Forte

Finding myself unable to conjur up any explanation that does not call
into question the literacy of the actors themselves, I find myself
obliged to assume that this must have been the Irish pronunciation of
the word, and that the actors, though portraying Englishmen, are, out of
deference to the memory of the Bard of Eire, using the pronunciation
that he himself must have picked up at that hotbed of Irish nationalism,
Trinity College, Dublin.

\\P. Schultz

This is one of the standard pronunciations. Have you not heard it before?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

MWCD10:
Main Entry: 1forte
Pronunciation: 'fOrt, 'fort; 2 is often 'for-"tA or for-'tA or 'for-tE
[...]
2 : one's strong point

\A\ as a in ace

usage In forte we have a word derived from French that in its "strong point"
sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have
denigrated \'for-"tA\ and \'for-tE\ because they reflect the influence of
the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \'fort\,
however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the
word le fort and would rhyme it with English for. So you can take your
choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you
choose. All are standard, however. In British English \'fo-"tA\ and \'fot\
predominate; \'for-"tA\ and \for-'tA\ are probably the most frequent
pronunciations in American English.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)

For what it's worth, I can't recall having heard any other pronunciation.

*The American Heritage Dictionary,* 4th ed., has an amusing usage note:

From
http://www.bartleby.com/61/99/F0269900.html

[quote, under entry for "forte," with pronunciation indicated by ASCII IPA]

USAGE NOTE: The word _forte,_ coming from French _fort,_ should properly be
pronounced with one syllable, like the English word _fort._ Common usage,
however, prefers the two-syllable pronunciation, /'fOr,teI/, which has been
influenced possibly by the music term _forte_ borrowed from Italian. In a
recent survey a strong majority of the Usage Panel, 74 percent, preferred
the two-syllable pronunciation. The result is a delicate situation; speakers
who are aware of the origin of the word may wish to continue to pronounce it
as one syllable but at an increasing risk of puzzling their listeners.

[end quote]

That "should properly be pronounced" comment is about as prescriptivist as
the AHD4 ever gets. It's interesting to contrast that note with the comment
in *The American Heritage Book of English Usage. A Practical and
Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English,* (C) 1996.

From
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C007/086.html

[quote]

7. Pronunciation Challenges: Confusions and Controversy

§ 86. forte

This word, meaning "strong point," from French _fort,_ meaning "strong," can
be pronounced with one syllable, like the English word _fort,_ or with two
syllables. The two-syllable pronunciation, /'fOr,teI/, is probably the most
common in American English, but some people dislike it, arguing that it
properly belongs to the music term _forte_ from Italian.

[end quote]

Oscar Wilde spoke French, but that doesn't mean that he pronounced the word
"forte" as one syllable when speaking English. It would be interesting to
see whether usage commentators were complaining about the two-syllable
pronunciation in England or Ireland in Wilde's time.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Qualification: when used in that sense.

> ... at that hotbed of Irish nationalism, Trinity College, Dublin.

.. 'at that hotbed of Irish acquiescence, indeed treason', surely?

Hmm. I've never had occasion to use the word in French (and have hardly had
the occasion to use it in English), but it appears that in French there is
also a version which is preceded by a possessive pronoun:

From the TLFi French dictionary at
http://atilf.inalf.fr/tlfv3.htm

[quote]

FORT 2, subst. masc.

[...]

3. [...] --[Précédé d'un adj. poss. renvoyant à une pers.] Ce en quoi une
personne excelle, manifeste des talents particuliers. _La diplomatie n'était
pas notre fort_ (BLANCHE, _Modèles,_ 1928, p. 227) :

[...] Son fort (...) sa véritable spécialité, c'était s'immiscer
sournoisement dans les choses que ne le regardaient pas...
COURTELINE, _Ronds-de-cuir,_ 1893, 1er tabl., p. 45.

[end quote]

[my translation]

_FORT_ 2, masculine noun

[...]

3. [...] --[Preceded by a possessive adjective referring to a person.] That
in which a person excels, demonstrates particular talents. _Diplomacy is not
our forte._ (BLANCHE, _Modèles,_ 1928, p. 227):

[...] His forte (...) his veritable specialty, was to slyly involve himself
in things which were none of his business.

[end of translation]

*The Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary* appears to have made a mess of its
entry for the English word "forte."

[quote]

forte /'fOteI/ US /fOrt/ I _n_ 1 (strong point) to be sb's ~ être le fort de
qn ; 2 Mus forte _m inv._

II _adj, adv_ forte

[end quote]

The problem, of course, is that not only do the British also say "forte" in
two syllables, everyone says it in two syllables when it is referring to the
musical term.

I just checked with the *Cambridge International Dictionary of English* at

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=forte*1+0

It has the two-syllable version for both the British and American
pronunciations, and no one-syllable version at all.

The (Australian) Macquarie Concise Dictionary at

http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/

gives the two-syllable (non-rhotic) pronunciation and notes that the
pronunciation "rhyming with _sort_ is rare in Australia and New Zealand."

_NSOED_:
forte /"f<revc>:teI, "f<revc>:ti, f<revc>:t/ , which is to
say "FORtay", "FORtee", or "fort".

AHD4:
"FORtay" or "fort".

They're probably literate enough to read modern
dictionaries, and their pronunciation is fully supported
there.

I was taught years ago to say "FORtay" for the musical term
and "fort" for a person's strong point. I don't find
support, now, for that distinction in some dictionaries I've
looked in. I might find it in some dictionary if I kept
looking, but for now I'll consider the distinction to be yet
another lost cause.

What other pronounciation is there?

That's the only one I've ever heard.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[ . . . ]

Okay, I now see that distinction in _Webster's New
International Dictionary Second Edition_, with no
alternative pronunciations.

There may be some people still who think _WNID2_ is the most
recent good dictionary published so far. But it was
published in the early 1930s, so the cause may indeed be
lost.

A perfectly common UK and Ireland pronunciation of a naturalised word.
There is a chain of hotels here called Forte, after the founder (Charles
Forte?), which is always pronounced FOR-tay (I think it's been subsumed
into a larger group now).

--
David
-
Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes.
They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.

Those who prefer the monosyllabic French-derived form (to the
more popular bisyllabic Italian one) should at least have the
decency to pronounce it with a silent 't'.

--
What are you telling us about your four for[t]s for, for goodness sake?

Well, the one is Italian and the other French. I suspect a lot of
dictionaries make _that_ distinction. Let me check the one I keep within
easy reach. Sure enough, my trusty old _American Heritage Dictionary_ (I)
has them as two separate words, with the one pronounced only as ['fOr,tEi]
("FORtay") and the other variously as [fOrt], [fort], and (lastly)
['fOr,tEi] ("fort", "fort", and "FORtay").

You say "may be"? I had thought I have been pretty clear on my opinion,
but I suppose I can't presume to hope that anyone had noticed. If I had
to cut down to four dictionaries, they would probably be Webster's Second,
NSOED[93], AHD[1], and OED (in the order of likelihood that I'd find the
answer I needed (AHD[1], NSOED[93], Webster's Second, and OED being the
practical order of reference, weighted by weight and distance from where I
sit)). If I had to cut back to three, OED is the one that would go. But
AHD[1] is certainly a good dictionary for its size, as is NSOED[93] (to a
lesser extent). Other dictionaries have their use in containing newer
words and such. Most any dictionary is better than nothing, and AHD[1]
and Webster's Second are increasingly hard to come by. I'm down to about
five copies of AHD[1] and just the one remaining copy of Webster's Second.

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>

Hardly a question of decency if you spell the word with an "e." The French
would pronounce "forte" something close to what we pronounce "fort"--and
they do, since "forte" is the feminine form of their adjective "fort."

And as hungry children used to say around 5 pm

''Mam, what's Forte?''

I'd pronounce "forte" "for-tay". The trouble I have with the word,
though, is using it as anything but a joking reference as in: "His
forte is the written gaffe." . Would you really use "forte" to
seriously point out someone's real strong points?

--
Provider of Jots, Tittles and the occasional "Oy!"
Tony Cooper aka tony_cooper213 at yahoo.com

>''Mam, what's Forte?''

Ritz biscuits.

PB

Ekdog

david56 <bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<3E0847AA...@ntlworld.com>...

And gargle the r?

It's an English word, for better or for worse, and we may spell it &
pronounce it as we please. We interchanged the spellings of the
French words "la morale" (moral of a story) & "le moral" (morale of
troops &c) when we took them into English, and we pronounce them both
differently from the French, and the French are no worse for that.

Among the competing pronunciations, IMO, the best is the same as the
English word "fort", which, after all, comes from the same French
word, and merely means "strong point" in another sense.

However, on this particular occasion, IMO, we were being silly -- to
take in the French word, and to respell it in such a way as to fool
ourselves into pronouncing it as if it were Italian. My advice, FWIW,
is to say "strong point". Everybody knows what it means & how to
pronounce it.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: I can state with complete confidence that I'll never amount :||
||: to anything. :||

[ . . . ]

It's really in a way two different words; one of them --
originally about a sword -- is from French, the other -- the
musical one -- from Italian.

A traditional usage has it that the sword one should be
pronounced "fort"; the musical one, "FORtay" or "FORtee".
But that distinction is apparently no longer respected.

In earlier discussions of "forte", the thing I found most
interesting was that "forte" has a companion word in
"foible". The forte was originally the strong part of a
sword blade, while the foible was the weak part.

And instead of "foible", say "weak point".

No matter how you pronounce "forte", someone is bound to
think you're pronouncing it wrong.

Of course it is. A momentary lapse. Sorry.

There will follow a brief intermission while I'll wash
my brain out with soap and water, or perhaps with alcohol
instead of soap.

--
Oops.

"Play the drum a little louder" - Mike Nesmith

....r

But apparently *not* literate enough to realize that an actor portraying
an upper-class Londoner of 1895 would not consult "modern dictionaries"
of the early 21st century for advice on the authentic pronunciation of
"forte."

\\P. Schultz

Now stop that. I've got an unresolved quotation or lyric
about playing the flute/fife lowly and banging the drum
slowly, or vice versa, that I'm going to have to go track
down, thanks to you.

Found it--"Bang the drum slowly, play the pipe lowly"
is the first line of the chorus of "Bang the drum
slowly", which EmmyLou Harris sings. No information
about who wrote it. What a grim little song.

Mary

"The Streets of Laredo", aka "The Cowboy's Lament", Francis Henry
Maynard, 1876.

O beat the drum slowly and play the fife lowly;
Play the Dead March as you carry me along.
Take me to the green valley and lay the sod o'er me,
For I'm a young cowboy, and I know I done wrong.

although I'm pretty sure that I learned it with what they give as the
second and third verses reversed.

(The first quote is from the Monkee's "Listen to the Band", in case
anybody's stuck.)

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The vast majority of humans have
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |more than the average number of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |legs.

kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

The lyrics are found in the song "Streets of Laredo" and shown at
http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/streets-of-laredo.shtml Note "adapted by"
since the actual song goes too far back to name an author.

You will also find a variation called "The Cowboy's Lament", but the
relevant verse is

Oh, swing the rope slowly and ring your spurs lowly,
And play the dead march as you bear me along;
Take me to the green valley, there lay the sod o'er me
'Cause I'm a poor cowboy and I know I've done wrong.

The song also goes back to the English and Irish songs "The
Unfortunate Rake" and "Locke Hospital". The "Locke Hospital" version
goes:

LOCKE HOSPITAL

As I was a-walking down by the Locke Hospital
Cold was the morning and dark was the day
I spied a young squaddie wrapped up in old linen
Wrapped up in old linen as cold as the day

Ch.: So play the drums slowly and play the fifes lowly
Sound a dead march as you carry him along
And over his coffin throw a bunch of white laurels
For he's a young soldier cut down in his prime.

Oh mother, dear mother, come sit ya down by me
Sit ya down by me and pity my sad plight
For my body is injured and sadly disordered
All by a young girl my own heart's delight

Get six of me comrades to carry my coffin
Get six of me comrades to carry me on high
And let every one hold a bunch of white roses
So no-one will notice as we pass them by

And over his headstone these words they were written
"All ye young fellows take warning from me.
Beware of the flash girls that roam through the city
For the girls of the city were the ruin of me."

In "The Unfortunate Rake" version, the lines are:

As I was a-walking down by St. James' Hospital,
I was a-walking down by there one day,
What should I spy but one of my comrades
All wrapped up in flannel though warm was the day.

I asked him what ailed him, I asked him what failed him,
I asked him the cause of all his complaint.
"It's all on account of some handsome young woman,
'Tis she that has caused me to weep and lament.

"And had she but told me before she disordered me,
Had she but told me of it in time,
I might have got pills and salts of white mercury,
But now I'm cut down in the height of my prime.

"Get six young soldiers to carry my coffin,
Six young girls to sing me a song,
And each of them carry a bunch of green laurel
So they don't smell me as they bear me along.

"Don't muffle your drums and play your fifes merrily,
Play a quick march as you carry me along,
And fire your bright muskets all over my coffin,
Saying: There goes an unfortunate lad to his home."

The American versions are a bit cleaned up if you really read the
lyrics. The cowboy was shot in the chest, but it does have the
now-ironic line "I used to go gay". Locke Hospital was a Dublin
hospital for patients with venereal disease. The unfortunate rake
also had syphilis.

There are many antecedents to the song. Maynard, according to one
source, just adapted a version of "The Unfortunate Rake" version:

(Following is a quote) "Streets of Laredo" is a genuine American folk
song. It started out as an Irish drover ballad called "Bard of
Armaugh". The immigrants who settled the Appalachians brought with
them a version called "The Unfortunate Rake", where the young man lies
dying of mercury poisoning, brought on by 18th-Century treatment for
venereal disease. The more adventurous of their descendents took it
with them to Texas, where, in 1876, Francis Henry Maynard changed the
lyrics to fit his cowboy circumstances.

There eventually were dozens of variations on what Maynard called "The
Cowboy's Lament". The thing is, they all retained a lot of baggage
from the song's days as "The Unfortunate Rake", so the narrative line
was all confused and it was littered with archaisms. (End of quote)

Keep digging, and you will find many more versions, titles. and lyric
variations. The common thing is that a young man dies after being
wronged.

Some time ago, I remember reading in rec.music,celtic that there's an
entire LP record of different versions of The Unfortunate Rake.

Nor would he have pronounced it as "forte" when speaking French. The
word acquired an extra "e" when imported from French to English. If we
can justify an extra vowel in the spelling, why not an extra vowel
in the pronunciation?

--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au

Actually, it's Lock, not Locke, and it is not a specific hospital.

'"Lock hospital" was the name given to institutions treating venereal
diseases. The original lock hospital was built in the Southwark
region of London during the 12th century, and specialized in treating
leprosy. The name was derived from the locks or rags which covered the
patients' sores. By the 18th century, leprosy was no longer present in
England and the hospital began treating patients with venereal
diseases. The Southwark Lock Hospital closed in 1760 but the name
lived on, and was used to identify the Lock Hospital in the Paddington
area which also treated venereal diseases. It sat adjacent with a
small field in between to the Paddington Workhouse, and served as its
medical facility.'

According to:
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1859map/lock_hospital_a2.html

There were many other Lock Hospitals - every garrison town in the
British Isles had one. The etymology sounds suspicious, but most
dictionaries support it.

--
Don Aitken

>And as hungry children used to say around 5 pm
>
>''Mam, what's Forte?''

Caesar adsum iam forte
Pompei aderat.

The only version I know is

"As I was out walking the streets of Laredo
I met a young cowboy all dressed up in white.
I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy.
I see by your outfit that you're a cowboy, too.
We see by our outfits that we are both cowboys.
If you buy an outfit, you'll be a cowboy, too."

Probably by the Smothers Brothers or someone similar. "Cowboy"
is pronounced "caowboy" according to my husband, but he thinks
criks are called creeks and bob wire is barbed, so I don't know
how reliable he is on this point. However, he too knows this
version.

Warning, bad joke follows.

Do you know what happens if you play a country western song backwards?
You get your job back, your dog comes back to life, your wife comes
home, and your truck starts running again.

I told you it was bad.

Mary

Ceasar sic in omnibus,
Pompei sic in at.

Dr Fuchs ass elf Eier

I think so. I believe that second line is 'dressed up in blue' - for the
rhyme scheme if for no better reason.

It certainly started life as a British song. One of the more recent versions
is a favourite of mine from Garrison Keillor's 'Songs of the Cat' CD :

As I walked out on the streets with my radio
As I walked out with my radio one day -
I saw a poor kitty cat wrapped in white linen
(It had been white linen but now it was gray)

''I see by your outfit that you are a kitty cat''
I said to this cat as it sat on the ground.
'Come sit down' he said 'and hear my sad story.
My Master has sent me to the animal pound'

' 'Twas once in the window I used to sit proudly
'Twas once on the sofa I handsomely lay
But now they have gotten a golden retriever
And now I am going to be put away'

'Let six Siameses come carry my coffin
Let six orange Persians come follow me down
Throw bunches of catnip all over my coffin
So I can get high as I lie in the ground'

'O beat the drum slowly and play the fife lowly
A Dead Cat March as you carry me along
And take my intestines to use for guitar strings
That someone can play as they sing this sad song'

I would say the CD is indispensable for those dotty about cats

Also, nowadays it's pronounced "Lock-ay".

\\P. Schultz

Fourth track of the 1962 album "The Two Sides of the Smothers
Brothers", where it's listed simply as "Laredo"...in the spoken
introduction, Dick Smothers calls it "Streets of Laredo" and mentions
that it's also known as "The Cowboy's Lament"....

Their total lack of reverence for folk-song standards has rubbed off
on me...I can't hear "Tzena, Tzena, Tzena, Tzena" without thinking of
it as the "Venezuelan Rain Dance"...and "Gilgarry Mountain" will
forever be a song about the Saint Bernards that the Eskimos keep at
the north pole....r

Score!

It was my impression that it was the other way around. Ferinstance,
Pianoforte, I have been told, is pronounced piano fort.

Not in these parts it isn't. The musical instruction f is pronounced
for-tay.

I guess we would have to recognize the Italian roots of musical notation,
not?

How about "ff"?
Does one just shout out "FORTE"?

Oh, I know what it means.

And then there is:
Main Entry: PF
Function: abbreviation
power factor, pianoforte, [Italian più forte] louder

. . .and then there are: p, and pp. I always thought of "pp" as piano,
piano (softly softly), and was a bit disappointed to hear it as pianissimo.
Or do you think "ff" really did start out as "forte, forte" (loudly,
loudly)?

Actually, I think that I pronounce "forte" as "for-tay", and if there is no
"-e" ending I pronounce it as "fort". I can always say that "forte" comes
from Italian.

More proof that the aboriginals of the Americas constitute the 10 lost
tribes of Israel.

\\\P. Schultz

Remember their rendition of "Something Caliente del Sol", with Dickie
interpreting it, to the indignation of Tom? I loved that show. Pity
LBJ objected to that song.

Speaking of such shows, "The Sonny & Cher Show" made it really hard to
believe that Sonny Bono was really a Republican in a three-piece suit.
Something about the bell-bottoms and the rabbit-fur vest, accessorized
by the beads and peace symbols, I think.

Mary "Waist-Deep In The Big Muddy"

P.S.: Here is a knowledgeable person setting a good example:

Sometimes the most difficult passages to put into English are
the deceptively simple ones. Paul Valéry, for example, recognized
the subtle problems raised by the intentional flatness of the
opening paragraph of his _Soirée avec Monsieur Teste_ and even
challenged one translator to find an appropriate equivalent for
the initial sentence -- "La bętise n'est pas mon fort." This is
the direct and admirable version by Jackison Mathews, who, I
wager, spent some time turning that paragraph over in his mind:

Stupidity is not my strong point....

-- Justin O'Brien, "From French to English"

||: When the water reaches the upper decks, follow the rats. :||

That's ok, but it would have been MUCH more elegant to translate it:

'Bętise' is not my strong point....

\\P. Schultz

There's another song about Willy McBride that uses similar
words. Although I don't know the date, it must be later
because it seems to refer to someone who died in World War 1.

Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march as they lowered you down?
Did the band play the last waltz and chorus?
Did the pipes play the Fields of the Forest?

A memorable song, even if some of the words turn out to be
unoriginal. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that
those words were of even older provenance.

The song is "The Green Fields of France", written by Eric Bogle in
1976. Bogle is a Scottish-born Australian citizen.

He wrote another very powerful anti-war song: "The Band played
Waltzing Matilda". I think that also involved some borrowing.

PB

Should that be "Did the pipes play 'Flowers of the Forest'?"

I am not familiar with the song Peter quotes, but I know that "Flowers
of the Forest" is a lament usually played on the bagpipes, especially at
military funerals. It refers to the battle of Flodden when James IV of
Scotland was defeated by Henry VIII of England, with great loss of life.

Fran

Yes.

PB

Surely 'Flowers of the Forest'.

--

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove number to reply