Daily Kos

CBS News poll: Bush's numbers collapsing

Wed May 12, 2004 at 11:42:15 PM PDT

CBS News (PDF). 5/11. MoE 5%. (April 4 results)
Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as President?

Approve 44 (46)
Disapprove 49 (47)

How about the economy? Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the economy?

Approve 34 (39)
Disapprove 60 (54)

Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?

Approve 39 (41)
Disapprove 58 (52)

Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the campaign against terrorism?

Approve 51 (60)
Disapprove 39 (32)

Do you think the result of the war with Iraq was worth the loss of American life and other costs of attacking Iraq, or not worth it?

Worth it 29 (33)
Not worth it 64 (58)

Iraq and the War on Terror initially had nothing to do with each other, regardless of how badly Bush and Wolfowitz and Cheney wanted it so. But the administration did their darnest to link the two, and in reality, the two are now indistinguishable.

So as Iraq goes to shit, so does Bush's terrorism ratings. And at the end of the day, his performance on the WOT is all he's got left going for him. He wanted Iraq and WOT linked, and now he's got it.

Worst president ever. Without a doubt.

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  •  Worst President ever (none / 1)

    Until Abu Ghraib I was still holding out for Buchanan, but now I conceded the title to Dubya.
    •  R U Sure? (none / 0)

      But he hasn't had sex with an intern!! </Sarcasm>
    •  Worst President ever (none / 0)

      Personally, I would have picked Franklin Pierce as worst president ever. But modern technology has enabled Junior Bush to make faux pas globally in seconds.
    •  Interesting that you... (4.00 / 5)

      ...raise that analogy.  In reality, Bush is the exact polar opposite of Buchanan in terms of policy - with the same result.  JB was a big intellectual, learned in the law and a believer in the notion that reasoned argument could trump passion.  He felt that the looming territorial crisis and arguments over slavery could be put to bed through simple Supreme Court rulings at a time when Americans were reaching for their guns.  He was basically a Carter at a time when we needed a Jackson - or a Lincoln.  His zealous, slavish devotion to the constitution and to the "rule of law," rather paradoxically, proved to be his undoing.  His unwillingness to go to war led us to war.

      How odd that a man like Bush, who's only devotion is to his own will to power, could achieve the same ends.  It proves to me that governance is really about realpolitik and not blantant ideology.  Guys like Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, F. Roosevelt, and even Bubba Clinton couldn't be fenced in with strict ideologies.  They had guiding principles, but were willing to flex their policies at a moment's notice to get a job done.  Neither JB or GWB could see their way clear to doing that.

      Now John Kerry is not Lincoln - although what do I know.  Lincoln was a three time loser before he got a stab at it.  But Kerry seems to have the ability to think on his feet, flex his agenda, and make policy that gets the job done.  Characteristics I saw in both he and Dean.  Something like that is the perfect antidote to a guy like Bush.  

      No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

      by CrazyHorse on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:25:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Flexibility, the next Kerry trait (none / 1)

        This may have been suggested in the thread yesterday on the Kerry "Seriousness" ad, and is by Kerry's campaign, but another good theme is  that flexibility in changing times is more important than staying a flawed course. It can also be used to turn a supposed flaw into a virtue. It goes along with responsibility, of course, because if you know you will never be held accountable, what does it matter whether you are really right or not?  

        Bush: what good is strong if you're wrong? (Of course, I don't think he's really strong, just stubborn and overcompensating.)

        Kerry:  Serious, Responsible, Flexible in changing times.

        If you're going in the wrong direction and you stay the course, where, exactly, do you wind up?

        by Mimikatz on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:01:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  ...after Bush is out of office (none / 0)

        ..hopefully this election, I would love to see a psychological biography of him.  I have used the term "Dry Drunk" to describe his personality traits but that may not be the whole story.  He clearly has a personality disorder and his inflexibility, black and white thinking, slight sadism revealed in his sense of humor and grandiosity are calling cards. He's made his administration into a cult following or state religion reflecting his narcissistic and overblown view of himself.

        Right now, I just want him out of office asap and to take his crew with him.  I think that this is the closest that we have been to facism since Tricky Dick and I wont rest easy until they are gone.

        Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

        by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:58:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Jeems Buchanan (none / 0)

      was a guileless patriot compared to GBII.

      James Polk, for his Mexico adventure and abuse of the military, may be close.

      Nixon's scandals - breaking into a campaign office - look like Monica compared to the damage this president has done to the country.

      Easily, hands down, there will be no doubt about it. Bush had precious few supporters among academics - the people who write history - a year ago. Bitching about "revisionist history" was not the smartest thing for starters.

      Now there's no way any honest pencil-pusher will have many kind words for this administration, not now, not ten years from now, not in a century.

      Worst. President. Ever. The outrage of this administration makes me want to puke.

    •  Watergate! (none / 0)


      Does anybody else think Watergate sounds like a junior-high level problem compared to the heap on the White House doorstep today?  I can't fathom how, with a war based on falsifications, abu ghraib, lying to congress & the populace about the costs of both Iraq and Afghanistan, diverting congressionally appropriated funds from the Afghan war to repaving runways in preparation for our attack on Iraq, to name a few - how a president could weather this into another term?  Are Americans really expecting a different Bush should he be reelected?
  •  Below 40%? (none / 0)

    TPM was wondering earlier whether Bush's numbers might drop into the 30's. But, for two of the most important issues (i.e. Iraq and the economy), they have.

    Worst president ever. Without a doubt.
    Yeah, you'd think a majority of Supreme Court justices would do a little better.

    "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

    by machopicasso on Wed May 12, 2004 at 11:49:59 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, really (none / 0)

      Yeah, you'd think a majority of Supreme Court justices would do a little better.

      As long as they were hell-bent on installing a Republican in office, why not just go with McCain? He's got as much legitimate claim to the job as Bush does.

      I have evidently Energised the Discourse and Made Politics Real Again. -Spider Jerusalem

      by agrajag on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:38:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  SCOTUS pResidential Installation (none / 0)

        If McCain had won the nomination, I don't think the SCOTUS would have had gotten a chance to intervene.

        I really believe that McCain could have motivated enough swing voters in what turned out to be an otherwise close race to have won legally. Unlike W.

        At the time, I wasn't paying much attention to the issues myself, and while I saw through the BS fed to us about Bush, I wasn't really thrilled with Gore.
        I would have considered voting for McCain, and I know many others who thought like me on this.  

      •  sock puppet (none / 0)

        Scalia. Cheney. Duck blind.

        McCain evidently thinks for himself, but Cheney's hand moves and Bush goes "quack quack."

        Even if Bush is toast, we have to make sure Rummy et al don't live on like the Undead they are. I sincerely doubt that all this policy came straight out of Shrubya's 5-gallon head.

        He's just stupid enough to believe he's the star of the show, and so are all the people who will still vote for him.

    •  30s (none / 1)

      I never used to think that Bush's numbers could get down into the 30s, but now I'm starting to reconsider.  The latest polls are suggesting that there is only one issue he is over 50% approval on, and that is the general war on terror.  But that issue is one he is dropping fast on and his approval rating is in the low 50s--51 in this poll and 54 in the recent Gallup poll.  I expect this rating to be under 50, as well, before long.

      Which leaves Bush running on nothing but that sparkling personality of his.  And at this point, I think even that is starting to wear thin on some people.  Every morning, Americans are rising to more bad news and looking around and realizing that the country is completely fucked.  Bush is tanking.  He has been for months now and it has only started to speed up.

      I imagine there will be a few small bumps in the poll for him between now and the election, but the overall trend will be downward.  And it's starting to seem very possible that he could get down into the 30s.  I'm not going to count on it, but I won't rule it out either.

      It sure would be nice, that's for sure.

      John McCain says overturn the law that legalized abortion

      by aimlessmind on Thu May 13, 2004 at 02:01:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The economic number (4.00 / 2)

      during April-May of an election year is the key indicator. 34% approval of how Bush is handling the economy is the kiss of death for an incumbent.

      But Kerry still has to drive a stake through the heart of this neocon nightmare.

      Who will stop this war of lies? Keith Olbermann May 23rd, 2007

      by Ed in Montana on Thu May 13, 2004 at 04:52:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Worst ever (none / 0)

    It is comforting to see Americans starting to wake up and smell the coffe. If Bush were to be "re"elected, the world would be right to view us as a nation of morons.
  •  Via (none / 0)

    Atrios I found out our favorite Bow Tie boy has joined the ranks of the not worth it crowd.

    While he's still a staunch conservative--he's anti-abortion, married with four kids--he's changed his mind about the war in Iraq. "I think it's a total nightmare and disaster, and I'm ashamed that I went against my own instincts in supporting it," he said. "It's something I'll never do again. Never. I got convinced by a friend of mine who's smarter than I am, and I shouldn't have done that. No. I want things to work out, but I'm enraged by it, actually."

    Markos, I've got a link in the previous thread that will get your blood boiling. You may want to wait until tomorrow to read it.

    •  Carlson? (none / 0)

      Tucker Carlson has always seemed to me to be a guy who only cared about which way the wind was blowing. If he has jumped ship then maybe we're in good shape.
      •  Never screw with people's archetypal self-image (none / 1)

        ...with photographic proof stapled to your town-hall door. This Bush guy is Ruy Tuixera's "Coming Democratic majority" thesis kickstarted and made fiesty.

        That's the nice thing about blogs, they make it easy to  brag on your 'clairvoyance'...  1-24-04, in the middle of Dean's meltdown and Dem teeth gnashing: Bush IS Carter:

        Carter's "malaise", the gas lines, economic grey skies as far as the eye could see, these all led to his being labelled as inept, but most devastatingly, they led to him being regarded as a victim of his circumstances--the times dictated what he said and recommended for us. And much of what he said was unimaginative and reflexive. True, often, but reflexive and constrictive nonetheless.
        It was noted last June at Calpundit (posted by some Bluto guy), in proudly spouting their pretty little "CEO Administration" moniker, they told the observant all they needed to know about where to look, and for what, in their dealings and their future prospects. Many are finally seeing that they demonstrate the dark side of the CEO personality daily: Arrogance, unilateralism, sleight-of-hand, self-interest, self-worship.  But, as Rummy likes to remind us all in his "Rules": The higher you climb, the more people can view your ass. See you at the polls.
    •  Priorities. (none / 0)

      I got convinced by a friend of mine who's smarter than I am, and I shouldn't have done that.

      Sounds like he should first find some new friends and then maybe start a new t.v. show.

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:09:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  pretty sad (none / 1)

      I got convinced by a friend of mine who's smarter than I am, and I shouldn't have done that.

      What an offhanded, casual way of announcing one's intellectual bankrupcy.

      Can somebody tell me what this utter rube is doing on television?

      I have evidently Energised the Discourse and Made Politics Real Again. -Spider Jerusalem

      by agrajag on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:43:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  staunch conservative (none / 1)

      While he's still a staunch conservative--he's anti-abortion, married with four kids

      Those things don't mean someone is a staunch conservative.

      Donald Driver for Wisconsin - Senate 2008 (Feingold for President)

      by Groper on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:06:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  bow tie (none / 0)

      And here I was thinking you were talking about George Will... until I clicked the clicky-clicky.

      "Efficiency is the steak. Renewables are the sizzle." --Carl Pope, Sierra Club

      by Red Herring on Thu May 13, 2004 at 02:46:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So wait until his wife has a dire... (none / 0)

      life threatening need to have to terminate a pregnancy. Or one of his daughters is impregnated at an inopertune time or, forbid, via a brutal assault and rape?

      Will Tucker change his tune on abortion at that time? Do his views need to be challenged directly for this simp to even consider the reasons for changing views?

      People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

      by rgilly on Thu May 13, 2004 at 04:37:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Asshole repressed gooper men (none / 1)

      a staunch conservative--he's anti-abortion, married with four kids

      so I guess being a "staunch conservative" means women as baby machines and no more (and god forbid she should have any say in the decison on whether to get or stay pregnant).  Have I mentioned how much I hate right wing men?  

      My dogma ate my karma.

      by FLDoubleBushed on Thu May 13, 2004 at 05:07:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're reading too much into it (none / 0)


        so I guess being a "staunch conservative" means women as baby machines

        How does that follow?  There are honest and reasonable people out there who are anti-abortion (whoops, sorry, pro-life).  There are honest and reasonable people out there who have large families.
    •  Tucker's actually been to Iraq (none / 0)

      Tucker Carlson traveled to Iraq around Decemeber (maybe it was earlier). I'm pretty sure that whatever doubts he had before he went, were magnified by his trip. He talked about how he had to travel with a heavily armed escort (pretty sure these were those security contractors types), and how to get gas they had to jump to the front of the line pissing everyone else in line off.

      He acknowledged that the security situation was bad. He didn't really say much more about it that I can remember. One of the few times that Carville was actually really nice to him on Crossfire, and wishing him to stay safe.

      "[Republicans] swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose." --Alan Greenspan

      by lanshark on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:25:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, thanks (none / 0)

    Wait a little while to go to bed, get to sleep on a better note than fatalities.
  •  The rape and torture room comments. (3.66 / 3)

    I think Bush really put himself in a hole with the bait and switch from WMDs to "closing the Rape and Torture rooms" line.  It made the whole war a choice between being good guys and being morally bankrupt.  Americans like to be the good guys, so they bought into the do gooder arguement.  

    However, the prison scandal now shows clearly that we are not the good guys, so it has started to colapse Bush's numbers.  

    Compare that to the charges of abuse at Gitmo.  There Bush used the "Making you safe" style arguement.  When the public learned about the problems and civil rights violation, they shrugged them off.  We weren't trying to be the good guys, just the safe guys, so problems were tolerated.  

    It's late and I could be full of it, but I think this latest scandal could have stronger legs than the other Bush problems that we rant about here day after day.

    •  Rasul vs. Bush (none / 1)

      It got play here, but not a lot in the mainstream media that I saw. Just to remind us all: at THE SAME TIME that non-accountable torturers were running amok at Abu Ghraib, the administration was presenting oral arguments at the Supreme Court that there was no problem with keeping prisoners in a legal limbo with nonaccountable jailers, because we would never, ever torture prisoners and you should just trust us to do the right thing.

      What is the time lag on decisions by the Supremes? When can we expect the ruling? I believe oral arguments were April 19.

      •  summer (none / 0)

        Decisions on the gitmo cases are expected by "early summer," according to reports I read at the time of the arguments, so it's going to be at least another month or so.
        •  USSC Recesses... (none / 1)

          in late June typically.  They hand down their decisions on cases argued that court year before they do recess.  Unfortunately for Rummy, this news broke before the USSC ruled.  Undoubtedly, that accounted for Rummy's rage during his Senate grilling last week about the "illegal" release of the photos, which seemed to trouble him more than the photos themselves.  

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Thu May 13, 2004 at 07:29:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  All decisions by June 30; possibly July 2 (none / 0)

        But no later.  The last argued are frequently, but nowe always, the last decided.  The most controversial are also often the last to come out, on the last possible day.
        If you're going in the wrong direction and you stay the course, where, exactly, do you wind up?

        by Mimikatz on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  and it's just "like American porno"... (none / 0)

      according to Rush Limblob

      My dogma ate my karma.

      by FLDoubleBushed on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:31:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You've got a point (none / 0)

      About Americans liking to be the good guys, I mean. The Abu Ghraib scandal -- and particularly the ever more obvious fact that it's the tip of a big, dirty detention-and-interrogation iceberg -- makes the Bush case for the war ideologically incoherent. You can only ignore Abu Ghraib by adopting the most brutal Realpolitik attitude toward our policy in Iraq, and that makes the rhetoric about "liberation" and "spreading democracy" ring hollow.

      Support for the war has been steadily eroding, but now it may melt down very fast, since Americans can no longer link it to their complacent conviction of their own moral superiority to the rest of the world.

      John McCain: A Bridge to the 20th Century!

      by SqueakyRat on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:02:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Query (none / 0)

      What were the photos of the severed cat head about anyway?

      This aggression will not stand, man.

      by kaleidescope on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:35:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We should continue to link terror and Iraq (none / 1)

    ...as in, instead of doing anything about terrorists, he invaded Iraq.
  •  wah (none / 0)

    it isn't the numbers on iraq that give me so much pleasure.. more so the numbers on the economy. not sure why... does anyone else feel this way?
    •  yes! (none / 1)

      I agree.  The economy is about an entire set of Republican policies that have failed.  The republicans don't know anything about helping the economy.

      Iraq can be pinned on Bush and his team.  

      The economy issue will reverberate into House and Senate races and party building.  The Iraqy issue will fall onto Bush instead of onto the entire republican agenda like it should.

      Think you have all the answers? prove it

      by Snuffleupagus on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:37:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  iraq and congress (none / 0)

        That's a good point, but of course the GOP in congress (and dems) is also very much culpable for the Iraq disaster.  As far as public perception of that goes it was probably given a big boost by Inhofe's disgusting comments the other day.

        "Efficiency is the steak. Renewables are the sizzle." --Carl Pope, Sierra Club

        by Red Herring on Thu May 13, 2004 at 02:56:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Has anyone else... (3.50 / 2)

        ...been watch Lou Dobbs' nightly pieces on the higher cost of college education?  People are going back to school in droves...more high school grads are getting into higher education.  This always happens in an economic downturn.  But schools, thanks to the Bush tax cut, don't have the money to take care of the influx.  California is actually turning kids away.  

        This is the stoopid part.  When the economy starts to take a hike the first thing the G should do is pour money into college education.  Education and retraining are major economic boosters.  You give the schools money and you provide tax incentives to get people back to school.  

        This is just one example of how far off the reservation neo-con thinking on meat 'n taters economic issues actually is.  

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

        by CrazyHorse on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:45:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good point (none / 0)

          This an area that isn't gettin much attention, and it's making parents and prospective students angry. Crazy Horse has more on the ball about this than anyone I've seen lately. Please take this even larger in a diary with issue expansion.

          Under Clinton parents were getting the smart kid with grades into college, and the second kid, smart  with bad grades, into "redbrick" schools and art colleges and such, and the older student into College or pro trade schools. Now we're lucky to get the smart kid with grades into college.

          •  But what's even worse ... (none / 0)

            is that all these kids have to look forward to is tens of thousands of dollars in debt, while the jobs they are training for will all be in India.

            But today's NY Times says there's a growing market for cosmetologists.

            - What happens on DailyKos, stays on Google.

            by Jon Meltzer on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:13:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  people judge the economy from their own lives (none / 0)

      These numbers prove, yet again, that great economic statistics do not a great economy make. People know the job market is still not very good, nobody is getting raises or bonuses, and inflation is hitting people where it hurts.

      In addition, I think this very discrepancy between the stats and people's reality is causing some dissonance and some resentment. I for one am getting pretty pissed off at these sunny job numbers when all I see are temp jobs and retail clerk and nursing positions. And the media absolutely refuses to report on the quality of the jobs being created! Why do you suppose that is?

      A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

      by tmo on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:48:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder what the (none / 0)

    government/the admin and the war machine will do now...
    •  OT, but... (4.00 / 2)

      Marisacat,

      A couple days ago, I argued with you re: Rumsfeld resigning/being impeached.  I've been reading up about Rummy, and I have to say I was wrong and you were dead on.  Most of what's going wrong in Iraq, torture or otherwise, can be traced back to Rumsfeld in one way or another, usually pretty directly.  If he doesn't resign, he should be impeached.  

      Admitting mistakes more readily than the Bush Administration since 2001,

      CI

      The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --George Bernard Shaw

      by Categorically Imperative on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:18:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's got to go......;-) (none / 1)

        ... and I am very happy to see Kerry calling even more forcefully than a few days ago.  His renewed statements coming out of Orlando yesterday, and more fully reported in the Wapo than by AP, are a relief.

        The whole world is watching.  Rumsfeld must go, for his crimes.  I am expecting he will, but I want it sooner, as soon as possible..., not in many, many weeks.

        Thanks for your post....;-)

        •  ..What's the hurry?... (none / 0)

          ..Rummy is the anvil that has been thrown onto this administration.  I hope that he takes it right to the bottom along with his arrogant, disastrous policies.  By firing him, Bush cleans himself up and I don't want him to do that...just get out as soon as possible.

          Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

          by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Thu May 13, 2004 at 09:08:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rummy has been around (none / 0)

            for far, far, far too long (remember that picture of him shaking hands with Saddam as Reagan's envoy?). Bush is stupid and bad, but it's the Rime of the Ancient Neocons that is pushing all this, and if Rummy gets discredited in a big way (not just a wrist slap a la Ollie North) then he can't come back to haunt us.

            Bush I only lasted a single term, but all the bad elements floated back into power. If Bush II is the only fall guy here, they could conceivably turn up again. Apparently any sock puppet in the Oval Office will do.

  •  waiting for the other shoe (none / 0)

    while I'm happy that Bush's approval ratings are falling, I can't help but worry about what kind of desperate response will be forthcoming from this White House if the numbers keep dropping. In particular, all the new moves around Cuba and Syria make me frightened for what could happen.
    •  I agree (none / 0)

      The poll numbers will make them more and more desperate. Even if it becomes obvious Bush cannot win the election that does not mean the neo-cons around him will not at some point push the panic button and do something even more stupid than what we have already seen with Iraq. If he reaches for Cuba or Syria or anywhere else this time hopefully Congress or the courts or someone will stop it before it can start.

      BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog

      by Rob on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:13:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Re: The Panic Button (none / 0)

        To a large extent, I think your concern is well-warranted. The neocons have shown a complete disregard for anything or anyone not in step with their ideas.

        But wouldn't a last-minute attack/invasion on Cuba or Syria give Democrats the opportunity to argue that BushCo is a thoroughly insane, raving lunatic?

    •  Well, they're not known for their principles, so.. (none / 0)

      if people inside the echo chamber start to think the campaign's a hopeless effort, then we may see signs of people trying to salvage their careers. Somebody, here, implied something along these lines the other day with respect to a comment Karl Rove recently made about the situation in Iraq, but I can't remember the specifics.

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:15:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They have very few options (4.00 / 3)

      We starting talking here last year about how BushCo had "broken the Army", that is overcommitted it in such a way, and reduced morale so much, that the possibility of using it for force projection anywhere else in the world was becoming a practical impossibility.  Well this week I heard quotes in the paper from a General (speaking on background) using exactly those words: Broke the Army.

      I do not believe the Army Brass will support any kind of move on Syria.  And I am not talking bureaucratic footdragging, I am talking turn in their resignations.  We do not have the troops to support our current committment in Iraq after next Spring, taking on a country that has an army and an economy unbroken by a decade of no-fly zones and sanctions would be literally insane.

      I don't doubt that Chief of Staff General Myers would go along.  He is Air Force and a war on Syria would give his boys unlimited targets to blow up.  But the fighting Generals in the Army will rebel.

      •  They don't have to resign (none / 0)

        The generals wouldn't resign: they just wouldn't do it. The general officer corps is much more a club than a hierarchy that it would seem to be. So even in the best of times, if a general doesn't want to do something, it's pretty hard to get him to do it however many stars are on his shoulders.

        Now assume pretty accurately that the majority of Army leadership is against any new war. They'll tell Rummy how they can't do this or that, or how it will take a year to do this and we'll get back to you. Sure Rummy will know he's being played, but what's he going to do? Fire over half the general officers? Never underestimate the power of institutional resistence.

      •  Myers is scared sh*tless... (none / 1)

        he knows just how deep this hole is.  And he knows the contempt with which he is held by the troops.  Tool me once...

        When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

        by wozzle on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:49:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Send Bush to Mars? (none / 0)

      It would certainly keep his little mind busy, and keep him out of trouble :-).
    •  Losing the military limits options (none / 0)

      We have to remember that there is a major split in the top military, and many view the military as already broken.  I can't believe they will stand for more military action while 135,000 troops and a lot of broken equipment are tied up in Iraq. And as for martial law--forget it.  That leaves a terrorist attack, but even there it may be that there are too many people deserting the ship to maintain the requisite level of secrecy.  Their incompetence has limited their options, to our benefit.
      If you're going in the wrong direction and you stay the course, where, exactly, do you wind up?

      by Mimikatz on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:15:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ellsburg the Man (none / 0)

        Daniel Ellsburg made the point that Bushco's survival in power depends on its crimes and lies being kept secret.  That's becoming increasingly difficult as the bureaucracy fractures and rats start to look for a way off the sinking ship.  

        A similar process took place post-Tet and it lead to all sorts of crimes coming out, from the secret bombing of Cambodia to breaking into Ellsburg's psychiatrist's office to government funds being spent improperly to build a fence for the Western Whitehouse in San Clemente.  I believe we've already reached this point with regard to Iraq.  Look more damaging stuff to leak.  

        For Kossaks too young to have experienced Watergate, let me tell you you're in for a treat this summer.  Think of how you feel about Bush -- that's how almost everyone I knew felt about Nixon.  To watch him crucified in the media day after day and then go down in flames was better than my birthday, Christmas, Halloween, Easter and election day all rolled into one.

        The summer of 1974 I was working a plastic injection molding machine in Phoenix, too poor to afford air conditioning. That July, as part of an attempt to bolster his sagging ratings, Nixon did a tour of conservative venues like Nashville and Phoenix. "I am not a crook."  He was chased from Phoenix by a raucous crowd singing "Jail to the Chief."  I took great pleasure flipping his limo the bird as it sped to the airport.  Johnny Cash played a concert at the Whitehouse and Nixon made a special request that Mr. Cash play "Welfare Cadillac."  Johnny played "What is Truth" instead.

        Fasten your seatbelts; it's gonna be fun.

        This aggression will not stand, man.

        by kaleidescope on Thu May 13, 2004 at 02:02:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  keep punching. keep pushing. (4.00 / 4)

    These plummeting numbers are good news and well deserved.  Bush has been screwing up for a long time, but enough of his chicken shit has come home to roost in plain sight and gagging stink for most Americans to finally notice.

    He and his crew will get uglier going down, and won't stop at much to pull his numbers back up.

    We can't let up in our communicating about Bush's depredations and the "progressive promise."  We've got to make sure this dracula stays down.  And we've got to try to get Kerry a sweeping mandate.  Kerry will need it given all the mess the new administration will have to clean up.  We'll be greatly helped in our international situation if the rest of the world sees that we Americans reject Bush's doctrines utterly.

    Also, the greater the mandate Kerry can achieve, the less he'll have to triangulate with the vestiges of the right.  A big Kerry mandate would also motivate moderate Republican lawmakers to reject their NeoCon party-crashers.  A mandate for Kerry should also give us progressives more sway to help return our party to Democratic values.

    Civil society is our collective creation. It's an honorable source of growth, mutual satisfaction and fulfillment. It's yours and mine to nurture, or nix.

    by Civil Sibyl on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:06:49 AM PDT

  •  I don't understand (none / 0)

    Why he's percieved as doing so badly on the economy. Yes, in absolute terms unemployment is up since he took over, but he's had two months of positive news on this front. Why have the numbers collapsed now?

    Is it just that he's too busy to point to a quarter long recovery, or are there other factors at play?

    The truth about the nuclear industry. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll wish we were making it up. http://weblog.greenpeace.org/nuclear-reaction

    by EJMorley on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:07:19 AM PDT

    •  Unreliable. (none / 1)

      I don't think the official unemployment numbers are reliable (-I assume those are the ones to which you're referring). Relevant factors are usually omitted (e.g. people who are unemployed and have stopped looking for work on account of discouragement are typically excluded from the numbers). Of course, this Administration manipulates practically every report it can, so it shouldn't be a surprise if public opinion doesn't square with the "data" the administration presents.

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:23:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  mcdonalds is a factoy job (none / 0)

        The numbers also don't reflect how many people have lost decent paying manufactoring jobs and have had to take low paying wal-mart cashier positions and the like.

        Donald Driver for Wisconsin - Senate 2008 (Feingold for President)

        by Groper on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:10:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. (none / 1)

          Mere employment numbers seem a superficial indicator. What's needed is a breakdown of the "jobs lost/jobs gained" category that tracks salary and benefits. Spending one person's living-wage salary to employ three below living-wage workers shouldn't count as "growth".

          "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

          by machopicasso on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:17:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly, (none / 0)

            people are hearing that the economy is better and there are more jobs in the paper, but they all suck. They don't really understand exactly how the economy has been retooled to benifit the haves, but they know it has happened.
        •  Yes. (none / 0)

          You see them everywhere in Massachusetts - middle-aged ex-engineers working as cashiers at convenience stores and Trader Joe's.

          - What happens on DailyKos, stays on Google.

          by Jon Meltzer on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:17:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Gas prices? (none / 0)

      Is it just that he's too busy to point to a quarter long recovery, or are there other factors at play?

      Maybe Americans have finally realized that they can rightly blame high gas prices on the oilman himself. If so, it's been a long time coming.

      What's the difference between Wall Street and Las Vegas? Neon.

      by harveythechainsaw on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:27:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It Ain't Just Gas Prices! (3.50 / 2)

        Just wait 6 months. There is a wave of hefty price increases in raw materials that will rapidly increase prices in a huge range of industrial and consumer goods. My company is purchasing some large forgings that have increased 30% in price in 1 year due to increased cost of steel. Copper prices, steel, stainless steel all are going through the roof due to increased consumption by Chinese industry. This, in addition to increased petroleum prices will have significant cost implications in almost every product and service we buy. Once Greenspan decides to cool off the world economy by raising Fed rates we should see a significant level of default on bad consumer debt. This will really get the default ball rolling. Be afraid! Of course, the major impact will have more to do with the long term implications of free trade policy than specific Bush admin screw ups.

        There will be bumps in the road to prosperity.

    •  We've (none / 1)

      About 3 yrs. of stagnant/falling wages.  Health care costs are through the roof.  Gas is high.  Interest rates will go up soon.  Tax refunds weren't as high as expected ($98 more rather than $300 more).  A lot of people realized that $300 check was a refund pre-payment (they had to add it to the tax bill).  I don't see how this will help Bush.  His policies are coming home to roost.

      Little known fact -- John McCain was a POW!!!

      by Unstable Isotope on Thu May 13, 2004 at 03:53:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interest rates. (none / 1)

        Bingo. The US economy has been feebly struggling to its feet... maybe. Although people don't really judge it by official statistics, they judge it by how many friends, family, and acquaintances have lost their jobs and not found new ones, and by how scared they are personally of losing their own jobs. It takes many months of growth to get people to stop feeling that times are bad.

        But in any case, it's all going to get knocked down again, because as soon as interest rates start going up, the real estate boom that has been sustaining the economy from total collapse is going to burst.

        Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

        by Canadian Reader on Thu May 13, 2004 at 04:27:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree (none / 0)

          Was thinking about this on the way home last night.  If they have artificially inflated the employment numbers, they are backing Greenspan into a corner.  The markets are jumping all over the place in anticipation of a rate increase (especially after the "stronger than expected" employment report).  But if the reports are wrong, how can he make the right decision?  The whole thing is screwed up because of all the misinformation.  

          Of course, "the stock market" does not equal "the economy", but if they raise rates prematurely because of pressure, the housing market will be impacted.  Then all bets are off.

          Meet me in Cognito, baby

          by out grrl on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:50:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It'll be impacted anyway. (none / 1)

            Even if the reports are right, consumers are over-extended in terms of debt. A lot of people have been surviving unemployment by leveraging the equity they have in their homes to the max. Low interest rates made that feasible.

            Low rates also allowed home-buyers access to much higher mortgages than they would normally be able to afford at their income levels, which drove up house prices. If interest rates increase, buyers won't be able to afford such large mortgages, so those inflated house prices are going to fall. Result: there will be a bunch of people stuck with a mortgage bigger than the resale value of the house.

            This is not good, because interest rates are heading up fairly soon. If they followed Greenspan's recent advice, they'll have a floating-rate mortgage (yes, he really said that!), and won't be able to afford the new higher rate. Even if they have a fixed-rate mortgage, sometimes people have to sell, in which case they'll end up owing money to the bank. Or they might just take a look and decide the hell with it, they're better off to default on that huge mortgage and give the house keys to the bank.

            So. Any way you slice it, there's trouble ahead in the real estate sector.

            And these are matters that really hit people hard. Losing your home... for most people, there's just no bigger indication of bad times than that.

            Who are they going to blame?

            Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

            by Canadian Reader on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:59:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Blame (none / 0)

              Blame?  Why, Bill Clinton of course!  

              Compound the rel estate devaluation with  imminent inflation and wage stagnation (or decrease) and you are putting a lot of families very close to the edge of disaster.  For the life of me, I can't imagine what Greenspan was thinking when he recommended variable rate mortgages.  Anyone who took that advice and isn't paying close attention to rate fluctuations (like most American families) is going to get hosed.  

              Every time I hear talking heads go on and on about how the housing market will survive because "this is different", I think back to the heyday of the internet bubble when all the talking heads were telling us "this is different".

              Meet me in Cognito, baby

              by out grrl on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:06:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What was Greenspan thinking? (none / 0)

                Well, I heard about this on "Marketplace." I forget who it was talking about it, but the only guess the expert could offer was that Greenspan was worried about the effect on lenders who could get stuck with all these very low fixed-rate mortgages, so he was trying to convince consumers to act against their own interests.

                I'm not sure how many people listened to him. I mean, if they're naive enough to buy this line of hooey, would they even know who Greenspan is, or why he's important?

                By the way, I remember the 1970's. When credit is tight and interest rates are really shooting up, with no end in sight, mortgage lenders don't beg you to take a floating rate, they tell you that's all you're gonna get. Nope, no fixed-rate mortgages available at any price. If you don't like it, sorry, you don't get to buy the house.

                Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                by Canadian Reader on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:00:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Greenspan (none / 0)

                  Greenspan has been touted as a genius for so long that there are probably a number of people who listen to him.  People who really don't know that much about markets and rates who are doing a little digging around before taking out a mortgage (now that we have the internet this is a pretty easy exercise) could read and respond to those commnets. IMO they were reckless.  If they were tied to serving the interests of lenders, then he should be dragged out to explain exactly what his motivations are and exactly who it is that he calls "master".

                  Meet me in Cognito, baby

                  by out grrl on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:11:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I just tried a google search (none / 0)

                    The search terms mortgage rates fixed floating

                    yielded 70,000 pages. Adding greenspan found just 2,090 pages. So only about 3% of the pages in that (probably fairly typical) search request would have included any reference to Greenspan. I didn't spot any reference included on the first page of search results.

                    In the second search, I did find this source that gives more detail about what Greenspan actually said.

                    I've got to say, if I were trying to make up my mind on this question based on what I found in the first search, I would be very confused. There were a lot of lender-sourced documents purporting to prove that floating rates are just, ooh, way better, but I didn't find any site that clearly explained the decision tree depending on what you think is going to happen to interest rates, and when. I'm sure a more focused search could have found something. I'm not going to spend the time today, though -- I have an 'adequate for current needs' understanding of the issue already, and no plans to take out a mortgage any time soon.

                    Where was I going with this? Oh yes. The above admittedly cursory investigation suggests to me that the problem of misinformation is way bigger than Greenspan. But he still shouldn't have said it.

                    Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                    by Canadian Reader on Thu May 13, 2004 at 01:13:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe people understand (none / 1)

      that a 1/2 trillion dollars in deficit spending do not an economic recovery make.
    •  It's the collapse in general support (none / 1)

      IM(not usually)HO.  I suspect Bush's economic numbers have been propped up by his overall approval numbers.  There is just too much cognitive dissonance between telling a pollster that you, along with 60% plus of other Americans, approve of Bush's job performance, and simultaneously saying that his performance on the economy sucks.  Your mind then has to duck the question "What's to like?"

      Bush crashing through the Mendoza line has liberated people to rate him fairly on all issues.

    •  Well, (none / 1)

      The net loss of jobs has not been offset by these few rather pitiful gains.  People are still hurting in a big way.  Pluse the jobless claims numbers are artificially depressed by the fact that folks are starting to fall off the rolls.  This guy still stands as the only preznit since Hoover to lose jobs on his watch.  The so-called recovery is spin and nothing more.  

      No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

      by CrazyHorse on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:50:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  tip of the iceberg now above the water (none / 1)

      Even those in relatively stable jobs and economic sectors have seen little or no gain in income over the last half decade. Like the tax cuts, the gains from productivity increases have gone to the top, not to the work force. This has been intuitve to those in the work force. Only lately has it begun to be spun out in the press.

      Eventually this all adds up: good jobs replaced with crappy ones, whole industries decimated, joblessness underreported, the employed middle class in economic stagnation, etc.

    •  Economic numbers belied by reality (none / 1)

      Sure, they can point to new jobs, but they are at Wal-Mart or temp jobs.  They never compare the pay of jobs lost versus pay in the new jobs.  The "jobless rate" figures are skewed because they just drop people who give up looking for work.  Further, even if there are macroeconomic gains, they are still going to the wealthy.  Corporate profits are up, but they are going to manangement and shareholders, not workers.  The tax cut is now seen as a hoax.

      Bush blew the chance to create publicly funded jobs like cops, firefighters, health care workers, teachers, pollution control technology etc, that would have paid well and not gone offshore.  Plus, inflation is up in everyday things, like food and energy.  People aren't fooled by the numbers when they are contradicted by the reality of their own lives.  

      If you're going in the wrong direction and you stay the course, where, exactly, do you wind up?

      by Mimikatz on Thu May 13, 2004 at 08:23:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush I Redux (none / 0)

      It's a somewhat similar situation to what happened during his father's administration. According to the number crunchers, the economy was already in full recovery by mid-1992. But the public was only beginning to see the effects of it and the idea of a "bad economy" had been so cemented in the press that Bush Sr. could do nothing about it.

      There are a few other variables in this election, but none that help Dubya. Namely, the war in Iraq has dragged on longer than the administration bargained for and prevented Bush from focusing on economic policy. I'm sure that in Rove's twisted mind, he figured that cheering Iraqis would accept self-rule and that triumphant King George would then pretend to turn his attention to the economic plight of his own people. The other variable that hurts Bush is that the dynamics of the recovery are not too great. There have been new jobs created, but most are low-paying and without benefits.

      •  Thanks (none / 0)

        Thats a pretty solid summary of things to explain it - and a testimony to the standard of discussion round here. So things to watch out for are

        House prices falling
        Rate rises
        Oil prices (record high today I see)

        After a house price bust in the UK negative equity (your mortage is worth more than your house) became the phrase of the day and political poison. If that's coming your way a lot of people will be feeling the squeeze as well as Bush.

        The truth about the nuclear industry. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll wish we were making it up. http://weblog.greenpeace.org/nuclear-reaction

        by EJMorley on Thu May 13, 2004 at 10:17:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bush's real problem (3.66 / 9)

    I said this before the war and many time since:  the American electorate will never punish Bush for starting this war, no matter how immoral, unjustified or stupid it was to do so.  A frightening majority of Americans will support any bold, resolute leader who kills foreigners who hate Americans or who look like foreigners who hate Americans.

    The American electorate will only punish Bush for losing the war or appearing to lose the war.  And that is exactly what he is doing right now.

    No time to get cocky though, he's still got six months to get Osama.  And he could cut and run in Iraq and call it a victory.  You have to know that four networks and two major newspapers will crow their agreement and punish anyone who disagrees.  We have to keep in mind that the corporate press/media are just as invested in this war as the Bush administration.

    •  Brucewin's Law (none / 1)

      When a gloom and doomer shows up the thread is dead.

      There is exactly no way that Bush can' cut and run and call it a victory'  and the corporate/press are only invested in ratings.

      I have never believed the US people at large are stupid.  But it is certainly true that many, many and perhaps a substantial majority are disengaged from not only politics as we examine it here, but national and world affairs at large.  Because they devote all of their time and energy focusing on making a living and being involved in their children's lives. (Losers - what are they thinking)

      But most people are aware of the big issues at some level, they walk by the newstands, they turn on the morning shows to catch the weather and the traffic, and get some news in passing.

      BushCo is rapidly turning into a steaming mass, and Americans can smell bullshit when they have to.

    •  You're right (none / 0)

      Is that irony?  Some people are really into correcting folk on their use of irony.  It's similar to Serbian elections a while back when Milosevic lost.  He lost not because he was a vicious war starting monster, but because he lost those wars he started.  Sharon in Israel just lost that vote about Gaza not because it was a territory grab never seen before in that conflict, but because it didn't go far enough.
    •  I think (none / 1)

      Bruce Webb is right:  I compare my life--a single young person with no dependents and relatively few commitments besides a fairly untaxing 9-to-5 job, versus a father and/or mother of four children who are running from work to soccer practice to dance classes to PTA meetings (in other words, my parents' lives for the last 20+ years).  I have the luxury of reading blogs and online newspapers, taking an hour to watch the NewsHour, and keeping close tabs on the news, while many other Americans barely have enough time to skim through the morning's newspaper.

      EVEN SO, that does not excuse people from not engaging in critical thinking.  All you have to do is read the front page, watch the 30-minute newscasts, and think, "Okay, why are these things happening? Do Bush and Rumsfeld deserve to be called good leaders if all of this is happening under their watch?"  

      James Earl, you're also right in that the American people tend to look at the results rather than the process or even the cause, and I also despair about the ability of the American populace to put 2 and 2 together; but there are moments when I think back on all the people I personally know in my blood-red home state, and I feel a glimmer of hope:  these people may be slow, underinformed, and a little too doggedly loyal, but by and large, they aren't stupid once they learn the facts.

      "See that guy's reaction when Bush shakes his hand? Surprise, then disappointment. Surprise, then disappointment."--Hank Hill, King of the Hill

      by heg03 on Thu May 13, 2004 at 06:57:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we'll see in November (none / 0)

        I think a lot of people are supporting Bush on the war because that was their initial inclination, and they haven't had the time to check whether there's anything to back up his claims. A bunch of those people will do some last-minute checking just before they vote, and I think many will change their minds.

        That, I think, is what happened to Gray Davis in the recall election. The polls were close going into the last week, because a bunch of the people who voted for him in the general election assumed he had some good answer for his critics. When it got into the last week and all he wanted to focus on was Schwartzenegger's grope scandal, they realized he didn't.

        This will be close into mid-October, and then the just-tuning-in people will break Kerry's way.

  •  Never ignore the war on terror (3.50 / 2)

    Those numbers are still somewhat strong, and key. In the event of another terror attack here in the US or in a place that harms a large number of Americans, support will still swing back behind Bush because he is still seen as a terror-fighter.

    Kos is right that the war on terra is all that Dubya has going for him. But it's a real big thing to have on his side. September 11 and the fight against terror have enabled Bush to rape this country as he has. It's what is keeping the more timid elements among the GOP on board the Titanic. It has kept the media from launching an all-out assault on the Worst President Ever.

    So while we can see a good deal of good news in these numbers, that WOT number is one we need to fixate upon. If we really want to finish off Bush, we have to expose his sham anti-terror strategies. Show how first responders and ports and airports have been screwed over. Show how the Patriot Act has been used to expand government power instead of protect Americans. Show how Bush's actions around the globe have crippled the fight against terror by making more enemies and making our friends reluctant to join in our idiotic crusades.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:21:40 AM PDT

  •  Polls Move Toward Rum's Ouster, But Critics Abate (4.00 / 9)

    Should Rumsfeld resign?
    PollDateYesNoOther
    ABC/WaPoMay 5-620%69%11%
    AnnenbergMay 6-924%66%10%
    GallupMay 7-931%64%5%
    CBS NewsMay 1137%53%10%

    Or, to spell out the trends:

    Should Rumsfeld resign?
    PollDateYesNoOther
    ABC/WaPoMay 5-620%69%11%
    AnnenbergMay 6-924%66%10%
    Change1-3 Days+4-3-1
    GallupMay 7-931%64%5%
    Change0-1 Days+7-2-5
    CBS NewsMay 1137%53%10%
    Change2-4 Days+6-11+5
    Total Shift5-6 Days+17-16-1

    If anyone has seen other polls on this, let me know.

    Troublingly, though, noise about Rumsfeld resigning seems to be quieting.  Here's a timeline of the numbers of stories posted on Google News each day that include the words "Rumsfeld" and "resign":

    May 4: 11
    May 5: 295
    May 6: 919
    May 7: 1,100
    May 8: 457
    May 9: 159
    May 10: 846
    May 11: 232
    May 12: 218

    Did politicians see the early poll numbers and feel it was a losing issue?  Did they believe that, once Bush publicly professed hearty support of Rumsfeld that demanding a resignation would be fruitless?

    Even if a resignation doesn't occur, it's to America's benefit that Rumsfeld, his policies, and Bush's overall handling of the war be discredited in the minds of the public.  Calling for Rumsfeld's resignation is an effective way of making that happen.

    Obama debating McCain is like hope debating gloom.

    by Michael D on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:22:37 AM PDT

    •  Yep (4.00 / 3)

      "Did politicians see the early poll numbers and feel it was a losing issue?  Did they believe that, once Bush publicly professed hearty support of Rumsfeld that demanding a resignation would be fruitless?"

      Pretty much. Shows that Bush still strikes fear in the hearts of the immature kids who run the DC Dems and the media punditocracy. Until that veil of Stalin-like power is pierced, our road will remain an uphill one.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Thu May 13, 2004 at 12:25:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or (none / 0)

        Maybe they figured that Bush keeping Rumsfield on would be a net political plus for the Dems.  Which given the very poll we are discussing is a distinct possibility.

        "May you have warm words on a cold evening,
        A full moon on a dark night,
        And the road downhill all the way to your door."

        But you guys insist on turning that all around.  For you every road is "uphill".

        •  Cheney