Opening fullscreen windows using JavaScript

Here is a rather visible example of why doing so is really foolish:
http://david.us-lot.org/tmp/fullscreen.jpeg

--
David Dorward http://david.us-lot.org/
Redesign in progress: http://stone.thecoreworlds.net/
Microsoft announces IE is dead (so upgrade):
http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/2003/5/30/microsoft-announces-ie-is-dead

Looked real cool at 800 x 600 ;) <-- (a wink for the sarcasm impaired)

Audry

--
I am not a professional woman.
tawdry glamour who is at smile global dot com

Hi David,

How does using a 2752 x 1200 jpeg file make a case for not using Javascipt
to open a maximised window.

I'm obviously missing the point of your argument, could you demonstrate the
problem again by using your own site http://david.us-lot.org/

Regards - Keith

That is a screenshow of my system after a site opened a fullscreen window
using JavaScript. A large portion of it appeared in the dead space where I
don't have a screen, and the main content was split across two screens with
a gap of a few inches between parts of characters (or it would be if I had
turned flash on). It also looked exceptionally silly.

No. My own site doesn't open fullscreen windows.

Hi again David,

Am I wrong then in presuming that you were making the point, that for
whatever reason, it is foolish for any site to open another maximised window
using Javascipt.

As an example, (only the relevant lines here) I called your site from
within a site with:

<script language="JavaScript">
<!-- Begin
function Start(page) {
OpenWin = this.open(page, "CtrlWindow",
"toolbar=yes,menubar=yes,location=yes,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes");
}
// End -->
</script>

<a href="javascript:Start('http://david.us-lot.org/')">David's site</a>

and your content displayed ok in the newly opened window.

Regards - Keith

>> Keith wrote:

> Am I wrong then in presuming that you were making the point, that for

That's what he's saying, yes.

Regards,
Geoff

--
http://68.145.145.156:8080/
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Geoff_Ball
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Web_Core_References
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

No, that's pretty much what he's saying. Opening a link in a new window is
foolish. Maximising the user's browser is foolish. Doing both at once?
*Very* foolish.

--

Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

No, you are correct.

<snip> Evil JS </snip>

Your system might lend itself to full screen windows. Lots don't, and
authors should not assume that everyone has a system comparable to their
own.

Opening a link in a new window is a defendable decision in some cases.
Here's an example:

http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/BrowserBugsSection/Opera7Bugs/Opera702Bugs.html

Opening a link in a new window should always be done with the implicit
consent and awareness of the user from the start, otherwise it is an
anti-user design: a large consensus of usability studies and usability
experts agree on this.

Opening a link in a new window can be prevented by more and more browsers.

To neutralize the target attribute to open a new window in Mozilla-based
browsers, add this in your user.js file:

user_pref("browser.block.target_new_window", true);

To neutralize the window.open calls ( prevents both unrequested popups
and requested popups from being loaded in new windows) in Mozilla-based
browsers:

user_pref("capability.policy.default.Window.open", "noAccess");

Resizing the user's browser window is very foolish. That's why more and
more browsers have settings allowing users to veto such scripted
commands (resizeTo() calls and moveTo calls()).

DU
--
Javascript and Browser bugs:
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/

<script language="JavaScript">

There is nothing really evil about this javascript function, except
1- that status bar is missing and can be imposed by Mozilla-based
browser users and Opera 7.x users. Removing the status bar is removing a
browser functionality which is supposed to give to the user genuine,
reliable, unaltered browser info, notifications (about connection, http
requests, url, etc.) to the user.

2- The OpenWin has not been declared as a global variable, so if the
secondary window already exists, or is behind the opener, etc.. no code
has been edited to prevent to abusing the user's resources by destroying
the popup and re-creating it again.

The new window's dimensions will be those of the opener (persistent data
being saved) and its position will be 15 pixels down and 15 pixels to
the right of the opener, assuming the opener is not maximized. The 15
pixels offset is a de facto standard on MSIE for Windows and
Mozilla-based browsers. The logic behind these 15pixels is to best make
sure that the new window will be offset a little and will help the user
noticing that a new window, a secondary windows just was created.
So, in no way can people assume that the given Start(page) function
create maximized or full screen windows. It's relative to the opener
window dimensions and position as it was last saved by the os (at least
under Windows).

DU

Of course, I fully understand that if those site designers who do open
another window had your experience and knowledge, then they would conform to
recognised and correct practise and not open the window.

Regards to you all - Keith

> open(page, "CtrlWindow",
> "toolbar=yes,menubar=yes,location=yes,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes");

I looked at the code again.

I said _fullscreen_ not _default_size_.

Opening new windows at all has its problems, but that wasn't the issue I
raised. Obviously opening a new window of the default size will only
exhibit the stupidity shown in the initial example if the user sets their
browser window to a unusable dimension.

>> <snip> Evil JS </snip>

> There is nothing really evil about this javascript function, except...

It can be argued that opening new windows is always wrong, and the code
example used href="javascript:" rather then anything that could gracefully
degrade (and that is even easier to argue as evil).

Joe Average also uses proxomitron and other anti-popups, you know.
Here's the kind of software what Joe Average was using back a few years ago:
http://www.4degreez.com/popupsmustdie/viewvote.htm

Not true. This is simply not defendable. The "slightest" word in your
statement is simply NOT true and extremely questionable.
90% of all sites using popup windows are BADLY coded and BADLY designed.
Above 80% of users of popup killers have huge difficulties understanding
what are popups, requested popups, unrequested popupss, popups created
via target attribute, popunder, and settings involved with popup
suppression.

Why talk about other designers? What about you?

Well, then maybe you should continue this discussion with others from
Microsoft and usability domains who have studied Joe Average behaviors.
Here's what they published in broad daylight:

1) "Research shows that most users don't like to run more than one
application at a time. In fact, many users are confused by multiple
applications."
Windows User Experience team,
Microsoft Windows User Experience Frequently Asked Questions: Why is the
taskbar at the bottom of the screen?,
March 2001

2) "Using pop-up browser windows to display advertising on the Web has
become so commonplace that there is now software that prevents these
windows from opening. This software can have the unwanted side effect of
preventing legitimate Web pages from being displayed, sometimes
suppressing an entire digital media presentation."
Kevin Larkin, Jim Travis, Microsoft New Media Platforms Division,
Using the Windows Media Player 9 Series HTMLView Feature: Advantages of
Using HTMLView,
January 2003

3) "The biggest fault with pop-ups is that it takes the focus away from
the main browser window, and this can be disconcerting. It presents
general usability issues aside from accessibility. How often have you
seen someone launch a pop-up and then inadvertently click back on the
launcher window and thinking that nothing's happened, click the link
again with nothing happening? Of course the window has opened but is now
under the launcher window, and only moving down to the task-bar and
selecting the window from there will solve this."
Ian Lloyd, Accessify.com, November 20th 2002

4) "(...) spawning second browser windows can completely throw users off
track because it removes the one thing they are sure how to use: the
'Back' button.(...) In another recent study, six out of 17 users had
difficulty with multiple windows, and three of them required assistance
to get back to the first window and continue the task."
Carolyn Snyder (IBM), Seven tricks that Web users don't know: 7. Second
browser windows, June 2001

5) "Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if
they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill
up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be
confused by a grayed out Back button."
Jakob Nielsen, The Top Ten New Mistakes of Web Design: 2. Opening New
Browser Windows, May 30, 1999

I absolutely agree with the href="javascript:" part: it's always wrong
IMO and I've said so at least 20 times in newsgroups in the last 2 years.

Opening new window can be a defendable, responsible and respectable
website decision when
- it meets the needs and requirements of the website
- it does not corner, trap the user: the user can right-click the link
and choose, say, to open the referenced document in a new tab or in the
same page. In other words, opening a new window is just the nr 1 option
available, the main choice offered to the user, not the only one.
- the design cares about the user's clear awareness and willingness to
open a new window in an explicit manner. So far, Sun Microsystem, IBM,
Microsoft and others have created image icons whose sole purpose is to
notify users in advance that clicking a link will open a new window.
That is the direct consequence of some of J. Nielsen's researches and
studies.
- the opening new window code is well done, well conceived, well
designed and will work accordingly for many browsers. Unfortunately
here, you can safely say that 90% of webpages based on requested popups
are BADLY, WRONGLY coded
- the design considers what user setting can do. Now, this is the
toughest part as Mozilla-based browsers user setting can neutralize the
target attribute for opening new window and neutralize the focus() method.

The issue was about fullscreen and the initial argument provided was a
picture. Fullscreen window and maximized window are different but they
are still unjustified, uncalled most of the time and definitively rude
if the user is not fully aware and wittingly "involved" in the process
in the first place.

In this thread, not everyone provided solid explanatory reasons against
what then became the issue: opening a new window.

Regarding the fullscreen issue (or maximized or pre-defined window
sizes), here are arguments from the users themselves:

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161903

I personally answered so many questions, problems about popups, popup
suppression from users themselves in netscape.netscape7.windows
newsgroup (and other mozilla newsgroup) since the release of Netscape
6.1 and Mozilla 0.9 that I decided to create a page just to explain the
issues involved. So, your Joe Average perception is in reality totally,
completely and absolutely wrong as far as my personal experience is
involved. Joe Average has often problems, difficulties, frustrations
with new windows, popup suppression softwares, etc.. Flash-based
animations, new window created by form submission, <img
onload="window.open(...);"> tricks, etc etc ect.. All of this just
oppress the user, makes him powerless at understanding, mastering all
these new window tricks. He gets confused and wished this whole
headache-new-windows would disappear and be tamed. I assure you that
your "Joe Average" argument is totally wrong.

You can try this page, even with MSIE or Opera browsers

Popup windows and Netscape 7 (interactive demos)
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Popup/PopupAndNetscape7.html

Even a large majority of javascript copy-N-paste sites offer badly
coded, badly designed, wrongly coded popup generators scripts, popup
maker scripts. I've said before in other threads and demonstrated that.

In the abstract, no one can make his mind about correct and sound
practise of opening new window: you need to provide an url, relevant
chunks of code, something.