a pending plot for my first novel!

John Burrows loves to write. That's what he's been doing since the age
of 13.Fourteen years ago John's parents died in a plane crash, so he's
been in the care of his God-Father:Charles Lepley.Leply got him
employed as head fiction writer for Gore Mag Inc. seven years
ago.John's been out of work for awhile then he gets fired.It turns
worse when his girlfriend dumps him.Seeing that his life is going no
where he takes his little bit of money he has and set's off for his
vacation spot{a cabin in the woods} with his handy typewriter to write
his first his first horror novel.That's when it starts.He begins to
have nightmares about his parents dieing.Then he starts seeing
things...things that no one else can see.His sights start helping him
write his novel...a novel that reveals a lot of things to him.These
revalations turn him into a madman as he returns home to finish his
book.

Now as I said it is a pending plot and i was hoping for help from you
guys...maybe critique it...criticize...do whatever to it.....thank you
guys for your time...hope it wasnt dreadfully boring.

I didn't read your "pending plot," but I'll give you some very good advice all
the same: Never NEVER broadcast your ideas in a public forum like this. Doing
so is a little like throwing birdseed on the lawn and asking the hungry
sparrows to just look at it and comment. If your concept has any merit at all,
it will be stolen, and there won't be a thing you can do about it. If you have
an idea you think is interesting, then run with it. But don't be foolish
enough to throw it out to the world at large before you've made something of it
and not expect to get burned.

It's the most idiotic idea I've ever heard. What, a novel about
writing a novel? Who the fuck is ever going to want to read that?
Would you?

Besides it's your first novel, so you know fuck-all about writitng
novels.

Get back on the bus and shut the fuck up, man. If you get an idea for
a story some cunt somewhere might give a fuck about, get back to us.
Until then, take your wanking elsewhere.

Kinwankers.

--
AH

Since you didn't read his idea, Patricia, let me put your mind at
rest:

No fucking WAY anybody is going to steal that idea. Nuh-uh.

Still, nice to know you're still vigilant.

--
AH

allright look here my man....im not gonna go your imature route and
come back with a ton of obscene language...im sorry i cant be such a
perfect writer such as yourself!i didnt say i wouldnt come with
sarcasm.im just startind alan....therefore it was a pending plot not
something i sat on for days and days on end thinking about it...its
something i through up in the air and said what the hell maybe this
board can help...so next time for future references dont put your 2
cents in.......*****************************************************
Thank you!

Appropriately placed capital letters and punctuation wouldn't hurt, either.

Jesus Hope take a Midol. Stephen King already wrote the above at least once, and
probably several times. (Like I have time to keep up.)

>a ton of obscene language...

fuckcuntshitpisscocksuckershitskullfuckwitfuckfuckcuntfuckmotherfuckercocksucker
cuntcuntfuckshitpissfuckcunt
fuckcuntshitpisscocksuckershitskullfuckwitfuckfuckcuntfuckmotherfuckercocksucker
cuntcuntfuckshitpissfuckcunt

Golly gosh! I Hope you're not serious!

While I'm not an expert on novels, you'd think you'd have to think days and
days for a decent plot- unless you were a super genius, but there are few of
them. Don't most have to think up a lot of ideas, and then discard the bad ones
and then make up a workable plot? I'm not exactly sure, but I' m sure there's
something about writing down things and practicing in there too.

Hana no Kaitou
http://peachcoloredsky.keenspace.com <--- Now updating again!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fancy_lala
"You write the life that's vividest'- Jarman

What you kneed to know:

One of the ways to learn answers to your questions is to read the back
issues of this group, available as a product of a goooogle grooooups
search.

You don't know what your questions should be. One of the ways to learn
what your questions should be is to read the back issues _yattata
yattata yattata_.

Two pissy little whimperers in one week do not a happy newsgroup make,
although it does please certain marksmen no end. You can tell a pissy
little whimperer by his assumption that graceful and effective use of
derision, invective, and profanity is associated with immmaturity.
There, that makes us even, m-wise, as far as immature goes. Mature
folks are not particularly concerned with the concept or constitution
of "mature" as a descriptor or component of behavior, attitude,
appearance, or social intercourse; cigars, wines, nymphets, writings,
maybe.

I think it is cute to be a wannabe novelist, and even cuter that you
think anyone other than Mommy and your really good wank-partner Liam is
likely to encourage you on the basis of a stray lump of prose-like
wordery that obviously escaped you unnoticed only to fall out of your
pantleg and into your awareness.

I say none of this to discourage you (or any other pissy little
whimperers who may chance by) from wanting to become a writer or
novelist, from striving toward those ends, or from regarding what you
do as worthwhile and commendable. It is without question worthwhile and
commendable. Think of that classic Gaussian Curve: someone has to
occupy the 90 percent not allotted to Dedicated Declaimers, Well-known
Writers, Successful Scribes, and Charming Charlatans.

Think of this, also: Being A Writer is different from Becoming A
Writer; Writing A Novel is different from Being A Novelist; Being There
is different from The Party.

One of the marks of immaturity in a psycho-social sense is a lack of
appreciation for the role of investment. I do not speak of monetary
investment, of which I have little and little knowledge. Think of
investing time, work, dedication, study, punctuality and
punctliousness, intelligence, and discernment. Believe that the tale of
Aladdin is an expression of the immature hope for transformation of
wishes into realities without the necessary-in-the-real-world drudgery
of showing up on time every day and doing what you have to do whether
or not you feel like it.

There is a point at which one can declare, "I have written a Novel."
There is a point at which one can demonstrate, "I am a Writer." One
does not arrive at those places by rubbing one's lamp or wick (unless
you are Philip Roth, and you aren't). One progresses toward these
admirable ends-that-never-end by passing through sufficient time. While
one is making the passage, one must apply significant resources to
critical matters of inspiration, organization, logical assembly,
mechanical assembly, strategy, tactics, salesmanship, marketing, public
relations, and monetary investment. All the while maintaining a
semblance of sanity and productivity in a hostile, dangerous, predatory
world.

The length of time is very short for some, but I submit that the amount
of intellectual and moral energy invested, if leveled over the
population, will be seen as approximately equal for all genuine
successes.

My seem generator tells me persons who plop a dab of some
barely-identifiable substance into a newsgroup and request an
evaluation are hoping to hear The Natural Incantation:

"Hey, I am an _expert_ at discovering natural talent, and boy does it
shine out from your (story idea, excruciatingly simple but penetrating
prose, language sense, musicality of your thought patterns, _et
cetera_). Don't worry about a thing, kid, you're bound to be a success.
Don't discard even one scrap of your work: someday it will adorn the
walls of sophisticated domiciles, if you get what I mean."

Well, OK, kid, here it is:

You are a Natural. Success and acclaim will be heaped upon your work
and your self. History will pivot on your publication dates; however,
the way Fate operates is like this: if you work diligently and hard,
study intelligently, deny yourself the luxury of self-deception, give
and receive with true charity, acknowledge debts and satisfy creditors,
find a way to live that does not deprive or endanger others, be an
enhancement rather than an aggravant, and stay as sweet as you are,
there is a very, very small chance you will be prepared if fortune
offers you her crutch.

Fate does not smile on lazy, thoughtless, self-involved wannabes, even
though they might be Natural as Nature her own self.

In closing, let me remind you: as in automobile driving and
love-making, there is no good reason not to perform with precision at
every opportunity.

Resp'y,
--

Frank S

Writing about writers or writing can be clumsilly self referential. Bad
thing for a first novel.

Oh...

Note... if you include wish fulfilment in your novel, make it your reader's
wishes, not your own.

Is Gore Mag real? (I am not into this genre) if so, they'll hate you saying
they sack people.

That's story, not plot. Are these events causally related? D

Oh yah, we all hunger to read about folks whose life is going nowhere.

Self referential.

Oh fer fucks sake,

Who cares about the frigging novel by now?

What a satisfying ending! He never finds out why he is having nightmares,
never battles evil, just succumbs to it. Weak.

Ok, try this for a start. I'm only willing to spend 10 minutes, so I won't
do you a whole plot, just a beginning. And horror is not my genre, so it
will likelly be not great....

John has been having nightmares about his parents dying. His father was a
horror writer. John takes leave without pay to vacation alone and go finish
writing his father's last novel, which is about a monster that lives in the
spirit and needs a human sacrifice in order to become flesh and blood.
John's marriage is on the rocks... his wife wants him to use his inheritance
to buy a big fucking house and an SUV and she'll give up work and have kids.
Taking time out to write novels is not in her plan.

Gradually the nightmares get more specific. Something evil caused the plane
to crash. The something evil is in the airplane with his parents. At the
same time, John starts finding it harder to tear himself away from writing
the novel. He'll write without eating, bathing. His wife calls up and he
brushes her off. They row, she implies she will leave. The nightmares get
realler, and he realises his mother is trying to tell him something. But
somewhere along the line he has stopped caring about the nightmares because
the book is more important. He resents the dreams, blames late nights and
too much coffee.

His wife arrives. She finds him stuck to his chair with urine, emaciated,
dehydrated and eating instant coffee granules by the spoonful. She prises
him away from the computer, gets him showered, and ready to leave because
he has to be at work in 2 days. He agrees the book can wait for a few
days... he is shocked by how sick he looks.

Joy

fundoc <fun...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lBgH8.4924$gJ.12...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...

>snip

Just a little advice.
Don't set your sights so high as a novel. Try short stories first and
get comfortable with developing plots, characters and building the
tools that contribute to a good story. A plot is just one very minor
part The plot really doesn't matter.

Dan

Terrific advice, like all the people who told me that before I tried to get a
book published I should first start small, with articles in local newspapers,
then work my way up through magazine articles, essays, and maybe, eventually, a
book. Rubbish. Write what you want to write, write it well, and aim high.
There's far more virtue in aiming high and falling short than in simply
lowering your expectations to suit your current situation.

I suspect HP Lovecraft wrote it once or twice too.

--
"Such a day, rum all out - Our company somewhat sober - A damn`d confusion
among us! - Rogues a-plotting - Great talk of separation - so I looked sharp
for a prize - Such a day took one, with a great deal of liquor on board, so
kept the company hot, damned hot; then all things went well again." (Teach)

You should listen to Butler, she knows this all too well.

Please excuse me for this may be a duplicate.

I almost never quote the bible as I'm not a Christian but your
response reminded me of a certain passage and how generalizations of
it lead to misunderstandings. If you would please indulge me here, I
promise not to get evangelical. A wealthy Hebrew, perhaps a Samaritan
or Pharisee, the buffoons of the "New Testament", asked Jesus how he
could be saved. Jesus responded by telling the man to give away all
his possession and follow him. Now many have misconstrued this story
to mean only paupers can enter the Kingdom and worldly possessions are
de-facto "evil". Bzzz, thanks for playing. Wrong. This was very
specific advice directed to one individual. While certainly there is
a general truth contained in this teaching on the danger of
attachments, but we must be careful not to take the teaching out of
context.

What does that have to do with this thread? Good question. With my
little summary in mind, remember my advice was offered to a specific
person, Jacob. It was not meant as generalized approach to writing,
discouragement nor was it aimed at writing to getting published. It
was targeted toward helping him see another way at developing basic
story telling skills, without expending the enormous efforts necessary
to write a nove. From examining a small sample from his creative
efforts and realizing he was calling it a plot, led me to conclude he
has a weak grasp on the basics. What he offered was not a "plot" but
a few introductory paragraphs, a reflection of beginnings that have
been used numerous times before. It was like calling, "It was a dark
and stormy night", a plot.

Certainly it could be developed into a plot or as an element of a
story line, but it's a far cry from a plot now. Rather than debate
this, I recommended that the writer begin with the kinds of projects
are more easily completed and will help him acquire the critical
elements of effective story telling without investing the enormous
energy needed to complete a novel. You may feel that advice is
rubbish and you are entitled to that opinion. But, encouraging a
budding writer to embark on long term risky programs seems
inappropriate to me.

He should certainly write what he pleases and learn in a way that is
conducive to his temperament, but he should hone his basic story
crafting skills. Many do this while at college, others achieve
similar training in the school of hard knocks. That school is
difficult and discouraging. I'm was only offering him a way to
acquire the toolkit with less effort. Calling that advice rubbish is
prideful nonsense. It certainly isn't advice on getting published for
I have none to give. I only write procedure manuals and for my own
amusement. Yet in doing this, it is clear to me that skills are
developed incrementally.

It seems the you are reacting to the advice given to you early in your
career about getting published. It sounds like the standard cookbook
approach to getting published and as such is has some validity. I
agree that incremental approach is often more about learning about
publishing and may constrain the creative effort. That may or may not
be a good thing. The writer who began this thread offered a rather
dull and empty piece of work, (I'm sorry Jacob but that is my
worthless opinion of your "plot" offering.), yet I recognized and
appreciate his interestand efforts in story crafting and wanted to
encourage him to develop skills with shorter exercises that would be
both educational and more timely than what would come from attempting
a monster project.

As to how a more polished writer gets published I can only offer
common sense business type advice. I'll leave most of that to the
experience and wish those attack that aspect of writing, Good Luck.

Apparently you're not only not a Christian, you're no great shakes on your
grasp of biblical lore, either. Ever hear of the parables? They were stories
told to teach lessons to the masses. The story you reference was not, as you
say, advice given to one specific person, but rather a parable, meant to teach
a lesson to anyone who heard it.

[snip way too much self-justification]

If the incident in the bible were a parable, your criticism would
carry more weight, but I fear your reaction is more funded on an
emotional response from seeing your favorite bit of liturature used in
a way you don't like.

The incident I referred to was not a parable. It was taken from that
part of the new testiment written to document the life of Jesus and
his mission. Certainly you can take lessons from these incidents but
parables. Your position appears that any narrative in that book is a
parable denegrates this aspect of that writing and the underlying
life. You would consider the birth, death and resurrection parables.
Only if you consider the books written by the MMLJ as historical time
pieces fictijonal tales about an indiginat Hebrew faith healer who
was convicted of treason and exceuted under Rome's capital punishmnet
laws can that be case.

Jesus taught with metaphors and captivated his audiences by telling
htem with stories at teach ins and dinner parties (feasts and bread
breakings), It was one of his major vehicles. He used other means as
well,incuding individual converstaions, sermons and actions. Every
thing he said or did ws not a parable and what he taught was not
limited to the ordinary words he used. Sadly, it is you that is
debasing your sacred book.

Unfortunately you have reinforced my contention that a fine bit of
writing is and has been massively misunderstood and abused for a long
time. The prejudices we bring to any writing often affects us deeply
and usually blindings us to anything but ourselves. Bringing this
into focus is one of the writer's challenges.

Know your material so that your criticisms effectivle communicate your
concerns rather be dismissable as the rantings on an inane fanatic.

Dan

I'll be sure to get right on whatever you're saying just as soon as I get
someone to translate it from gibberish for me.

By the way, you really need to hire a stern editor before you get near your
computer again. Your posts are too long by about two-thirds.

Homerrrrrrrr!!!!! Another run for Mr Pussydoc.

Zen

What're you whinging about Davy. Just wait six months and pretend it's yours,
like the rest of your tired schtick.

Gawd. Carn't spell, carn't smile. What use are you exactly?

Zen

Okay. I read through a few posts and I'm not sure anyone rally cares
to take you seriously. The first advice is probably the best, that you
don't post something like a plot outline until you have worked it out
yourself. There are writers here who actually try to make a living
from it--so beware.

Since the cat is out of the bag, let me look at it and tell you what I
think.

A novel about a writer writing a novel is a daunting task. What might
be interesting here is to include the novel in whole or in part--which
is what I guess is your intention. Say, as in Stoker's Dracula, where
the diaries and letters of the four (was it four? I can't remember
right now and it's not handy-I read it 15 years ago or so.) main
characters carries the entire plot. I think this is a much neglected
device and it would be interesting to see what you could do with it.
What could prove more interesting still is to eliminate yourself as a
writer completely as Stoker did. Perhaps you could tell the immediate
story in John Burrows "dream diary" which, perhaps, a psychologist has
recommended he keep. In other words /no omniscient viewpoint/. Like
the reader has come upon the cabin in the woods--or wherever he ends
up, and finds the dream diary and the novel manuscript. And without
overt comment from you, the real author, we read and explore what
happened in Borrows mind and how this reflected what happens in the
novel--and, if he turns into a Jason the Ax murderer--perhaps this is
covered in a police report or a newspaper article.

Eh. Or maybe not. Just my impressions.

---
Art

> possibly help or guide me in a way....thanks! [...] maybe critique it
> criticize...do whatever to it.....thank you

Since you stated that you are attempting your first novel, I have
some advice to offer. Do with it what you will. I won't be offended if
you find it of no use. <Grin>..

In my opinion...

If you want to be a good writer (not just a hack), your first
concern is having something to say. It doesn't need to be prolific,
prophetic or profound (though it may), but a story has no purpose if
something isn't being said.

What you have to -say- is carried through the voices and actions of
your characters, not the plot. I've begun many a story with, what I
considered, the perfect plot. My minimum for plot changes per story is
five. Why? If you breath life into your characters (by having something
to say) they'll begin to define their own motivations, actions and
consequences (Plot).

When writing your story, remember these five things: They will save
you time and heartbreak:

1: Don't edit while you write. Worry about fixing it up later.
2: Don't explain every little detail unless it's necessary.
3. Tell your story in real-time by using your characters in scenes.
4. Use narrative sparingly. Long narratives can be boring.
5: Say something through your story.

Hope this helps!

Dan Brown

"Dan Brown" <danb...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3D6752FD...@adelphia.net...

*Everyone* has "something to say".

Do you really believe that or are you merely quoting the manual? Of
course a story needn't say anything to have a purpose. Its purpose
could be to entertain, and make its author a shedload of money.

If the plot is not the "actions of your characters", I'm at a loss to
think what it could be.

Hello? You are expecting this guy to listen to your advice when you
say, in the same paragraph no less, that plot is something different
from the actions of your characters and that it *is* your characters'
actions.

Why? There can be a great deal of benefit in editing while you write.
You get the first piece you write right, then you have set the tone
for the rest. Your voice is established, it becomes easier to write.
Did you not consider that?

Don't explain every little detail of what? I think you could
profitably add "don't be vague" to your list.

If you mean "don't indulge in exposition", you're right, but you've
found a damned poor way of saying it.

Anyone who'd like to point out why War and Peace (long narrative) is
not boring is welcome to step in. Anyone who suspects that this guy
has no idea what "narrative" means will be too busy laughing to
bother.

Or don't bother. You could as an alternative create some great
characters and have them do fuck all to no great purpose and still
have a great book. Or work up a twisty plot, parachute in some
cardboard cutouts and party - shit, it works for Steven King.

This kind of advice is all very well but it is so limiting. It only
works for a particular kind of book. Not everyone wants to write that
book. I advise you, Dan, to consider the career of Graham Greene. He
alternated books that used difficult, grand themes (that is, "said
something" through their stories)with what he called "entertainments"
(diversions that he hoped would be fun but were not intended to
provide much food for thought).

Zen

"Don't bother with a long narrative." "A plot's not important."

Riiiight. Next he'll be telling would-be photographers "Just take
loads of photos. Focusing is not important. Don't bother taking
exterior shots."

Good. You are learning to have discipline. You make sure you try to
get things right. Why do you think that is a bad thing? Taking care is
not the bad thing we are led to believe. Writing a ton of rubbish that
has leaked from pen to paper with barely any mediation is not going to
make you a better writer. When people say practice makes perfect, they
don't just mean "do lots of it".

Zen

very few authors make a shedload of money, at least not right away and not
on their first publications. if your lookingf or a shedload of money, look
elsewhere.

--
Blessings,
mer
RPG Game loosely based on a combination of the Mode series and the Xanth
series of fantasy books, both by Piers Anthony.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ultimatepiersanthonyrpg/

"Dr Zen" <gol...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5e7da04d.02082...@posting.google.com...

The best advice is not to give advice. Because, as sure as the world turns
on its butt, you advice will turn out to be crap sooner or later. But don't
take this advice to close to heart because, as I just explained, as sure as
the world turns on its butt, this advice will turn out to be crap sooner or
later.

Rob

> The purpose of not editing while you write is to keep your thought
> process focused on what you are trying to convey. Wait till you have
> your thoughts comlpleted before going back to edit (IMHO). I've lost
> many ideas by editing in the middle of a thought. (Not following my
> own advice) <Grin>...

I believe that writing should be creative work. And though editing
certainly doesn't exclude creativity it is by it's nature critical. I
have a hard time being creative and simultaneously critiquing my work.
One can get hung up for 20 minutes on one sentence because it's "not
good enough" to withstand incessant judgement during it's gestation.
It's like analyzing every piece of bread for perfection before making
the sandwich. Just make the damn thing, if something's broken fix it
later.

The truth of the matter is many of the things "perfected" during the
editing-as-writing phase may well be trashed later when you decide to
discard the page or scene. So editing it is a waste until such time as
you know it's important enought to keep.

And the more you edit-as-you-go, the more you get possessive and
protective about every little diligently polished gem. It makes it that
much more difficult to trash it and move on.

I've written 5 pages just to get to the point that I understand a scene
well enough to *begin* writing it appropriately.

Just write. Go back later and finesse the thing. Upstream someone
congratulates another for having the "discipline" to fuss with spelling
errors. That's not discipline in my estimation, that's busy-work.
Discipline is getting out 20 pages in an afternoon, good or bad.
Rearranging components, once created, is a far easier task.

My views all.

Please try very hard to remember that "its" and "it's" are two very different
words.

Oh I do. Very hard indeed. And still I get it wrong. In fact despite
Strunk & White's first principal, recited as a mantra for years, the
use of the apostraphe in the possessive still doesn't hit on all
cylinders for me. This is undoubtedly the least of my faults.

But feel free to visit as often as you find it satisfying.

"Principle." S/he means "principle."

You overlooked my misspelling of apostrophe.

Not so. I figured it for a tyop. Suit yerself.

You were right in both regards.

The key word in my post was "discipline".

Good. Because if you do get hung up on it, you will finally produce a
sentence that will withstand "incessant judgement", whatever that is,
when it has "gestated".

That is precisely right. If your bread is mouldy, the sandwich will be
poor.

This attitude explains why your writing is so fucking poor.

That isn't the point. You are working to improve your writing, not
simply create lots of it. It doesn't matter whether the interim stuff
is discarded.

That's like telling a photographer he oughtn't to bother focusing his
camera when he is taking pictures, just in case he might later decide
they are not good enough for the album.

You could put that like this: the more proud you will be of your
writing.

As with most things, it ought better to be valued by quality not
quantity.

That's bollocks because the work done translates into mastered
technique. Understanding how your writing works makes it easier to
write well.

Then you are not a master of your tools. Given your lack of
understanding of how English works, no surprise there, but don't hold
it up as a virtue.

How will you be able to?

Well, of course that's what you think. You don't write with any
discipline, even here.

No it is not. Discipline is having the capability to restrain yourself
from simply spewing out 20 pages of shite when you know that you can
write two good pages with proper effort.

Rearrange your mouldy bread all you like, the sandwich will still
taste of mould.

>
> My views all.

Your views all suck? Your views all... what?

Zen

On my first day here I realized how combative you are. This from only a
handful of insult-laden posts. Sadly it seems that this antagonistic
approach is the working method here. Just this once then...

Incessant is in the dictionary. Gestation is of course metaphoric.
Some writers use metaphors among their other tools.

Well the good thing is the bad thing about metaphors; they are as wrong
as they are right. I think I made the point, that if you belabor the
parts you overlook the whole.

Maybe you don't, but I have different methods between letter-writing
and fiction-writing. You haven't read any of my fiction so you don't
know how fucking poor it is..\ A personal attack is a lot less
time-consuming that reasoned argument, I assume that's why you prefer
the former.

Continuing to feign dialogue here: There is one school of thought that
says you have to compose every sentence until it is without flaw, then
write the next. Another says to write the general structure and fill
it in later. I prefer the later because the perfection-at-line-level
approach is such a waste of time if I I'm forced to discard 20 pages of
precious little sentences. Or a character. If you've got all the time
in the world, and you know every aspect of what you want to write
before you ever begin, then another approach may work for you. I
assume it doesn't, but that you simply want to quibble.

That was exactly my point. I assume your only point is that you're
right about what ever you happen to be mumbling.

That's a valid point. But calesthenics is not a foot race. No matter
what you're writing, if you're concentrating on doing it well and
improving, you'll improve your skills.

A metaphor is as good as it is bad; any photographer knows he or she
has to shoot a hell of a lot of film to get good pictures. You don't
go to a shoot and labor for only two prefect pictures, and then go
home. You shoot lots of pictures and you edit and modify them after the
fact. I think the same is true of writing. If you disagree, by all
means attack me personally.

Right. And as a result the more reluctant you are to do as Faulkner
says "kill all your precious darlings" when the time comes.

The valuation comes after the project is finished. Not after the
conclusion of every tidy little clause.

Calisthenics is not a foot race. All the work you did on the sentences
doesn't make a novel good.

Is insult your only skill? Different people write in different ways;
your writing method may work well for you. After having tried it I
conclude it doesn't work for me. Having read the unedited first drafts
of a few major authors I think the approach works well for others.
I've read numerous stories of long writing spells "getting to know a
character".

Is insult your only tool?

At one level a writer should write a sentence well before moving on to
another sentence. But how can one understand anything at all about
structure, though you might not find structure important, by
concentrating so hard on component aspects? This is not to say that
sentence construction and refinement aren't important. It's just that
they are not the only important thing.

Is personal insult your only form of dialogue? It sure makes it easy
for you to avoid discussing any substantive discussion.

We can all define discipline for ourselves I think.

You're killfiled. Clamp those jaws on the next pant leg. After all
the references to the quality of my writing I think yours is pathetic
for just the kind of reason I would imagine; you don't have a sense of
the larger picture. You can insult and make vague unfounded assertions,
well-crafted no doubt, but it all adds up to nothing because you lost
track of what the subject was.

Unless of course your only intent was to insult. In which case you did
a great job.

Afterwards, you flesh it out...make it
pretty...expound...expand...illucidate...strengthen...obscure...and take
care of the mechanics.

Everyone grab a notepad. Get this etched correctly in your mind. This is
critical.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice only makes perfect practice,
and perfect practice makes perfect. You will never achieve perfection by
endlessly repeating anything in the wrong fashion. Practice doing it
right, or you'll only get very good at doing it the wrong way. Look at
all the successful failures around us. They do what they practice doing.

What is the most important thing to be gained from school, training,
courses, seminars and workshops? It is to learn the process of learning.
Doing research teaches you how to do research. Know where and how to get
the facts and figures. Don't waste time being ready to bark out
everything you ever knew about every subject. Just be prepared to access
the pertinent data at the proper moment.

Now for the bonus. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money
is the root of all evil. It greases the wheels and is a nice way to keep
score, but it is better to love people, pets, places than to love things
and stuff. Be passionate about beauty and excellence.

If you want to be a Writer then write. Write everyday, and strive for
excellence. Read and then write some more. When you like it, submit it.
Forget friends and family members...they aren't objective. Write, read,
rewrite, put it away for a week, review, rewrite then submit to an
editor.
One who does not write is no better than one who cannot write...so,
write.

Darwin
http://blueskydays.net

<snip>

If (practice = perfect practice) and (perfect practice = perfect)
then (practice = perfect).

Shawn

Z. mate you're talking to people who think the secret to writing
success is to get in touch with your fucking Muse. So long as the Muse
is on the line, anything that comes out is gold.

They carry on believing it even after they've read the shit they've
been left with. There's no hope for them. You're wasting your time
trying to talk any sense to them.

--
AH

Thanks! You definitely caught me off guard with that! <Grin>...

Another reason for not editing while you write: I have spent hours
editing scenes only cut those same scenes (or parts of them) for
various reasons. Doing that a few times made it clear in my mind that I
should just write and edit it later.

The easiest way for me to curb the need to edit while writing is to
know exactly where I'm headed before I begin (that doesn't mean there
won't be changes). If my thought process about a story hasn't already
solidified, then I'm just writing aimlessly around a concept (or two).
In that situation, I'm not really writing, I'm working on an exercise.
Of course, good things do come out of such things.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words...

Dan Brown

Funny how the mindset dictates method. If I know exactly what a scene
is supposed to do and how, where it doesn't have much improv room to
move, I find myself writing far more exactingly. Even anal, mulling
over a two sentences for 15 mnutes.

But if the scene has few specific parms, it can be two to five pages
showing how a character can be overly sensitive for instance, I can
really go loose until I find a groove. Then I whittle it down to the
right size, tighten it up, etc.

Shaddap, cunt.

Okay. In turn I'm going to give you one good slapping. Hope is right.
It's a waste of time but who knows? Maybe you'll actually think about
what I tell you instead of thinking you know it all.

So's "porcupine". Your point?

Don't worry. I know you don't have one. Instead of standing back, and
saying yes, that was a shithouse sentence, pretentious and silly,
you'd rather be a smartmouth about it. Nothing new there. There's a
queue of talentless pricks from here back to the inception of AW who
have taken just that stance.

The secret to apt metaphor is that it *is* in fact apt. Things created
by artifice cannot be said to "gestate", however pretty you think the
word looks when it adorns your posts.

I think if you actually understood what I had to say about apt
metaphors, you would know that you are wrong.

And I think *I* made the point that if you do not take any care of the
parts, the whole will not be worth while.

Well yes, I do, but in neither would I have used "between" instead of
"for" in that sentence. You are not going to try to claim that when
you write fiction, you suddenly become a fluent and skilled writer,
are you?

I don't need to. I already know. You can tell the tree from the leaf,
dude.

You want reasoned argument? You don't know a run-on when you see one.
You cannot spell common words. You mistake an attack on your writing
for an attack on your person because you cannot divorce your writing
from your person. This is what makes you a poor writer.

You are not getting reasoned argument because there is nothing to
reason. Your lazy, ill-disciplined approach to writing, coupled with
your belief that all that flows from your pen is gold, is why you are
a bad writer.

You are a poor reader too.

If you had read what I had written with any comprehension, then you
would not require it to be repeated to you. Discarding pages entails
no loss if the finished page is excellent. Is that *so* hard to
understand?

You're not good enough at this game to even merit a kicking. You are
also too dim to realise what an indictment of your powers that is.

Well, dude, *that* is what ever [sic] I happen to be mumbling.

Not only a poor metaphor but neither could you spell it.

Hello?

Hello?

Why should I? You agree with me in every specific except the
conclusion, which makes you look foolish enough for it not to be worth
the bother.

That, dude, is what discipline *is*. You might think all you write is
gold but a good writer knows that some will be iron pyrites.

If you cannot properly judge even one little clause, what's your
chance of evaluating a whole project correctly?

Dude, I'm not trying to get fit. I'm trying to become beautiful. Dig?