OT: America Under Attack

----------
In article <9e0bb4d4.01091...@posting.google.com>,
fwd...@yahoo.com (fwd...@yahoo.com) wrote:

> Yesterday, September 11, 2001, another day that will live in infamy,
> cowardly Arab (a redundancy?) terrorists killed and maimed thousands
> of innocent people in four coordinated plane hijackings ending in the
> demolition of three buildings in the World Trade center and a portion
> of the Pentagon.
>

<fwd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9e0bb4d4.01091...@posting.google.com...

> Finally the United States must wake up to the true nature of Islam. It
> is NOT a religion - it is a radical political movement with the aim of
> destroying all democratic countries, the United States in particular.
> The history of Islam is a history of murder, brutality and
> destruction. It is a cancer on the face of this planet.
> The only logical response is the destruction of Islam. Every Islamic
> country must be bombed into cinders. Not a living thing should be
> left, not a building left standing - a total and all out nuclear
> attack on every one of these gangster nations.
> Across the world, every Arab, every follower of Islam, must be
> eliminated. No trial, no appeal, just the instant death they wish upon
> others. This is not murder any more than eliminating any other type of
> vermin is considered murder. This is self-preservation.
> Regardless of the thoughts of our pusillanimous "allies", America must
> take unilateral action. Right now, we have the ability and we have the
> power - to NOT use it would be a crime against humanity.
> WAKE UP PRESIDENT BUSH, IT'S US OR THEM - DESTROY ISLAM - DESTROY ALL
> ARABS

Until now, the concept was "Everyone keep quiet, and no one gets hurt".

Anyone aware that the planes were going to crash into a building would
have done the courageous thing. That's why they weren't told. I'm sure
everone on board (excepting the dead pilots) were expecting to LAND at
an airport and wait for negotiations to start.

I'm still uncertain about the numbers involved with the planes, but it
seems that three hit their targets, one was shot down by the US
military, and the last one (??) crashed. Could it be that the terrorist
on this flight did not get his way because of a courageous American
Pilot?

I've seen a lot of crazy speculation on a lot of lists, it's time to sit
back and wait for the details to drift in. If the bastards that did this
get another year of probation - big deal - I am confidant that the whole
story will come out and the right people will be brought down. This
crime will not go unpunished.

> [snip]

> [snip]

Bob, I was up all night (the terrorists struck late in the evening
Japan time) following the details of the attacks, and I found tears
coming into my eyes on several occasions. I understand your anger.

However, unlike you perhaps, I have Islamic and Arabic friends, people
who are as horrified by all of this as anyone. For them Islamic
fundamentalism is a travesty of their beliefs, just as the
Inquisition, the burning of witches, the destruction of indigenous
peoples in the New World and elsewhere and the organized Churches'
collusion with the Fascists and the Nazis are a travesty of
Christianity. There's been enough bloodshed in the name of
Christianity for it to be possible to change one word in your diatribe
and say, with some justification, "The history of Christianity is a
history of murder, brutality and destruction." And the corollary, in
your terms, would be: "The only logical response is the destruction of
Christianity. Every Christian country must be bombed into cinders."

Don't get carried away here. When it comes down to it, the people who
carried out these atrocities were a bunch of probably less than 20
individuals. Sure, there's obviously some organisation behind them,
and they have their sympathisers - perhaps millions of them - but
let's sit back and think a minute before baying for the blood of a
third of humanity (i..e., some 1,800,000,000 Muslims plus non-Muslim
Arabs plus those who are neither Muslim nor Arab but happen to be
sitting in the wrong place when a bomb gets dropped).

Just study the soil the kind of extremism which produced these
atrocities grows up in. The Palestinians have had their land and
rights and dignity taken from them with US connivance and ordinary
Iraqi citizens have watched their country being bludgeoned back into
the stone age - and their children die of curable illnesses - because
of sanctions led by the US on the basis that they don't like a
leadership which the Iraqi people themselves did not vote for and
cannot get rid of even if they want to (and many of them do). (As a
Brit, I should add that the British government has aligned itself with
US policy in both cases.) Sure, the Taliban are completely nuts, but a
large proportion of their fellow countrymen know that and are as
appalled by them as we are. More so. They have to live with their
lunacy from day to day.

As a matter of urgency, those who perpetrate this kind of crime must
be stopped, by whatever means necessary. But, as a longer-term
safeguard against the resurgence of this kind of extremism, the West
needs to respond, not with the kind of knee-jerk xenophobia you
exhibit (a 21st century version of "the only good Injun's a dead un",
only with nukes instead of Colt revolvers to back it up), but with a
greater commitment to understanding the grievances of the Arab world.
Some of those grievances deserve no sympathy at all, but others are
very valid and very real and ignoring them is just setting the scene
for more violence of this kind in the future.

I'd like to think this posting will have a more positive effect than
just provoking you into working up a lot more adrenalin and snarling
some more about pusillanimous allies", but I have no great
expectations. So on another level, just consider; if President Bush
listened to you and went ahead and dropped enough nuclear bombs to
wipe out the entire Islamic/Arabic world he'd end up releasing enough
radioactive dust into the atmosphere to choke the rest of the planet
(including you) slowly to death! Fortunately, so far he's showing a
bit more sense than you are.

When a crime is committed you punish those who perpetrated that crime
and those who collaborated with it and colluded in it. You don't go
calling for the blood of countless millions of women, children, babies
and unborn foetuses. If you do that, then, with all respect to your
feelings of outrage, and with all sympathy for the tragedy that has
befallen the people of your country, you show yourself to be no less
steeped in the mire of "murder, brutality and destruction" than the
terrorists themselves.

To those who feel that this is not the appropriate forum to discuss
these issues, my apologies - you're right. But I can't just leave a
call for the murder of some two billion people sit sandwiched between
discussions of the collectibility of gilt-edged leather-bound editions
and the propriety of selling books before their official release date
without saying *something*.

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

And the Ugly American raises his head. But for the details of your rant, you sound
just like the fanatics you condemn--fanatics who are no more representative of Islam
in general than right-wing militias or the KKK are representive of Americans in
general, or of Christians in general, or of conservatives in general. Your reaction,
while understandable, is, to say the least, counterproductive, and only adds to the
ugliness of what is already one of the ugliest moments in our history.

Blame those who deserve the blame--those who committed these terrorist acts, those who
directly supported them, and those who gave them aid & comfort--but don't lay angry
and unjust condemnation on the millions & millions of Muslims who have never harmed
anyone and don't support those who have.

--
Jon Meyers
"To be a prophet it is sufficient
to be a pessimist." --Elsa Triolet

As if you have any way of knowing what you would or could have done under the
circumstances. Your reaction is a masterpiece of denial & victim-blaming--this very
bad thing would never have happened to *me*, and all those passengers who failed to
stop the bad thing are craven cowards who deserved their fate. You are clearly
speaking out of anger & frustration, but your words are ugly and unhelpful.

You SERIOUSLY need to get an education. At
least, it remains my belief that this level
of bigotry exists only in a vacuum where a
brain belongs. For starters, I recommend
the poetry of Hafiz and Rumi which just might
help you grow something in that vacuum.

-paghat

--
"Come on along with the Black Rider
We'll have a gay old time
Lay down in the web of the black spider
I'll drink your blood like wine." -T. Waits

No, not "Islamic Afghans"--rather, a particular minority of them, the Taliban, who
control the country not by popular election or any other remotely democratic
mechanism, but because they control the military and have the backing of the Pakistani
government. You need to brush up a bit on your history. The US and other Western
countries gave aid to the Islamic guerrillas known as the mujaheddin, who eventually
took control of the country in 1992, 3 years after the USSR finally pulled out. But
the mujaheddin goverment was in turn overthrown by the Taliban 4 years later. So the
elements to whom we gave aid 15-20 years ago are not the same group that is now giving
support to terrorist organizations, and most Arab and other Islamic countries, like
the rest of the world, don't even officially recognize the Taliban government. Are
you completely unaware that there is a civil war going on in Afghanistan? That a
significant number of Afghanis, probably a majority, are utterly opposed to the
Taliban and what they stand for?

Blaming the Muslims alone for the mess in the Balkans is so reductively simplistic
that one hardly knows where to begin in refuting it. Yes, we protected Muslims from
Serbs--and Muslims from Croats, and Croats from Muslims and Serbs, and so on and so
on. We stepped into an internecine conflict that has been festering for decades, even
centuries, and only the truly deluded could think that the brief & lukewarm
intervention of US, UN, and NATO forces was going to make all the problems disappear
like magic.

To fwdixon: that you can honestly blame an entire religion (oh, I forgot, to
you it's not a religion) for the events of the past few days shows me that you
are no better in your beliefs than the perpetrators are in theirs. The only
thing that remotely spares you in my mind is that you have not yet expressed
your mindless and misguided hatred in the form of physical violence. I regard
Islamic followers in general as I do the American people -- fellow members of
the human race. You, fwdixon, I have begun to equate with the same disgusting
hatred which is shown by those terrorists who have, by their actions, not only
removed themselves from the Islamic faith, but the human race as well.

To Mr. Davis: That you have the unmitigated gall to call the victims of those
highjackings "wimps" is to distiguish yourself as the most unsypathetic (nay,
pathetic) and un-American moron it has ever been my displeasure to encounter.
As someone who knew one of the passengers on American Airlines Flight 11, I can
tell you that my friend was no wimp. If there had been any possible way of
knowing what those terrorists intended to do, I can say with confidence that
he, and many others on that flight and the others, would have done all in their
power to prevent the tragic events from going full course. I believe that
indeed, they attempted to do so and their only sin was to not succeed.
May I suggest to you, Mr. Davis, that you show exactly how uncowardly YOU are
in venting your oh so righteous opinions and judgements by making them pubic
beyond the confines of USENET? I suggest all the major media outlets and the
major heads of the U.S. government for starts. I dare you to share these
opinions of yours with the families of the victims. Oh, and make sure to
include your complete and correct name and address. To do otherwise would most
certainly earn you the label of "wimp".

Scortch (feeling up to his nickname)

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:21:02 -0400, Rich Davis wrote
(in message <xjQn7.322$6L5.1...@nntp2.onemain.com>):

----------
In article <tq0dlqc...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jon Meyers"
<cath...@connectria.com> wrote:

...etc etc.

Thanks for pointing out that people are angry, else I'd never have noticed. But anger
doesn't excuse bigotry and blaming the guiltless. If disdaining that kind of mindless
hatred makes me a goody two-shoes, I'll accept the label. And if I came off as
pompous, it was probably because I was trying (though not entirely successfully) to
express my disagreement without anger myself, trying not to add to the atmosphere of
frustration & finger-pointing. Go ahead and vent all you want--but why not do it in
the right direction, and aim your vituperation at those who deserve it and not at just
anyone who happens to make an easy target?

As for the term "ugly American," I'm aware of its origin. I'm also aware that it has
been "bandied about" so extensively that it has, for better or worse, taken on
colloquial meanings--including one, though not precisely the way I used it, that
appears in the OED: "an American who behaves offensively abroad"--entirely different
from its original one. This happens to words & phrases all the time.

Lindig

John Wilson wrote:

--
----------------------------------------------------------
Lin Digs Books ~ www.ABEbooks.com/home/LinDigsBooks ~ 217-E Merrimon Ave. Asheville NC 28801 usa ~ 828.236.0669 ~
Used Good Books at Good Prices (especially Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Peter O'Donnell, and Pop-Ups)
----------------------------------------------------------

Jelal the Majestic Fool received the news of his young friend Balafari
unexpectedly having died in the prime of a tremendous talent. Always had
he played his flute strictly in service of divine illumination. His death
was a loss to the world of Islam, and even the heathen Christians were
griefstricken to think there would not again be such music heard upon the
earth.

In an open courtyard and through all the surrounding streets, thousands
of mourners gathered, their eyes streaming tears as they filed past the
quiet corpse of Balafari. A tearless sky cast sunlight on his placid,
moveless face; flower petals were heaped about him; and a wood-carved
flute lay upon his chest.

Early in the evening, Jelal arrived from out of the desert. As he
approached the beautiful body of Balafari, who lay as one sleeping, Jelal
was in a jovial mood, though all others wept and lamented. Among the
heathen amidst the crowd were many greatly alarmed over what they
perceived as Jelal's disrespect for a departed member of his faith. They
could not help but whisper between themselves how the sufi master was
heartless to be laughing at such a time. So Jelal leaned over the corpse
of his young friend and said, "Balafari! People are despairing because you
have died! Rise up and play for them, that their spirits become upraised
and bright!"

Balafari at once sat upright and crossed his legs. He raised his flute
and began to perform. For three days and three nights he played without
cessation, and Jelal was merrily beside him this whole while, never once
becoming tired. There was ecstatic dancing along the city's boulevards,
song was on everyone's lips, and all arms were raised to heaven without
becoming heavy or needing to be let down. By the third day, eight thousand
Romans converted to Islam for what they witnessed.

At last Jelal left the courtyard and returned to the desert, at which
time Balafari lay back down and never again on earth gave evidence of
life.

When the whole of this creation ends, a great feast of sages will be
held in heaven. Over this feast the Prophet's daughter, Zahra the Shining
Maid, shall preside with her whirling two-edged sword of fire, with which
she parts the righteous from the unrighteous so that only the righteous
eat. And Balafari will be present, playing his flute, while Jelal sings
the suras from the Koran.

And all the Romans, except eight-thousand, will be devoured by Zahra's
sword of fire.

Tom

"fwd...@yahoo.com" wrote:
>
> j-ya...@sophia.ac.jp (John Wilson) wrote in message news:<5d08e56f.01091...@posting.google.com>...

> Don't let them fool you.
> Those filthy towelheads would just as soon slit your throat as look at
> you.
> Every single one of those stinking pigs has to be eradicated and the
> sooner the better.
> Once again I call for an all out nuclear attack on every Islamic
> nation.

> paghatS...@netscape.net (paghat) wrote in message
news:<paghatSPAMMENOT-...@soggy72.drizzle.com>...

> Paggie, you old tampon, I suggest that you break out a history book
> and study the horrors perpetrated by Muslims in the name of their
> gutter "religion".
> Nothing good has EVER come from Islam and nothing ever will.
> Nitwit pantywaist "leaders" in our country have refused to recognize
> the dangers inherent in Islam - perhaps out of stupidity or cupidity.
> It's unfortunate that we have chosen to close our eyes and pretend
> that Islam is just peachy - as long as we get our oil!
> Islam is and always was a political movement.
> It's history is that of destruction.
> It is a cancer on our planet and must be eliminated.
> Nuke 'em all - let God sort 'em out.

Should've known you wouldn't bother to sample Rumi & Hafiz before lowering
yourself still further in folks' already pretty low esteem -- no one comes
to your conclusions without trying awfully hard to stay stupid. Bookish
people especially should know that much of the greatest classical
literature is Islamic, & of the best western literature survies ONLY
because Muslims preserved it while Popes were having it all burned. And if
Islam had produced nothing better than Arabian Nights Entertainment,
that'd be enough to show what a Klansman tard YOU'RE being. But if you try
crossposting your sentiments to alt.music.white-power you might get some
support from the sorts of lovelies who'll sing your song with you.

As a Jew I get annoyed with muslim bullshitters at least once a week but
as I said, actually having a little education on a topic makes it hard to
become totally prejudiced against it -- barring utter stupidity, bigotry
tends to diminish. But if others have been feeling a little peevish
(though I trust not entirely bigotted) about Islam this week, this might
be eased by a reminder that, in fact, Islam is good, which a bit of Rumi
easily conveys:

---------
At every instant and from every side, resounds the call of Love:
We are going to sky, who wants to come with us?
We have gone to heaven, we have been the friends of the angels,
And now we will go back there, for there is our country.
We are higher than heaven, more noble than the angels:
Why not go beyond them? Our goal is the Supreme Majesty.
What has the fine pearl to do with the world of dust?

---------

During the day I was singing with you
At night we slept in the same bed,
I wasn't conscious day or night.
I thought I knew who I was,
but I was you.

---------

Talking is pain.
Lie down and rest
Now that you
Have found a friend.

---------

Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.

Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?

We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.
This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ass, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ass?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.

---------

O you who've gone on pilgrimage -
where are you, where, oh where?
Here, here is the Beloved!
Oh come now, come, oh come!
Your friend, he is your neighbor,
he is next to your wall -
You, erring in the desert -
what air of love is this?
If you'd see the Beloved's
form without any form -
You are the house, the master,
You are the Kaaba, you! . . .
Where is a bunch of roses,
if you would be this garden?
Where, one soul's pearly essence
when you're the Sea of God?
That's true - and yet your troubles
may turn to treasures rich -
How sad that you yourself veil
the treasure that is yours!

---------

We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee;
we are as the mountain and the echo in us is from thee.

---------

-your gift from Rumi & paghat the ratgirl

I'm not willing to believe that Bob wrote this. It has to be a troll.

Bob is obstreperous an a pain in the butt, but he does read books.

--
Scot Kamins
Collecting The Modern Library 1917-1970
(because fanaticism is not limited to politics, religion, or economics)
Want list at http://www.dogeared.com/wtb.html

Regards, Tim

Scot Kamins wrote in message ...

OK. . . we have Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and
Ar-Razi (Rhazes), whose medical writings preserved and added
much to the ancient Greek medical corpus, and thus were standard
textbooks in Europe until well into the Renaissance; and physicists
and astronomers like Al-Hathan (Alhazen), Ulug Beg, Al-Battani
(Albategnius), Al-Bitruji (Alpetragius) and Al-Qasim (Albucasis),
who preserved and expanded astronomical knowledge at a time when
European civilization had sunk pretty deep into the mire. . . I
mean, most of the star names you'll find on any star map are Arabic,
which tells you something there. Mathematicians like Al-Khwarizmi,
from whose name "algorithm" comes. . . you know, "alchemy" and
thus "chemistry", "algebra", "zenith", "nadir", "alcohol" and
"alkali" are all derived from Arabic, which also shows just how
influential Islamic scientists have been, and how many contributions
they made. And then there's poets like Omar Khayyam and Jalal al-Din
Rumi. . . And then, let's see here, there's architecture: the
mosque at Cordoba, the great mosque at Cairo, the Bascarija in
Sarajevo are all quite nice. . . And the convention of rhymed
poetry is also Arab in origin. . . then there's Qawwali music,
the introduction of the lute into Europe. . .

Oh. I see.

You know a theistic religion that isn't?

You do realize that you're calling for the annihilation of
about one fifth of the population of the world, right?
Including seven million US citizens? That, plus the collateral
damage caused by all-out nuclear attacks could get a little
messy there. . . yep, that Solution's pretty Final, I gotta admit.

--
Ben

(I know this isn't going to change his mind -- I just like
imagining this guy turning purple and fuming. Troll the trolls.)

I guess you learn something new every day... I didn't really expect to
see this sort of ignorant drivel on a newsgroup frequented by a
particularly well-read group of individuals. For the record, I'm all
for severe military response directed to any country currently
harboring terrorists. However, only a fool would spout the sort of
bigoted and ignorant rhetoric above. I'd be more than happy to argue
history with you Dixon, but you've already demonstrated that you
couldn't possibly keep up, particularly in the areas of theology and
military history which I *HAVE* made quite a study of.

I'm quite thankful that during the coming war you'll no doubt be
sitting on your fat ass in front of your computer mouthing off on
Usenet rather than making military decisions. Idiots like you are just
a fucking liablity in the field. Piss off.

John

<snip>

The post's Path originated at google.com, but the header gives the
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.187.217.139. A quick trip to http://samspade.org/
fingers this as a computer in the Nassau Library System, based in
Uniondale, Nassau County, New York. Previous posts from both
"fwd...@hardy-boys.net" and"fwd...@yahoo.com", including both
the bigoted spews and more routine, unexceptional posts, show posting
hosts such as 206.187.217.175, 206.187.217.157, and 206.187.217.164,
all in the same block of addresses for the Nassau Library System.
There's also one from 24.188.186.157, which belongs to Cablevision
Systems Corp. in Hicksville, New York. Both towns are in Nassau County,
the western end of Long Island. Bob Finnan's got a PO Box in East
Northport, just down the road and still in Nassau County.

In other words, either it really is Bob Finnan, or Bob's got a pressing
problem with identity theft -- or at any rate needs to remember to log
off the computers he uses in the library. For the sake of the tattered
shreds of my remaining faith in humanity, I hope it's the latter. . .

--
Ben

I'm a reckless individual with a history of being in shitty situations you
couldn't even begin to imagine. I can assure you that another plane
probably would have crashed into the ground somewhere other than a populated
target if I had been on it. If it makes you feel better to think the above,
then so be it. Every passenger that took action in the plane that crashed
outside of Pittsburgh deserves the Medal of Honor. Better to die in the din
of battle and into glory ride.

"Jon Meyers" <cath...@connectria.com> wrote in message
news:tq0dlrb...@corp.supernews.com...

I'm so un-American that I'm about to go back on active military duty. Wanna
join me dipshit? You don't wait around to see what the goddamn terrorists
are going to do when they're carrying carpet knives. If I'm able to post in
the near future, it'll be from a laptop courtesy of a remote server. I'm on
my way to Fort Meade, MD in a few days. I'll give you my room number when I
get there if it makes you happy. Half the people on this newsgroup already
know where I'm living at this moment anyway.

"Scortch" <sco...@blah.net> wrote in message
news:01HW.B7C5C4BD0...@news-central.giganews.com...

"FREE SHIPPING!" <vesp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Pleo7.2053$hu1.1...@nntp1.onemain.com...

> Once again I call for an all out nuclear attack on every Islamic
> nation.

Now is the day, into glory ride
Over the top of a vanquished pride
Sworn to eternal vows
The time to strike is NOW

KILL KILL!

"paghat" <paghatS...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:paghatSPAMMENOT-...@soggy72.drizzle.com...

-paghat the ratgirl

In article <Nzeo7.12039$HM3.1...@nntp3.onemain.com>, "Rich Davis"
<prd...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

--

In which case, Bobbo old yobbo, we're all significantly blessed that
nobody will take the slightest notice of you.

Christ, and here I thought you'd mellowed.

Watch for "Christus Destitutus" in CROSSROADS:
SOUTHERN STORIES OF THE FANTASTIC from Invisible
Cities Press, Spring 2002

the attack on the WTC was indeed an attack on the world, not just America.

steven rowe

I thought I noted this yesterday, but I'm not seeing it posted --
Just to keep the intent of this newsgroup intact --
"Goody Two-Shoes" is also the title of a book.

David Ames

Almost certainly (and when the blackboxes are recovered it will be seen) the
high jackals had the actual pilots go to the New York area, never letting
anyone know their plans, probably telling them they would land there, and
only at the very last minute they took the controls of the aircraft and
commited their insane acts.
On the 4th plane, via cellular, at least one passenger knew about the
towers, once known, well you know where that plane is, there were no
"wimps", there were heroes.
You are not only wreckless, you are not very smart.

Terrorists MUST be wiped, any other path is not a deterrent, but an
incentive, a death penalty for someone willing to die is an incentive, jail
(or any kind of "suffering") is an incentive, even war will be an incentive
until they loose and die.

Please read I said "Terrorists", and not Muslims, nor Arabs nor any other
group, and by terrorists I mean anybody who participated or knowingly helped
in any way in any terrorist act or plan.

As pissed as the terrorists? (whatever the hell they are pissed about)
Do you think they "vented" enough?
On innocent people? Should we do the same?

Funny, I happen to have a few history books which mention the Inquisition

You're missing the point. They were armed with BOX CUTTERS/CARPET KNIVES!

"L Guillermo Herrnandez" <gmo...@club-isp.com> wrote in message
news:9nsu3p$hbg$1...@news.chatlink.com...

http://www.shrineclowns.com/skelton.html

In article <tq0gi6c...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jon Meyers"
<cath...@connectria.com> wrote:
> No, not "Islamic Afghans"--rather, a particular minority of them, the Taliban,
who
> control the country not by popular election or any other remotely democratic
> mechanism, but because they control the military and have the backing of
> the Pakistani
> government. You need to brush up a bit on your history. .......

The Muslims in the Balkans are largely residual from the Turkish Occupation
and have been resented by the Christian majority for that reason for several
hundred years. The Croats co-operated with the Germans during wwll and the
ensuing emnity from the slavs will probably peter out after the wwll
generation is gone. It appears the 'ethnic Albanians' will eventually
succeed by outbreeding their neighbors.

Are you suggesting the Taliban doesn't have broad popular support in
Afghanistan and Pakistan?
This is exactly what was said of the Soviet Union early on and of Castro's
Cuba before the Bay of Pigs and of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan and on
and on and on. You and Paghat need to read something besides the sf,
fantasy, and horror genre. When comes the Jihad I would rather throw in
with with fwdixon, Rich Davis, et al, than with a bunch of latte liberals
who think *their* tame Muslims don't despise Americans in particular and
non-believers in general and aren't secretly rejoicing on this occasion of
our grief. Our alliance with Israel has earned us the undying emnity of
every Arab on the planet, including the one next door and the one who
married your sister. And maybe rightly so -- we have been anything but
even handed in the middle east and have cast our lot with Israel. As for
the average Arab's opinion of the terrorists, the Arabs themselves have an
expression, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

----------
In article <9nsudt$hj1$1...@news.chatlink.com>, "L Guillermo Herrnandez"

Yeah... unless...

Could he be in shock from what has happened? Did he lose anybody
(uncle, cousin, etc.)?
Maybe he's venting to relieve the shock or grief. Maybe it's a
troll...

As my friend Rusty (who left work a few minutes early Tuesday, and was in a car
at a stoplight a few blocks north of the WTC when the first plane hit) said, it
was a shock, but not a surprise.

Bob
Print Matters! Used & Rare Books
http://www.abebooks.com/home/printmat

You seem to believe that there was simply a highjacker standing there, with a
knife or knife-like weapon, and that the passengers knew what was in store for
the flight they were on and simply did nothing out of cowardice. The Penn.
passengers acted as they did because they knew what had happened to the other
flights.

Now, let me ask you. If your life and the lives of those around you are not in
GUARANTEED jeopardy, if, perhaps a highjacker has a blade(of whatever type) to
a flight attendant's throat, how do you justify you taking action against them?
Are YOU the one to decide that that flight attendant's life is worth the CHANCE
that others may die? No guarantees that any of you will come to further harm.
Are YOU willing to risk that person's life? You claim to be a military vet.
Would any general, without the knowledge of the highjacker's final plan and
destination, take that chance?

Simply put, YOU were not there. YOU do not know what occurred except for vague
second-hand descriptions of celluar phone calls. YOU can not say if there was
action against the terrorists.YOU can not say if there was even a chance to
disable the terrorists flying the plane.

In short, YOU are superimposing your mindless macho viewpoint on what YOU
believe happened. YOU are trying to make yourself seem self- important at the
expense of others who can not speak in their defense. YOU would have done
better. But, YOU were not there. YOU can not say truthfully what you would have
done in their situation. YOU do not know what that situation was. YOU are
speaking blindly under assumptions that make YOU a better person than the
unfortunate victims of those flights.

If YOU are indeed going into active duty, make sure to tell all your comrades
in arms that YOU are there fighting for the people who died in those buildings
and only them, not for the "wimps" on those doomed planes. Here's to hoping YOU
serve with the brother of John Ogonowski, pilot of Flight 11, and a National
Guard officer who has requested active duty when we initaiate whatever
retaliation we implement. Make sure you share your YOUR viewpoint with him. I
am sure you will have your chance to prove just how brave YOU are when the shit
comes down.

Any way, damn YOU.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:51:51 -0400, Rich Davis wrote
(in message <M1no7.6$zF4....@nntp3.onemain.com>):

No, unless they were armed with box cutters/carpet knives, and outnumbered
20 or more to 1.

news:01HW.B7C87DE70...@news-central.giganews.com...

Brainless answer, nobody who would risk lives needlessly (as it happened, it
certainly would not have been needless, but the hypothetical question was
based on NOT knowing what was in the high jackals' plans) would become a
general, at least in the US.

As to the other (unconfirmed) assumption, if not knowing the plane was not
going to land and start some kind of negotiations, and a stewardess is being
held with a knife at her throat, you still take action, then you are
actually murdering the innocent stewardess, 20 to 1 or 1000 to 1 makes no
difference when you don't know what lies ahead. I kind of wish you HAD been
on one of the planes.

news:9o28bj$l1$1...@news.chatlink.com...

Rich Davis wrote:

Just a point of accuracy. They will receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom,
not the Medal of Honor.

kwc