Petition for partial reconsideration Filed!!!

______________________________________________________________

You all might be interested in the following:

Most of the ham community assumed that lower CW requirements
would be
accompanied by a higher technical level on the written
exam. But BOTH CW
AND WRITTEN will be lower skill -- for ALL license classes.

A Petition For Reconsideration of the FCC's Restructuring
has been filed by
Wormser, Adsit, and Dinelli. You can read it on
http://www.qsl.net/n5lf

Please e-mail or write the FCC in SUPPORT of the petition by
February 16,
2000.

You can comment using your Web browser or by e-mail at:
http://www.fcc.gov/e-file/ecfs.html
Refer to WT Docket 98-143 (Amateur Radio Restructuring) and
to the Wormser,
Adsit, and Dinelli Petition. The Report & Order is called
FCC 99-412.

You can mail your comments to:
Magalie Roman Salas, Secretary
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554
Refer to WT Docket 98-143 (Amateur Radio Restructuring) and
to the Wormser,
Adsit, and Dinelli Petition. The Report & Order is called
FCC 99-412. Send
7 copies.

Even though the FCC may not reconsider their decision to
"dumb down" the
written and telegraphy exams, the petition lays the
groundwork for new
initiatives in the future that could correct the situation.

Read the petition, and the original Report & Order. SUpport
the parts of
the Petition that you can, and add any additional issues
that we missed, or
variations that you are comfortable with. Let the FCC know
what you think.

(This e-mail message will not be relevant after February 16,
2000. Please
do not forward after that date.)

73 ES BCNU,

Alan N5LF
http://www.qsl.net/n5lf

Well, I sounds like a Good Idea, let general be 5wpm and extra 20wpm
and make the question test bigger. One thing I would add is to NOT
make the question pool available to the public. If you want to pass
the test then study for it, do not memorize the question pool.
Publishing the question pool is like giving the answers to test
questions to students before the finals for a collage course.

Rick KC2ESD

Dick,

I am curious as to how the written tests will be made easier. I have heard
that the W5YI VEC, or at least Fred, has made some statements that the
written should not matter much, at least up through the General class test
but could W5YI VEC make up easier written tests than say the ARRL VEC? If
so, this would seem to encourage VEC shopping when looking to take the
test. Just judging from the questions I see on the ham test websites, it
would be easy to formulate a test with "easy" questions from all sub
elements that make up the testing. Is this the concern?

Another thought that comes to mind is since there will not be any Advanced
testing with its arguably tougher test (some on this newsgroup have said
that it is the toughest written test of them all) is it possible that the
material included in the Advanced testing will not be proportionally
included in the General and Extra written? The Extra Goes to 50 questions,
but I assumed that the ten extra questions will come out of the existing
Extra question pool. I did not read into the R&O any mandate for less
complex written testing.

73
George
W3GEO

The way I understand it there is a committee of all VECs which agrees
to the questions which are then submitted to the FCC for review and
are either accepted or rejected. Fuzzy back room stuff. I think all
VECs work out of the same question pool. Somebody correct me.
>
Brian Kely w3rv

Leave the code speed alone for Ham Licensing and give certain calls to
those who have 13wpm or more. Being an "Extra" should mean that you
studied your damn book and passed the written elements, not that you
know morse code at 13 or 20 wpm. I do agree that the best way to make
people study is to keep the question pools confidential. For christ
sakes they dont give you a test with the correct answers on it in
school to study from do they? Sheeesh!!!

Cheating is wrong, whether it is endorsed by the federals or not, and
reading the answers to a test before it is administered is cheating, pure
and simple.

As to the code--well I'm behind it. It is the only fraternal commonality
shared by *all* amateurs world-wide and should be retained for that reason
alone.

As to all those belly-aching "electrical engineers who would be hams without
the code test", TOO BAD. We suffer enough as a hobby because we are already
filled with too many introverted geeks who scare prospects away. We need
more normal people in our ranks if we ever hope to survive as a hobby.
Morse Code gives non-nerds a skill that does not depend on IQ for mastery.
(I accept that the current exams don't, either, but that's a different
thread.)

If you really want to improve ham radio, we should recruit more personable,
more interesting people so we can all talk about something more compelling
that "your five nine is outer Suburbia! Fine business and good luck,
Whiskey One Lock Jaw..."

Regards,

Joe Ames W3JY
Amateur Extra Since 1979

Fred Stuart <fstu...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m9qg4.7925$Wu6.1...@newsr1.maine.rr.com...

Have fun living back there in the '80s.
--
73, Cecil, W6RCA http://www.mindspring.com/~w6rca

1) Fraternal? Uh, didn't women win the right to vote yet?
2) I am a ham and I do NOT share your views on CW. That blows a hole in
your "commonality shared by *all* amateurs world-wide..."

Let's not leave out the extroverted, chest-thumping morons...

I can't even believe I just read that in the year 2000.

What about the possible dozens you may have just chased away by being so
critical of "unnormal" folks?

It always cracks me up when we profess that ham radio is one of those
hobbies for "everyone!" "There's something for everyone to do, you just
have to find your niche and have fun with it." Then, we criticize and
yak and complain and gripe and beller about someone doing their
thing.....

Kim W5TIT
A ham radio operator, period.

I enjoyed the 80s a lot, thank you very much. I really enjoyed myself as an
undergraduate and as a fraternity boy at a major research university that
shall go nameless... gotta love keg parties, my friend!

Of course, the 90s were pretty good, too, except for a come-back of
bell-bottoms, LSD, heroin, marijuana, multiple school shootings, church
burnings, terrorism, AIDS, Rodney King Riots, HRH Bill Clinton and his
shenanigans--and of course, rampant political correctness. You know,
orthodoxy enforced by those who believe there should never be dissent from
the party line--and endorsed by the Sheople who go along with whatever their
told.

Should I be saying, "I love Big Brother"? Or just

"With subservient regards to the will of the FCC"?

W6RCecilA <Cecil....@IEEE.org> wrote in message
news:388278CA...@IEEE.org...

Oh, man...next he'll be telling us he's some kind of war hero who, of
course, can't produce any evidence to that affect because of his deep
seated deep dark secrets...ah, well, you all know the type...*YAWN*

Kim W5TIT

undergraduate and as a fraternity boy in Happy Valley... Gotta love keg
parties, my friend!

Of course, the 90s were pretty darned good for me, too. A few more years
like these and I'll retire at 45.

As much as I enjoy your rapier wit and those excellent, humorous insults, I
am not a war hero. Thank God for those that are, though.

I am, however, in need of sleep so I can play over-paid yuppie tomorrow,
earning the tax dollars that support the masses you love so well. So, until
next weekend, this is W3JY QRT. See you later, funny grrl.

Regards,

aaa W5TIT, Kim Walker <kw5...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8AF634CC000B8282.086C93FA...@lp.airnews.net...

You certainly have things logically upside down. The ARS
is being deregulated for the purpose of lowering governmental
expenses. That is the opposite of "Big Brother". Killing the
13/20wpm Morse code requirement is more like a step in the
direction of a free market, in the opposite direction of Big
Brotherism. It is a decrease of control, not an increase of
control.

Governmental people who reveal deep dark secrets then have to kill you. :-)

: Well, I sounds like a Good Idea, let general be 5wpm and extra 20wpm

Yep, and when a WRC votes S25.5 away you will lose ALL code tests. With
only a 5 WPM test, you might see it stand.

: and make the question test bigger. One thing I would add is to NOT

One thing that could be done right away is to just change the paramaters
to the math questions and people will HAVE to know how to calculate the
answers.

; If you want to pass

Anyone that can memorize 400 to 500 questions and answers can "memorize"
the correct way to do the math. And how DO you "learn" what the band
edges are, the height of the various D thru F2 layers, how many dB down
spurious signals should be? Do you know of a way to "learn" where you
don't -start off- by trying to "memorize" the answer?

: Publishing the question pool is like giving the answers to test

Some colleges DO that! Sometimes the tests are open book. Sooooooo?
Besides one can buy questions and answer "help" books for most all college
courses/tests. Not sure if a "collage course" would be included in that
though. Sounds like a "skill" test to me ;-)

: Rick KC2ESD
--
Jim Rosenthal, WA4STJ

:For christ

Why NO, of course NOT! YOU HAVE TO BUY YOUR "STUDY QUIDE(s)" FROM THE BOOK
STORE WHEN YOU PURCHASE YOUR COURSE BOOKS!!! :)
--
Jim Rosenthal, WA4STJ

> Dick,
>

I think the concern is that FCC has just handed all of the
serious parts of testing to the Volunteer Exam Coordinators.
They, in the form of the VEC Question Pool Committee, will
have fully free rein to decide for all of ham radio in the
USA, the totallity of what the test content will be, how
much of which topic will be covered and in what detail and
quantity. It's curious why the FCC even bothered to decide
how many questions each element will contain when they
express no interest in what subjects hams are being tested
for, nor in what propotions.

The R&O left it entirely up to the QPC to determine test
content. One would assume logicaly that since there will be
no Advanced test, and the General will still be the same,
that all the Advanced material will migrate into the Extra
exam. Not necessarily so, since all of it will be determined
by the Question Pool Committee, four individuals who will be
accountable to no one. They clearly are free to do it
however they wish.

The Petition for Reconsideration appears to address this as
*the FCC avoiding it's legal responsibility to oversee all
Federal radio licensing*, and states the belief that *such
delegation to unaccountable individuals without the required
oversight is not in accordance with law*.

Almost NOTHING regarding testing was mandated other than
the number of written questions that each element shall
contain and a single 5wpm code test. One wonders why this
was mandated when FCC has no further interest in written
testing, beyond stating that it considers the ARS as a
"technical" service. It is what is *allowed*, not mandated,
that is the problem.

Dick W0EX

I've never been to VE session in my life and I never will. I took all
my tests in front of an FCC examiner at an FCC field office. When
there were no such things as question pools, VECs, VEs or CSCEs and
you copied 20wpm solid or forget even taking the writtens until next
month. And the writtens included a requirement to hand-sketch several
circuit diagrams and do some algebra. So cut yer crap, count yer
blessings and go back to the question and get me up to date if you
have all the answers.
>
Brian Kelly w3rv

: Cheating is wrong, whether it is endorsed by the federals or not, and

How is it "cheating" if that is the way the government rules REQUIRE the
tests to be given and material presented for study? Please look up
"cheating".

: As to the code--well I'm behind it. It is the only fraternal commonality

Not true. A larger proportion of the worlds people (and hams) SPEAK when
they want to communicate. Do you know the Tibetin code abreviation for,
"there is a YAK sitting in my soup!" :)

: As to all those belly-aching "electrical engineers who would be hams without
: the code test", TOO BAD. We suffer enough as a hobby because we are already

If they are "would be hams", how is it possible for [you] to be suffering
from them (as hams)? And if they were introverted they probably wouldn't
be on the air talking to you anyway.

: We need

Please define "normal people". Only you and I are normal - and even you
seem to be a little "strange" :)

: Morse Code gives non-nerds a skill that does not depend on IQ for mastery.

See, People who "really" know Morse code *ARE* a little less IQ'd than
other people ;-)))

: (I accept that the current exams don't, either, but that's a different
: thread.)

Really? If the current exams don't select people who know a little more
than "normal people", then why aren't there even MORE Techs.

: If you really want to improve ham radio, we should recruit more personable,

Just what we need, a personality Element in the amateur tests.
Sample question "Would you rather;
a. smile at your VE test person
b. spit at your VE test person
c. drink a beer with your VE test person
d. BE a VE test person"

: more interesting people so we can all talk about something more compelling

All you have to do is find another ham on the air that wants to talk
about "interesting" things. Go for it!

: Regards, Joe Ames W3JY
: Amateur Extra Since 1979

Uuuuuuuuooooooooooo, I'm impressed!

Joe, don't get so up tight. Maybe some of the new hams will want to talk
about something that YOU are interested in. (Like non-ham subjects?)
--
Jim Rosenthal, WA4STJ

>Cecil--
>
>I

The same for Rock Music. In the 70s and 80s rock was great but in
the 90s it took a sour turn to grunge and all I can say about 90s Rock
is it SUCKS!!!

Rick KC2ESD

wrong guy. You're thinking of the NG's resident dyslexic Mark Morgan.
The "man" who is not himself because an abusive wife and kids. Who was
drafted 30 years after the draft ended and is permanently conscripted
into the Chemical Corps as an officer with ZERO knowledge of the chemical
industry (go figure).

Ask him for his real name (Mark ain't it), he's in hiding so he doesn't
have to pay child support

--
Hanging the 10 commandments in schools to
improve the morality of the students will have
the same effect Giddeon Bibles do in improving
the morality of the guests in the hotel room.

Protect the ARS into the 21st Century
Join the ARRL

I don't see where he claimed to be a Veitnam Vet, gone to Woodstock, or said there
were two shooters in Dallas.

What part of "next" do you not understand?
What part of "I've heard claims just like that before" do you not understand?

Good points. I hoped to spark a discussion more along these lines. But
still, if you're a ham, you at least know the basics of Morse Code. No one
expects a radio talk-jock to tap out Morse code during his banter. It is
indelibly identified with ham radio and I see that as a good thing, whatever
its technical merits. It is the same thing as the BMW "kidney bean grille"
or the Mont Blanc "snow cap" or the Star and Stripes: it is instantly
recognizable as "ham radio".

By the way, when I say "normal", you know what I mean--basic people who have
money, warm bodies, enthusiasm and the sheer numbers to keep our hobby from
being dismissed as an irrelevant characature.

Do you recall the Dilbert cartoon a few years ago? He was walking with a
female after being promoted to a management slot. She was obviously
disappointed that he was losing his nerdiness, so he asked her if getting
his ham radio license would restore her faith in him. It would. Trust
me--that image does more damage to the hobby than you are prepared to admit.
It isn't Morse code, it's being marginalized as weirdoes and geeks.

Regards,

Joe Ames

James Rosenthal <z005...@bc.seflin.org> wrote in message
news:85ua2o$f...@nntp.seflin.org...

Couldn't that be considered a "personal opinion" and are others' personal
opinions not valid?

There's also a lot to be said for every other variation of ham radio
enthusiast's idea of what they would like to see considered as their definition
of "fraternal commonality." I would personally like the thought that ham radio
is considered yet another "fraternal" organization to just plain go away. It
is not, any more. It is a community of folks with the same hobby.

Watch out for some personal email message pertaining to puerile and personal
comments on this one! : P

> :

Ditto. Think I said this, too. But that you're a man may make a difference to
Joe Ames W3JY. Don't know, we'll see.

> > :

> >

For all of that, Kim, the man makes a point. When was the last time you
heard anything significant let alone interesting on a repeater? Many
years ago I was part of a collection of reprobates that built a machine
to actually talk on. When a local doc and the Federal venereal disease
control officer got clinical, when a couple of members going thru
divorces shared experiences and opinions, when we talked about ANYTHING
outside the ordinary, when Roland W0RL would give his phonetics as Romeo
(like the car) Lima (like the bean), the local little old ladies of all
ages and sexes would go nuts. They listened, however. We were not by any
means a fraternity - by definition exclusionary - more a mob. We
attracted people who did not base their identity on Amateur Radio; there
lies the key -- get people who have a life outside of AR.

Slowly you are perhaps beginning to see why in Immigration I will admit
anyone who can cook and in Amateur Radio anyone who already has a life.
The terminally useless and those bent on deconstruction we can live
without but I am quite willing to take the risk.

Dick McCollum N0BK

: Good points. I hoped to spark a discussion more along these lines. But

Not always true. Techs do NOT have to know ANY code. And their numbers
are now >26% of the ARS and growing all the time. Perhaps the new rules
will encourage more of them to learn code at 5 WPM (to start with).

: No one

Joe, the average person knows practically NOTHING about ham radio except
some mention of the "those CB type guys" after emergencies on TV. Or the
"CB" guy with the big anenna down the street.

: whatever

I don't think so. If anything, when the average person thinks of code,
they think of the 1880s telegrapher with the green eye shade and sleave
garters at the steam railroad station. NOT AMATEUR RADIO.

: By the way, when I say "normal", you know what I mean--basic people who have

Politically correct time; you mean that poor people can't become hams? ;-))

"Sheer numbers"?? CB has >40 MILLION users. I'd much rather be a geeky ham.

: Do you recall the Dilbert cartoon a few years ago? He was walking with a

: his ham radio license would restore her faith in him. It would. Trust

: It isn't Morse code, it's being marginalized as weirdoes and geeks.

I'd say it's the elitism and the "I'm superior" that seems to go along
with higher speed Morse finger wiggling that is doing MORE damage. The
"geeks" are the ones that have carried this hobby for many-many decades
so the people who AREN'T geeks could enjoy the hobby at the same time.

Just read 99-412 for the FCCs affirmation that ham radio *IS* a technical
hobby, not a calmed down version of CB or FRS etc. And it takes "geeks"
to be technical.

: Regards, Joe Ames
--
73, Jim Rosenthal, WA4STJ

I think it is the other way around. The non-geeks support the hobby, so that
the geeks have a hobby to come back to when they're done experimenting. The
appliance ops, who far outnumber the geeks, buy the rigs that support the
advertisers in QST which supports the ARRL. They also (in greater
numbers)support ARRL directly by being members. ARRL supports ham radio to
the public through public relations programs and to the FCC. Also the
appliance ops are in the majority of public service events, and are the ones
who give the most support to emergency services. We may pretend we are a
technical service, but the truth is that most hams are minimally technical,
and just enjoy using their store bought radios and towers. That they provide
public relations through ARRL, and directly, is what really saves our
hobby's behind, not the geeks...

Richard McCollum <rmc...@radiks.net> wrote in article
<388351C8...@radiks.net>...

Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, the repeaters are not quiet that often. We
have a repeater in Garland that hosts a whole variety of topics mainly dealing
with family issues and their club activities; we have a repeater in Richardson
very active with a DX group; we have a repeater in Waxahachie where you'll find
topics ranging from road conditions to local politics; repeater in Dallas that
is mainly one to get on and purely "veg" out and talk about anything BUT
anything serious; another repeater in Dallas where topics can anywhere from
extremely technical to extremely lame; and the list goes on. Significant? I
think so, if by significant you mean high quality conversations that will teach
new things or at least give me something to think about. Ham related? There
are a number of them where conversations are pretty much ham related. And, I
am speaking of 2M, I hardly if ever listen on 440.

HF? I don't listen that much. Why? I usually find the same types of
conversation going on there, and 2M is a lot easier for me to work. I like HF
contests and DX chasing, and if I want to chat I can get on a local repeater.
What doesn't seem to be accepted in this area that frustrates is good hearty
debate over ham issues. While we have very active repeaters with each having
its own "type" of people that hang out, there is also that "cluster" mentality
that desires not to disturb the nest. This has led to a lot of doldrum in the
whole concept of ARRL politics; ho-hum participation in anything to do with the
politics of the ARRL and, of course, that means those ARRL are quite happy
because their status quo can continue on.

"Interest" is a relative term. I even like evesdropping on couples who end up
in quick arguments before they put themselves in "check" and realize they've
been arguing with an audience of who-knows-how-many.

You should be around when the topics of the CFA antenna get started...right now
those are fighting words, because discussions of that type predominated the
most used machine in the area from about Halloween to just about Christmas! : )
We tech-talked ourselves out and we tech-listened others to sleep!

Anyway, I babbled, but hopefully you get my input.

73 Kim W5TIT

James Rosenthal <z005...@bc.seflin.org> wrote in article
<85vjme$8...@nntp.seflin.org>...

He was really hoping you would take this better than I did. Did you get a
private email also? :)

Kim W5TIT

It happens to be trendy these days to be a geek. Technology demands it. But,
DITTO on your "elitist" concept....I feel exactly the same way.

Kim W5TIT

I'm afraid you're right. As Cecil the Great is so fond of
saying, "Everything technical in ham radio is trivial".
After April 15 that will be true in spades.

Bt the way I can find no Joseph Ames in the QRZ 1993 callbook on the QRZ
site or in the QRZ winter 1999 CD callbook. You just sorta showed up one
winter day an Extra with a Vanity call, but you claim to been an Extra
since 1979 did you die and get reincarnated? Interesting !!!!!!!!!!! Was it
a relatives call?
"Spirit of 76" <nosp...@nsa.gov> wrote in message
news:Oy0cE2IY$GA.110@cpmsnbbsa03...

> filled with too many introverted geeks who scare prospects away. We need

> Fred Stuart <fstu...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:m9qg4.7925$Wu6.1...@newsr1.maine.rr.com...

geek ( g鄂) n. Slang 1. An odd or ridiculous person. 2. A carnival performer
whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live
chicken. [Perhaps alteration of dialectal geck fool from Low German gek from
Middle Low German] geek 憘 adj.

Maybe we should try another word rather than "geek", although the definition
does seem to fit some in the newsgroup... :-)

Cortland
(ka...@saber.net)

Whoa, I'd love to be caught up on this...you mean "Mr. Normal" is
not?????????? :-p

Kim W5TIT

I'll put that PR problem right in the hands of the good old ARRL
who COULD have done something besides making
"documentaries" that are shown only in ham club meetings.

[watch this space for angry replies by pro-League zealots... :-) ]

When was amateur radio ever dramatized as a major plot
point on TV? Answer: A TV-movie adaptation of "The
French Atlantic Affair" about the hijacking of an ocean
liner...years and years ago.

The "LAPD-Life On The Beat" syndicated series is
produced by "QRZ Media" but the US public has NO
idea what the 'QRZ' means. :-)

:-) But...watch this space again for the outcry by zealots.

"Normal" in the writer's definition is Someone Just Like Him.

A few years ago the industry trade publications had the number of
CB radios sold as 40 million...but the number of CB users worldwide
is probably not more than 5 or 10 million. Still quite a few more than
all the radio amateurs in the world.

The number of cellular telephone subscribers is already over 200
million and industry estimates put the number of subscribers as
about 500 million worldwide by 2005. A cellular telephone is a
two-way radio for a specialized purpose. Right now, worldwide,
for every radio amateur there are at least 100 cellular telephone
subscribers. :-)

By self-definition (just ask them), the morsemen and Supporters
Of The True Faith (of the 1930s) are the "normal" ones, the ones
by whom everyone else is judged in compitancy. :-)

All those Supporters have caused a rash among the radio-interested
for a long time. The FCC finally listened to someone besides the
ARRL and supplied a proper medication.

I don't think the Supporters want to read such things. To them it
chafes, isn't "real" and therefore isn't The True Faith.

LA

Did you walk barefoot through the snow uphill both ways to do that?

Zzzzz. ALL the radio licenses of the old, bygone days were like
that, grandpa, even the commercial licenses. BFD.

Do you or do you not want a continuation of the status quo in
amateur radio licensing? Cut yer crap and count yer blessings
that the inventive license system gave you bragging rights
about your license class...so that you could jump in here and
act all tough and old-timerish...or as a Defender of The True
Faith. [which is it?]

LA

Passed at age 15? You were born 31 Jul 64.

The "Feds" granted you your extra license, not the ARS or ARRL.
The whole COLEM-VEC radio operator testing process AND the
question-answer pools have been around for years. If you want
to change it, go write/petition/sue the FCC.

Yes, the "code is behind you." :-) You will never ever have to take
any morse code exam for an amateur radio license in your lifetime
if you renew within time. YOU did it, therefore everyone else has to
also? Not a good regulatory reason.

Oh, yes, over a quarter of all US amateur radio licensees never
had to take a code test. Are they "real" or not?

Okay, so you want to BAN any electrical/electronic engineers from
ever being granted an amateur radio license? Tsk, tsk, that's about
as exclusionary and elite as one can get...from someone who got
his extra at 15.

Nobody, NO ONE in this newsgroup who was a radio professional
"demanded" any "free" radio license. NO ONE...except some BS
from PCTAs who implied/assumed that radio pros "wanted that."

Jaysuss! What an "old-timer" statement from someone who is
all of 35 years old. Get a LIFE, boy, quit trying to say you are
some kind of "old-timer" by repeating PC-that-was of the 1930s.

Define "normal," twit. You mean "normal" as in Defenders of The
Only True Way Of Hamdom...of the 1930s?

[that is waayyyyy too open for labelling you as a LUDDITE so I
truncate it]

Do you mean that MORONS can earn a extra class license by
doing greater than 20 WPM morse? You want MORONS to
make up the "expertise" of US amateur radio?

Sorry, boy, REAL morsemen beep...they don't talk. :-)

"...more personable, more interesting people..." Gosh, I can see it
now, GQ magazine instead of CQ. On NBC-TV there would be
the Yesterday show featuring great events in morsemanship and
health tips for geriatric morsemen. There could be a talk show
(with morse subtitles for the talking disadvantaged) with a pop
psychologist plugging his new book "I'm Okay, You're 599."
No end of possibilities with "more personable, more
interesting people" in a hobby...so that each could get their
15 minute Warhol period to show their self-proclaimed
superiority over "normals."

LA

Please read what I wrote. In the begining there were NO "appliance ops".
There were NO shortwave TRANSMITTERS to buy. "160 Meters and Up"
frequencies were considerd "useless" so "amateurs" were stuck up there so
they wouldn't bother anyone.

There were hardly any tubes that would WORK on shortwave frequencies. The
"Geeks" of -that- time were the ONLY ones that could get the stuff to work
at all!!! QST didn't exist, the ARRL didn't exist (most likely YOU didn't
exist ;) I sure didn't.

QST/ARRL came into existance during the first decade. And those first ops
had to BUILD THEIR OWN RIGS!! The ARRL itself came into existance because
Hiram wanted to buy some components to BUILD a radio.

Along the way, radio manufactuers started building "Experimenters" radios
and the well heeled could then buy a rig (the non-geeks started comming
into the hobby).

I would guess up until after the depression that most hams built their own
rigs. And that certainly covers my "many-many decades" statement. The ones
that -didn't- build their own became your appliance operators (a long-long
time ago).

> They also (in greater numbers) support ARRL directly by being members.

Speak for yourself ;) There's still lots of geeks playing with antennas,
radios etc etc.

You are talking about NOW. If what I stated wasn't true THEN, how -did- we
get -to- where we are *NOW* ? The geeks came FIRST!

See if this doesn't make more sense now;

--
Jim Rosenthal, WA4STJ

Fred Stuart <fstu...@maine.rr.com> wrote in article
<NwOg4.8023$Wu6.1...@newsr1.maine.rr.com>...

All kidding aside...I broached the subject of prejudism with "Mr. Normal" in a
post here on the group. He promptly sent me a message telling me that I was
everything wrong with ham radio and, when I could communicate more than puerile
statements and concepts, blah, blah, blah, he would be happy to entertain me
(like I'd need his entertainment). BUT, back to what I was going to say here:
I *never* noticed the email address....LOL.....did someone insert that?

Kim W5TIT

Just say something about his prejudice....he'll get real personal with
ya then...LOL

(*insert toungue in cheek*):
Oh Len, c'mon you KNOW that's not true. Hams can handle their own PR
and do, every time they park there car in a hidden area so that no one
will "steal" from it; every time they are out working public service so
our public will know and learn about ham radio through the local ham
radio spokesperson who is also there; every time clubs send those nice
little invitations to scouting and school organizations inviting kids to
come to their meetings to learn about ham radio; you know...all those
and other times!!

Kim W5TIT

>and do, every time ....(clip).... clubs send those nice little invitations

Kim, you need to get out more.

Our club, TCFMC (W0EF), sponsors and financially supports a
number of projects, including a scout Explorer Post (with it's own call,
K0BSA), scholarship funds, and a MF/HF/VHF/UHF club station prominently
located at the city Public Safety (fire and police) building. We have
commited to the city that the station is manned 24x7 during any weather
or other civil emergency. During annual "Public Safety Awareness Day"
the station is open to the public display and demonstration. It is a
hub station for the coordination of medical aid facilities and sag wagons
during the Minneapolis Marathon. I could go on and on, but I think you're
getting the picture.

Take your tongue out of your cheek, and get out there and do some of
the same.

73, Hans, K0HB

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My tongue was in my cheek mostly because local activities around here, EXCEPT a
couple of shining examples of clubs, are pretty minimal.

I think it's great that your organization gets out and does what it does. Tell
me, is there much infighting and political bickering, or do you folks seem to
be able to rise above that? It seems rampant around here to me...state of
inaction.

Kim W5TIT

K0...@TCFMC.ORG wrote in article <8624p9$t2g$1...@news.netmar.com>...

> or do you folks seem to be able to rise above that....

The club has about 250 members, pretty evenly spread across all
classes of license, and with the obvious broad range of interests
that comes with such a wide membership base. We've been fortunate
(because we sponsor a large hamfest each year) to be able to
afford to financially support many activities. We have three
repeaters (one on 2M and two on 70cm), a fully equipped KW HF
club station with packet and a good antenna farm.

Naturally not every member agrees with *EVERY* thing the club does,
but there isn't much "infighting" because we can engage in so many
different activities. (Something for most everyone) I think a lot
of cross-fertilization comes from that also. For example, each
fall the club HF station becomes a "University of Contesting"
during Sweepstakes weekend. During that weekend, several experienced
HF contesters act as control operators and mentors to newcomers to
get them on the air "under the wing" of an experienced contester.
During the Minneapolis Marathon, on the other hand, the emphasis is
VHF/UHF with upwards of 100 hams manning checkpoints, medical
stations, sag-wagons, and central dispatching, with non-HF hams
acting in many of the 'mentor' roles. Another interest group (I
call them the tornado nuts) works with the city and with Skywarn
people to man the club station during weather emergencies. From
this relationship we have a very nice secure home for our club
station in the Public Safety center, and access by any club member
at any time.

But we don't try to do EVERTHING -- for example, we are not into
license classes and test sessions, largely because another nearby
club, the St. Paul ARC, has historically had a very strong program
in that arena. There are also many other strong clubs in the area
with a more "singular" purpose, such as the TCDXA (DX club),
Minnesota Wireless Association (HF Contesting), Northern Lights
Radio Society (VHF/UHF weak signal work and contesting), etc., etc.
There is a lot of membership cross-over between all these successful
clubs, and I know some folks who are members of every one I've named.

In the real world I don't see the infighting and political bickering
you talk about. That seems mainly to be a function of the internet
newsgroups and reflectors.

And in the Dallas metroplex area of ham radio : (

But, your club's accomplishments sound great. This area is so embroiled with
RACES issues, former lawsuits that happened so long ago but no one wants to let
go, and the resulting crud that comes from it all, that ham radio pretty much
gets lost in the sauce around here. Garland ARC is a very active club, much
like yours, but I am told is still very cliquish(sp).

The really pitiful thing is that if anyone makes a move to try something new,
it is viewed as being contrary to the desires of "everyone" (translation=those
who have been allowed to say what goes and what does not), and near instantly
becomes so controversial that it's pretty much shut down. It's a very strange
situation...but it's there nevertheless.

Kim W5TIT

PS--I will look for and suggest a thread called something to the effect of
"politics in ham radio" or something like like that.

> In article <85rf0o$p73$0...@208.207.71.178>, Dick Carroll <di...@townsqr.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > A Petition For Reconsideration of the FCC's Restructuring
> > has been filed by Wormser, Adsit, and Dinelli. You can read it on
> > http://www.qsl.net/n5lf

And on the NCI web site at http://www.nocode.org under "Articles" ...
BUT NOT AT THE FCC BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE IT :-)

> >
> > Please e-mail or write the FCC in SUPPORT of the petition by
> > February 16,
> > 2000.

At least as of 5:00 pm today, Jan 18, 2000, when I had a very
cordial chat of about 1/2 hour with the Deputy Secretary of the
FCC, the "Wormser, Adsit, and Dinelli Petition"
HAD NOT BEEN FILED WITH THE FCC and my call was the
first they'd ever heard of it :-)

Despite the fact that the matter is not even before the Commission,
a few PCTAs have rushed to the clutter up the ECFS with "Comments"
in support of the (so far, non-existent) "Petition."

I find this QUITE humorous ... "the check is in the mail." :-)
Particularly
in light of the way ("Wormser, Adsit, and Dinelli") they apparently tried
to make it sound like a filing from a communications law firm ...

- - --
Carl R. Stevenson - wa6vse
<mailto:wa6vse@fast/net>
<http://www.users.fast.net/~wa6vse>
- - ------------------------------------------------------
NCI-1052
Director, No Code International
Fellow, The Radio Club of America
Senior Member, IEEE
Member, TAPR
Member, ARRL
- - ------------------------------------------------------
Join No Code International! Hams for the 21st Century.
Help assure the survival and prosperity of ham radio.
<http://www.nocode.org>
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Yeah? Bragging rights, huh? Well, if that's what it's called nowadays,
then that's when ham radio died.

Kim W5TIT

They'll do anything to get the eyes rolled back, CW Forever crowd going. It
doesn't take much.

> Dick - Somewhere along the line and I forget where I picked up the
> notion, there was mention of the fact that the QPC runs the questions
> past the FCC for blessing. I've been trying to find out how this QPC
> group operates in detail and nobody around here seems to actually
> know. Another tidbit I picked up is that any individual or entity
> which is a VEC has input to the QPC. I'm under the impression that
> there are something like seven VECs out there but only w5yi and the
> ARRL do the QPC work.
> >
> I'd sure like to see somebody who is on the inside of this operation
> shine some light on it.
> >
> If the FCC has downloaded the responsibility for generating the tests
> on us how do we out here in the trenches input that process? We're
> hams too, y'know?
> >
> Brian Kelly w3rv

Brian, I've received two ARRL-grams concerning the QPC and the release of
the QP sometime in early Feb. They named the individual and call of the
guy who is honchoing the recombinant QP deal. You don't have to be a
member to suscribe.

> In article <BB301A2DEBD84293.F0743AFF...@lp.airnews.net>,

That has been my experience here in the St Louis Metro East (Illinois). Everything
had been tried before and it didn't work.

> Kim:
>
> First, I hope I'm not replying to an "old" posting, or something like that!
>
> Next, you seem to have perfectly described the "main" club in my
> area! If the "majority" were to decide that 2 + 2 = 3, then, that's
> exactly the way they would insist it be! No argument -- and if you
> dare to disagree, you're the object of scorn, ridicule, QRM, and
> downright dirty tricks being played on you in order to discredit you!
> If you say something is this, "they" (the "Mafia" I call them) will
> automatically disagree, and will pass a resolution to ensure that
> everything is done the exact opposite way you would suggest!
>
> Well, enough of that. I'm sure you'll find this situation in ham radio
> "clubs" all over the world! I can't seem to get away from it. What
> else is new?
>
> 73 de Larry, K3LT

I feel your pain. Shut down their club. It sounds like it needs to be put out of
their misery.

> For reasons which totally escape me the situation you have in Dallas
> seems to be typical of hamdom in major metropolitan areas. I'm in
> suburban Philly and there just aren't any large "multifunctional"
> clubs.

The AKSARBEN club in Omaha was (probably still is) a superb multi-functional club.
The 10th district QSL Buro was in Omaha for many years as well. Omaha was kind of a
ham mecca. Very active, technical, social, lots of projects, and we would drive
miles and miles to get to the tiniest hamfest!

> I think the concern is that FCC has just handed all of the
>serious parts of testing to the Volunteer Exam Coordinators.
>They, in the form of the VEC Question Pool Committee, will
>have fully free rein to decide for all of ham radio in the
>USA, the totallity of what the test content will be, how
>much of which topic will be covered and in what detail and
>quantity. It's curious why the FCC even bothered to decide
>how many questions each element will contain when they
>express no interest in what subjects hams are being tested
>for, nor in what propotions.

clubs. I'm in the Frankford Radio Contest Club along with 152 other
actives but if it ain't 100% contesting or dxing fuhgeddit. This is
not a criticism, it's just that most of the members are really
focused. The club does maintain the outstanding and open packet dx
cluster.
>
RACES is very spotty, there's a little bit of Skywarn, etc. The clubs
all tend to be very local neighborhood operations which sponsor and
are centered one or another of the repeaters. The closest I've seen to
anything like Hans is talking about is the past Field Day when a
nocode pulled five of the local clubs together for a major go at it.
But considering this is the home of the nefarious Philadelphia Lawyers
I don't know of any ham-related lawsuits.
>
It's no different in NYC and Baltimore, I know those areas, too.
>
I think you'll find the syndrome is typical of all very large
metropolitan areas. Beats me howcum.
>
Brian Kelly w3rv

>becomes so controversial that it's pretty much shut down. It's a very

Kim:

73 de Larry, K3LT

Lawrence J. Roll, K3LT | FISTS nr. 2008; CC nr. 703
k3lt@ka3bdr.#cde.de.usa.noam | http://www.qrz.com/wrad/directory.cgi?K3LT
(302) 678-4841 | ARRL OBS - DE

Whatsa matter, Squiggy? WORRIED?????

It's on the ARRL website for ALL to read, ham or not.

[and the honcho is NOT Fred Maia, heh heh heh heh]

LA

[Kelly didn't get is FIRST...tsk, tsk :-) ]

Bragging rights were codified in law with the so-called Incentive
License plan and firmly cemented with the Vanity Call sub-parts
of Part 97. US amateur radio didn't die then...but it CHANGED
to make the bragging LEGAL. :-)

Kelly is having a fun time trying to make fun of others less
skilled at morse code and a long time-in-grade as an
extra. That's a form of bragging, a form of showing
"superiority" over others...for the braggist's personal
pleasure.

Such bragging does irritate me, yes, but only to a minor
degree. What does and has bothered me for years, on and
off, is the continual insistence that such qualities ("ham
radio is all about CW on HF," and other Morse Myths)
somehow "define" amateur radio's "experts." What really
happened is that these old-timers managed to get into a
position of influence at the ARRL and had the ARRL
lobby the FCC to keep those "standards." They did that
for years but the newer access to the government via the
Internet, the dissemination of rule-change notices through
the Internet has bypassed the ARRL. US radio amateurs
no longer have to get information second-hand nor do they
have to go through (by the League's insistence) their
Section Director to "communicate their desires." Everyone,
ham or non-ham, can go DIRECT to the FCC. The
control of influence/lobbying of the FCC by the ARRL has
eroded. This disturbs many who Believe in Big Brother
to do the lobbying for them. Tough. The PUBLIC spoke
and the FCC listened. 99-412 happened.

I'm going for Amateur Extra "out of the box." Maybe I'll
make it, maybe not. The personal point is irrelevant.
What 99-412 really means is that there is no longer any
time-in-grade "seniority" nor any morsemanship that
indicates "superiority" of those bragextras. That applies
to EVERYONE who wants to try...without all the
artificialities of adhering to standards and practices of
the 1930s held in place by old men trying to relive
their youth by bravado and braggadoccio.

I'm another "old man," a retired professional in
radio-electronics engineering. Some of those tenured
old men of US ham radio don't seem to want anyone
with practical, professional and academic skill in radio
and electronics technology. They seem to fear those
who have industry-proven capabilities because that
doesn't fit into their standards...or because they are
insecure in not really knowing what goes on behind
the front-panel of their factory-built equipment. They
have difficulty in trying to put down those who know
practical theory so they try to make fun of them
instead...using their license paper as a "diploma"
and their HF CW tenure as some kind of "PhD" or
"professorship" of radio. Radio theory is somehow
imbued by spending hours working rare DX at high
rates, therefore some of those old men are "expert."
:-)

When 99-412 goes into real restructuring in April, it
won't change some of those tenured old men of US
ham radio. They will be bitter, boastful, and express
contempt of newcomers, some of which will have the
exact same government-granted rank/status/privilege
as all those old men who claimed they "worked" for
theirs. Human nature doesn't change. Neither have
they.

Len

No Mindless One, I didn't spend a year at sea or a year at a shore
station beeping for a living which was the only requirement for
upgrading to a First. Not that you would have a clue about beeping or
those licenses, of course.

. . . . There ya are Kim, 'nuff said, that oughta "explain" Lennie
No--Ham better than I ever could and why we have no time for him.

Kim, you're jumping to contusions again. None of my prior post had
anything to do with "bragging" I don't have anything to brag about,
Lenny-No-License-At-All twisted it as usual and I responded in kind,
that's all. He's nothing more than an annoyance to everybody. Don't
take everything you read in this NG litterally. Relax.
>
>Kim W5TIT

...not nearly as humorous as your telling us of the way it "happended"
or obvious glee you take in name-dropping in mentioning your phone
chat with your "old pal" at the FCC. At least you're funnier than
Cecil.

Dave 5H3US, K8MN

--
For 5H3US photos, go to:
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/ad1c/5H3US/

For info on K8MN go to:
http://www.geocities.com/k8mn_1999

For information on the U.S. Embassy in Tanzania, go to:
http://www.cats-net.com/amemb/main.htm

Not uncommon for almost any type of club. Such is the
reason why some groups will break away from an existing
club to form another. It goes on all the time.

Noting that Len stated "SOME of those tenured old men" (emphasis
mine), I must now ask: Why do you have no time for him? Because he has
the audacity to speak the truth?

73 DE KC2FNG

If things are as bad as you say, perhaps you should consider gathering
together a sizable group of fellow hams who feel the same way you do,
and starting another club.

73 DE KC2FNG

>As to the code--well I'm behind it. It is the only fraternal commonality
>shared by *all* amateurs world-wide and should be retained for that reason
>alone.

The facts do not support this assertion. In the United States alone,
there are over 200,000 licensed amateurs who are no-code Techs and
thus do *not* share that fraternal commonality. Canada also has
no-code licensees. There are a few countries where *none* of the hams
have to pass a code test at *any* speed. They don't share that
fraternal commonality either.

>As to all those belly-aching "electrical engineers who would be hams without
>the code test", TOO BAD.

Well, those electrical engineers can still take a written test and
become licensed hams with full amateur privileges on all bands above
50 MHz. You probably don't like that fact, TOO BAD. You don't make the
rules, the FCC does, and the FCC doesn't share your narrowminded view
of things any more.

>We suffer enough as a hobby because we are already
>filled with too many introverted geeks who scare prospects away.

Agreed...especially the code geeks.

>We need more normal people in our ranks if we ever hope to
>survive as a hobby. Morse Code gives non-nerds a skill that
>does not depend on IQ for mastery.

Normal people here on Earth communicate by talking, not by beeping.
I'm not sure how normal people on Mars communicate, but since Mars is
beyond FCC's jurisdiction, it hardly matters anyway. What matters is
perception. Yours is somewhat slanted. If you get out among the
"normal people" you claim we need in this hobby, you'll most likely
find that the ones perceived as "geeks" and "nerds" are the ones
communicating by beeping and blooping when "normal" people communicate
by talking. What are there, 100,000 licensed Extras in the U.S.?
50,000? There are a couple of *million* cell phone users. To them,
*you* are the geek. And they outnumber coded hams by a considerable
margin. On the scale of popular opinion, your argument is outweighed
to a considerable degree.

>If you really want to improve ham radio, we should recruit more personable,
>more interesting people so we can all talk about something more compelling
>that "your five nine is outer Suburbia! Fine business and good luck,
>Whiskey One Lock Jaw..."

And where do those people come from? You won't find them among the
ranks of those hundreds of people shopping at the local malls with
cell phones on their belts. To them, it's you who are the geek. And
attitudes like yours are the reason why they have no interest in this
hobby whatsoever.

You claim to want to bring more hams into the hobby, that doing so
will be good for the hobby...well, I agree with that, at least. But
then you want to limit the newcomers to *only* those who agree with
*your* view of the merits of developing telegraphy skills. Kid
yourself all you want, but that's not gonna happen. What you consider
normal, the majority people in our society considers eccentric, and
they are not going to jump through your code hoops in a rush to get on
the air so they can associate with beepers and bloopers. Instead,
they're going to vote with their feet like they've been doing for the
last few decades, while the hobby continues to decline, and then after
all the beepers and bloopers succumb to the effects of old age, they
will find some other use for the RF spectrum that puts that spectrum
to good use for more than just the handful of beepers who have used it
in the past. It's a numbers game, and you're badly outnumbered.

73 DE KC2FNG

Well said!! Baloop!

Kim W5TIT

Why NOT? If it was good for Jeffrey Herman to join the USCG
and get free experience in morsemanship, why didn't you do it?
Ol Jeffie is younger than you.

<snip>

"We." I love it when these old farts use the Royal "we" as
if they defined everything. :-)

Kelly doesn't want his little Morse Welfare Society disturbed.
With good reason...disturbance would decrease the rank,
status, and priveleges of the old farts...because newcomers
could get the SAME rank, status and privileges. It's the
new LAW. [ain't it a shame? :-) ]

To reiterate: