Steve's Power Toys

Here are a few of my toys I use in our off grid home.

Starting with the NiMH battery Charger, it holds 4 AA or AAA NiMH
batteries, and charges from 120vac or 12vdc native. About $20 from
Walmart, and came with 4 AA NiMH batteries.

Next is my Kill-A-Watt, a 120vac, 15amp, monitor for volts, amps, watts,
hz, watt hours, power factor, etc. indispensable in an off grid home for
determining how much power an item uses and for how long it runs. $30
from J&R Music World.

The last item in the picture is my new Power Center, $99 from BJ's
Wholesale. It contains a battery, a 400 watt inverter, jumper cables,
air compressor, flashlight, two 12vdc power receptacles, and two 120vac
receptacles. Great for portable, emergency power, or, as we are using
it, as a temporary UPS to keep the satellite box from losing sync and
the clock radio/stereo from losing programming during
inverter/generator/inverter switching. We will plug a 20 watt PV panel
into it shortly, and give some real life run time/load numbers.

See more at http://www.off-grid.net

Well you got the title right, Toys

1. battery charger - you advocate buying non-rechargeable so the
landfill has more trash? Might ungreen of a "solar consultant" if I may
say so.

2. Kill-A-Watt - A common tool used by real solar consultants to show
end users how much enrgy their equipment consumes.

3. Jump start pack - Nice jump starter, air compressor, and portable
ac/dc power pack. Handy thing to have around when a tire is flat, the
battery is dead, or I need to use my handheld drill outside the house.

"Toys" are useful, hence my reason for having them. You aren't, so I
don't. I hope some day you'll grow up to be a real solar consultant, not
just a net troll.

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

As per kill-a-watts, I bought a case of them a while ago direct from
P3, and sold some, but use, as Steve suggests, a good half-dozen or
more when we do a house power consumption audit for a client. They're
great for getting *actual* totals for power hogs, like entertainment
centers, because for some reason, clients tend to seriously
underestimate their useage (especially TV viewing ;-) as well as for
getting real time weighted numbers on fridges and freezers. Plug 'em
in, leave 'em for a week, go back and record it. Very handy little
"toy".

As per building a mobile power center, always a good idea. Inverters
fail. Fuses blow. Having a fall-back is always nice to keep the glycol
heating pumps running, or powering the satellite to call/email out.
Sometimes, just a little power is all you *really* need in a pinch,
until you get the rest of it sorted out.
With a solar panel on it, it resembles the system, actually, I have on
my workshop for light and minor tools. Too far to run cable from the
house, so I built a cheapie "stand-alone".
To each their own, though, I guess!

DJ

Where do your "re-chargeables" end up at the end of their life. I use
small regulated power supplies.

Must work really well. Maybe almost as well as my clamp meter.

Funny thing. My compressor (12V) works just fine. As does my maines
powered one. If I need a drill outside I can 1) plug it into the house
system(12V) 2) plug it into the car, truck or tractor electrical
systems. 3) Flat battery, just plug it into the system, no worries.

The thing is that YOU called them toys. This shows your mind set. You
bought them to play with and impress people.

I buy tools.

Do you pass constructive meaningful comment?

What is the URL for your website?

daviddillion at postmaster co uk

"George Ghio" <gh...@netconnect.com.au> wrote in message
news:ghio-7FB181.2...@news.chariot.net.au...
> In article <LhVCd.123215$Uf.8...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,

"Toys" is a good example.

His NiMH battery charger. $20 + batteries. He has 12V right there, said
so himself. For around $5 he could have a regulated power supply.

Kill-a-watt meter. Nice if you want to whip it out at parties so you can
say "Hey have a look at this, you won't believe what it will do.

But if you want to know how much the field on your 12 V alt is pulling
or what the inverter is pulling right now... Well.

Now DJ knows the value of tools and applies them.

And the power center, jeez I had all that stuff years ago. All as
discreet units. He bought it because he can't help himself, loves
gadgets. Does six things, none of them well. But he gets a buzz showing
off his toys.

So the title was a good choice

In article <LuoDd.107704$K7.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,

> Steve Spence <spe...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>> Still not learning, are you george?...

You can't measure power with a "clamp meter," George.

(Unless you measure resistors in amps, and so on :-)

Nick

The dividing line between a 400W inverter being a "toy", or being a
critical part of a custom home's "system", is apparently so fine that
one must be a "solar power consultant" to see it. :-)

Wayne

When a device like a Kill-a-Watt meter is needed (for appliances whose
load changes over time, such as clothes washers, dish washers,
computers, etc.), a clamp meter is a tedious and highly ineffective
substitute. Making such a substitution is pointless anyway when the
proper tool costs so little. Not to mention the embarrassment of
getting caught pretending to be a professional for not only doing
without such a basic tool, but scoffing at others for having one.

Wayne

Yes, which is why he bought a case of Kill-a-Watts, and makes
effective use of them. He disagreed with your whole "toy" line of
reasoning, so what was your point again?

Wayne

Not true Nick. Some clamp-on ammeters come with two leads as well as the
clamping ring. You clamp the ring around one line, and attach the two leads
across the line for a voltage reading. Twist the selector knob and voila!,
a scale that shows watts based on the current sensed in the clamp, and the
voltage applied across the leads.

Great if you have exposed wiring, but the Kill-A-Watt is much easier for
plug-in appliances and such. Also provides a lot more information (includes
timer, kwh, freq. and more...)

daestrom

Not oo often, but it happens. This wasn't one of those times.

That regulated power supply won't work real conveniently with my digital
camera, or my son's xmods.

Do you have a clue how useful this tool is? When a customer wants to
know how much a microwave draws, and how often they use it in a week,
what would you use? I bet you guess .....

I have a digital multimeter for that. This is for testing 120vac loads
over time, and the frequency setting is nice for tuning the governor on
the generator.

Having it all in one box is convenient for the uses I need it for.

Toys are still useful. I have a friend who is a contractor. refers to
his tools as his "toys". Nothing toylike about a $300 router, but it's
his "toy".

Does you clamp meter include a timer so it can integrate the instantaneous
power over time and display the actual energy used in kwh??

daestrom

You can get "clamp on" versions that do data logging, though! Briefcase
things. Was pricing them the other day, so I could do "time weighted"
on bigger stuff, mostly 220, for tracking folks bigger draws, like AC
water pumps. Those puppies, though, are SERIOUS toys, well over a
grand. Don't want to be leaving one of those in somebody's pumphouse
for a weekend ;-). Gonna have to crack open/splice together a couple of
KaWs, see if I can't cobble something together for 220. Anybody else
try it? Haven't given it much thought yet, but instinctively, you'd
think it would work with a bit of effort.

I'd doubt you could make one that does so much for so little; that's
the kicker. And they can be used for some pretty interesting
applications, Kill-A-Watts. One that I use myself is to track how many
kilowatts I "buy" from my genny, for curiosity sake. You can plug them
into a genny's output to tune Hz (ballpark), and, of course, all the
normal stuff like actual instantaneous amp and wattage draw.
One thing that's fun, though, is to take a look at the manufacturer's
page, P3International.com, I think. They make ALOT of amusing toys.

Yeah, I hate that myself. Living in an off-grid home, though, you end
up with alot of them lying around. Ones in the smoke detector, CO
detector (friggin' think takes 9v *AC* from the wart), flashlights,
stuff like that. I have stopped just "pitchin' them", and drop them off
at recycle places. But yep, slowly but surely, I'll be getting as much,
atleast INSIDE the house, switched into the battery supply. Outside the
house, though, is trickier! Hunting and hiking, we got radios, GPSs,
stuff like that, that positively inhales AA batteries. Ah well. What's
life without challenges, eh?

Not directed at me, but I'm as guilty as Steve. I've got a whole
shopful of toys ;-). Truly, though, when you get to a point in your
life that you're doing for money what you like to do for a hobby, the
line between toys and tools gets a little blurry. If it's *fun* wiring
up a windmill, doesn't that make the 200$ multimeter you're using "a
toy"? ;-).
I also violate another cardinal "not a toy" rule, doing long-range
target shooting. VERY fun. Doesn't that turn a rifle into a "toy"?
Serious toy, and one you rarely let others "play" with, and are VERY
careful with, but like, say, a racing car a friend of mine has for the
local mod track... toy?

Yep, works good for that. My only complaint is that it doesn't update
fast enough to accurately tune a genny to feed something like a OutBack
*Grid Tie* FX for battery charging. VERY picky on what they'll take,
those inverters. The regular VFX or FXs, though, are GREAT! I love
mine. It's an issue of Grid Tie requirements, OutBack tells me, that
they're so picky; it has to disconnect at the mere hint of grid
instability, and the genny input is the same blocks as the grid input.

True, grabbing an inverter, a couple of batteries, some cables and
whatnot, throwing it into the back of the truck is fine for personal
use. But for a client who's sitting in the dark while you fix the main
setup... it's nice to just wheel something over and plug into it. I
myself, as George would say, build them from components, but really,
probably can't match the BJ price. Battery, 50$? Inverter, 50$? Air
Compressor, 20$ Then the DC disconnect, fuse, cables, outlets, hard
pressed to make THAT work. You're right, of course, George, it's not a
"serious" power center, but something you can limp with until the real
one is running again.
My only real dislike of those "power boxes" is that when a client sees
THAT for 100$, sometimes it's a hard go, explaining what an OutBack
PowerBoard, for instance, costs , and why ;-).

Now you have atleast two ;-).

Yep, throwing a little morningstar charge controller and a 75 watt
panel would be a really cool upgrade for that. Maybe strap the whole
thing to a 2-wheel dolly?

DJ

and an bigger battery, like the 115ah, 27 series deepcycle at walmart
for $53. Or maybe just build one from components ( I have one of those,
too) since you have the dolly for transport.

>>Must work really well. Maybe almost as well as my clamp meter.

ah, come on, you know he'll say yes, now that you've given him the
answer ....

That sounds like a nice "toy"!

just a thought.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

Not anymore apparently, but check the archives... about a year ago we
had this same discussion about the usefulness and affordability of
Kill-a-Watt, Wattsup, etc. George started out arguing that his
breakout box method was just as good, but changed his tune eventually.
How did he forget so quickly? My guess is that tiny marsupials sneak
into his room each night and steal portions of his mind. Perhaps
they're stocking the pieces to build a very tiny but scary DMV droid.
:-)

Wayne

Oh oh, now you've done it. I bet we're going to get a lecture on how
it's preferable to communicate using a digideroo, and find direction
by checking which side of the kangaroo the moss is growing on. :-)

Reminds me... I just saw the Garmin Geko on sale for $49.
http://www.techbargains.com/tellafriend2.cfm?news_id=38465

Wayne

"wmbjk" <wmbjk@REMOVE_THIScitlink.net> wrote in message
news:3h4tt05df9nq19hpf...@4ax.com...

I wouldn't hire him. I want somebody knowledgeable, that has laid in bed at
night punching the buttons on his toys to see what they can do. I guess I
want a "hacker" and not a professional with a suit and tie on.

news:4k4tt0dvek1bjo4uk...@4ax.com...

news:tvrtt01v76uojlesd...@4ax.com...

"Steve Spence" <spe...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:OxyDd.129269$Uf.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Nope that does not make two days autonomy either. Try again.

In article <u6stt0lobgvn5qhon...@4ax.com>,

Nope that does not make two days autonomy either. Try again.

Nope that does not make two days autonomy either. Try again.

Nope that does not make two days autonomy either. Try again.

You can't do it can you

Did I claim that?

Nope that does not make two days autonomy either. Try again.

So

As it turnes out, Yes. But it amazes me that you need it to count how
many times the MW is used.

So you have a MM that will measure a few hundred amps and does not
measure Freq. Biz

Looks flash when you show it off, eh.

>As it turnes out, Yes.

Then why did you call it a toy? And why do you feel the need to find
something wrong with owning and using one?

You might explain exactly how *you'd* measure the energy consumption
of a dishwasher *without* using something like a Kill-a-Watt. Let me
guess... the "professional" and convenient breakout box/clamp-on
meter/stopwatch/pen and paper/sit and wait/calculator method? That
would look flash when you show it off... until your customer finds out
that you only do it that way because you're too pigheaded to spend $25
for a the proper tool (http://tinyurl.com/47o95), or $5 for a surplus
house meter. But we shouldn't discount the most likely possibility -
that you've never measured the energy consumption of a dishwasher.

Wayne

And you with nine years of data and a Kill A Watt.

Back on your moped Wayne. The Jons are waiting.

In article <2fnvt09qgrgedbrev...@4ax.com>,
wmbjk <wmbjk@REMOVE_THIScitlink.net> wrote:

I didn't. Steve did.

Nope, to quote Calvin, talking to Hobbes about his 'messy' coloring
book, "yeah, but if I color INSIDE the lines, I get the picture THEY
want!"

DJ

I work with many of the "professional" electricians, engineers, managers and
the rest of the ilk that don't have the time of day to experiment and as far
as I am concerned they can stay away from my projects. Sometimes it is an
ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come and beg for
information because they can't our toys do what the good guys can but I
would never hire them given a choice.

Was that clear enough for ya'?...LOL

"DJ" <dj_mac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105199278.6...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

news:ghio-57A759.1...@news.chariot.net.au...

news:2fnvt09qgrgedbrev...@4ax.com...

Really? How odd. Most of the new installations I've seen all have
an outlet under there somewhere that the dishwasher plugs into.
I guess different places do things differently.

In any case, there are always going to be some loads you can't
conveniently measure. Lucky for us the power company provides a
meter that measures everything. Once you've measured all the
stuff that you easily can then you just need to subtract those
totals from the power meter readings and that will tell you what
everything else uses.

Anthony

and deduct the loss of the transformer...........

Me

No, but that is an integral feature of the 'Kill-A-Watt'. Makes it easy to
determine the energy usage of all sorts of intermittent duty appliances. So
I don't have to guesstimate the number of hours an appliance runs each
month.

For example, left my PC power strip plugged in through it for two months to
find my 'average' PC energy usage. About 33 kwh.

daestrom

You may want to draw that out on piece of paper. Keep in mind that the meter
has to read voltage, current and power factor.

This may prove to be a bit harder than a first look tells you.

mike

Why? It sounds pretty simple to me. That said, I am not in love with the
idea. The disadvantages would be: 1) The losses of the transformer would result
in reduced accuracy (you would always get a somewhat high reading), 2) the
transformer will probably change the power factor somewhat and, 3) obtaining and
transporting a heavy/expensive transformer.

Another way *might* be to wire an adapter and use the KaW on just one half
of the line, then multiply the measured power by two. This idea will
(naturally) only work with a balanced load (I think you will find that most 220
loads are balanced.)

Vaughn

>
>
>
>
>
> mike

Steve used the word as part of a useful contribution, and you've used
it to advertise that you'd rather quibble and struggle than shell out
a few bucks for a basic tool.

<place holder for "solar power consultant's" invisible explanation>

IOW, until Murphy gets a dishwasher, his "consultant" don't need no
steenking Kill A Watt, preferring instead to squander his hours
protecting Usenet readers from those who would mention useful and
affordable gadgets.

Wayne

99% eh? http://tinyurl.com/3vf7h Looks like another Gymyism for m II
to add to his list. Unless you can provide a cite... try here -
www.singleusecircuitbreaker.raredishwashercord.com

Regardless... no matter the hookup, a genuine professional isn't going
to waste his time or his client's money by using an (ordinary) clamp
meter to measure the energy use of a variable load. A dishwasher for
instance takes about an hour to cycle. So at even $25 an hour, a Kill
A Watt would pay for itself the first time it was used on a
dishwasher. Then again, we shouldn't discount the possibility that
there might be legions of homeowners who'd *like* having a
homily-spouting "consultant" hang around logging clamp-meter readings
one appliance at a time.

Wayne

It does? :-)

Wayne

"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jbXDd.136787$AL5.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

A 'tool,' For instance - a hammer, is what a tradesman uses to
perform mundane tasks!

www.gozintothe wall.com/it_doesn't_work_either

news:fpq0u0lrntiau8r9v...@4ax.com...

We have an electrical code that tries to prevent fires and injuries, not
written for convenience.

"Anthony Matonak" <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:ocUDd.2235$u47.1800@trnddc09...

"Clarence_A" <n...@No.com> wrote in message
news:S8%Dd.9571$5R....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

That doesn't make two days autonomy either. You are hopeless aren't you.

That won't work either

Still nothing as to how you get two days autonomy. And all that data to
work with too. Sad to see such a cretin flaunt his failure

Then, that's good? Ok. I'll go along with that ;-).

Really, to play in this game, ya gotta do that. Almost as much to know
what to say when a client calls and says that some component is doing
something odd; if you've screwed something up already intentionally
just to see what it does, you're ahead of the game when you have to
solve the problem when somebody does in unitentionally ;-).

DJ

DJ

DJ

Or the heater left on in the basement 1500W running on low (never shuts
off) and the upsatirs NG thermostat turned down, bragging about how low
their gas bills are lately, but that damn electric bill is out of this
world???

People are their own worst enemies.

My favourite is the heater that the kids left on last spring but there can't
be anything on since the kids moved out last spring and nobody ever goes
down there...LOL

Ever clamp on the water pipe to the hot water heater? Tells ya' if the
element has a ground in it. Careful. You can get fooled with another ground
in the house finding it's way back to the transformer neutral.

"Geeez. It can't be my water heater!! That units works so well it makes the
water boil in the morning! It must be OK"

news:1105244221.9...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I don't see any possibility of it working. The device has to have 240V going
to it. You want to connect a 240 volt transformer to these supply wires. Ok
so far...you can now measure 120 Volts on the other side of said
transformer. That's not enough. Where do you get you load amperage reading
from? If I were a betting sort....

Not in the case of a dryer or electric stove. In a dryer, the motor and
controls are 120. The elements MAY be switched between 120/240, depending on
setting. Same with stoves. With the advent of solid state heat controls,
though, this series/parallel, 120/240 volt switching is nowhere near as
common as it was some years ago. In any two wire 240 volt load, I'd agree
with you.

mike

Thank you for yet ANOTHER gem...

--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##

You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go fuck yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

In Alberta the the vast majority of water heaters are natural gas. I was a
bit surprised to see an electric tankless setup a few months back. They had
bought it because it was relatively cheap to purchase.

It was comprised of roughly 30cm (1 ft) of 3/4 inch water line in a
horseshoe shape with an electric heater in each leg. These were connected to
TWO 2pole 30 amp breakers.

After a year of use, they went back to a normal tank, as they didn't like
paying the four hundred dollar a month electrical bill.

The interior of British Columbia has many electric heated houses. Mainly
baseboard heat. Your heart has to go out to the poor dwellers. Gas is
getting pretty wide spread now, but the rates go up regularly.

Outlawing ALL corporate donations to ALL political parties would be good
start in getting OUR public servants to listen to US again.

mike

>We are not allowed to plug 20A devices into 15 amp circuits here. It must be

Bravo! You've hit on the five main problems with dishwashers - rogue
units adding 5A at border crossings, obscenely expensive "special"
power cords, risk of fire and personal injury, and the lack of
convenience. Hopefully the folks at 60 Minutes are reading....

Wayne

>The only problem is pulling the desk out and crawling behind it with a

Yeah, you wouldn't want to buy any of those pricey extension cords.
These &*^%ing wire manufacturers must think we're made of money.

Wayne

Another fun one I came across was a dual wood-electric furnace. A 20kw
electric element in addition to the firebox. Seems it wasnt enough for
the previous owner, though, so they stuck a 4kw booster in the ductwork
as well, just an anonymous gray box on the ductwork... with a 220v line
running into it ;-).
The previous guy musta known *some* stuff, though, because he had it
triggered on a air flow switch; when the furnace blowers ran, so did
it! So even when the new owners *thought* they were being energy
conscious, and just using the wood portion of the furnace, with the
main 20kw breakers shut down, as soon as the forced air blower engaged,
bam, an extra 4kw draw ;-).

Thing is, grid electricity, really, is awful cheap, and people play
with it like SuperSoakers at a ten year old kids birthday party.
Yup, humidifiers, de humidifiers, UV water purifiers, forgotten 1kw
space heaters, 100 watt outside lights people forget to turn off...
DJ

Does the current go up or down when you have voltage drop?

LOL

news:ppd2u0hab56j4noge...@4ax.com...

Mind you, of the several "not built in" dishwashers that my family/
friends have had, none seemed to have been 20A. All had the standard
parallel blade 15A plugs.

>the big buck for the special receptacle and the special plug.
umm... big bucks? we'd be talking a $10 increase max.
(and probably closer to $2)

I know if I were going to install a built in, i'd wire it via a plug
and receptacle since it would make it easy to take out and
service... same reason i put in shutoffs under the sink when I last
replaced the faucet.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

It depends on the type of load.

Vaughn

>So the voltage drop in the cheap extension cord doesn't get compensated for?

You probably shouldn't be laughing right after needing a public
prompting to use an extension cord. But at least you don't have to
crawl around under the desk anymore. Thank God for Usenet eh?

Wayne

Philip Lewis wrote:

mike

> mike

Vaughn wrote:

mike

news:DM6Ed.84336$KO5.25348@clgrps13...

Gymy Bob wrote:

Children are venerially created.

What is a PMW?

news:DT6Ed.84421$KO5.80460@clgrps13...