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Colosseum Article; Comments By Archaeologist In Charge of Colosseum?

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Poetic Justice

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May 30, 2010, 2:30:11 PM5/30/10
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Some odd comments by her unless she was misquoted by ABC? Or I have it
wrong? Regards, Walter

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/rome-colosseum-underground-areas-open/story?id=10760310
OR http://tinyurl.com/38leysd
[Snipped from Page 2]


"In its early days the Colosseum was even flooded with water and naval
battles were re-enacted for an excited public, according to Rosella Rea,
the archeologist in charge of the monument.

She says the long vaulted galleries you see underground housed the
ships.
The water that was used for the naval battles -- and, more gruesomely,
to wash away the blood and dirt of battle -- came from an underground
stream that was channeled by the Romans and still flows through the
site.


Colosseum shows, with as many as 80,000 spectators, were all-day events
featuring hunts and battles, and were offered free to the people by the
Roman emperor.

At the end of the day, the emperor would distribute the meat from the
dead animals to the public according to precise rules, says Rea.
The emperor himself would always get the elephant tusks, the senators
and officials the choice meats, and the leftovers were left for the
plebes.

[Snip]

Also being opened to visitors this summer is a section of the third
tier of the amphitheater, the highest section still standing.
It offers a different perspective on the cavea, or pit of the arena, as
well as spectacular views over the Palatine and the Forum all the way
down to Piazza Venezia, where, with construction materials quarried for
the Colosseum, the Palazzo Venezia was built in the 15th century.


This is where the middle class sat, says Rea, with the emperors and
senators in the best ground-level seats and the plebeians in the peanut
gallery on top.

On the way to the third level visitors will be able to admire the only
original vaulted passageway leading to the seats that is still
standing".

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>"In its early days the Colosseum was even
>flooded with water and naval battles were
>re-enacted for an excited public,
>according to Rosella Rea [typo it's
>Rossella] , the archeologist in charge of
>the monument".

Ok, very possibly done under Titus before the Hypogeum?


>"She says the long vaulted galleries you
>see underground housed the ships".


So she believes the Arena was flooded *after* the hypogeum was dug and
that ships were stored down there???

I'm assuming she's talking about the long galleries in the center arena
part of the hypogeum where there were long hinged wooden arena floor
sections that would create an inclined ramp from the hypogeum to the
arena for scenery, large animals, men, horses(?) etc?]


>"The water that was used for the naval
>battles -- and, more gruesomely, to wash
>away the blood and dirt of battle -- came
>from an underground stream that was
>channeled by the Romans and still flows
>through the site".

She believes that they pumped the water UP from the cloaca beneath the
Colosseum???

  Nero had already provided a branch off the Aqua Claudia for his
Nymphaeum and his artificial lake*** which very likely was later used to
provide water to the Colosseum (drinking, fountains, cooling, flushing
latrines or flooding the Arena?).

>[Snip]


>"At the end of the day, the emperor would
>distribute the meat from the dead animals
>to the public according to precise rules,
>says Rea. The emperor himself would
>always get the elephant tusks, the
>senators and officials the choice meats,
>and the leftovers were left for the plebes".


I'm just curious; I know they had a meat lottery for the Plebes and it
would be logical for the Emperor to get the tusks when an elephant was
killed but were the Senators and officials also in on the meat
distribution?

Also did they ever cut-back or eliminate killing elephants because the
mob liked them (noble creatures)?
I recall the story of a dying elephant on the ground lifting his trunk
up like a Gladiator asking for mercy that moved the Mob's hearts?

>[Snip]

>"This is where the middle class sat, says
>Rea, with the emperors and senators in
>the best ground-level seats and the
>plebeians in the peanut gallery on top".

Senators, *Knights*, Plebeians (3rd level) with the "peanut gallery on
top" (4th level with wooden seats) for the women, poor and slaves?
I believe there were some subdivisions in some Levels also?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

***http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2006/07/rome-ruins/bennett-text


"Some ancient writers claimed the building was deliberately flooded for
mock naval battles.
But there was no evidence of the large waterworks needed to bring in
the water.
Then, in October 2003, Ranieri, an archaeologist and speleologist with
the superintendency of archaeology, made a startling discovery. Below
the simple drains (and predating the Colosseum) were large conduits
constructed by Emperor Nero to charge an artificial lake in his gardens.
The conduits had obviously been reused by the architects of the
Colosseum, most likely to pipe quantities of water in and out. For the
first few years of its history, at least, the Colosseum, like many other
theaters, was capable of being flooded"

Christopher Ingham

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May 31, 2010, 2:14:15 AM5/31/10
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On May 30, 2:30 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
>
> >"In its early days the Colosseum was even
> >flooded with water and naval battles were
> >re-enacted for an excited public,
> >according to Rosella Rea [typo it's
> >Rossella] , the archeologist in charge of
> >the monument".
>
>  Ok, very possibly done under Titus before the Hypogeum?
>
That is widely assumed to be the case, though there are also many who
are skeptical. Mock sea battles (_naumachiae_) are recorded by Martial
and Cassius Dio as having occurred in the Colosseum as part of the 100-
day inauguration festivities of the amphitheater given by Titus.

Martial says, "If you are here from distant land, a late spectator for
whom this was the first day of the sacred show, let not the naval
warfare deceive you with its ships, and the water like to a sea: here
but lately was land. You don't believe it? Watch while the waters
weary Mars. But a short while hence you will be saying: 'Here but
lately was sea'" [_Spect._27; trans. Shackleton Bailey].

And Dio says, "Titus had suddenly filled this same theatre [the
Colosseum] with water, and [..] he also brought in people on ships;
they engaged in a naval battle there representing Corcyra versus
Corinth" [66.25; trans Coleman].

Martial, though, does not actually specify the venue of the naval
battle: it might have been the Colosseum, or it could have the
Naumachia Augusti, the artificial lake which Augustus built for naval
shows in the Transtiberim region of the city. [See A. M. Liberati,
Naumachia Augusti," in_LTUR_3 (1996), 337.] Dio, writing a century and
a half after Martial, could have been confused.

I mention this because the arena of the Colosseum, while large, does
not have an area adequate enough to accommodate the manoeuvring of
oared ships (miniaturized vessels would have to have been employed);
and the hypogeum (the subterranean area of the arena) was not
watertight.

Yet recent archaeological investigations of the so-called containment
wall ("il cosiddetto muro di contenimento") of the arena's
substructures in its initial phase (waterproof plaster, etc.) indicate
that aquatic shows may have been possible. [See Heinz-Jürgen Beste, in
Rossella Rea, Heinz-Jürgen Beste, Patrizia Campagna, and Franca Del
Vecchio, "Sotterranei del Colosseo: Ricerca preliminare al progetto di
ricostruzione del piano dell'arena."_Mitteilungen des Deutschen
Archäologischen Instituts, Römische Abteilung_107 (2000):333.] If so,
it was likely a one-time occurrence.

See also Kathleen M.Coleman,_M. Valerii Martialis Liber
spectacvlorvm_(New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 2006), xlvi-l; and
Katherine E.Welch,_The Roman amphitheatre_(New York: Cambridge Univ.
Press, 2007), 318n.66.

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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May 31, 2010, 10:45:03 AM5/31/10
to
Christopher Ingham wrote;

>I mention this because the arena of the
>Colosseum, while large, does not have an
>area adequate enough to accommodate
>the manoeuvring of oared ships
>(miniaturized vessels would have to have
>been employed);

Yes, definitely smaller scaled ships would only work in that area and
flat-bottomed so they wouldn't require much depth.
I recall reading that if the Colosseum was flooded they could get
almost 1m of depth in the arena.

I'd assume they would be fragile if they were built to ram each other?

The men of course are expendable (POWs, slaves, criminals) and their
deaths would make this novelty more enjoyable to the spectators.

Hand to hand combat when the ships came together and if rammed and sunk
the men in the water would be sitting ducks for the rowed ships to
attack?

>and the hypogeum (the subterranean area
>of the arena) was not watertight.

Even if it was the major problem would be sealing-off stairs going to
groundlevel as the water level is ~1m higher.
Plus any tunnels although I don't know if they were a later addition
than in this Titus/Domitian time period?

>Yet recent archaeological investigations of
>the so-called containment wall ("il
>cosiddetto muro di contenimento") of the
>arena's substructures in its initial phase
>(waterproof plaster, etc.) indicate that
>aquatic shows may have been possible.

>[Snip references]

Thanks, another piece for the pro-flooding theory:).

>If so, it was likely a one-time occurrence.

Most likely, a nice novelty but probably requiring to much effort to
repeat.

A question if I may?
How did the Colosseum get its fresh water from the Aqua Claudia?
Are there any remains of an aboveground aqueduct? Or was it from
underground conduits? Regards, Walter

..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...


Christopher Ingham

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May 31, 2010, 8:25:27 PM5/31/10
to
On May 31, 10:45 am, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
>
> >I mention this because the arena of the
> >Colosseum, while large, does not have an
> >area adequate enough to accommodate
> >the manoeuvring of oared ships
> >(miniaturized vessels would have to have
> >been employed);
>
>  Yes, definitely smaller scaled ships would only work in that area and
> flat-bottomed so they wouldn't require much depth.
>  I recall reading that if the Colosseum was flooded they could get
> almost 1m of depth in the arena.
>
K. M. Coleman estimates that a_stagnum_used for naval displays should
have a minimum depth of 1.7 m in order to accommodate the draft of
fighting vessels (1.2 m) and the dip of oars and enable those who fall
overboard to drown ("Launching into History: Aquatic displays in the
early empire,"_Journal of Roman Studies_83, 1993, 5).

>
>  I'd assume they would be fragile if they were built to ram each other?
>
The arena, measuring 79 x 47 m on its axes, would probably have been
too small to allow vessels to attain high speeds and simultaneously
maneuver about. Augustus' naumachia in Trastevere was 536 x 357 m
(_Res gestae_23).

>
>  The men of course are expendable (POWs, slaves, criminals) and their
> deaths would make this novelty more enjoyable to the spectators.
>
>  Hand to hand combat when the ships came together and if rammed and sunk
> the men in the water would be sitting ducks for the rowed ships to
> attack?  
>
> >and the hypogeum (the subterranean area
> >of the arena) was not watertight.
>
>  Even if it was the major problem would be sealing-off stairs going to
> groundlevel as the water level is ~1m higher.
>  Plus any tunnels although I don't know if they were a later addition
> than in this Titus/Domitian time period?
>
The building history of the substructures is complicated and still not
fully understood; although recent investigations are rectifying this.
Alterations and repairs were continually made to the various
structures, pipes, and drains associated with the arena over a 400-
year period, beginning almost immediately after the amphitheater
opened for business.

>
>  A question if I may?
>  How did the Colosseum get its fresh water from the Aqua Claudia?
>  Are there any remains of an aboveground aqueduct? Or was it from
> underground conduits?

A series of pipes located at the SE edge of the arena and having a NW
to SE direction conveyed water presumably from the Neronian branch of
the Aqua Claudia, the terminal reservoir of which, along with those of
two other aqueducts, was located adjacent to the podium of the Temple
of Claudius, a short distance from the amphitheater. Whether the
conduit from the reservoir to the amphitheater was carried on arcades
or was underground is not presently known.

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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Jun 1, 2010, 6:24:42 PM6/1/10
to
>K. M. Coleman estimates that
>a_stagnum_used for naval displays should
>have a minimum depth of 1.7 m in order
>to accommodate the draft of fighting
>vessels (1.2 m) and the dip of oars and
>enable those who fall overboard to drown
>("Launching into History: Aquatic displays
>in the early empire,"_Journal of Roman
>Studies_83, 1993, 5).


>[I'd assume they would be fragile if they

>were built to ram each other?]

Christopher Ingham wrote;

>The arena, measuring 79 x 47 m on its
>axes, would probably have been too small
>to allow vessels to attain high speeds and
>simultaneously maneuver about.
>Augustus' naumachia in Trastevere was
>536 x 357 m (_Res gestae_23).

Christopher, when it comes to getting the facts you can't be beat, I'm
still amazed of all the info you found on my 'EROS PRIM' graffito last
year:).

But on something like this possible Colosseum naumachia ya gotta let
your imagination take over:).

Figure the crowd is expecting to see a typical sea battle as advertised
but on a much smaller scale.

The few ships will most likely be accurate but scaled-down drastically.

I believe the Mob would want to see ships rammed and sunk even though
it's waist-chest high water it's not likely they are going to let the
survivors 'hop out of the pool':).

And the Mob wants death, so men fighting for their lives as the enemy
ships try to run them over or stab them as they pass by might be very
entertaining for the Mob.
Also if an enemy ship was also sunk hand to hand fighting in the water
might delight the Mob.

Flat-bottomed boats are very stable so more men could be on the crew vs
a 'V' bottom boat.
If the planks below the waterline were thin without much support, it
wouldn't take much for a slow ship's rostrum to ram thru.

BUT in hindsight what would happen if the handful of ships (4, 6, 8..)
were sunk in the 1st 45min of battle?
You now have a arena full of water with sunk ships in it.
OK Folks, thanks for coming and have a nice day:)!

I'd guess it would have to be boarding with hand to hand combat AND
with the ability to replace crews when they were killed off so the
battle could rage on and on.

Passing-by attacks, might be limited?
You don't want to give these men bows & arrows, spears, etc when the
Emperor, Vestals and Senators are sitting in the front rows.

Later when the pool is red and the bodies are wall to wall the Emperor
might get a big round of applause.

*OR* It was a complete fiasco and never attempted again?

>A series of pipes located at the SE edge
>of the arena and having a NW to SE
>direction conveyed water presumably from
>the Neronian branch of the Aqua Claudia,
>the terminal reservoir of which, along with
>those of two other aqueducts, was located
>adjacent to the podium of the Temple of
>Claudius, a short distance from the
>amphitheater.

Thanks for the info about the pipes esp the direction as it fits nicely
with the reservoir's reported location in the 16C.

Nero feed his lake where the Colosseum now stands by underground pipes
from that same reservoir/tank, so Vespasian's engineers might logically
do the same?



>Whether the conduit from the reservoir to
>the amphitheater was carried on arcades
>or was underground is not presently
>known.

No remains above ground could be explained easily.
But the arcade's footprints in the pavement surrounding the Colosseum
I'd assume would leave evidence?
Like 2-3 square areas in a row without paving stones but with concrete
foundations in there place?

Thanks Again. Regards, Walter

Christopher Ingham

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Jun 2, 2010, 1:03:10 PM6/2/10
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On Jun 1, 6:24 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
>
>  But on something like this possible Colosseum naumachia ya gotta let
> your imagination take over:).
>
>  Figure the crowd is expecting to see a typical sea battle as advertised
> but on a much smaller scale.
>
>  The few ships will most likely be accurate but scaled-down drastically.
>
Right. It's a matter of scale.

>
>  I believe the Mob would want to see ships rammed and sunk even though
> it's waist-chest high water it's not likely they are going to let the
> survivors 'hop out of the pool':).
>
We're assuming a depth here based on the level of the arena floor as
it existed after the hypogeum was built, presumably by Domitian or one
of his immediate successors. The initial-phase arena without the
subterranean structures conceivably could have accommodated a deeper
pool of water.
> <snip>

>  Thanks for the info about the pipes esp the direction as it fits nicely
> with the reservoir's reported location in the 16C.
>
The_castellum_of the Aqua Claudia was almost intact then, and appears
in the 16th-century city views of Ligorio, L. Fauno, Marliano,
Cartaro, and Du Pérac. The reservoir is also shown on fragments 4a-b
of the Severan Marble Plan in an irregular area labelled AQVE/DVCTI/
VM, securely located immediately south of the platform of the Temple
of Claudius. Pier L. Tucci's recent investigations have shown that at
least two castella supplied by three aqueducts (Marcia, Julia,
Claudia) were located here ("Ideology and technology in Rome's water
supply:_Castella_, the toponym AQVEDVCTIVM, and supply to the Palatine
and Caelian hills,"_Journal of Roman Archaeology_19 (2006):94-120).

>
>  Nero feed his lake where the Colosseum now stands by underground pipes
> from that same reservoir/tank, so Vespasian's engineers might logically
> do the same?
>
That's the common assumption. The same reservoir, btw, provided the
water to the enormous nymphaeum -- the fountain in the form of a
cascading waterfall -- on the north face of the platform of Claudius'
temple which Nero installed to overlook the stagnum of his Domus
Aurea. The Colosseum, of course, was erected on the site of the
stagnum.

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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Jun 3, 2010, 6:22:15 PM6/3/10
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Christopher Ingham wrote;

>We're assuming a depth here based on
>the level of the arena floor as it existed
>after the hypogeum was built, presumably
>by Domitian or one of his immediate
>successors.

I would think the arena floor was always at that level for a few
reasons.

Mainly because you have the 2 wide gates on the long axis into the
arena, if you lower the floor you would have to ramp them down into the
arena.

A lower floor would increase blind-spots for the spectators esp for the
gladiator and beast combats.

And you would lose the lip around the edge of the arena that I
believe(?) was likely used to support the wooden floor plank ends?


>The initial-phase arena without the
>subterranean structures conceivably could
>have accommodated a deeper pool of
>water.

I think that is a *very good* possibility.

I was thinking about the 12m/40ft foundation donut.

Either it was put in after the lake was drained and the area surrounding
the Colosseum was then filled-in.
If so, why fill-in the arena area completely (just partially 30%) when
you know in the very near future the hypogeum is going to be built, just
floor the arena over and brace it with temporary wooden up-rights?

Or if that was the groundlevel it would be next to impossible to leave
the soil in the arena area untouched and dig down 12m, plank the walls
and pour the concrete donut.

Either way the engineers would need a large completely open hole to
build this 12m high donut.

So very likely there was a void under the wooden floor of the arena in
the opening days and when removed would make a very deep pool.

I forgot that they also claimed of trained bulls and horses swimming
around so that my claim of ~1m of water in the arena is shot to hell
because they could just walk around:-).
And it's now deep enough for the defeated crews to drown for the Mob's
delight.

More 'what-if's' :-).
Rammed wooden ships will still float and if the water level was level
with the 2 gates.
Just rope them, pull them over to one of the gates and haul them out of
the arena.
The other gate could roll-in new ships for the next battle scene?

If these sea battles did take place I wonder if they were done in the
last days (floor removed, flooded, etc) and then the Colosseum was then
closed until the hypogeum was completed?

Christopher Ingham

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Jun 4, 2010, 3:23:48 AM6/4/10
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On Jun 3, 6:22 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
>
> >We're assuming a depth here based on
> >the level of the arena floor as it existed
> >after the hypogeum was built, presumably
> >by Domitian or one of his immediate
> >successors.
>
>  I would think the arena floor was always at that level for a few
> reasons.
>
My wording was inaccurate. The arena floor was at the same altitude
before and after the addition of the hypogeum. I should have said that
the pool initially would not necessarily have been restricted to a one-
meter depth because the pre-hypogeum arena floor would not have had to
determine its lower limit.
Considering the load which the floor would have to have sustained
(e.g., of herds of elephants and rhinoceroses), a void beneath it
would have been unfeasible. Structurally and in terms of statics,
though, the arena and the cavea are independent of each other, as you
conjectured. Whereas the bulk of the amphitheater rests on a
foundation of concrete sunk to a considerable depth, the foundation of
the underground chambers of the arena is "sunk in water and rests on
ground made uneven by earlier deposits of dirt and debris, [ ... and]
at times during the foundation's construction, walls dating to
previous eras were found and cut to make room for new structures [of
the hypogeum]" (Rossella Rea, "The underground chambers," in Ada
Gabucci, ed.,_The Colosseum_(Los Angeles: J. Paul Getty Museum, 2000),
48).

Rea, the leading authority on the Colosseum for the last few decades,
notes the references in the sources to naumachia being held there, and
says [my translation], " the diminished dimensions of the arena seem
to preclude its use in such a way"; but she does entertain the
possibility that in the planning stages the amphitheater may have been
intended also for the staging pf aquatic shows, "considering the co-
presence [? -- "conprensenza'] of ground water and hyraulic structures
of preceding eras" ("Amphitheatrum," in Eva M. Steinby, ed.,_Lexicon
Topograhicum Urbis Romae_1 (Rome: Quasar, 1993), 34).


>
>  I forgot that they also claimed of trained bulls and horses swimming
> around so that my claim of ~1m of water in the arena is shot to hell
> because they could just walk around:-).
>  And it's now deep enough for the defeated crews to drown for the Mob's
> delight.
>
>  More 'what-if's' :-).
>  Rammed wooden ships will still float and if the water level was level
> with the 2 gates.
>  Just rope them, pull them over to one of the gates and haul them out of
> the arena.
>  The other gate could roll-in new ships for the next battle scene?
>
>  If these sea battles did take place I wonder if they were done in the
> last days (floor removed, flooded, etc) and then the Colosseum was then
> closed until the hypogeum was completed?

The city had many buildings which could accommodate
_gladiatores_and_venationes_. The Circus Maximus, Stadium Domitiani,
and Saepta Iulia, etc. are mentioned as substituting for the
amphitheater when it was under repair.

Why mock sea battles would have been displayed in the Colosseum when
there already existed in Rome the much more suitable Naumachia Augusti
(_naumachia_refers to both a building for aquatic exhibitions and the
exhibition itself) appears to have had to do with Flavian
propagandistic efforts to vilify the Julio-Claudians. Not only had the
new dynasty restored the site of the amphitheater to the public which
Nero had expropriated for his private use, but the naval battle it
staged there outdid those naumachiae which Claudius had given in the
Fucine Lake and Nero had exhibited in the Stagnum Agrippae and
presumably in the stagnum of his Golden House:

"Whatever is viewed in the Circus and the Amphitheatre, that, Caesar,
the wealth of your water has afforded you. So no more of Fucinus and
the lake of direful Nero; let this be the only sea fight known to
posterity" (Martial_Spect._34 (30; 28)).

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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Jun 4, 2010, 5:15:00 PM6/4/10
to
Christopher Ingham wrote;

>Considering the load which the floor
>would have to have sustained (e.g., of
>herds of elephants and rhinoceroses), a
>void beneath it would have been
>unfeasible.

If the void was always there and the hypogeum's concrete floor was made
at the same time as the 12m Donut it wouldn't have been that hard.

They have to support a floor ~20ft above.
A simple skeleton framework of wooden beams bridges the void,
interconnect wooden horizontal beams and lay the floor in-between the
beams.

And figure they already have the wooden planks strength worked-out
which they will later use in the long ramps and trapdoors. And they are
likely criss-crossed # for added strength.

A simple wooden framework like this will support a stream locomotive
plus the other cars:).
http://tinyurl.com/26kfxev

I believe they had to build the Donut in an open hole so they could set
the forms (upright beams and horizonal planks).
They could also have poured the bottom of the Donut in the ground water
itself but only as much as they could set the forms into.

But I just can't imagine the Romans refilling-in the donut-hole with
dirt just to make a temporary arena that in a decade of so they will
have to dug it out again by hand and cart away (cost, time, labor)?
If they can pivot a wooden amphitheater, an arena floor 20ft up would
be a piece of cake:).

>Rea, the leading authority on the
>Colosseum for the last few decades,
>notes the references in the sources to
>naumachia being held there, and says [my
>translation], " the diminished dimensions
>of the arena seem to preclude its use in
>such a way"; but she does entertain the
>possibility that in the planning stages the
>amphitheater may have been intended
>also for the staging pf aquatic shows,

I wonder if she means that wide service tunnel that surrounds the arena
at floor level?
It is supported by arches and very possibly a later addition?
Without that tunnel platform infringing on the arena it would add at
least 4m+ all around the arena?

>"considering the co- presence [? --
>"conprensenza'] of ground water and
>hyraulic structures of preceding eras"
>("Amphitheatrum," in Eva M. Steinby,
>ed.,_Lexicon Topograhicum Urbis
>Romae_1 (Rome: Quasar, 1993), 34).

Back to the groundwater.
I wonder if the Cloaca beneath the arena which is feed by an stream was
blocked-off.
Would it be possible that the water pressure could back-up thru the
hypogeum's floor drains and flood the Donut Hole-hypogeum?
It would be a constant water feed and when the level reached the 2
Gates at arena floor level it would just dribble out of the Gates and
into the drain surrounding the Colosseum (hopefully downstream)?

And thanks for the other info in your post.
Regards, Walter

Service Tunnel remains (floor & backwall)
www.colosseumweb.org/photogalleryImages/originals/13.jpg

Christopher Ingham

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Jun 5, 2010, 7:06:51 PM6/5/10
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On Jun 4, 5:15 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
>
> >Considering the load which the floor
> >would have to have sustained (e.g., of
> >herds of elephants and rhinoceroses), a
> >void beneath it would have been
> >unfeasible.
>
>  If the void was always there and the hypogeum's concrete floor was made
> at the same time as the 12m Donut it wouldn't have been that hard.
>
>  They have to support a floor ~20ft above.
>   A simple skeleton framework of wooden beams bridges the void,
> interconnect wooden horizontal beams and lay the floor in-between the
> beams.
>
>  And figure they already have the wooden planks strength worked-out
> which they will later use in the long ramps and trapdoors. And they are
> likely criss-crossed # for added strength.
>
> A simple wooden framework like this will support a stream locomotive
> plus the other cars:).http://tinyurl.com/26kfxev

>
>  I believe they had to build the Donut in an open hole so they could set
> the forms (upright beams and horizonal planks).
>  They could also have poured the bottom of the Donut in the ground water
> itself but only as much as they could set the forms into.
>
>  But I just can't imagine the Romans refilling-in the donut-hole with
> dirt just to make a temporary arena that in a decade of so they will
> have to dug it out again by hand and cart away (cost, time, labor)?
>  If they can pivot a wooden amphitheater, an arena floor 20ft up would
> be a piece of cake:).
>
What you suggest is possible, but no evidence has come to light yet
one way or the other.

>
> >Rea, the leading authority on the
> >Colosseum for the last few decades,
> >notes the references in the sources to
> >naumachia being held there, and says [my
> >translation], " the diminished dimensions
> >of the arena seem to preclude its use in
> >such a way"; but she does entertain the
> >possibility that in the planning stages the
> >amphitheater may have been intended
> >also for the staging pf aquatic shows,
>
> I wonder if she means that wide service tunnel that surrounds the arena
> at floor level?
>  It is supported by arches and very possibly a later addition?
>  Without that tunnel platform infringing on the arena it would add at
> least 4m+ all around the arena?
>
She uses the word "ridotto" ("reduced," "diminished," "dimunuitive")
in comparing the area of the arena with those of naumachiae.
(Confusion is frequently an unintended consequence of using quotations
out of context.) If you're referring to the platform of the podium of
the cavea, this was planned from the start: the senators, Vestals, and
other very high officials sat here on portable chairs.

>
> >"considering the co- presence [? --
> >"conprensenza'] of ground water and
> >hyraulic structures of preceding eras"
> >("Amphitheatrum," in Eva M. Steinby,
> >ed.,_Lexicon Topograhicum Urbis
> >Romae_1 (Rome: Quasar, 1993), 34).
>
>  Back to the groundwater.
>  I wonder if the Cloaca beneath the arena which is feed by an stream was
> blocked-off.
>  Would it be possible that the water pressure could back-up thru the
> hypogeum's floor drains and flood the Donut Hole-hypogeum?
>  It would be a constant water feed and when the level reached the 2
> Gates at arena floor level it would just dribble out of the Gates and
> into the drain surrounding the Colosseum (hopefully downstream)?
>
The low-lying site of the Colosseum was originally the tail end of a
stream bed, where water after heavy rains would collect into a
temporary marsh, until a cloaca was built to connect with the drainage
system in the Vallis Murcia (site of the Circus). The Colosseum's
drain's tied in to this preexistent cloaca. Newer pipes were
occasionally installed as older ones become permanently blocked up
from debris from the arena. The only ways the arena could be flooded
by this system would be by sewage backup or extraordinary flooding of
the Tiber (the water of which would arrive via the Vallis Murcia).

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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Jun 6, 2010, 4:04:48 PM6/6/10
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Christopher Ingham wrote;

>What you suggest is possible [re; arena
>floor wooden vs filled-in], but no evidence


>has come to light yet one way or the
>other.

True:). I've worked all types of construction and the 1 thing I am
certain about is that arena had some type of floor to fill the deep void
even if it was just dirt fill.
The arena *area* would be far too valuable to waste during
construction.
It would be needed for storage of materials, set-ups, finish work, easy
communications, etc, etc.
If not all that would all have to be done outside (alongside the
exterior crew's materials, equipment and workers) and then carried in
and with the possiblity of 4 seperate teams working at the same
time...Chaos.

>She uses the word "ridotto" ("reduced,"
>"diminished," "dimunuitive") in comparing
>the area of the arena with those of
>naumachiae. (Confusion is frequently an
>unintended consequence of using
>quotations out of context.)

I get her meaning, the arena was larger when and if they had a
naumachiae there and smaller later on:).
By just adding that 'service tunnel' it shrunk the arena's area but
possibly it was even larger during the sea battles (see below).

>If you're referring to the platform of the
>podium of the cavea, this was planned
>from the start: the senators, Vestals, and
>other very high officials sat here on
>portable chairs.

No, what I was referring to is often called the 'Service Tunnel' but
now I'm adding that 1st tier platform into the mix:).

http://tinyurl.com/2fml2jj

'Service Tunnel (passageway)'; On the right of the photo see the green
area and then the brick structures with a niche in them.
That area was once a covered passageway that surrounded the arena
except at the 2 gates and possiby at the Emperor and Vestal's boxes on
the short axis.

Beneath the green area notice the supporting arches.
If we were to re-floor it today like it was last used, the arena
flooring would impose maybe 25% on that green area due to that tunnel.

This is the arena (|) and this is the area occupied by the hypogeum
((|)) (not to scale of course:).

If we were to walk thru one of those supporting arches into that area
below we know that it contained brick cages/cells? on the back wall.
And the back wall of those cages was the brickfaced wall of the Donut.

The hypogeum begins at the Donut's wall, the question is how far back
is it?

Relying on memory of being there (sadly not in the hypogeum) I'm pretty
certain it goes back farther than just beneath that service tunnel?
Because I would have been able to see cages/cells if the recess was
that short also I would have photographed them with my telephoto lens
for certain.

I think it is possible that the arches and backwall cells supported the
1st tier of seating?

This tier would be the flat podium (likely widely stepped) where the
Senators sat (in photo from the niched structures over to the arched 2nd
tier).
With nothing above this tier it would be no problem to support with
just arches and walls built on the hypogeum's floor, no need of the
Donut's foundation for support.

Sorry to be long-winded:) but what we have now is a 'chicken or egg'
problem.

If the hypogeum *does* extend under this 1st Senator's tier but the
hypogeum isn't build until after the 1st or 2nd season of the
inauguration Games (upper tier building is still going on at this time).
What we would have is a *much larger* arena where the 2nd tier is now
the 1st tier but this is only temporary.
Build the hypogeum and then put in the 1st tier and the 2 VIP boxes and
the Colosseum is finished?

Do you have any detailed plans of the hypogeum?
I would love to know the exact distance from those support arches or
niched structures (in photo) to the wall of the inner donut, that would
tell us *if* or *how far* the hypogeum extends under the 1st tier.

>The low-lying site of the Colosseum was
>originally the tail end of a stream bed,
>where water after heavy rains would
>collect into a temporary marsh, until a
>cloaca was built to connect with the
>drainage system in the Vallis Murcia (site

>of the Circus).The Colosseum's drain's >tied in to this
>preexistent cloaca.

That marsh was feed I believe by a fresh water stream which still runs
today, you can see it in the lower excavation of San Clemente.
That stream is one R. Rea believes was used to flood the Colosseum.

>Newer pipes were occasionally installed
>as older ones become permanently
>blocked up from debris from the arena.

>The only ways the arena could be flooded
>by this system would be by sewage
>backup or extraordinary flooding of the
>Tiber (the water of which would arrive via
>the Vallis Murcia).

My point was; The marsh is feed by a fresh water stream just like the
Forum marsh was.
Most likely a canal was 1st used to drain this marsh to reclaim the
land and later an underground cloaca like the Forum.

Block the cloaca *just after* the Colosseum's drain enter it and allow
the fresh water stream's pressure to back-up into the Colosseum's
drains.

I don't believe that ever happened or that it was even possible to do.

But that was the only logical explaination I could see based on R.
Rea's claim that that underground stream was used to
flood the Colosseum?
Regards, Walter

Christopher Ingham

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Jun 7, 2010, 1:29:58 AM6/7/10
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On Jun 6, 4:04 pm, paradisel...@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:
> Christopher Ingham wrote;
>
> >What you suggest is possible [re; arena
> >floor wooden vs filled-in], but no evidence
> >has come to light yet one way or the
> >other.
>
> True:). I've worked all types of construction and the 1 thing I am
> certain about is that arena had some type of floor to fill the deep void
> even if it was just dirt fill.
>  The arena *area* would be far too valuable to waste during
> construction.
>  It would be needed for storage of materials, set-ups, finish work, easy
> communications, etc, etc.
>  If not all that would all have to be done outside (alongside the
> exterior crew's materials, equipment and workers) and then carried in
> and with the possiblity of 4 seperate teams working at the same
> time...Chaos.
>
You're probably right. I see that I overlooked in the H.-J. Beste
article I previously cited (_RM_107 (2000):311-39) the mention of the
discovery of evidence of a removable wooden floor in the first phase
of the arena, as well as traces of a network of wooden posts and beams
beneath the level of the floor; all of which easily could have been
disassembled and reassembled as needed. The architecture of these
substructures (and also of the amphitheater itself) would doubtless
have been modelled on precursors from the immediately preceding era,
when only temporary wooden entertainment buildings were allowed. (See
also H.-J. Beste, "I sotterranei del Colosseo: Impianto,
trasformazioni i funzionamento," in A. La Regina, ed.,_Sangue e
arena_, exhibition catalog (Milan: Electa, 2001), 277-99.)
I'm not sure that I'm following you. The service tunnel doesn't affect
the arena's surface, according to these two up-to-date reconstructions
(these may help also to answer some of your other questions):
http://books.google.com/books?id=zqphhOuZfBYC&pg=PA137 [bottom of the
page]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.techrepublic.com.com/gallery/92434-500-375.jpg&imgrefurl=http://content.techrepublic.com.com/2346-1035_11-92430-4.html&usg=__YkX-B2O8U_5ORM5uLlIrSPmTBxs=&h=375&w=500&sz=36&hl=en&start=44&sig2=uw-BJqDo-UaxyANOLwlAXQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Dnvg9dkZiP--aM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhypogeum%26start%3D40%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4HPIB_en___US216%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=IgkMTNbAN4OMMYbfubUE


>
>  Build the hypogeum and then put in the 1st tier and the 2 VIP boxes and
> the Colosseum is finished?
>

The first tier is integral to the structure of the cavea as a whole,
and buttresses the second tier.


>
>  Do you have any detailed plans of the hypogeum?
>  I would love to know the exact distance from those support arches or
> niched structures (in photo) to the wall of the inner donut, that would
> tell us *if* or *how far* the hypogeum extends under the 1st tier.
>

See the first link above.

The niched structures are thought by some to have been segments of
shafts for elevators (for bringing animals to the surface).

L. Lombardi, a hydraulic geologist, says that_unintended_flooding of
the arena would occur when the Tiber had particularly nasty surges,
bringing also sewage with it. He proposes that the Neronian branch of
the Aqua Claudia was made use of for any planned flooding. ("The water
system of the Colosseum," in A. Gabucci, ed.,_The Colosseum_(Los
Angeles: J. Paul Getty Museum, 2001), 229-40. See also L. C.
Lancaster, "The Colosseum for the general public," review of_The
Colosseum_, by M. Beard and K. Hopkins,_JRA_20 (2007):457-8.) Besides,
the groundwater was lower in antiquity than it is now, so that even
Nero's stagnum would have been reliant on artificial means of supply
rather than natural aquifers (C. Panella, "La valle del Colosseo prima
del Colosseo e la Meta Sudans," in_Sangue e arena_(cited above),
49-67).

Christopher Ingham

Poetic Justice

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Jun 7, 2010, 5:40:08 PM6/7/10
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Christopher Ingham wrote;

>I'm not sure that I'm following you. The
>service tunnel doesn't affect the arena's
>surface, according to these two up-to-date
>reconstructions (these may help also to
>answer some of your other

>questions):[snip]

Sorry, I can't bring-up the 1st link with Webtv:(.
I'm just thinking of different scenarios to back-up R. Rea's claim that
the arena was larger during the inauguration Games:).

If the 'service tunnel' was a later addition, the arena's surface area
would be larger.

>The first tier is integral to the structure of
>the cavea as a whole,

Just another scenario:). *If* the hypogeum extends under the 1st tier
and the hypogeum's structures aren't built yet, then the 1st tier could
be added later, without it a larger arena during the inauguration Games
and sea battles?

The Flavians opened the Colosseum before it was completed and R. Rea
claims that a larger arena likely existed in the beginning. The *only
way* that can happen is by extending the arena's perimeter and that
means something has to not be there:-).


>and buttresses the second tier.

I would say it just butted-up against the 2nd tier.
The 1st tier is centuries long gone and the 2nd tier still stands, I
very much doubt it was needed to structurally support the 2nd tier in
ancient times?
With arches and barrel vaults I think all the weight is projected
straight down, if not the 48m high exterior wall would definitely need
buttresses.


>The niched structures are thought by
>some to have been segments of shafts for
>elevators (for bringing animals to the
>surface).

Not possible, they are just a niche in a solid structure.
"...where there were twenty four niches faced with terra-cotta walls and
floored with travertine."
'The Colosseum' Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma.

The niches are in a *service tunnel* perhaps they were used for storage
of some type?
Wild guess!:-) Are the Senator's chairs those folding X framed type?
A better view of where the service tunnel once existed and it also
shows the water channel that ran thru the tunnel.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/294wqcf

>L. Lombardi, a hydraulic geologist, says
>that_unintended_flooding of the arena
>would occur when the Tiber had
>particularly nasty surges, bringing also
>sewage with it.

No doubt. Even the Roman Forum flooded back then.
An archaelogist noticed in the 19th or early 20C that as the flood
waters receded the Basilica Julia's floor was tilted to one corner.
The builders did this so water (rain, flood, cleaning?) would drain-off
the floor.
I believe the Basilica's floor is at a higher elevation than the arena
and water seeks its own level even via a cloaca.



>He proposes that the Neronian branch of
>the Aqua Claudia was made use of for
>any planned flooding. ("The water system
>of the Colosseum," in A. Gabucci,
>ed.,_The Colosseum_(Los Angeles: J.
>Paul Getty Museum, 2001), 229-40.

I don't know but does anyone *not* believe this if the flooding was
fact?
And does anyone else besides R. Rea believe the underground stream was
used to flood the arena?

Also Thanks for the info on the arena's floor possibly being supported
by wooden structures.

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