SBC/Yahoo: DSL Basic - S Package - ROUTER?

One comment: Don't!

I used to have it, I switched.

Sonic.net: cheaper (for the fixed IPs), actual (as opposed to seriously
fictional) support, better features/services, they won't sell your info to a
guy selling penis-enlargers in Korea, and you'll be helping keep the world
safe for democracy. Just look through some of the previous (and probably
subsequent) postings. I read earlier today that they might be having a free
modem promotion too. It's way worth paying the < $100 for a
Netgear/Linsys/Whatever router if required.

Jamie

Thanks for the props - yes, you're right, we're cheaper for static IP, which
is just neato, as we're used to being the higher priced higher value player.

And yes, you're correct about the free equipment deal right now. Details on
our products are at http://www.sonic.net/sales/dsl/sbc/

BTW, I'd suggest that anyone purchasing broadband take a look at
http://www.dslreports.com/ for lots of good customer feedback.

--
Dane Jasper Sonic.net, Inc.
(707)522-1000
mailto:da...@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net/

Key fingerprint = A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9 CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53

In <XLjua.12271$JX2.7...@typhoon.sonic.net> on Thu, 08 May 2003

Anecdotal, and thus relatively meaningless.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>
CABLE MODEM/DSL GUIDE: <http://Cable-DSL.home.att.net/>

"Jamie Fox" <jami...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:<Juhua.12242$JX2.7...@typhoon.sonic.net>...

Actually I find such things to be much more illuminating in
general than the frequently badly written, rushed or otherwise
biased reviews in many publications. Epinions, for example,
to me is a wonderful resource.

Once you throw out the obvious out of left field comments,
combine it with your own experiences and the traditional
reviews, I think you end up with a better picture of a
product than was previously possible from public sources.

--
* US civilians killed in 9/11 WTC attack: 2,902 by Iraqi WMD: 0 *
* Civilians killed in US invasion of Afghanistan: 3767+ Iraq: 2197+ *
* Number of hijackers on 9/11 that were Afghan: 0 Iraqi: 0 Saudi: 15 *
* http://www.iraqbodycount.net [2003-05-06] http://tinyurl.com/9dib *
* *
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces: pjkusenet64 @ ekahuna27 . com *
* Simple answers are for simple minds. Try a new way of looking at things. *

I use dslreports speed test all the time.

It helps me understand when there is no problem apart from my own
impatience, and a couple of times, after a new installation, the ability
to compare my speed with the speed others have reported in the same zip
code has helped me determine if I was seeing a typical installation or a
problematic installation.

The speed test also helps to locate other users in the same area with
the same provider. That's also helpful to understanding what problems
your provider may be having, and possibly find out how others have dealt
with those problems.

Jerry

Almost anyone who wants to be competitive in this geographical
area is going to use SBC (actually their spinoff company ASI,
but you wouldn't know it) DSL raw transport, because there
really isn't much in the way of viable competition for the raw
DSL signal part of the business.*

However ISPs like Sonic and RawBandwidth provide a much better
service overall than SBC/Yahoo because their actual internet
connectivity, services and support are much better in general
than those you get from SBC/Yahoo etc.

*(there is competition however, chiefly in the form of
a company called Covad - although Covad was rescued from
bankruptcy by a big fat loan from SBC, so don't expect
to see them competing head-on with SBC any time soon)

So's this newsgroup. And yet we're all here.

--

Graham Freeman

It depends what you mean when you say "SBC". Everyone (even CLECs like
Covad) could be described as SBC California (formerly PacBell, the copper
people) resellers.

Many ISPs purchase from SBC-ASI - the DSL, Frame and ATM arm of the SBC
hoard. One of these is Sonic.net - another is SBC Information Services
(SBC/Yahoo). So - we're both resellers of SBC-ASI service, and they resell
SBC California service.

Here's the idea:

SBC California -- SBC-ASI -- Sonic.net
| \ Raw Bandwidth
| - SBC Information Services (SBC/Yahoo)
| - Earthlink
| - etc..
\
- Covad -- Speakeasy
\ SBC Information Services (interesting!)
- etc..

- XO Com -- etc..

In other words, Sonic.net is an independent ISP, and we run our own products
and services.

In <QGmua.256$eM2.17...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com> on Thu, 08 May
2003 06:20:32 GMT, Jerry Asher <jerry....@nospam.theashergroup.com>
wrote:

Speed test sites are often wrong, and DSLreports is no exception.
Better to use FTP to transfer large files to known local servers.

In <oSoua.12319$JX2.7...@typhoon.sonic.net> on Thu, 08 May 2003
08:49:24 GMT, Graham Freeman <gra...@sonic.net> wrote:

Presumably because of the entertainment value, since the heat tends to
overwhelm the light. ;-)

they use Covad for business grade SDSL circuits, something ASI can't or
won't provide.

In <86he84p...@skylane.kjsl.com> on 08 May 2003 21:27:01 -0700,
Javier Henderson <jav...@KJSL.COM> wrote:

>That's why you're here?

Pretty much.

>I say this without malice.

I took none.

>Obvioously, I seem to be fascinated too. Sort
>of like watching the proverbial train wreck, I reckon.

Yep.

My understanding was that the Alcatel DSLAMs that SBC-ASI uses do ADSL only,
and that they use Covad primarily to provide IDSL services.

Data is free. Information requires work.

I got my start in electronics (literally) by dumpster diving. I
learned quickly that there was a diamond at the bottom of every
garbage can and that if you dig enough, you'll find it.

The trick in reading opinions, authoritative reviews, and pontifical
judgements, is to be able to seperate out the garbage from the gems.
I read the product reviews on cnet, epinions, and newsgroups before
buying. It doesn't take much effort to ignore the unsubstantiated
opinions and judgements. Eventually, what's left are serious attempts
to disclose deficiencies in products and services. While each opinion
represents a single data point, it is possible to evaluate a product
or service based upon a somewhat larger number of anecdotal reports.

Incidentally, if one cannot use anecdotal evidence, the only other
option is authoritative opinion. I'm not sure either is superior to
the other. Have you had a peer review performed on your opinions
lately?

--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
(831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us je...@cruzio.com

In <29lnbv06o3ldhqb9b...@4ax.com> on Fri, 09 May 2003

>option is authoritative opinion. ...

Another alternative to anecdotal evidence is scientific sampling, which
is the method I prefer.

I do that all the time. I needed two D-Link DWL-900AP+ wireless
bridges for a customer. I bought 3ea so that I could have a spare. I
upgraded all three to the latest firmware and discovered that one of
them would not save its settings. The other two are now up and
working just fine. Scientific sampling would say that one has one
chance in three of getting a lemon. Is that sufficiently scientific?

Anyway, I believe in science but I always ask for free samples.

[...]

I agree. What I often look for are trends. These occur pretty
frequently on Epinions and other review sites for example. Since
the reviewers also seem to have a strong interest in having their
review stand out and get more people to read it, I don't think
there is much motivation to just agree with the other reviewers.
Matter of fact, I'd say there's a disincentive. Therefore when
you spot trends, I think they're generally significant.

Also agreed. One of the reasons I find the user opinions so
valuable is that reviewers of tech products almost never do a
thorough enough review to touch anything but what that particular
reviewer thinks is important. I'm often frustrated by the traditional
reviews because the review is usually topical (no doubt in part
due to the common reticence to criticize an advertiser's product)
and because the reviewer simply doesn't live with the product long
enough to encounter various issues. One thing about raw user reviews -
you learn about the broad spectrum of everyone's pet peeve - whether
it's the color of the mousepad or the sound the floppy drive makes.
Taken together, this stuff is oftentimes surprisingly useful.
Taken together with other reviews and personal experience, I think
it makes an excellent contribution towards transcending the economic
incentive not to criticize and helping to achieve a more objective
picture of complex products.

* Civilians killed in US invasion of Afghanistan: 3767+ Iraq: 2233+ *

* http://www.iraqbodycount.net [2003-05-10] http://tinyurl.com/9dib *

In <2s4pbvckmi2vr54ev...@4ax.com> on Fri, 09 May 2003

No -- sample size too small.

How big of a pipe does Sonic have, and how does it compare to SBC's pipe?
What about redundancy?

I'm probably the only one here who can really answer this well. Clearly,
SBC has millions of DSL customers, so they're going to have much larger
circuits by comparison, so I won't address that further.

Sonic.net's Internet connections are large, appropriately sized, and quite
redundant. Our principal data center is in Santa Rosa, at our new
headquarters building. This building is owned by Sonic.net, and we built it
to suit our purposes. Our datacenter has Leibert power and cooling, an
active FM-200 dry fire suppression system and a diesel which will run
indefinitely.

There are three discrete and physically seperate fiber entrances here, and
we bring in fiber from two different carriers. We have dual SONET OC-12
circuits from SBC, plus a DWDM gigabit link from another fiber carrier. Our
private SBC SONET ring is dedicated to us, is fully physically diverse two
two different SBC COs, where we've got SONET nodes. The alternate fiber
carrier has paths north and south, around the east bay and down 101 as well.

We use these links (which, BTW, are served by a set of redundant Cisco
routers, on redundant power) to interconnect to our facilities in San
Francisco and San Jose. At these sites, we purchase bandwidth from various
carriers, including UUNet, Cable and Wireless and Layer42. We also do
extensive peering.

DSL customers are served on fiber OC-3 and DS3 links, here and at our
Stockton colo, depending upon where the customer is located. We're one of
only two independent ISPs that I'm aware of which have OC-3 ATM for DSL
customers - most ISPs have muxed T1 links, or perhaps a DS3.

Much of the network link utilization status is available for viewing at
http://stats.sonic.net/.

The bottom line is that Sonic.net is one of just a few large regional ISPs
which have serious infrastructure.

Had a little chat with the ASI tech who was trouble-shooting
a Sonic DSL installation I was doing for a friend. The
premises had two POTS lines, and he had to call a special
SBC 800 number to get an operator to get ANI. I asked why he
didn't just use the "secret" SBC read-back number.

Are you sitting down?

He said that ASI had been organized as a _CLEC_, and as
such, could not legally use the SBC infrastructure directly!

P.S. His panel truck had SBC emblazoned all over it.

Of course he couldn't just call his own cell and look
at the callerid because SBC took those away 2 years ago to
save money. I guess they have to give bellsouth 40%.
Or maybe he was in a dead zone. Can you hear me now?

Did he bust out laughing after that?
Well it's true anyway. But you do realize oral sex doesn't qualify
as sex in america, right? They're still weighing whether they'd
be in a better position to screw the competition by merging it back.

So they repainted the trucks with 'SBC' already and billed the
ratepayers for it. No really, I love SBC.

yeah, last truck out here doing a line diagnosis still had the "Pacific
Telesis" paint on it with that funny asterisk logo they used for only a
year or so.. The lineman laughed and said they are too cheap to repaint
their own trucks.