Question for Shelley re Mantel

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:17 pm

Hi Shelley---I'm making this a topic as I figured others would also want to know.

On your blog you have this statement re the "Old Time Friends" fireplace mantel at Maplecroft: "The mantel today is no longer in its old familiar place. It has been replaced by one of marble."

What happened to it?

Thanks!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:28 pm

I have not been in Maplecroft for about 5 years, but several people I know have recently, and the mantel is not in that front second floor room any longer and has been replaced by one of marble. As to where it is, I could not swear with any certainty. The two stories are circulating (both from good sources in the know) that it is either in the basement or has been sold. I tend to believe the latter may be true, which is why I finally felt able to post the photo as it is no longer in Maplecroft.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Dang!!! It would be a real shame if this mantel has in fact been sold. It is also unfortunate that the owner of Maplecroft did not contact either the B&B or the FRHS to see if they wanted to purchase it or knew of someone who would want to buy it.

Shelley, your blog is awesome!!!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:10 pm

Thanks, the blog is one thing I was having so much fun with as a conference promotion tool. I hated to give it up.

I am not sure if the current owner will get top price for Maplecroft without some well-known fittings which make the property unique: the mantels, the painted bathtub, the firescreen, the Quezal glass sconces, original wallpapers, etc. The house loses much of its desirability when Lizzie's touches are removed. The sconces and bathtub have also been removed, as well as some of the stained glass panels. I can't say what has become of these things, as nobody other than the owner knows for sure. I hope they are indeed in the garage and basement although why they were removed in the first place seems odd. These things are actually safer left in place. Maplecroft without these things is just a big old house.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:14 pm

You're welcome, Shelley.

I think you may be right; the owner of Maplecroft will most likely not get top price for the property - the real value of that house was in the Lizzie artifacts it contained. It would be a real a shame if Lizzie's things have been sold - I hope not. I find it disgusting to know these things have been removed.

The "Old Time Friends" fireplace mantel alone was an item that would have increased the selling value of the house if and when he decided to sell. Why he had it replaced is beyond me; granted a marble mantel is beautiful, but Lizzie's two fireplace mantels are absolutely gorgeous. Apparently, this owner has no clue as to what a gold mine he had.

I couldn't agree with you more: "Maplecroft without these things is just a big old house. "

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:20 am

I think Maplecroft has been a mixed blessing to the current owner. It can be fun owning an historic home, and a pain in the neck. Not every prospective owner realizes that total strangers will want to stop in front of your house day and night with cameras, finesse ways to see the interior, stomp on the lawn, stand on the steps, etc. I imagine the novelty of being in a famous dwelling wore off in a hurry. I would say Mr. Dube's interest in Lizzie is fairly mild, while others have a consuming interest in her and her homes. Technically, he owns all of the premises and can sell what he wishes, although I agree it is a huge mistake selling off items for which the property is reknown. If certain prime accoutrements are missing, they will have to be listed as sold , and the price negotiated accordingly. The house has been privately on the market for a very long time and I wonder if this may be the reason why, that some prime fittings are no longer there. It would be wonderful to know where they are, who bought them, etc. if only for a record for future generations of where they ended up.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:04 am

Shelley, thank you so much for your answer. I really enjoy your blog.

That said, this absolutely infuriates me. It's bad enough so many old homes and buildings from the past are lost, but it's even worse when the place has a specific historical value.

I live in an apartment in a manor house built in 1878. During the depression the house was brutally cut up into 4 apartments, with a tacky addition built between the house & coach house. I've seen the inside of 3 apartments & all have destruction to the house in their make-up. A magnificent staircase was ripped out and replaced with a dark, gloomy enclosed one. Upstairs there are nailed-shut *doors to nowhere* that used to open on the now non-existent upper hall. I could go on & on. Basically, it was a fast, clumsy job that utterly destroyed formerly magnificent details. Unfortunately by that time, these details were seen as old-fashioned and worthless in the face of practical considerations. The current owners are elderly & have (& had in the past) absolutely no interest in preserving anything. They themselves have contributed to the destruction in various ways, especially in the past 40 years where they have let things literally go to rot.

Unfortunately, value often is seen only materially rather than aesthetically or historically. In the case of the house where I live, the destruction began out of necessity---the whole house probably would have been lost had the owner not found a way to make the property pay.

I wonder if Mr Dube selling off bits & pieces of Lizzie were out of economic need.

All the same, it is abominable.

Surely he was told about everything before he purchased. The former owners all seemed to love the place & keep it up & dealt with the intrusions.

There was a newspaper article with the previous owner saying she wanted to take one of the fireplace mantels with her when they moved. Obviously she felt the better of it, and left it respecfully behind. How awful for this to have happened anyway!

On the brighter side, Bordenites have been quite fortunate so much of the past HAS survived. The house on 2nd Street still stands while much of the neighbourhood around it has been lost. Maplecroft is still there, albeit becoming more & more a shadow of its former self. The garage was saved from being turned into a small house.

Still, it feels like raping & looting when parts of the whole keep getting stripped away.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:29 am

I would think that if some of Maplecroft's decorative items were being sold off, that somehow, it would leak out to the press, or to someone that would have to tell somebody else. Also, the best way to sell such items would be at a highly advertised auction, where they would go to the highest bidder (and, look at the selling prices projected for the upcoming Titanic auction!). If that had happened, we would all know about it.
Is Maplecroft on the National Register for historic places? If it is, and Mr. Dube has accepted grants or funding for the preservation of Maplecroft, I would imagine that he could be in a bit of trouble if he started selling off its archictectural bits and pieces.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:02 am

That's a very interesting point, Stuart.

I believe when Mike Dube was posting here he said his father had declined from being listed.

However, I also believe that played some kind of role in the denial for the application for the conversion of the garage.

For years I have been wishing & hoping someone with a preservationist outlook & plenty of bucks could take Maplecroft out of Mr Dube's hands for his sake as well as history's.

O how I do wish someone might do something!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:35 am

"However, I also believe that played some kind of role in the denial for the application for the conversion of the garage. "

For a time a board was placed over the word Maplecroft. Perhaps the selling off of interior fixtures is an extension of his frustration with the city. We can only speculate of course, what the motivation may be. I do agree though, that for preservationists and those who just love old houses, it is a bitter blow to see one single piece of original architecture come down. Sadly, we cannot save them all, and Fall River had a bounty of magnificent buildings at one time which have seen the wrecker's ball. I have often jokingly said we should all form a consortium and BUY Maplecroft and run it as a museum. It would take, by my conservative estimation about one million to buy and restore and furnish the place correctly, garden maintenance, etc. Any takers?

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:38 am

"O how I do wish someone might do something! "
--Tina-Kate

Now, where have we heard those words before??;-)

It IS rather ironic, isn't it? Lizzie's pride and joy firmly in the grasp of someone who seemingly could care less about it or its meaning to everyone else, and ther being no way to rescue it.
Rather like Andrew's money (at least in Lizzie and Emma's opinion)...

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:44 am

I did a cartoon for *The Hatchet* a few years ago when that board was in place. It showed Lizzie furiously hacking that board to pieces to reveal the *Maplecroft* step with something like "*!@#^&!!!" in a balloon over her head.

Unfortunately the cartoon is on my old MAC disks.

Funny thing was, I think in about a month that board actually disappeared for real! I think it was Mark who sent us a photo.

william · Post by **william** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:30 pm

This is the verse on the carving over the "missing" mantel:

AND OLD-TIME FRIENDS & TWILIGHT PLAYS
AND STARRY NIGHTS AND SUNNY DAYS
COME TROOPING UP THE MISTY WAYS
WHEN MY FIRE BURNS LOW

I was saddened to learn that the mantel is no longer in its original location in Lizzie's winter bedroom at Maplecroft. Several years ago I attempted to discover the origin of therhyme. I contacted the NY Public Library and The Library of Congress. A national library publication (The Exchange) carried a nation wide request for information. All were unsuccessful. The possibility that Lizzie originated the verse exists, but it seems unlikely.
During her lifetime she displayed no particular talent in this direction. My best "guess" is that it was the work of a former owner of Maplecroft.

In view of the this continuing myustgery about the verse, I have always considered this mantel to be the major artifact in Maplecroft. Now it is gone.

(Ref. Lizzie Borden Quarterly, "The Carvings of Maplecroft," Vol. 2, #6, 1995).

kfactor · Post by **kfactor** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:31 am

I feel so strongly about preserving properties and keeping them intact. The town I grew up in is trying to raise funds to purchase the oldest farmhouse in town, once owned by the town's founding family. It is a *17th C* farmhouse and has been a residence continuously. There are people in town who don't care....

The point I always try to get across is that once these structures are gone, they're GONE. The same applies to splitting up estates and selling off architectural features of a house.

Fall River Has such a gem in Maplecroft - if only I were a millionaire.... I would buy Maplecroft and turn it into an historically accurate Lizzie Museum. And I might have a swell party or two.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:43 am

Unfortunately, for all of the historic preservation groups and historical societies that exist in our country these days, most are powerless when it comes to saving anything. When money talks, these groups don't have a leg to stand on.
I've seen it happen in my own city several times, even though the city prides itself on great strides in historic preservation.
The sad truth is, preservation works only if it will make somebody some money.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:04 am

stuartwsa @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:43 am wrote:Unfortunately, for all of the historic preservation groups and historical societies that exist in our country these days, most are powerless when it comes to saving anything. When money talks, these groups don't have a leg to stand on.
I've seen it happen in my own city several times, even though the city prides itself on great strides in historic preservation.
The sad truth is, preservation works only if it will make somebody some money.

Here in parts of California, people who own historical sites, like old Victorian homes, that have been labeled as "Historical" are not permited to paint or fix-up the structure without approval from the Historical Society. The "Historical Society" has so much power that many older sites are rotting away. The "do-gooders" want to maintain the structure's "original look." It takes a lot of effort to get permission to fix-up older sites. It is a sad situation.

-1bigsteve (o:

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:14 am

Well, the city has had mixed views about all things Lizzie. There is a large faction which does not regard the case as something the city should promote. The Fall River Line and the textile industry are what is considered of significance. There is also a certain recent fascination with "hauntings", paranormal and the more grisly forensics side of the case which also leaves many residents cold. I can't think offhand of too many cities which are known for a brutal hatchet slaying. Lizzie does bring some revenue into the city through tourists, and their dollars feed the restaurants, hotels, and other attractions in town.

Ours is a society now of sensationalism, crime, culture of death, slice 'em dice 'em movies, cheap thrills, etc. I can well understand why the city tries to keep some sort of lid on Lizzie, and promotes other aspects of city history. Maplecroft has, since Lizzie moved in, been regarded as a house of some mystery, and people drive by in their cars and point and stare still-but as a city landmark of historical significance- it simply isn't. With city dollars in short supply for maintaining other edifices of historical merit, Second Street and French Street are private residences in reality, and not a part of municipal concern. There has never been, to my knowledge, an attempt by the city to offer any preservation funding for Second Street. Recently the house received one of those little white historic place plaques saying 1845 Charles Trafton House which is now mounted on the S.W. corner of the house.
By and large, the owners of the houses have used these places as homes, raised families there and did business as usual the way we all do daily. It has only been since 1996 that Second Street turned into a museum and bed and breakfast as a commercial enterprise for visitors. For people like us, whose interest goes deep for these two properties due to an interest in the case and the people involved in the case- we are the minority. Because we seek to understand Lizzie, and all that surrounded her, especially things she chose personally, speak more to us of who she was. And we want to know and see and save what is left before it all is gone. Still, we have no authority, nor does anyone in the city have it to make any demands upon a private home owner, which is too bad for us. We are at the mercy of those who are in the lucky position of occupying these wonderful residences. At least a great deal of both houses has been photographed, if not published, and some day I fear photos are all we will have left.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:12 pm

As this library window and the mantel are no longer at Maplecroft, or at the least installed there, I am able to post a few photos of them. This best shows the colors of the glass I think, and the pattern is a wonderful art nouveau-y style, as are the mantel carvings. Fluid vines and flowing flowers... lovely stuff. The amber glass makes a warm glow on the At Hame in My Ain Countrie mantelpiece.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:36 pm

That really is lovely. I hope it is just stored away rather than having been sold off. Still, as someone stated here, it would be safer left in place. I work in a century-old church & all the gorgeous stained glass is protected on the exterior with plexiglass. This is very inexpensive protection & we were glad to have it last summer when the largest window was hit by a huge tree branch during a storm. Three plexiglass panels were knocked clear off---but just imagine if it hadn't been there!

Another question if you don't mind, Shelley. On your blog with the feature re Lizzie's Library, what is the picture showing what looks like exterior work being done at Maplecroft? I tried to enlarge it & it would not work for me. When was that taken?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:51 pm

I have a unhappy feeling that the stained glass window is sold. I cannot imagine why it would simply be taken down. It was not loose and that room was not being used for a bedroom where more light might be wanted.

I was trying to pin down that photo of the reshingling of Maplecroft. It was the year of my knee surgery. I remember hobbling about in the street, picking up the odd shingle as a souvenir which had been tossed aside. I had already posted that photo here under Fall River and environs, Maplecroft Exteriors thread, page 1 I think. I think it is safe to say early 92 or 93 for the date.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:56 pm

Er.. it was page 2! In the bottom one, you can see the stained glass window in place. The second chimney back is the one for the library fireplace. Right below is the first floor parlor box bay window.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:56 pm

It would be wonderful if Maplecroft were to be restored to it's original condition as it was while Lizzie was living there, with the mantel, window and everything else in place. Hopefully these items are still in the basement or stored somewhere safe.

I love your blog, Shelley. It is neat.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:04 pm

Shelley, perhaps I missed it but is there a "floor plan" showing the layout of the rooms and furniture in Maplecroft as there is with the murder house? I would love to see what Lizzie's house looked like inside.

Also, what is the street address of Maplecroft? I thought I would look at an airial view of the house on Map Quest.

-1bigsteve (o:

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:06 pm

Thanks Bigsteve. I am sorting through lots of old pictures to see what else I may have of interest. I call it my evening therapy-this blogging business!

I was trying to recall how many fireplaces I have seen in Maplecroft. There is a magnificent one in the entry, you see that first chimney hooks in there. Then there is a large one in the parlor which uses the backside of the flue from the entry, one beautiful tiled surround fireplace set in at a slant in the diningroom, one in the second floor front room which some think was a winter bedroom, one in Lizzie's library, and a raised hearth fireplace with the salamander screen in her back bedroom over the porch. There may have at one time been one in Emma's small room-it is not there now. I have never visited the third floor. What a lot of fireplaces!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:07 pm

306 French Street. I have drawn my own floorplan of Maplecroft which I will dig up.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:12 pm

One of my favorite spots in the house is Lizzie's breakfast alcove on the west side of the back of the house off the kitchen. It has a lovely view and is secluded and shady. I can picture her there reading the morning paper while her breakfast was being prepared just behind her in the large airy kitchen with its huge sink and white tin embossed ceiling. Heaven!

Today it has been lined top to bottom with modern kitchen cabinets and there was no longer a dining table there the last I saw of it-more now of a kitchen storage extension. But I bet it was very elegant once. The proportions and windows have a lot of charm.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:26 pm

I answered your questions BigSteve on the previous page.

"I would think that if some of Maplecroft's decorative items were being sold off, that somehow, it would leak out to the press, or to someone that would have to tell somebody else. Also, the best way to sell such items would be at a highly advertised auction, where they would go to the highest bidder (and, look at the selling prices projected for the upcoming Titanic auction!). If that had happened, we would all know about it.
Is Maplecroft on the National Register for historic places? If it is, and Mr. Dube has accepted grants or funding for the preservation of Maplecroft, I would imagine that he could be in a bit of trouble if he started selling off its archictectural bits and pieces."

Yes, one would think so, but in truth private sales are the way to go, and many gallery antiquities dealers will arrange private, non-auction transactions for clients who do not want the hoopla of publicity or knowledge of what is being sold off common knowledge. It would be detrimental to a prospective buyer to learn from the start that some important fittings were no longer on the premises. For anyone wanting to avoid widespread indignation, historical preservation people, or a public outcry, there are many avenues of sale discretion to follow to get top dollar from well-heeled collectors. Often the buyer also does not want the publicity either for insurance and home security reasons.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:56 pm

Shelley @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:07 pm wrote:306 French Street. I have drawn my own floorplan of Maplecroft which I will dig up.

Thank you, Shelley. I looked up Maplecroft at Map Quest but couldn't zoom in enough to see Lizzie's house. I'll try another terra server.

I was wondering how many fireplaces Lizzie had. I see only two chimney stacks so each one must have multiple flues. I'd love to peek up into the smoke domes. I can just see Lizzie kicking off her shoes and roasting her tootsies in front of those fireplaces on those cold, dark winter evenings sipping on a cup of hot chocolate!

White tin embossed ceiling tiles? I love those. That must look cool. A local eatery has them on their ceiling but they are stainless steel, rather cold, but the pattern is nice. There is a lot of charm in these older homes that you seldom see in modern houses. Too bad.

-1bigsteve (o:

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:13 pm

Thanks Shelley for all the candid enlightenment.

Violations on history, if in fact true, must be disclosed.

To divulge, inform and broadcast such suspicions or actualities is a service well realized and appreciated by those who have nothing short of respect and admiration for past culture and heritage inherited by our cities and its inhabitants.

There will be those so dense and little as not to understand such values, or cunning and shrewd as to pillage history for their own greedy, selfish desires. Shame on them

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:26 pm

Tina-Kate @ Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:44 am wrote:I did a cartoon for *The Hatchet* a few years ago when that board was in place. It showed Lizzie furiously hacking that board to pieces to reveal the *Maplecroft* step with something like "*!@#^&!!!" in a balloon over her head.

Unfortunately the cartoon is on my old MAC disks.

Funny thing was, I think in about a month that board actually disappeared for real! I think it was Mark who sent us a photo.

TK, you can see ALL your cartoons on the http://www.hatchetonline.com/ site. Members can log in and are presented with a stunning slide show of your work.

You actually did TWO Maplecroft cartoons. Here they are.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:41 pm

Amen to that, mbhenty!
Thanks for your response, Shelley. As much as I might want it not to be that way, I think you've hit the nail on the head about private sales of historically important items. Integrity has certainly taken a back seat to greed and acquisition these days, unfortunately. But that's alright. Kharma has a way of catching up with folks that act that way.
PS: Shelley, count me in as another fan of your blog!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:25 pm

Thanks, Stuart- I may get the hang of this blogging thing yet!

Well, I hope be to fair and candid. I have been offered hospitality on several occasions at Maplecroft by the current owner, and would not wish to be accusing without proof of course, nor cast aspersions on anyone's motives. That being said, from a common sense point of view, if a valuable mantel were in fact falling off my wall, I would have it re-attached. I would not remove it to a basement and replace it with another one. The safest place for a window- is in the window frame. The safest pace for Tiffany glass sconces is not a garage- it is on the wall on which they have hung for decades. Unless one were remodeling a bathroom and putting in a shower- I think a cast iron hand-painted bathtub is a heavy object to haul down the staircase and put in a garage. One can draw one's own conclusions from this. All I know for certain is that the mantel and library window are not at the moment- where they once were. I have seen the deed from the last sale of the house, when it was owned by Mrs. Silvia, and there is mention of specific items we have discussed being "maintained".

In a legal document which is public record, and which anyone can see and obtain a copy of, during the divorce proceedings of the current owner, "part of the realty" lists all of the fittings which have been discussed here as part of the transfer of ownership to the spouse for the consideration of $1.00. So in essence, the physical house itself, plus all the listed items of especial value belong and were transferred to the present owner.

In a court of law, I do not think there could be a case made for the legal homeowner to be in breach of contract for these items being sold. It would, I think, only be a matter for the lawyers if things were misrepresented in advertising, or trying to deceive a potential buyer. Sad- but there it is. I don't know if any particular items have been designated of "historic value" as some interior furnishings are in say, Washington D.C., like Lincoln's bed -and may not ever be removed. I pretty much doubt this is the case with Maplecroft.

I would love to be proven entirely wrong in all of these worried speculations, and would hope the intelligence I have heard on the matter is incorrect. I suppose we could just call and politely ASK!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:45 pm

Shelley, your pics of Maplecroft are absolutely awesome; they bring a piece of Lizzie's life at Maplecroft alive. Thank-you for sharing them with us.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:55 pm

Am glad to do it- as they are not showing any of the private current interiors or possessions of the owner, and it HAS been 15 years since they were taken, I don't feel I have violated a promise not to publish.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:06 pm

Shelley @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:55 pm wrote:Am glad to do it- as they are not showing any of the private current interiors or possessions of the owner, and it HAS been 15 years since they were taken, I don't feel I have violated a promise not to publish.

I have a feeling you may be right, Shelley.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:13 pm

I would also add that "will not publish" back in 1992 referred to a printed publication where I would profit from the sale of any photos. I can honestly say I have never made one cent on anything Lizzie-related. The profits from my Lizzie paperdoll book all went to the FRHS, including my copyright. I do get paid as an innkeeper though at #92- although I would probably pay THEM to let me do it!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:38 pm

Shelley @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:13 pm wrote:I would also add that "will not publish" back in 1992 referred to a printed publication where I would profit from the sale of any photos. I can honestly say I have never made one cent on anything Lizzie-related. The profits from my Lizzie paperdoll book all went to the FRHS, including my copyright. I do get paid as an innkeeper though at #92- although I would probably pay THEM to let me do it!

I highly commend you, Shelley. I hope if I ever have the opportunity to visit Fall River, that I will be lucky enough to have you available to show me the sites; I understand, from what I have been reading regarding Ellen and Richard's recent visit, that you are a terrific tour guide. I would love to meet you.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:39 pm

1bigsteve @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:56 pm wrote: ... I was wondering how many fireplaces Lizzie had. ...

According to Mr. Dube, Lizzie had six fireplaces, although he did not mention all of their locations. (See link posted below).

Shelley @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:06 pm wrote:I was trying to recall how many fireplaces I have seen in Maplecroft. There is a magnificent one in the entry, you see that first chimney hooks in there. Then there is a large one in the parlor which uses the backside of the flue from the entry, one beautiful tiled surround fireplace set in at a slant in the diningroom, one in the second floor front room which some think was a winter bedroom, one in Lizzie's library, and a raised hearth fireplace with the salamander screen in her back bedroom over the porch. There may have at one time been one in Emma's small room-it is not there now. I have never visited the third floor. What a lot of fireplaces!

Thank-you Shelley!!! I had a feeling you could tell us the location of each fireplace. Kudos to you.

1bigsteve @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:04 pm wrote: ... I would love to see what Lizzie's house looked like inside. ...

Steve, the following link is from the Mondo Lizzie Borden blog ; it is a short (a bit over 2 minutes) YouTube video on the inside of Maplecroft; approximately halfway was down the page, right after the purses, you will find the YouTube video titled, Maplecroft from the Inside.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... t&sbutt=Go

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:33 am

During my trip the week I was in Massachusetts I stayed with an old friend in Salem before I went to Lizzie's. She lives in a Queen Anne style house that is over a hundred years old. She has some beautiful original stained glass windows in the house and she is concerned about one of them. I saw that it was starting to sag and bulge out because the metal has stretched over the years from the weight, so she is eventually going to have to have the entire thing taken apart, the lead replaced and resoldered. I wish I lived closer because I do stained glass and I would love to be able to do that for her. It would be an exciting project. Anyway, maybe that's what happened to the window in Lizzie's house.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:26 am

Could be, but I have never seen a SAGGING FIRE PLACE MANTLE or DROOPING BATH TUB.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:44 am

I was referring only to the window. AND trying to give another hopeful possibility.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:51 am

Shelley, do we know if the stained glass window was made by Tiffany and Company or not? It sure is similar to one in our local museum that definitely was made by them.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:54 am

Well, I guess the joke went over your head.

Believe me, there was nothing wrong with that window....I have seen hundreds of stain glass windows in place, many which were sagging. They usually end that way when on the sunny side of a building. There was nothing wrong with that window. I use to look at that window almost every day.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:03 am

Spending a lot of time in the church "biz", I am very familiar with the stained glass world - repairs, re-leading, acrylic outer protective coverings etc. The trick to using those acrylic sheeting outer windows is ventilation. If no air can circulate, eventually the leading will suffer. The old wire grilles have a good record but often rust and stain stonework. The top stained glass expert on the east coast is Dr. Virginia Raguin at Holy Cross, with whom I was blessed to work on a museum gallery exhibition in 2004. All that being said- there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with the library window. As you can see, it is not a huge window either. Long, tall church lancets may have some buldging or buckling due to failing lead connections. You will also see that the library window was primarily very small units of glass, not large expanses which are at risk of support issues.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:05 am

Sorry Angel.........didn't mean to sound snooty. Just that this is a delicate subject for me. I find it sad and criminal. Removing a stain glass window from an old Victorian home is like removing a kidney..........

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:13 am

Upper unit of the window.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:14 am

Lower unit (sorry for the pixelly image but this is greatly magnified to show the small glass units. I am not sure it is Tiffany.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:20 am

This is real funny Shelley; the way we debate each other on certain topics. Len and I have the same particular behavior. More than once I find myself in dispute with him and we usually have a fun and opposite exchange of ideas. Of course we both enjoy it. I am finding this is true of you and I.

So here goes:

I am no expert on stain glass windows. So please allow me to exercise a little arrogance here.

Many of the stain glass windows I have seen sagging were sandwiched between another sheet of glass or in a hot hallway. The reason they sag is because of the heat. The reason there is heat is because of the lack of ventilation.

Hey, guess this time it wasn't so bad.......

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:30 am

Quite right. I would love to have a buck for every single church window I have seen which has "suffocated" or grown molds from being a sandwich is that devilish acrylic blanket. A simple fix is to drill holes in the acrylic sheeting or leave the top and bottom OPEN a slit. Duh.. what ARE these people THINKING? Part of my job as Diocesan Altar Guild director for the Episcopal Diocese of Rhode Island is saving people from themselves in the sacristy by giving workshops on textile conservation, metalware cleaning, preserving precious antique church fixtures and offering services for renovating a period church. About 5 years ago a friend of mine in Boston who is an architect began The Arts and Crafts Revival Associates and we make churches our specialty. Some of our members are in SPNEA (Society for the Preservation of New England Antiquities) or specialize in various areas of preservation. http://www.historicnewengland.org/

In order to make a case for Maplecroft, a great deal of work must be done, tracing deeds, checking local regulations regarding historic properties, etc. before going public to make sure you have a case.

Debate MB? Oh, I don't hink we ever had one of those did we- now we are all on the same page about the banks!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:37 am

Thanks, Shelley!

I think Maplecroft looks so much better with the shingles---I have a pet peeve about siding. If the shingles needed replacing, it's a pity they didn't go that route---altho it would probably have been more expensive.

I'd probably get into trouble myself if I owned Maplecroft. I would get rid of Lizzie's 1920s enclosed porch & want to put it back to the original (altho keeping the granite steps, of course).

Thanks Stef for posting that cartoon. I think my fav "Maplecroft" cartoon was the one I did with young Victoria Lincoln trying to "make friends".