Filthy Dirty Power.. maybe

The Wednesday evening before I went, I got home and switched my
laptop on, and discovered it would only boot into safe-mode. I was
quite late home (somewhere between 9 and 10pm) so didn't have a great
deal of time to investigate the problem - but initial attempts at
fixing it (eg returning to a previous restore point) failed. In the
end, I decided I'd have to dig out the accompanying discs and see if
Windows could be repaired from that.

Unfortunately, the discs are in my cupboard, buried under a million
other things, so I decided to actually put up with and /use/ safe
mode the following day at work, and then I could deal with the
problem after my holiday.

However, the following day, when I got to my office and tried to
start the computer, it wouldn't even boot into safe mode. My
immediate conclusion was that the hard drive was fucked. (Which, as a
confirmation, I pulled it out and plugged it into a SATA->USB
adaptor; my data partition was readable[1] but the boot partition
wasn't. So, I've opted for a more expensive, but speedier option than
just buying a new hard drive (since that would still require me to
dig out the CDs to get an OS onto the machine): I ordered a new
laptop, which should be waiting at my office for me today.

I could still attempt to repair the old one (which is actually only
just over a year old) and keep it as a spare: but without expending
any unnecessary extra effort - if and when I happen across the CDs in
the cupboard, rather than go in there looking for them. But all I
actually have to do is restore my backups[2] onto the new computer
and away I go.

In the meantime, I've thought about when it went wrong - about what
was different up to that point. And I've concluded that the cause
might be this:

The client I was working at that afternoon run a small hotel chain;
two of their properties back onto one another, and up until a month
or so back, the office was in a room in one of those two buildings.
One of the directors decided that the office was big enough to turn
into another room, and that what is really only a corridor in the
other building was big enough to use as an office[3]; work was done
to tidy and nice it up, and include some mains points, and the move
was made.

The last time my laptop booted okay was the first time I ever plugged
it into one of the new mains outlets in that office.

It's supposition based on a rather limited statistic of one - but I'm
wondering if they did a cowboy job of the wiring, and do I really
want to risk plugging the new laptop in without first ensuring the
supply is clean?

Does anyone therefore know of anything I can take with me next time
I'm there to plug into that wall and *check* the cleanliness of that
mains supply?

(I can rely on battery power, obviously - but only until the battery
runs low.)

[1] My backup regime had fallen over; my NAS hasn't been plugged in
for a while, so my automatic backups haven't happened in that time.
Not that there's anything significant in my documents folder that
period that would have been a major loss - but as it stands, being
able to access that partition means no documents are lost. The real
problem is the accounts data, which the accounts software stores in
its *program* directory in C:/Program Files/...

[2] Luckily, it appears that for some reason I decided to take a
manual backup of that for all clients on 18th September onto my
little memory stick. I don't remember doing that, but I did it! I can
only think that I realised my NAS wasn't plugged in so my (most
important) data hadn't been backed up, so chose to do a manual one.

[3] It is, if neither of the occupants is a fat, ignorant bastard who
sits between me and the door we use. I don't think he realises that
when I say "Excuse me" to get past, I'm doing so because I can't
easily get past because he's such a fat bastard, and he actually
doesn't move, and I have to give up and squeeze past. Twit.

--
VinceH

Not sure if there is a specific tool for the job, but a sillyscope might
show you if the supply is a perfect sine wave. Probably cheaper to buy a
surge protector and mains filter, rather than test it. We got a UPS from
Ebuyer for about £40 the other day - that should filter noise out (but then
again so should your PSU and battery)

A Martindale plug will tell you if the wires are wired to the correct
terminals.

Bob

Actually, it may actually be supposition based on a still rather
limited (but everso slightly less so) statistic of *two* - what I
forgot about was this:

On that day I took in a brand spanking new wireless router for them. I
plugged that in (long before I plugged my laptop into the mains -
battery power at this point) and tried to connect to it but it just
wouldn't play ball[1] - in the end, I concluded that it was a dodgy
router and needed to go back to the supplier. (Not that it's gone yet
- the death of my laptop and a holiday have kind of got in the way).
Now I'm wondering if the cause of that router's apparent dodginess and
the cause of my laptop's hard drive going FUBAR are one and the same.

[1] By default this router's IP address should be 192.168.1.1, with
DHCP on - so when a PC is connected, it should be given an IP address
of 192.168.1.* (where * is in the default range specified in the DHCP
config) and the router's IP address should be the gateway. Instead,
the PC's IP was nothing like that, and there *was* no gateway.
Completely resetting the router had no effect. By comparison, my
router at home (same make, same model) *also* goes wrong in exactly
the same way when it's powered up at the same time as my NAS, which is
on the same power outlet, which I know is a slightly iffy one.

> Not sure if there is a specific tool for the job, but a sillyscope might

Yeah. A surge protector would be handy for another reason - the mains
outlet for my desk is rather stupidly positioned quite high up the
wall and behind my desk, and that means that in order to use that
outlet, I have to first pull the printer desk out (which is next to my
desk - and lighter than my desk) so that I can reach around to the
back. If it was lower, I could probably reach it from under the desk,
but it isn't. So a surge protector on a length of flex, which could
then be either on the floor under the desk or /on/ the desk itself,
would make things a lot easier as well as make me feel less paranoid
about plugging my laptop in.

Problem is, though, that if I do that and leave it plugged in there,
one day I'll come in to find it gone, having been nabbed to use for
something else. (Carrying it with me just adds to the amount of stuff
I already carry, which is too much! It also means I'd still have to
piss around accessing the outlet.).

I do actually have a UPS sitting around at home somewhere. My
intention was to use it to for the NAS and router (the laptop already
effectively having a UPS in the form of its battery) - so any file
writing to the NAS via the router could be finished cleanly in the
event of a power interruption. However, I discovered that the UPS
wouldn't fit on top of the cupboard with those two devices - which
does mean it's going spare.

But there is no way in hell I am taking that in to leave it in this
client's offices. No way.

I don't think that necessarily follows. Just about every electronic
device sits behind a PSU - so if these help with problem supplies, why
is there even a market for such things as surge protectors?

Besides which, we're dealing with electrickery: I'm not convinced it
always follows the rules.

The market exists because some hear rumors and know those rumors are
facts. A UPS (especially a £40 one) does not filter electricity.
When not in battery backup mode, it connects the computer directly to
AC mains. And when in battery backup mode, the computer sees some of
the 'dirtiest' electricity. Why is 'dirty' UPS electricity
acceptable? Because every computer power supply is so robust as to
make even that dirty UPS electricity irrelevant.

If that UPS filters electricity, then cite that number in the
manufacturer spec. Good luck. Manufacturer makes no such filtering
claims. That filtering is an example of how so much computer
knowledge gets created by the same method that proved Saddam had
WMDs. So many ignore the facts (manufacturer specs) because the myth
is so widely believed.

Do not plug a surge protector or small electric motors in that UPS.
UPS electricity is so 'dirty' that it may harm both devices. It is
called a computer grade UPS because electricity that 'dirty' does not
harm more robust computers.

Does dirty electricity cause a hard drive failure? Power supply
would be damaged long before anything gets to a disk drive. If power
supply was not so robust, then 'dirty' UPS electricity would damage
the disk drive. I will not list the number of times that electricity
is converted from AC to DC back to AC inside a power supply. Bottom
line - spike from AC mains does not get through the power supply as so
many myths claim.

Many see damage, want to blame something, so blame the only thing
that is not seen. They blame surges (the popular myth) rather then a
manufacturing defect that so often causes disk drive failures.
However, they feel the mains must have caused damage. Then use more
feelings to assume a UPS will 'clean' electricity.

[snip]

If nobody has met w_tom before, allow me to introduce him. He is (in
his own mind, anyway) the world's leading expert on electricity,
electrical apparatus and installations, and knows far more than even
the highest qualified electricians, including full and in depth
knowledge of mains supplies in every single country in the world.

--
VinceH

A responsible post provide manufacturer specs that say a UPS filters
electricity. VinceH cannot do that because the typical UPS does not
do that filtering and its specs make no such filtering claim.
Electricians need not know that. A+ Certified computer techs would
not know that. Apparently VinceH did not know that either. So he
attacks the messenger.

VinceH asked:

Myths. Where is a manufacturer number that says it "helps with
power supplies"? If it existed, VinceH would post it? There is no
UPS spec that claims electricity is cleaner or filtered. UPS connects
the computer directly (no filtering) to AC mains when not in battery
backup mode. UPS outputs from its battery only when AC power is
lost. Electricity from that battery is some of the 'dirtiest' seen by
a computer.

Any voltage spikes created by dodgy wiring would be completely
ignored by the surge protector. Surge protectors for 230 volts service
mostly ignore everything below 600 volts. The UPS would only respond
if dodgy wiring caused a voltage drop. Voltage drops do not harm
laptops. Neither ‘solution’ does nor claims to 'clean' that
electricity. Obvious when one needs facts before knowing something.

Fact posted without insulting anyone. Facts that anyone can confirm
by reading manufacturer specs; that VinceH could have (and did not)
provide. So much 'knowledge' comes only from myths because the myth
purveyor did not first read those manufacturer specs.

Myths are the reason why that market exists. VinceH with knowledge
would have posted facts and manufacturer specs. VinceH without
electrical knowledge, instead, must post personal attacks.

Electricity always follows the rules. Many humans don't know those
rules; therefore believe popular myths and assume electricity is
capricious.

---------------------
Why w_tom post read with eastern european accent?

Why w_tom post not get >> treatment?

Why w_tom not put name to postings?

Why w_tom not know battery buffers input and can only give smooth flat DC
output? Does he also refute that capacitors act like capacitors?

Why reponsible poster not post posting about proofings of noisy UPS
outputtings?

Bob

[...]

...he made no actual claims about UPS's or surge protectors, and
readily admits his knowledge of the subject area is lacking (in the
order of 99% lacking), so does not need to provide anything in order
to back up the claims he didn't make.

> VinceH asked:
^^^^^

Yup. *Asked*.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, take your pick) your opinion on the
matter counts for nothing due to my history of seeing you argue
elsewhere. Put simply, any answer you might offer is worthless in my
eyes, because you are what I consider to be a usenet-nutjob.

If I asked what 2+2 equals, and you said 4, I'd ignore it. If (say)
Bob (who replied to me initially in this thread) then came back and
said 4, I'd accept his answer. It may very well be the same answer,
but I trust the answer from him simply due to what I've seen of the
two of you up until that point. Get it?

Why, when I was asking a question? I can't justify the existence of a
market for surge protectors, only point out that there is one - which
is plain to see from the fact that they continue to be manufactured
and sold.

[...]

I may not have knowledge of electrickery, but I *do* have knowledge
of what I've seen of you before. As I said: usenet-nutjob.

--
VinceH

Capacitors inside the power supply smooth power - provide more than
sufficient filtering for electronics. So what is your point?

What, inside a UPS, is between mains and the load (computer)? A
relay. No DC filtering exists between mains and a load. A computer
grade UPS connects the computer directly to AC mains when not in
battery backup mode. A computer grade UPS outputs 'dirtiest'
electricity when in battery backup mode. To properly filter that
'dirty' inverter output requires more than capacitors. Why bother? A
230 volt computer is so robust as to make 400 volt square waves with a
600 volt spike from the 230 volts UPS irrelevant.

Where are these 'capacitors'? Capacitors that make 'dirty' UPS
power irrelevant are inside the computer's power supply with other
'layers' of filtering. Filtering inside the computer makes 'dirty'
UPS power harmless.

Battery buffers? What is this rumored 'battery buffer'? Bob Smith
has apparently confused a £40 computer grade UPS with a £200+ UPS. A
standard computer grade UPS has no 'battery buffers'. It connects the
computer directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode.

Relay? Sometimes that UPS relay can be heard switching by simply
disconnecting AC power. A relay that would not exist if £40 UPS was
'filtering' AC power as Bob implies.

UPS serves only one function: to provide AC electric during
blackouts or extreme brownouts. That function already exists in a
laptop; alongside capacitor and other filters that make UPS and other
'dirty' power sources harmless. Cleanest UPS electricity occurs when
that UPS relay connects a computer directly to AC mains.

Laptop contains components that protect electronics from dodgy house
wiring. Even reversed plugs will not cause computer damage.
Capacitors not inside the UPS, instead, are already part of many
protective layers inside every computer's power supply. Those
capacitors make irrelevant a UPS's 'dirty' electricity output..

You don't have knowledge to understand what was posted. You admit
that. You have no idea that facts and numbers created a 'slam dunk'
post because you don't even know how electicity works. You only know
that you don't like the messenger because others like you only post
insults in reply. Therefore the facts must be wrong?

Bottom line remains - the UPS does not solve your problem and does
not claim to solve that problem. Dodgy electricity from suspect
wiring does not explain your failure. UPS manufacturer specs do not
even claim to filter or 'clean' AC mains power. Since a laptop
already contains battery backup and those capacitors, then the only
useful function of a UPS (to protect from data loss) is useless for
your problem.

I don't have the knowledge to _already_ understand what was said, but
that would be why the original post was written as an explanation of
what appears to have happened[1] leading up to a question.

What I _do_ have is a very good level of intelligence and the ability
to learn from and understand what gets said as a result of such
questions - though I am very careful about who's responses contain
information I would be willing to take on board as a part of that
process.

And I'd add that this is a subject area where other than basic
suggestions (ie an answer to the question I originally posed) I'm not
going to be educated through usenet posts, especially ones made by a
usenet-k00k. If I wanted an education, I'll pop into one of my client
companies (an electrical contractor where the directors are both
fully qualified electricians) before I'm next due there, or I'll pay
my brother (also a fully qualified electrician); I've not pestered
him with the original basic question because he and his girlfriend
have just become parents, so they're a touch busy at the moment.

Of course I do. There are little tiny men running around really fast
inside wire carrying tiny little power units around. They have to be
really, really fast because the power units really are very, very
tiny and don't last very long at all. That's why we pay the
electricity companies - they pay the wages to these men to bring us
the power and provide room and board to them in "power stations".

The discovery that there are primitive power-men, just floating on
the wind, is why we now have wind turbines; to capture them from the
air and put them in the system.

Everyone knows that.

I didn't say your facts are or must be wrong. What I illustrated with
the "2+2" example was that I recognise that you could very well
happen to respond to me with 100% accurate facts - but I wouldn't
*trust* those facts because of who you are and what I've seen of you
before. I will treat whatever you say with a pinch of salt until and
unless I see it verified from someone I don't consider a
usenet-nutjob.

Feel free to point out to me where I said it would or does.

[...]

--
VinceH

Forgot the footnote:

[1] Let's not forget that in my original post, I did state that "It's
supposition based on a rather limited statistic of one - but I'm

supply is clean?" - an important opening to that sentence are the
words "It's supposition" which I did for the reason I said "appears
to have.." above.

--
VinceH

A valid concern based upon limited knowledge. But again, 'cowboy'
wiring would not explain such failures. A UPS (or surge protector)
would not do nor claims to protect from 'cowboy' wiring mistakes.

'Cowboy' wiring mistakes would also cause other electronics failures.

Meanwhile, computers are particularly well protected from wiring
'variations'. An example: did plugging your laptop into a damaged
router cause laptop failure? Hardly. That cable between router and
laptop must have 2000 volts of galvanic isolation at both ends of the
cable. Protection at both ends which means even a total router
failure must not cause computer damage.

And then we make that protection even better with proper safety
grounds.

To provide a better answer means identifying the problem and then
confirming that problem by fixing it. Electricians typically have
insufficient knowledge to understand this. Electrician’s knowledge of
code and human safety requirements typically is insufficient to
explain why electronics stopped working or was damaged. Electronics
are designed to make electrical problems irrelevant. Computers are
designed to be even more robust.

A UPS connects computer directly to AC mains when not in battery
backup mode. A UPS neither claims nor provides filtering or
protection from 'cowboy' wiring. At best, the UPS might detect a
missing safety ground which still must not cause computer or router
failure.

Even reversed AC electric wires must not cause any electronics
damage. Can an electrician say why? No. Those reasons why are
beyond what electricians must know.

Subsequently to the above, of course, I remembered the router and
amended it to a limited statistic of two

Okay, *you* explain the failures, then. The *two* items I have
plugged into that mains outlet have both gone tits-up. What caused it?

[...]

Let me throw another statistic at you. That limited statistic of two
amounts to 100% of the items plugged into that outlet.

[...]

Oh gosh, what a surprise to hear you come out with comments like
that. Especially given that in the post just before the one to which
you replied I mentioned my brother and clients who are qualified
electricians.

If anyone has my "introduction" to w_tom still in their news-client,
now would be a good time to re-read it and nod your heads with a
knowing smile.

[...]

Still fixated on the UPS claim that I didn't make, I see.

[...]

--
VinceH

Why do other electronics on the same circuit still work?

Until the actual router and computer failures are located, then
unknown is what is damaged, why, or if hardware damage even exists.

If both router and computer are hardware damaged, then easy is to
know why long before fixing anything.

If something only in that receptacle caused computer and router
damage, then it will also damage the UPS - the mythical solution. A
UPS has a power supply also found in routers and computers. A UPS
does nothing to avert failure for reasons stated earlier and because
the same suspect receptacle would only harm that UPS. As noted
repeatedly, solution begins by first identifying the 'failure'; not
magically solving 'failure' with a UPS or other assumptions.

UPS does not even claim to fix 'filthy dirty' power. If only one
'cowboy' wired receptacle is causing computer damage, then receptacle
will also destroy UPS electronics. A UPS is not the solution.

Why did you not read beyond the first thing I wrote? If you had done
you would have seen this:

[...]

> If something only in that receptacle caused computer and router

*Still* dwelling on the UPS that I never claimed or suggested as a
solution.

[...]

--
VinceH

(quickly puts head above parapet)...At least one manufacturer does

(quickly ducks for cover, or is that duct?)

What manufacturer of a £40 computer grade UPS makes that claim? One
suggested that a £40 computer grade UPS would 'clean' filthy dirty
power. Where is that spec? And why would a UPS power supply not be
damaged by same suspect 'dirty' power? Filthy dirty electricity is
blamed for destroying a router and computer, but would not harm a
discount UPS?

<snip Eastern European accented rantings>

Still waiting for the proof that UPS gives dirty power output.
<tomcruise>Show me the data sheet!</tomcruise>

A cheap UPS would probably not have the relay on cost grounds, and would
connect through the AC/DC/AC circuit to save the few pence on the relay and
switch over circuit. To hell with the inefficiency heat of the constant
AC/DC/AC conversion, it would be a cheaper design. When running off battery
power, the output of the batteries is a flat DC output, so where would the
noise be coming from?

There is no such thing as battery buffers - I said the battery buffers the
output. Maybe if English was your first language, you would be qualified to
pontificate in it. My short experience of you would lead me to believe the
first words you learned through your early conversations in English would
have been fucktard, dipshit, imbicile, maggot, pillock and cock sucking
sweaty mongoloid..

Bob

AC/DC/AC is the most expensive way to accomplish this. Many UPSes
use only a relay. Even a simplest silicon switch to replace that
relay would cost much more. This is obvious when one designs this
stuff.

The battery does not 'buffer' the output - obviously for so many
reaons. However, popular myths make that mythical 'buffering' battery
claim.

How to make a UPS even less expensive? Connect AC mains directly to
the load with a relay. Recharge the battery with a tiny power supply
equivalent to a wall wart supply (which is why recharging a battery
may take 8 hours). Installl the cheapest DC/230AC converter which
outputs 400 volt square waves and maybe 550 volt spikes between those
square waves. Square waves? Yes, that is also called 'modified sine
wave'. Square waves can be harmful to small electric motors but are
irrrelevant to more robust computers.

You have assumed the battery is constantly powered by a power supply
that must be even larger than a computer's power supply. If your
assuptions were true, then UPS battery would be recharged in minutes -
not hours. To build a UPS without that relay (as you have only
assumed) means the UPS costs maybe £200+. How to sell a UPS for £40.
No large power supply to recharge the battery, a cheapest DC/AC
converter, and a relay to switch the load (computer) from AC mains to
that DC/AC converter's filthy dirty power.

Where did you, for example, fist consult UPS spec numbers for total
harmonic distortion? Or did you hear popular myths about that
'battery buffer' and just assume those myths must be fact?

--------------------

Still not signing your name to your hogwash, still not providing backup to
your hogwash. Failure to provide any backup of your retarded ramblings is
not helping your case.

How can AC-DC-AC be more expensive than AC-DC-AC + relay + switchover
circuit?

A battery in parallel with a circuit will smooth it.

Consult the harmonics of my sphincter as I fart in your general direction.

Piss up a rope fuckstick. I only reply to your brain dead ramblings for
sport, and now I tire of you. Trollbaiting is not as much fun as I heard it
was.

Bob

Not with AC!

--
Ian Collins

Hang on... aren't those the lyrics to Fairytale o' New York?

--
VinceH

The charger circuit is probably a current limiting resistor in thi case -
the ones in cheapo rechargable drills are!

Hopefully the wigglies will be flattened by at least a half wave rectifier
before it gets to the batteries.

Bob

Purple!

How does a current limiting resistor permit all that power to both
charge the battery AND operate then load (computer)? How does a
battery that is consuming milliamps "smooth" 13+ amp AC circuits?
Obviously it does not.

What does Bob Smith's half wave rectifier do? If it does anything,
it distorts the AC mains - increases total harmonic distortion -
because it only draws power from the top of AC waves.

Bottom line - that UPS does nothing to clean "filthy dirty power".
Instead, a UPS in battery backup mode outputs some of the 'filthiest
dirtiest power'. Power so dirty that UPS manufacturers recommend no
plug-in protectors on its output. Power so dirty as to threaten small
electric motor life expectancy.

Computer grade UPS cleaning AC power is a classic example of
'experts' who know only because so many myth purveyors told them how
to think and because knowledge of how electricity works was missing.

Most absurd is Bob Smith’s latest myth that a half wave rectifier
drawing only milliamps will somehow clean AC electric mains.

The UPS is not a solution to a rumored AC receptacle causing
electronics damage. Worse, if an AC receptacle is creating hardware
damage, then it will also damage the UPS.

Oh shit, I said PSU - that is enough stimulus for the fucktard turing
machine to cut and paste one of his usual ranting paragraphs...

news:a1992fac-7c13-4864...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

[about our new guest, w_tom]

I did say when he first appeared. :)

I think he googles certain key words and phrases, and then joins in
any discussions on those subjects. I've most often seen him when the
subject of lightning strikes crops up.

--
VinceH

Bob

What was posted applies to half wave rectifiers, full wave
rectifiers, or any other supply that recharges that UPS battery from
AC mains. You have repeatedly posted myths that the UPS battery
'smoothes' power to the load (computer). That is false no matter
which way you spin it or change your claims.

Stop posting four letter profanity. No matter how many times you
curse, it does not change the facts. That UPS does not clean 'filthy
dirty power' AND does not even claim to clean AC mains. Your claim
only exists where junk science reasoning is popular.

A UPS connects its load (computer) directly to AC mains when not in
battery backup mode. And that same UPS applies some of the
'filthiest, dirtiest power' when in battery backup mode. No matter
how you spin it, that forty quid computer grade UPS does nothing -
ZERO - to clean AC mains electricity. Only myths say otherwise.

If you stop posting outright and obvious lies, then I would not
reply. You owe others an apology for lying to them - for posting
without first learning the technology. A responsible poster would
have first read the UPS numeric specifications. You did not even do
that! You posted only because you heard myths without asking a single
technical queston or consulting a numeric specification sheet. That
is why I am here. You lied to the newsgroup using classic junk
science reasoning. Then you post profanity. Shame on you for lies
and profanity.

[blah, blah, blah]

You have no idea of the ethos of this group, have you?

<Mel Blanc>

Ooooh, a live foamy! Can I keep him, huh? Can I?

</Mel Blanc>

Where's Stormy when you need him, eh? Tccchh.

--
Steveski

[...]

> A UPS connects its load (computer) directly to AC mains when not in

If you'd care to remember (if your memory copes with complex things,
and accurately - considering you kept accusing me of making claims
about what a UPS does that I hadn't made) I /did/ say I already had a
UPS which was effectively going spare, because I was unable to use it
(it doesn't fit in the space I was going to put it).

I can see that UPS from my desk, and I can see what it says on the
box - and it claims to offer surge protection on all three of its
outputs (and looking closer it mentions something about AVR to
compensate fluctuations in the mains supply, and further down 150
joule spike protection). I'm not going to bother to open it up and
see if there's any technical reference specified to shut a clown like
you up. This is because:

I know that being bullet points on the side of the box these are
primarily marketing points because they are trying to sell the goods
- but here's an important point: in the UK our rules about claims
made in advertising and promotional material are actually very good.
If this device did not offer that claimed protection, they would not
be able to sell it.

By the way: fuck jizz cunt smeg shit cock fanny arse ass prick dick.

Have a nice day.

--
VinceH

It is quite clear that this cunt is about as much use as Anne Frank's drum
kit.

John

Is this the right room for an argument?

--
SB

Bob

[snip]

But it did keep his quota up - well done, Vince.

Come on the rest of you, you're slacking :-)

--
Steveski

[...]

> Some of those weren't 4 letter...

Quite true. There are two five letter words, and one three letter one
- so if I add another three letter word, then it averages out nicely
at four.

So, without further ado: tit!

--
VinceH

<Monty Python>

A very "woody" word. Caribou!

</Monty Python>

--
Steveski

Caribou, caribou,
does whatever a caribou do
can he swing from a web
no he can't he's an orange flavoured liqueur

ah, yum, curacao.

masquerading as an American reindeer

No. This is (definitely) abuse.

:-}

--
Cheers,

Chas.

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination".

I thought it was Being Hit on the Head lessons - WAAAH!

--
Steveski

Right then, you fucktarded spazwipe, you refuse to post datasheets (WTF are
"numerical specifications"? Speak English, motherfucker) or peer reviewed
research papers documenting the "filthy dirty power" of which you speak.
You refuse to sign your name to your inane drivel. You can look up tech
specs any time you want yourself, but here they are:

Belkin guarantee up to £200,000 for items connected to thet protective
equipment. They protect from surges, spikes and lightning up to this value.
http://www.belkin.com/uk/activebattery/
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=153777

They have a "Pure sine wave output"
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=120918

How the fucking hell can a pure sine wave be "filthy dirty power" (as you
are seen to cut and fucking paste repeatedly).

And that is just one manufacturer. If you want more, do the fucking legwork
yourself.

So why don't you print those sheets out and wank over them. Even better,
print it on sandpaper, spray it with vinegar, and shove it up your arse,
remove and repeat.

And most of all, do not tell me what to do. I do not take orders from my
father, and I sure as fuck do not take orders from a retarded fucking
foreigner off usenet whose grasp on English is weaker than his grasp on
reality. As I said before, when you can speak the language, maybe then you
can potificate in it. Until then, shut the fuck up.

Bob

Don't hold back, Bob - tell him what you really think. ;)

--
VinceH

I have been accused of giving it both barrels before. I seem to have
engaged teh UBGL this time though. The intended recipient appears to have
either gone into hiding, or stuck himself to the floor due to excessive
wanking over teh numerical specifictions.

Bob

Bob knows it must be good. £200,000 is a big number.

Also posted are hyperlinks that should contain UPS numeric specs. No
hyperlink provides specs. Everyone is nothing more than subjective
claims. For example, one uses the expression "Pure Sine Wave" –
without any numbers. What kind of output is also composed of pure
sine waves? Square waves. Another expression for pure sine waves is
modified sine wave. Subjective expressions mean nothing useful.
However the naive (such as Bob) know it must be good because Belkin
would not lie - just like the £200,000 warranty that Belkin “can
reject … for any reason".

OP discussed a £40 computer grade UPS. So Bob quotes £200+ UPSes
as if same. Bob, the UPS under discussion is a computer grade UPS.
Why acting like a salesman trying to pull a fast one?

Where are those numbers that claim to "protect from surges, spikes
and lightning"? Oh. Bob was too busy posting four letter
profanity. No citation provided those numbers or make that protection
claim. But then those who post profanity also forget to read
numbers. They just know. Something about being a demagogue.

Let's see. It does say surge protection. Of course. Even plug-in
protectors claim to protect from a surge ... that typically does not
cause damage. "Surge Protection" means protection from all surges?
Or protection only from a surge that typically causes no damage? We
really don't know because Bob Smith was so busy having a meltdown and
posting profanity as to completely forget to provide any numbers OR
useful manufacturer specs.

But it says £200,000 - therefore it must be good.

Customers who love to be scammed are easily convinced by warranty
claims. Somehow Bob Smith forgot to notice: no spec numbers claim to
clean 'filthy dirty electricity'. Not one technical claim. But Bob
just knows it must clean electricity. Why? Bob is an expert:

> foreigner off usenet whose grasp on English is weaker than his grasp ...

Nothing outputs pure sine waves unless it comes from angels.
Fantasy sine waves justified by profanity? What kind of angels like
profanity? "Filthy dirty" angels whose UPS really outputs "filthy
dirty electricity". But then I would only be mocking one still did
not provide any manufacturer numeric specs.

Surge protection means it protects from a surge that does not cause
damage. That is sufficient for Bob Smith to assume it protects from
all types of surges. Wild speculation that also claims it cleans
"filthy dirty electricity". None of those manufacturer brochures
make that claim. But Bob knows it must be true.

Poor w_ refuses to understand how plug-in suppressors work. It is
explained in a guide on surges from the IEEE starting pdf page 40.
<http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/
LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf>
The explanation clearly shows why the cable wire must go through the
plug-in suppressor.

.
Nonsense.

The IEEE guide, published by a major association of electrical
engineers, says plug-in suppressors are effective. The same protection
can be included in a UPS.

--
bud--

---------------------

Not worth replying to mate - As soon as he said a pure sine wave is also a
modified sine wave AND a square wave I decided not to bother with the
ignorant twat any more.

For the record, I have bought 2 Belkin products - a wireless router and a
network card. Both were replaced under the lifetime warranty - In the case
of the network card they sent me a new one without me sending the old one
back (only a scan of my invoice was required). With the router, I had to
wrangle to get the replacement before I sent them the old one back (It was
only the plug in power adapter that had gone - I was running it off a HDD
power connector in my rig) but they sent the replacement when I promised to
send the old one back.

Bob

With basic electrical knowledge, Bob would have understood what was
posted. Never posted was a pure sine wave is a modified sine wave.
Bob only saw what he wanted to see. Posted was that a modified sine
wave and a square wave are a combination of pure sine waves. Of
course, many even learned this in secondary school math. Why does Bob
not know this?

A UPS outputting the 'filthiest dirtiest power' is outputting pure
sine waves. Is that £40 UPS cleaning power from AC mains? Of course
not - obviously not if Bob had read technical specs - and that means
numbers. Is a £40 UPS power cleaner when in battery backup mode?
Never. Power from a £40 UPS is so dirty as to be harmful to some
small electric motors.

Bob’s hyperlinks are sales brochures for the technically naïve. No
tech numbers were provided. Bob also confused a pure sine wave with
fifthly dirty power from a £40 UPS - that does nothing to clean power
AND does not claim to clean that power.

A £40 UPS simply connects the load directly to AC mains. Nothing
inside that UPS does any electricity 'cleaning'. Nothing claim it
does.

> news:caa2fcdd-c7e8-44b7...@v56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 15, 5:51 pm, "Bob Smith" <bob@nospamplease> wrote:
>> Why w_tom not know battery buffers input and can only give smooth flat DC
>> output? Does he also refute that capacitors act like capacitors?
>
> <snip Eastern European accented rantings>
>
> Still waiting for the proof that UPS gives dirty power output.
> <tomcruise>Show me the data sheet!</tomcruise>
>
> A cheap UPS would probably not have the relay on cost grounds, and would
> connect through the AC/DC/AC circuit to save the few pence on the relay
> and
> switch over circuit. To hell with the inefficiency heat of the constant
> AC/DC/AC conversion, it would be a cheaper design. When running off
> battery power, the output of the batteries is a flat DC output, so where
> would the noise be coming from?
>
> There is no such thing as battery buffers - I said the battery buffers the
> output. Maybe if English was your first language, you would be qualified
> to
> pontificate in it.

I have no knowledge or experience of w_tom. What he has posted in this
thread is entirely accurate. I got a distinction in the Radio Amateurs
Examination, long ago, so I know a bit about electronics.

A cheap UPS, when the mains are supplying the power, just connects the
computer to the mains power using a relay. It may have rudimentary surge
limiting circuits.

When the mains power fails, it connects the battery to an inverter, which
turns the battery voltage into 220 volts (might be 110 volts, PCs can handle
that these days). It uses the relay to disconnect the computer from the
dead mains and connect it to the inverter.

Mains electricity is a pure sine wave, a gentle curve of a single frequency.
The inverter puts out a ghastly square wave type thing which contains just
about any frequency you can imagine.

To summarise, when the mains is on, it is just passed through unchanged.
When the mains fails, a nasty but effective imitation of mains is supplied
for a few minutes.

No one can be wrong all the time. w_tom understands UPS.

By the way, an expensive UPS supplies the computer from battery power all
the time. The computer is not directly connected to the mains in that case.

Arthur Buse.

W_tom knows better than Belkin - Belkin say at least one range of their UPS
give a "pure sine wave" output.

W_tom knows that a pure sine wave is a marketing lie, and that sine wave =
square wave = modified sine wave:

W_tom expects a sine wave to be expressed numerically, and that hyperlinks
cannot contain numeric specifications:

And that sine waves do not exist:

According to him, even a spinny thing inside a magnetic field cannot make
pure sine waves. Unless the spinny thing is extracted from angels of
course. Even though sine wave = square wave = modified sine wave.

And wants numeric specifications on lightning:

What does he want? The number of lightning strikes, the voltage, or the
amps of the lightning strikes? Where are you going to get a larger surge
than lightning?

And throughout all his posts, w_tom has not provided one reference to back
up his claims.

Bob

Nobody but Bob Smith said that. Since Bob Smith did not even learn
the relevant math, then Bob Smith quickly jumps to assumptions.
Belkin's sales brochure (that is not a numeric specification sheet) is
written for the technically naive. Even AC mains that are so much
'cleaner' is not a pure sine wave. Every sine wave is measured by
numbers. And every sine wave, square wave, and spike is composed of
"pure sine waves". Bob Smith still does not grasp this fundamental
principle that is even taught in high school math.

If it outputs square waves, then the sales brochure can call that an
output composed of "pure sine waves". Bob Smith is encouraged to
learn the relevant math. Unfortunately, many like Bob are experts
without first learning science or math.

That UPS does typically outputs square waves. Electricity so dirty
as to be harmful to some small electric motors and power strip
protectors. Bob Smith knows this cannot be true because a subjective
phrase in a sales brochure makes him an expert.

This is really a discusson about the so many who are experts without
first learning the science or reading manufacturer spec sheets. Bob
Smith still has not provided a single numeric specification that
supports his assumptions. And then gets insulting about it. That is
the bottom line here. A majority who never bothered to first obtain
facts somehow know a UPS magically 'cleans' electricity. Arthur Buse
has posted how computer grade UPSes actually work. But then he
learned the technology before posting. Therefore he is also in the
minority here.

For same reasons, a majority also knew Saddam had WMDs when even the
numbers (and an informed minority) said otherwise. A demand for
knowledge by first learning facts and numbers is why this poster is so
hated by many such as Bob Smith.

That 40 quid UPS does not claim to provide 'cleaner' power.

[snip]

Block war, anyone?

:-)

--
Steveski