ParadiseLost

This hit the media on Oct 10 when a group of scientists/archaeologicals from Spain announced this on their website.
Google "julius caesar" exact spot stab and you will get well over a 100 hits.

Besides no photos of this find there are also no sources cited for their claim that what they found was a memorial built by Augustus on the exact location?

This memorial is the major problem, I have been on many blogs and no one (esp those that read Latin) has been able to find a source for this claim.

The closest is Suetonius who writes that Augustus "walled up" the the building which Latin experts interpert as closing-off the entire building by walling-in the entrance(s).

It is very odd that a major discovery lacks any detail and I haven't been able to find any references to this in the English language ANSA Italian newspaper which is very odd.
But esp no claims to the media by official Italian sources who always jump at just the hint that a discovery can be tied to a famous person (usually an Emperor)?
Also no other archaeologists in the media seem to be jumping on this bandwagon?

Anyway here is a blog that I and others responded too about this claim http://tinyurl.com/9djtxey if there was a source believe me someone on *that* blog would have found it.

My main question is besides the lack of a source for this memorial, is how do you built a large concrete and walled-in memorial inside an intact building ~2050yrs ago that survives today when the building is down to its foundation below the ancient floor level?

If they mean the exposed remains in plain view actually *in* the Largo that experts believe is the rear section of the Curia Pompey (Senate Bldg) many (myself included) believe that that is the exact location of the assassination.

They plan on opening the Largo d. Torre Argentina to tourists in 2013. Regards, Walter

annhig

As ever Walter, you are a mine of useful information regarding the antiquities of Rome.

thank you for posting.

sylvia3

I thought it was a very interesting claim, too.

ParadiseLost

Thanks! I know it's a tough sell, an anonymous poster on a messageboard with terrible writing skills (I just had to look-up the spelling of anonymous) questioning the claim of a big-shot archaeologist.

This project would be under the control of Rome's Archaeological Dept (whatever their name is) who in the past have told some historical and archaeological whoppers for the sole purpose of getting World-wide press coverage.

Like; 'Archaeologists Discover Royal Palace of the Kings in the Roman Forum' ~2004.
And this on-going excavation's discovery goes viral in the World media.

Great except it was 1st excavated and discovered in the late 19C plus I could have saved them alot of digging as I and million of others have the excavation diagram showing the exact lay-out of this structure's remains on our bookshelve.

'12C Grave Discovered in the Forum Predates Romulus' 8C Founding of Rome'.
And it goes media viral.

Great except from where they discovered this in the Forum of Caesar they could see the Roman Forum Museum which has 10C burials with grave goods discovered in the 19C.

And a short walk (400m) up to the Palatine Hill's (where the mythical Romulus lived) Museum shows artifacts from settlements in the 10-14C and even into the Late Stone Age from the Palatine Hill.
Plus it's only logical that people were living there prior to Rome's founding in 753BC!

In 2007 a biggie saying that they discovered the Lupercal which was the cave where the she-wolf nursed Romulus and Remus and a major shrine in ancient Roman times.

Great except in was in the wrong location and the mosiacs had nothing to do with that event.
No other archaeologists in the World accepted this but the media eat it up.

And there are others.

This why I question this 'Augustus Memorial' which no one it seems can find an ancient source for?

Now as far as the "Exact Location/Spot" they claim.
Well... I do have a horse in that race <smile>.

They haven't exactly stated where but they *seem* to be pointing to the exact location I've been posting about since 1998.

And I really hope it is as that would be really cool for this history buff nerd if that exact location gets official recognition from Rome's Archaeological Dept.
Like a plaque marking it as the assassination site, getting into guidebooks, etc.

But usually after the initial publicity release they go silent as they have achieved their goal in the media which they usually can't defend.

For a condensed version of what I really believe is the assassination's exact location scroll-down to my March 1, 2012 post.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...lking-tour.cfm
Regards, Walter

ParadiseLost

http://www.wantedinrome.com/news/200...d-in-rome.html OR
http://tinyurl.com/8s6ezhq

This website has its HQ in Rome and 48hrs after the the announcement from the discovering archaeologists website in Spain this article was posted.

A red circle in their photo shows the exact spot which is right next to "the tree" I've always used to show where I firmly believed since 1998 was where Julius Caesar was seated when stabbed.

I'm assuming someone connected with this excavation pointed-out that exact location and they (the website) didn't just choose it at random without a source?
In the article they do cite a comment made by a Rome Archaeologist (see below).

So it's very likely they either got this information 1st hand or from another Italian media's 1st hand source?


The article reports that a Spanish newspaper (El Pais) claimed they had found the "bench" (I assume mistranslated seat or chair) that Caesar was sitting on when attacked but the article goes on to say that was "unfounded".

But what is amazing to me is that Rome archaeologist Marina Mattei confirmed that this seat has not yet been found.

"not yet"? Does she expect its discovery is even possible <smile> ?

This is what Caesar's honorary chair looked like www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/sella.html

Caesar's was gilded (in gold) and awarded to him by the Senate as an honor, he would sit in it at Senate meeting, on the Rostra, etc. Think of it as a portable throne.

Cassius Dio mentions that chair as one of the many bad omens that happened in the night before and the day of the assassination.

'Indeed, to some the incident of his golden chair seemed ominous, at least after his murder; for the attendant, when Caesar delayed his coming, had carried it out of the senate, thinking that there now would be no need of it."

We have to assume he brought it back in when Caesar finally arrived but even if he didn't someone would have offered up their chair in its place, being ' Dictator for Life' does have its perks.

The other Senators would also be sitting in chairs like that one (they fold-up and are portable) but his was the fancy golden one that they all dreamed of one day sitting in.
Regards, Walter

ParadiseLost

Opps... Senators sat on benches (subselli is a bench).

At least that is what they sat upon in the actual Curia (Senate bldg) in the Roman Forum.

This was a temporary set-up because the real Senate bldg had burned down.
But no reason to think that this hall didn't already have seating available but who knows?

So it is a *possibility* that his honorary chair was taken away and when he arrived he did have to sit on a bench.

Either way chair or bench, wooden or marble I wish them luck in finding it <smile> Regards, Walter

ParadiseLost

I'd just like to add a couple of posts I posted on a blog, they are long, rambling and detailed as usual but it has pictures <smile>.

Also it's 9 days out from the 1st and only press release on this site.

I google daily using all different types of keywords but still nothing official from Rome's Archaeology Dept, Italian newspapers (but only their English versions) or any comments made by other archeologists/historians in the World?


Oct. 16, 2012 ar 7:45PM;

Thanks! But actually pin-pointing the exact spot wasn't that difficult.


In 1996 all I had was a guidebook saying "Behind Temple B a podium (foundation) that certainly belongs to the Curia Pompey where Julius Caesar was murdered."

Standing there I just assumed that the murder location was somewhere under the modern street where the majority of this structure is located.


In 1997 I discovered something back then called the World Wide Web which had a thing called a 'search engine'.

And Bingo! Diagrams, models, photos, references, etc relating to the rear section of the Curia Pompey.
Plus reading about the 4 out of 5 major ancient authors** that have him seated when attacked.


Where else in a rectangular hall with a monumental front entrance and Senators seated on the both sides would the place of honor be and where would the builder (Pompey) likely want to place his statue to be seen by all except against the back wall dead center.
The Curia Julia is a perfect example of these placements.

Although one end (~30%) of this structure is missing the excavation diagrams show it intact either by color or an outline.

But in a bold outline they also show a short section of that missing side's wall projecting out beneath where the modern arched or squared retaining wall is.

I leaned over the sidewalk railing and saw it below me (stone blocks).

Now I visually projected a vertial line out and then projected a horizontal line from the rear remains and I had the complete width of this structure.

So now finding the exact center was easy esp because in this concrete core 2 niches were made for stone block supports (seen in the photos***).

So it was one intact corner |_ then 1/3 of its length a stone support #, and then 1/3 over again to the second # and then 1/3 over again to the missing sections corner �.: so |____#____#�.:

And as luck would have a tree *|* grew in the exact middle of this section #__*|*__# ~1m from the back wall.

If we could transport that tree back 2056yrs ago it would be growing inside the building dead center very likely thru small low podium where any VIP speaker would sit.

I couldn't have asked for a better 'X marks the spot' in my directions.

But what amazed me was, no one (in English at least) had ever posted about this exact location before?


~2000 I responded to a post on a European travel messageboard about a hotel around the corner from this site.
I posted to him the Curia assassination location and told him to check it out.

He emailed back thanking me and saying he was an archaeologist going back to Rome on holiday but a few years before he had worked on an excavation within the Largo d. Torre Argentina but not the Curia remains itself.

He said the exact location was somewhere under the street as was told to him back then.

Now my original post to him had no cites or references, I emailed them to him (like the ones above).

He replied back that he now was convinced that that was the exact location as I claimed based on the existing evidence.


** http://tinyurl.com/8jq56d8 Suetonius, Cassius Dio, Plutarch, Nicolaus of Damascus and Appian; Everyone except Dio mentions JC was seated.


*** http://tinyurl.com/939luqj (NZ newspaper's JC 'exact spot' location, their source?)
http://tinyurl.com/8s6ezhq
These photos show the 2 seperate stone block supports #__*|*__#, the 2nd photo shows the one on the left and if you look to the right edge of the photo you can see part of the one on the right.

The photo was taken on an angle with a telephoto lens which makes the tree look like it's closer to the left # one but it isn't, it's dead-center.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


October 18, 2012 at 2:57 am
It's very odd that in the past week I've been unable to read about any other archaeologists esp the Italians that have commented on this *major find*?

Well 2 Italian archaeologists have said something. 1 stated the area will be open to the public in 2013 and the other 1 denied a Spanish newspaper's account that they found JC's bench.
But that's it�Nothing Else!

I read ANSA daily which is an Italian newspaper's English version and they are *always* reporting even minor archaeological finds relating to the ancient Romans�but here nothing???
But they certainly got alot of World-wide media coverage!

And once again *IF* that is the area they are talking about and everything seems to point that way I'd like to again add my opinion, sorry it's long and rambling but its got pictures. Regards, Walter


When I use the term 'groundlevel' I mean in 44BC.


This is easy to determine because the latrine that was attached to the Porticus of Pompey is a few meters right (north) of the Curia is excavated in this complex and the bottom of the modern retaining wall is at that latrine's floor level.
http://tinyurl.com/platrine http://tinyurl.com/dlatrine http://tinyurl.com/pnlatrine curved section is end of latrine. Bottom right-corner of photo is roughly where the missing side wall of the Curia's northend �.: would be.


Go to this photo http://tinyurl.com/9m6qjel Start at the left; Reddish vertical wall is on top of Temple C.


Just to the right of it is a grayish vertical wall (GV wall) which in this photo looks to be part of the Curia's remains behind it but it is actually also on Temple C.


Behind that GV wall is where the Curia's left intact corner |_ physically butts against Temple C http://tinyurl.com/tcbacw1 (otherside) http://tinyurl.com/tcbacw2


To the right of the GV wall see the wall that goes right at a slight downward slope, that is the highest point of the Curia's existing podium remains.
http://tinyurl.com/thickw it is a thick concrete core wall, the far end has ancient diamond shaped Opus Reticulatum facing.

Now to the right of the bottom of the GV wall see what looks like a stone step �_ those are the stone blocks that faced (meaning covered) the concrete podium.


The top step � is the 4th row of these blocks, the 1st row below is on an extended lip of this concrete podium |_.

And in my photos the podium extends downward ~1m |- and possibly goes even lower to support and keep the building from settling unevenly.


The groundlevel is at the 2nd row and below that I see a square opening, this is possibly the drain from the latrines on the right into the very deep wide alley/channel seen in the website photos (I believe this was covered-over to match the newer ~55BC groundlevel, Temple C ~225BC Temple B ~100BC both with a lower earlier groundlevel).

Now moving to the right we see the 'red circled' stone blocks support, the "Tree" and then a *Doorway* into the concrete podium at groundlevel. And then to the right again the 2nd stone blocks support.


Also I have a photo of the back of these podium remains and the modern retaining wall, a skinny person could squeeze thru it sideways.

This photo shows to me that it was cut in vertical sections one at a time in a slight vertical zig-zag fashion. Meaning the cut veered alittle inward then that section was removed, the next cut about a hand's width back outward.

So the concrete podium was cut in a straight line but the cuts were angled creating a zic-zag front, meaning it wasn't a flat front (opps, we just had a minor earthquake that poured concrete would leave on the temporary wooden forms.

And no remains or evidence that this was faced with stone blocks like the side and rear were.
So it was chopped off from a larger podium [|^|````] in order to build
the modern retaining wall ^.


This structure we see today is ~3m wide and ~2.5m high from groundlevel to the highest point that I mentioned above (wall) and I'd guess the remains are ~15+m long.

Now in the press releases it sounded like this was the structure they were talking about as a "memorial" with a 3m width and ~2m height but no length mentioned.
Plus the concrete core and the wall claim.


But I think they are going to eventally come out and show a wall section that is exposed on this podium as the "memorial" they claim to have found? Just a guess though.


Here's my take as it has always been about these "walls" and such on top of the *remains* of the concrete podium.


The Curia was a high elevated building with monumental stairs and porch.
As was the Temple of Saturn and the Temple of Castor and Pollux in the Roman Forum for example.

The Temple of Saturn had within its concrete podium large rooms where Rome's treasury was kept.
The Temple of Castor had 25 rooms in its concrete podium.

The outer edge of a concrete podium supports the walls which in turn supports the roof.

The interior of the podium supports the floor.

If you wants rooms within the podium you can do this;
If you the pour concrete in the shape of a barrel vault you have an arched support and a void beneath it.
Build them side by side ^^^^ and you have rooms.

I wonder if it is possible to use thick concrete walls?
Like the walls of small rooms, you have length and width-wise supporting walls [__] interconnected with narrow walled passageways ====.

Perhaps then just vault over the small open and narrow areas wall to wall, fill-in the ^^^^ low troughs with concrete T^T^T^T and marble slab the floor?


Bottomline; I don't know exactly how this was done but I firmly believe these rooms and such were in the Curia's podium at least in this rear section with an outside entryway.

Its been done before and the evidence points to it being done here.

Also those walls on the Curia's podium are thick concrete and many sections are faced with either thin roman bricks, Opus Reticulatum or this type of tile \\\\\ which are all ancient facings.

So it's not a later Medieval structure built upon the Curia's ruins (very common).


This stone block support(?) was likely used somehow to bear a load. It's placed in the concrete podium and goes down a minimum of 2 more levels?
I wonder if there was another on the opposite side in the missing 30% section?

Perhaps to support a free standing column on the floor above?
[``+````+``]
http://tinyurl.com/scpillar wideview http://tinyurl.com/scendp2

And oddly the area to the left of it is a small ~1m+ square room with no entrance except a vertical opening ~6in wide in the left upper corner and 1 wall section is faced.


Ok back to that 'Doorway' and using my photos when this area was excavated.


If you stepped thru that doorway thru the concrete and enter 1m inside and turn left and there is a narrow passage between the front of the concrete and the remains of a concrete wall ||:===.

This passage has at least 3 stone steps up and end . to the lower left of the tree + [.`+``] http://tinyurl.com/11tree.
So this appears to be a little room with a stepped entrance?


But it's *really hard* to explain how a modern tree with roots is growing there inside that space if there was a concrete floor there? A deep room used for storage?
Perhaps with a wooden floor? Put a trapdoor in wooden floor to store seldom used items below?


Ok as I stated podiums often have rooms and the evidence points to the Curia having them.


I admit I'm stumped at the function and lay-out of these but I do believe these rooms are original to the building and were *in* the podium below the hall's floor level.


So moving right to left in the photo http://tinyurl.com/9m6qjel The Doorway is just on the otherside of the stone block support.

So enter http://tinyurl.com/11tree, turn left, up 3-4 steps and there is what appears to be a room dead-center of the middle of the back wall's length with the "Tree" that I use in my posts for the podium with chair & statue above.


On the otherside of this room is the square enclosed room (~1m+/sq) http://tinyurl.com/scpillar


And on the otherside of that is this larger area (at a higher elevation than the other two's floor level) with the highest thick wall http://tinyurl.com/thickw

So we have a doorway entering into the podium at roughly groundlevel, 3-4 stairs leading up into a room, an enclosed ~1m+/sq room with a section faced and what appears to be a larger room with a high wall also with a section faced.


Now where would the Curia's floor be located?


Below these structures?

Then these 3 rooms would have been built in the rear of the Hall on the Hall's floor?

So then the building couldn't have been elevated but was at groundlevel?

The doorway and steps can't be explained nor the different elevation of the higher room built above the concrete podium's core?


Somewhere in the middle?

Then we would have place it at the level of the higher room because of the concrete podium below it.

This would encase the bottom section of the other 2 rooms but leave the upper part of their walls projecting thru the floor, so why build them |�|?�

So when the Curia was 1st built (55BC 11yrs before the assassination) you'd have thick concrete core walls in different sections ___| �| [__] forming rooms in the rear of a beautiful Hall?


The only logical explaination is that the Curia was an elevated building built on a tall podium, as always believed. These rooms were high enough below the hall's floor for a man to walk thru.

And the exact spots in this temporary Senate Hall where Julius Caesar was seated, stabbed, died or had an unconfirmed memorial built are just places hovering in the air above the remains of the present day podium.


Ok lets *assume* that sometime in the near future they come out with their report with photos of this exposed section that is actually in the Largo d. Torre Argentina, which reports so far even though vague seems to highly suggest that is the location they are talking about.

And lets just again *assume* that this 'Augustus Memorial' is one of those "rooms" or "walls" I mentioned above on the podium/fountation.


The only way to prove that outside of an inscription or brickstamp from the Augustus' era is;


That the elevation of the Hall's floor in relation to the existing remains *MUST* be proven (meaning physically found either below this structure or around the base of this structure) in order to substantiate any claim that anything at anytime by anyone was ever built *on the actual floor* that was inside this large temporary Senate meeting Hall.

If no physical evidence is found and not even *1* ancient source mentions an Augustus Memorial built inside the Curia Pompey marking Julius Caesar's assassination site...Well, we'll just see how this plays out.