porta-potty had also torn loose and come apart and was
> banging around in the berth, it's contents now spilled into the berth.
>
> My husband leaned over and took a peek into the berth and immediately
> kicked a bucket my way and yelled "Start bailing!" as he turned the
> boat around.
>
> Heading back into the bay with a following sea, thrusts from the engine
> drove the bow underwater. Once David had got our speed adjusted to ride
> along with the swells (with the bow just inches from the water) I
> stopped bailing to use the radio to inform the Coast Guard of our
> situation. David could not take his hands from the helm and throttle
> because we were in serious danger of broaching. When I keyed the
> microphone, the VHF went dead. The circuit breaker had not tripped, but
> we discovered later that the radio had been installed by the
> manufacturer or dealer (not sure who did the install) with a 1/4amp
> fuse which immediately blew when we tried to transmit. David instructed
> me to ready the flare pistol.
>
> I opened the storage compartment next to the seat on the port side and
> found our emergency kit floating around. Fortunately it had not floated
> into an inaccessible part of the bilge underneath the deck.
>
> As we passed back underneath the Golden Gate and found smoother waters,
> I looped the pistol and bandoleer from the overhead box and resumed
> bailing.
>
> Once in the bay, we were able to make a slow but steady way back to our
> marina at Ballena Isle. I continued to bail water from the berth. At
> some point, we noted the bilge pump starting to cycle. Opening the
> access hatch over the fuel tank sending unit revealed water up to the
> level of the deck. Water was reaching the rear compartment (and bilge
> pump) by spilling through a small hole in the top of the rear bulkhead
> where the fuel sender wire goes through.
>
> When we reached the marina we tossed the holding tank pumpout hose into
> the berth and drained it down to the level of the floor. We noted that
> our spare life jacket had auto-inflated at some point as it floated
> around in the berth. We removed the table mount from the center of the
> berth to gain access to the bilge underneath the floor and used that
> opening to suck the area below the berth deck dry. We also discovered a
> small rectangular opening in the floor beneath where the potty had been
> and used that access as well. For the next five hours, water continued
> to leak into the berth as we pumped it out. We informed the marina
> manager of our situation and they immediately brought down 115 volt
> emergency pumps and installed them in the berth. With these pumps in
> place, we called Olympic Boat Centers and explained our situation. We
> were informed by Mike (I believe he is the store manager) that the boat
> contained enough flotation foam that even if the last compartment of
> the boat were to flood, the boat would not go entirely under water and
> encouraged us to not worry about it and continue to enjoy the boat."
>

So far as power is concerned, does anyone believe it an accident if the
price of gasoline goes up at one company's pumps, it soon is matched
exactly at the pumps of other companies? - Jimmy Hoffa

news:aZnx8.41339$CH....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...

news:aZnx8.41339$CH....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...

> Any boat I'd own ... would have enough flotation to keep it floating if
> swamped, even if it were floating upside down. ...

> ...All the new small boats I'm considering include flotation.

So, not even one of your *current* boats is equipped with full level
flotation, not even the canoe? What about that touted "lobster boat" of
yours, surely it has full level flotation. Did your Hatteras have full
level flotation? Did your Swan? While we're on the subject, do you
happen to know if Buddy Davis hulls have FLF?

BTW, have any pictures of that nameless local fishing barge you claim to
own? Could you share one or two pixs with the NG? Too embarrassed? Well,
that really is understandable.

On another note, I did run into a 60' trawler with FLF back in November.
Seems the owner tried to sink her for insurance reasons but did not
fully calculate the affects of an Airex cored hull on his plans.

--
Skipper

I'm not sure we have all the facts here. Yes, some dealers can be
assholes and do go belly up. And yes, we have had one party in this
*alleged* affair spew forth, but that's not the whole picture, is it? My
experience with Bayliner has been quite different than the tale
presented by this novice boater. Bayliner has been very helpful and bent
over backwards to assist me. They've even provided replacement parts for
not much more than shipping costs. Perhaps Bayliners are better suited
for more experienced boaters. Ones who require purchase contracts
subject to successful sea trial and survey. Ones who properly break in
and get to know their vessel before venturing offshore or navigating
tricky waters such as found around the Gate. ;-)

The story does reek of an inexperienced boater turning a mole hill into
a mountain...

--
Skipper

Not again Skipper! With what your Bilgeliner?

Next time he should try the open ocean, and not the dustbowls of Kansas.
UD

http://community.webtv.net/capuglydan/CaptainUglyDansJack

I suggest you contact Christine Gregoire, our AG in Washington about your
situation as well. http://www.wa.gov/ago/COG.html .

news:M1ox8.61380$HH5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...

"N.L. Eckert" <nl3...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16195-3C...@storefull-2353.public.lawson.webtv.net...

"Skipper" <Ski...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3CC6C5CB...@kscable.com...

> Skipper wrote:

> Skipper,

We have only heard from one side in this dispute and yet you are "sure"
of what happened and why. You are ready for judgment without even
hearing the other side. That seems a bit presumptuous and even gullible
to me. Particularly in view of the experiences reported by others with
this company. Do I stand behind Bayliner, right or wrong? Well, no.

BTW, even million dollar gold platers have problems with new boats upon
delivery. Wouldn't you say taking a new boat offshore or to troublesome
waters before a good shakedown is a bit presumptuous and naive?

--
Skipper

Skipper, O Great and Wise One, please share your knowledge. You're
saying people should even get a BRAND NEW boat surveyed?

Skipper, O Great and Wise One, tell us how to "properly break in" a
boat. I feel much better now, knowing that this poor, ignorant,
demented fool went just a few miles in his brand new Trophy (which is
marketed as a tank-tough offshore blue water boat), and had all these
problems because he didn't "properly break it in." You know... now
that I think of it, I don't think I broke in MY boat, either. Oh,
gosh, now I'm REALLY worried.

Ron M.

news:3CC6F258...@kscable.com...

Bayliner should have plumbed the live well correctly. The error should have
been caught in the quality control stage. The dealer should have checked out
the boat before delivery. The buyer (of *any* boat)
should assume that none of this was done
properly, correctly, or completely and personally double checked everything
before entrusting life and limb to the presumed seaworthiness of a brand new,
unfamiliar boat.

Is Bayliner at fault? It depends a lot on whether the facts as related are
complete and accurately stated.

The buyer isn't at fault for an equipment failure, but the buyer has no right
to expect the rest of the world to protect him from himself or a failure to
properly examine a new boat.

Wasn't there a Silverton or Mainship that suffered a highly publicized sinking
on the eastern seaboard a couple of years ago? As I recall, the boat was owned
by a media celebrity, and two poodles, cats, or some other small pets were
lost. Brand new boat, and if I recall correctly a hose clamp came loose on a
seacock. No excuse for that, of course, but a casual inspection by a new buyer
would probably have discovered the problem.

Odd that there weren't scores of posts blasting Mainship at the time....but
every greenhorn wannabe knows its safe to jump on the Bayliner bashwagon,
right?

With boats and with people, statements that begin with "Everybody knows
that..."
usually indicate the author is personally uncertain of his facts and those
beginning with "They all...or always........" usually prove to be poorly
informed prejudice rather than carefully evaluated opinions.

We agree. However, how do we know that Bayliner does not stand behind
their products? That has certainly not been their practice in general or
even my personal experience.

Actually, we often do get both sides of the story in this NG. Recent
examples were the Panda generator dispute and BoaterEd.com. Remember the
Bayliner resale value controversy. Well, Tom Fournier, editor of the
Marine Blue Book certainly added facts and reason to that discussion.
Just suggesting we wait to see how this plays out before proclaiming
final judgment in this particular case.

--
Skipper

> demented fool...

Pleased you are finally showing some good judgment and recognizing your
problem. I'd be please to inform you of proper break in procedures if
you can be a bit more specific about the boat and power source.

--
Skipper

On this count I agree with Skipper. All boats new or used (and houses
for that matter) should be surveyed by a surveyor of the buyer's
choosing.

"Pay me now or pay me later!"

--
DAVe
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

It's pretty uncommon for people buying a
small trailerable boat to have a surveyor look over the finished product before
accepting delivery. Too bad. Another couple of hundred bucks for an informed,
professional inspection would represent mush less than one percent of the money
changing hands. Once a buyer takes delivery, it can be harder to get things
fixed
in a timely fashion and then there's the old
"must be the result of abuse and misuse" dodge to deal with as well.

A delivery survey is more common with new yachts, and considered absolutely
vital with custom builders. In fact, a surveyor will often inspect a yacht
several different times during the build process.

This problem could have been avoided if anybody, Bayliner, the dealer, the new
owner, or somebody hired by the owner to
doule check the condition of the boat (a surveyor) had spotted the mis-plumbed
live well. Nobody did.

Biggest mistake that many people make is to draw too many parallels between
buying a boat and buying a car. When a new car is delivered and fails a few
miles from the
dealership, (and any honest person that ever worked in the new car industry
will recall specific incidents of this across all trademarks), you simply get
out, call a tow truck, and go back to the dealership and raise H. Because we
can walk back to the
dealer, if necessary, most of us are used to taking the delivery condition of a
new car for granted.

We don't have the luxury of walking back to the dock. A new boat should be
examined with an attitude that "The consequences of a major failure could be
fatal, and a major failure is more likely to occur in the first twenty hours of
operation than in the next two thousand."

If the message that people take away from this thread is "don't buy a Bayliner"
rather than "it's important to thoroughly check out any new boat when taking
delivery" it will be regrettable.

The situation is probably a little less cut and dried than the "victim"
maintains, but there were mistakes made by the manufacturer and the dealer
here.

It's not uncommon in the big boat market. And it's not a bad idea in the small
boat market.

"Breaking in" or getting to know your new boat well before going offshore or on
a trip to unfamiliar waters is not such a strange idea. The old rule of thumb
was that it always seems to take about 100 hours to get the bugs worked out of
a new boat.

Capt. Bill

This "sinking" reminds me of another incident reported in this forum
three or four years ago. Seems this newbie had purchased a new Bayliner
and kept it uncovered on its trailer. The story goes that he took it to
a local lake and was rather occupied with his mate in the forward cabin
when he suddenly noticed that water was soaking the floorboards. Seem to
remember his reporting jumping up stark naked and hollering for the
Coast Guard.

He had absolutely nothing good to say about the !@#$%^ Bayliner that had
tried to drown him. Well, he just blathered on and on about that damn
boat not being able to hold water out. I asked him if it had rained
prior to his trip to the lake. He admitted it had rained cat and dogs
for days. I then asked him if he blocked the trailer up in front when
storing it. He said no one had ever told him to do that.

I calculated the combined weight of this fellow and his mate to be about
600 pounds soaking wet as they were, and estimated that this was their
first trip forward, and the heat of passion and all. I told him *my*
theory of what had happened and we've not heard from him since.
Understand he later took up hanggliding.

--
Skipper

Tom Fourier is as full of crap on Bayliner resale pricing as you are on
their general quality.

The best answer for the people is to cut down on extravagance and eat
less. - Republican President Herbert Hoover

Please...stop with the Bayliner apologetics, eh? The Trophies,
especially, are crap.

> Tom Fourier is as full of crap on Bayliner resale pricing as you are on
> their general quality.

Tom Fournier wrote:

"The Bayliner bashing is a form of entertainment by a minority of
rec.boats
subscribers. There have been rebuttals by respected members of the
industry
only to be flamed by people who choose to remain ignorant. Bayliner is
mentioned in this newsgroup probably 20-1 vs. other brands so the
flamers
are actually indirectly promoting the product. Many Bayliner owners have
thoughtfully responded with facts regarding their boats so people who
may
not have considered buying a Bayliner may actually reconsider after
having
read real life testimonials.
FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than
do
most other brands who compete in their size/price range.
FACT: Bayliner offers a high value for the money when compared to
competing
brands.
FACT: Bayliner is backed by U.S. Marine, the largest and most profitable
of
the over 4000 US boat manufacturers.
FACT: Bayliners are not overbuilt but are purpose built and should not
be
confused with boats that offer higher quality lamination schedules,
vinyls,
hardware, trim, gauges etc. at higher prices.
FACT: Bayliners are not the best built boats but do offer many thousands
of
people the ability to afford to enjoy one of our greatest past times.
Tom Fournier
ABOS Marine Blue Book Editor"

Last time I met Tom, he was an executive board member of NMMA and editor
of the most respected boat pricing guide in the industry. Last time I
met Krause...hell, anyone *ever* met Krause? We could nickname him, 'No
Show Krause'.

--
Skipper

Last time we questioned Tom, he admitted his pricing guides were NOT
based upon much more than extrapolations. "Respected" pricing guide?
It's a giggle and so are you.

We've been over this a million times, Skippy. The fact that *you* use
Tom as a source diminishes his credibility even more.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner. Any Bayliner.

It's no secret that George W. Bush hates campaign finance reform. And he
hasn't exactly been making a big secret of the fact that he is opposed.
And yet, as CFR passed the House of Representatives last week and
passage in the Senate seemed inevitable, Ari Fleischer comes up with
this whopper: "If campaign finance reform is enacted into law, I believe
that you can thank President George W. Bush, because he changed the
dynamic of how this phony debate has finally ended in Washington, D.C."
I guess in a way, Ari was telling the truth. Bush "changed the dynamic"
of the debate by getting so far into bed with Enron that Congress
realized they would actually have to do something about it. Of course,
giving Bush credit for this would be kind of like giving Osama credit
for improving airport security...

'FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do
most other brands who compete in their size/price range.'

Not because it's being applied to Bayliner but because it's a claim tossed
around a whole lot in the industry, not just by Bayliner. They can't all be
right.

Is there a source (besides the BUC book) that summarizes the data to support
this claim?

news:3CC73446...@kscable.com...

"Harry Krause" <hkr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CC7317...@mindspring.com...

Available through many lenders and public libraries.

Still won't really prove a statement that is
anywhere nearly that broadly based.

Bayliners have very good resale value in certain areas of the country, and the
Pacific NW is one of those areas. Figures collected here about resale value
(and for many brands in addition to Bayliner) would seem astonishing in some of
the US Markets---primarily those at lower latitudes.

Others post here to report that you can't pay somebody enough to haul away a
two year old Bayliner in their specific areas.
Maybe so.

*If* the "absolutely zero resale value" myth had a lot of legs under it, you
would see a people hauling Bayliners to the NW to turn a tidy profit. The
professional dealers I know have found that the *savings* available in the
areas where the boats are not as popular are usually only about the cost
involved in hauling the boat across country to sell it up here instead.

What Chuck, I think is trying to say here is.
Your better off buying a boat here from the advertisers in the Boat Rag
(should I tell them) and or the Broker he works for at the time (can you
say comminsion), Rather than going out and doing any leg work yourself,
and finding the boat (and surveyor) you like for the right price, and
hauling it back here.
Then again you can always buy a Bayliner.
UD

http://community.webtv.net/capuglydan/CaptainUglyDansJack