Question for the Chinese Cleaver Lovers...

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:49 pm

Hey..

So yesterday I dug out my CCK. It's sharp but I haven't done any major tuning like thinning or anything.

I made a kohlrabi slaw. It was fine for the cabbage, alright but nothing special on the onions and carrots but on the kohlrabi? I feared for my fingers. Let's just say drop through it wasn't.

I was expecting some adjustment vs my gyutos but not so much vs say my bunkas or nakiri.

So, quite naively and innocently may I ask, what's the love affair with these? Is it that my CCH's not one of the better cleavers? Is there some technique thing I need to learn?

I've seen the demonstrations where people just fly through ingredient with them so I'm sure it's me. What gives here?

Bob Z · Post by **Bob Z** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:13 pm

So I have to ask, is this the CCK you are using?
CCK Small Cleaver KF1303 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/cckcleaver2.html

Bensbites · Post by **Bensbites** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:55 pm

I have a thinned Richmond cleaver. Once tuned up, it cuts like a dream. As far as cck… I had one, and wasn’t using it.

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:59 pm

Bob Z wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:13 pm So I have to ask, is this the CCK you are using?
CCK Small Cleaver KF1303 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/cckcleaver2.html

It's an older version than that one if they're the same of course. The characters are engraved differently. But the measurements are just about the same.

So I'm going to say probably yes.

@Ben... Thanks. That's exactly what I'm kind of wondering.... go to the trouble of tuning it? Or is it a technique thing?

Bensbites · Post by **Bensbites** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:40 pm

Robstreperous wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:59 pm
Bob Z wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:13 pm So I have to ask, is this the CCK you are using?
CCK Small Cleaver KF1303 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/cckcleaver2.html
It's an older version than that one if they're the same of course. The characters are engraved differently. But the measurements are just about the same.

So I'm going to say probably yes.

@Ben... Thanks. That's exactly what I'm kind of wondering.... go to the trouble of tuning it? Or is it a technique thing?

If you want to borrow the one chris thinned for me before I had the tools and knowledge… I would think of it as a giant nakiri…. I think it’s about as thin as you can get, while still having just enough convexing at the edge to get some food release. The extra height gives it some mass… not much, but way more than if it was a 2 inch gyuto with that grind.

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:08 am

Bensbites wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:40 pm .....I would think of it as a giant nakiri…. I think it’s about as thin as you can get, while still having just enough convexing at the edge to get some food release. The extra height gives it some mass… not much, but way more than if it was a 2 inch gyuto with that grind.

Thanks again.

So, setting aside any questions about tuning geometries. Is that what it's about with these instruments? The mass behind the edge?

Naively speaking.... I'm still trying to answer the question Why would anybody love these?

I know they have their fans so it's either me, my technique, my cleaver or any combination of all 3.

JASinIL2006 · Post by **JASinIL2006** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:38 am

I like my CCK because it holds a decent edge, is quite thin, and is wonderful for scooping up ingredients after cutting. Relative to my J-knives, it also was quite inexpensive. I don't use it very frequently, but I am much more likely to reach for it than my nakiri if I'm looking to use a rectangular blade. For something like kohlrabi, though, I think I'd be more likely to reach for a gyuto with a bit of heft to it.

Tostadas · Post by **Tostadas** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:58 am

In terms of cleavers, the CCK 13xx is pretty lightweight at around 260g. So for a compact 210mm length knife, you get the thinness of a "laser", mass of a "workhorse" 240 to help move through food, plenty of finger clearance, plenty of relatively flat spot, a usable tip (compared to a nakiri), and the knife also functions as a scooper for moving around product. The steel is simple carbon which doesnt have the best edge retention, but sharpens up with little effort. Also doesnt break the bank at less than the cost of your typical entry level J-knife.

This is not to say that the CCK is perfect. Fit and finish vary. The one I bought from a local restaurant store several years ago came majorly warped. I actually used it for about a year before realizing. It's since been straightened, but even without, it still worked perfectly fine. The grind is not the most consistent, with unevenness and low spots in areas. There was a bit of gap in the ferrule where the tang enters, which I filled with epoxy to keep water out. Additionally the knife feels much more comfortable with some easing/rounding of the spine choil areas.

The blade is probably as thin as you will find in a knife, so thinning is not necessary, but it does benefit from a full initial sharpening out of the box. I'd recommend setting the primary bevels to your liking, and then going up to a medium grit (I leave mine at around 1-2k).

Here's a nice writeup about cleaver technique that might help also.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/thre ... post.5319/

d_rap · Post by **d_rap** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:39 pm

Aside from the fact that I got a perfectly straight one from Mark, my experience is almost the same as Tostadas'. The 1303 I have benefitted substantially from a sharpening out of the box, I took the edge down to a slightly more acute angle, and I touch it up frequently. But it cuts like the dickens, including in hard product.

Bob Z · Post by **Bob Z** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:51 pm

I have the stainless version of this, and also did a minor edge touch up and while it may never cut as well as my Toyama, it does pretty well. I think part of the appeal for these lies with tradition. I like to use mine when making chinese stir fry's of course but its just fun to switch from a nakiri to a cleaver once in awhile.

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:02 am

I think I may dig out my coarse stones and try an edge makeover to see if that makes me any happier.

It's been a long time since I've pulled out a blade and been as stumped as to what the appeal is. And I do know there's a wide and broad array of happy users.... So I'm especially curious.

jmcnelly85 · Post by **jmcnelly85** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:57 pm

I wonder if you just have a lemon?

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:17 pm

'Dunno.... Wouldn't be the first knife I've owned that needed a makeover. Lemon might be a little harsh... I think it was like $60 or $70 when I bought it. Not expecting a masterwork....

gladius · Post by **gladius** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:27 pm

Tostadas points out a few of the reasons cleavers work so well. The tall grind and weight basically means you simply steer the blade and let it do the work.

The CCK's definitely require an initial sharpening. Cleavers in general I find benefit from a very smooth edge and polish behind the edge. I also keep the face smooth with a Sandflex Super Eraser Fine << and Bar Keepers Friend. Build up can bind the blade through product. I touch up on a fine stone and 1 micron diamond spray on balsa strop.

I have a number of cleavers and here are the pair I use the most: Sugimoto No.6 and Kurosaki Small Cleaver AS

Notice how polished I keep the edge and behind the edge.

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:03 pm

Thank you. Very helpful. This knife has been to the stones but I can't say what I did with it other than to say it was at most a basic 1K / 3K freshen the steel.

Definitely no fine polishing. Think I may turn this into a project when I get some time and see what happens.

Ourorboros · Post by **Ourorboros** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:39 am

Robstreperous wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:49 pm but nothing special on the onions

This sticks out to me. Mine flies through onions like they are barely there. Potatoes barely register as solid matter even when I feel like my CCK needs a touch up.

Back to your question - I am a push cutter/chopper. It fits my mechanics.
My CCK 1303 in particular is flat and thin as my laser gyutos. It is nice to have the mass of a Western with the thinness of a laser, but it's really about having such a large flat length along with being a laser.

Other Chinese vegetable cleavers - and chuka-bochos in particular - are thicker and have a lot more weight. I actually prefer to go to tall nakiris rather than a chuka because of this.

I do wish the CCK had more edge holding though. If Moritaka made a copy in AS that would be great for me.

Robstreperous · Post by **Robstreperous** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:14 am

Alright... I'm convinced. Too many other people love these for me to be an informed naysayer. It's gotta' be the knife.

I'll add this project to my list, dig out the low grits, and get nasty with this sucker.

cliff · Post by **cliff** » Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:40 pm

I only have heavier cleavers. I love them as powerful workhorses especially in tighter spaces. I've got an Ashi and Moritaka that are both something like 1.5x the weight of my heaviest gyuto. If I'm making something like onion soup, they are perfect.

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