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Boys Are Spanked More Than Girls

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Marg Petersen

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Mar 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/20/98
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In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>>
>>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
>overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
>presence of corporal punishment.
>>
>>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
>likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
>the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>>
>>-- bostnbob
>
> My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
> a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
> high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
> martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
> definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
> was mostly maternal.

NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.

> Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
>
> Lefty
>>

Well, there's another one. :-)

Marg

--
Marg Petersen Member PSEB: Official Sonneteer JLP-SOL
god...@peak.org http://www.peak.org/~goddess
"At ease Ensign, before you sprain something." - Capt. Janeway

bost...@nospam.alt.net

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Carol Ann Hemingway

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in


a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
was mostly maternal.

Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.

Lefty
>


Emma

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Marg Petersen wrote:

> In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.
>

> > Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
> >
> > Lefty
> >>
>

> Well, there's another one. :-)

And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of discipline.
Fine balanced kids they are too.

I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack
or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
like this is in their best interests.

My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon
washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had
done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
your own good."

Go figure.

Marg Petersen

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <35138C8E...@globalnet.co.uk>,
>> Well, there's another one. :-)
>
>And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
>horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of discipline.
>Fine balanced kids they are too.

Yup, the secret is in the raising, not the presence of hitting.

>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack
>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
>understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
>like this is in their best interests.

It most definitely *isn't* in their best interest. Sure, it MAY
stop the inappropriate behavior (for a time), but what about the
inappropriate behavior that the parent doing the spanking has
exhibited? It certainly gives a mixed message to the child being
spanked, IMO.

>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon
>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

Absolutely! I was raised pretty much the same. I didn't get
spanked very often but my brother did. Most of what he learned
was FEAR of the parent doing the spanking. And so did I. It
certainly didn't teach us anything of a positive nature, IMO.

>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had
>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
>your own good."
>
>Go figure.

Yeah, I've heard that one before. :-( Actually, I personally
believer that spanking/hitting ones' kids is the act of a parent
who isn't intelligent to figure out another way to handle their
child's inappropriate behavior. That, or a parent who is too
lazy to bother finding another way. When a parent is faced with
a child's inappropriate behavior, the *easiest* thing to do is
to hit/spank. It takes self control, intelligence and the desire
to actually *teach* the child something positive to refrain from
lashing out. The ONLY thing that spanking/hitting a child does
is to allow the parent to express their anger in as convenient
a way (for the parent). It has nothing to do with the child's
own good or is in the child's best interests to spank or hit.

Gerald Alborn

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could
smack
>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought
about
>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I
can
>understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by
hitting
>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a
child
>like this is in their best interests.
>
>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials,
nylon
>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step
mother
>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on
one
>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance.
I
>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage
your
>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.
>
>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he
had
>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...
for
>your own good."
>

Emma, in case you are interested, there is a book by that very title "For
Your Own Good." It was written by Alice Miller and it's very
enlightening reading. To briefly quote from a few pages of her work:

" We will continue to infect the next generation...as long as we claim
that this kind of upbringing is harmless. It is here that we experience
the harmful aftereffects of our survival, because we can protect
ourselves from a poison only if it is clearly labelled as such, not if it
is mixed, as it were, with ice cream advertised as being "For Your Own
Good."

"...the general public is still far from realizing that our earliest
experiences unfailingly affect society as a whole; that psychoses, drug
addiction, and criminality are encoded expressions of these experiences.
"

"Since training in many cultures begins in infancy during the initial
symbiotic relationship between mother and child, this early conditioning
makes it virtually impossible for the child to discover what is actually
happening to him. The child's dependence on his or her parent's love
also makes it impossible in later years to recognize these
traumatizations, which often remain hidden behind the early idealization
of the parents for the rest of the child's life."

"A father who was trained to be obedient at a very early age may on
occasion take cruel and violent measures to force his child to be
obedient in order to satisfy his own need to be respected for the first
time in his life."

"Among the adult's true motives we find:

1. The unconscious need to pass on to others the humiliation one has
undergone oneself.
2. The need to find an outlet for repressed affect.
3. The need to possess and have at one's disposal a vital object to
manipulate.
4. Self defense: ie., the need to idealize one's childhood and one's
parents by dogmatically by applying the parent's pedagogical principles
to one's own children.
5. Fear of freedom.
6. Fear of the reappearance of what one has repressed which one
reencounters in one's child and must try to stamp out, having killed it
in oneself earlier.
7. Revenge for the pain one has suffered."

" The reason why parents mistreat their children has less to do with
character and temperament than with the fact that they were mistreated
themselves and were not permitted to defend themselves."

"The child's intense anger at the parents, being strictly forbidden,
is simply deflected onto other people and onto himself, but not done away
with. Instead, because it is permissible to discharge this anger onto
one's own children, it spreads over the entire world like a plague."

Quoted from Alice Miller's "For Your own Good
Hidden Cruelty in Childrearing and the Roots of
Violence"

-Jerry-


Emma

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Marg Petersen wrote:

So true. Like the fact that violence is OK if there is a reason for it. Like the
fact that it's OK to force smaller/weaker people to do what you want by the use
of force....like the fact that it is justifiable to display authority by
violence. Would account for my disrespect for authority, now.


Brenda Smeby

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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On 21 Mar 1998 05:34:51 GMT, lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann
Hemingway) wrote:

>In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>>
>>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
>overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
>presence of corporal punishment.
>>>

Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
offender population show a well below average level of education.
Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
education.


>>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
>likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
>the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>>

Quite possible.

Remove "nospam" to reply via email

If Life was a Highway, I'd be in a ditch

Bright Blessings
Brenda Smeby
ICQ#4128184


Carol Ann Hemingway

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In <35138C8E...@globalnet.co.uk> Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
writes:
>
>
>
>Marg Petersen wrote:
>
>> In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>> Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>> >>
>> >>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment
are
>> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in
the
>> >presence of corporal punishment.
>> >>
>> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are
more
>> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up
in
>> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is
tricky.
>> >>
>> >>-- bostnbob
>> >
>> > My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
>> > a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
>> > high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
>> > martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
>> > definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
>> > was mostly maternal.
>>
>> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
>> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
>> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
>> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
>> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
>> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
>> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
>> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
>> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
>> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
>> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
>> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.
>>
>> > Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
>> >
>> > Lefty

>> >>
>>
>> Well, there's another one. :-)
>
>And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
>horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of
discipline.>Fine balanced kids they are too.
>
>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could
smack>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I
thought about>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I
used to think I can>understand why parents slap their children....now I
cant. The idea of>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then
carrying on by hitting>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to
have any place in my>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that
physically hurting a child>like this is in their best interests.


---------
That about says it all. When humans think with their
soul....that is the result.
---------------


>
>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials,
nylon>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my
step mother>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass
ashtray on one>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a
common occurance. I>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me
was how to manage your>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me
respect.
>
>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he
had>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been

"...for>your own good."
>
>Go figure.
>

>> Those who cannot find the words to love their children
into adulthood, resort to the strap or the hand, or
the fist. The better course of action is to learn how
to love them up....give them roots and wings. If they
KNOW you love them, they can move mountains. If you
hit them.....they will always wonder what love means.

Carol

FistofFury

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

>>Until the day they grow up and damn near kill you when they learn to
fight back. I should have done that to my father had I not feared him.
I never did respect him, but I think the feeling was mutual.
Well why didnt you? You should defend yourself. Fortunately I was never in
such a situation, but I wouldve fought if I was.

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:
: LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

: >Children subjected to any and
: >all forms of corporal punishment are overrepresented in the criminal
: >and juvenile offender population. Thus, while not all children
: >subjected to corporal punishment are represented in these populations,
: >the probability increases in the presence of corporal punishment.
: >

: Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
: both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
: juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

True, but if this is the case, then it is clear that corporal
punishment was ineffective in training these children not to become
criminals and that alternative methods need to be explored instead.

Causality is indeed tricky, and correlational data alone do not
constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is
the most parsimonious explanation for the available data taken as a whole.
A recent study by Straus et al. (1997) has lent this interpretation added
weight by showing that spanking appears to exhibit a dose-dependent
negative effect over time. Children who were spanked the most at the
beginning of the study showed, as a group, the most increases in lying,
cheating and antisocial behaviors two years later. This is consistent
with a cause-and-effect relationship between spanking and long-term
behavior problems.

Chris

REFERENCES

Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.

Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155

Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.


Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Baba Booey (baba...@howard-stern.com) wrote:

: On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 03:39:01 GMT, bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:

: >Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
: >both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
: >juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

: Alas, it's hard for a child to learn respect when s/he is not
: respected either.

Small children are watching their elders like hawks, always
looking for cues on how to behave as members of their particular culture.
It is shocking and sad to see how rudely some parents treat their
toddlers, especially when these same parents then argue that they "have
to" spank their kids because they are so ill-mannered (!)

I urge everyone to be on their best behavior and employ their most
courtly manners when dealing with toddlers. For one thing, the children
will adore you for it, since they are typically rather starved for respect
from adults. For another thing, you will find that if you respect them,
they will respect you back, and will be *much* more likely to do what you
need them to do on occasions where you simply have to have things your
way. And best of all, they will pay you back with interest may times over
as they model their behavior towards you on your behavior towards them!

Chris

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Emma (po...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
[snip]
: The idea of

: grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
: them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
: understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
: like this is in their best interests.

There is, in fact, no empirical evidence of any measurable
long-term benefit to the child from spanking - just a lot of cultural
mythology.

: My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon


: washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
: throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
: occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
: think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
: tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

"Respect" is just a euphemistic code-word for "fear" when it is
used to justify hitting children. Everyone knows that *they* don't
"respect" bigger stronger people who hit and hurt them just because they
hit and hurt them - quite the contrary.

: Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had


: done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
: your own good."

Child abusers virtually never recognize their own behavior as
abusive. "Abuse" is always something someone else does.

: Go figure.

Like the pretense about "respect" being won by hitting, the claim
that hitting children benefits them is commonly trotted out to justify
parental domestic violence against children. But no one has ever managed
to demonstrate any evidence of measurable long-term benefit from spanking.
All of the available evidence is either inconclusive, or else consistent
with long-term negative effects. Spanking serves the needs of parents,
not the needs of children.

Chris

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Marg Petersen (god...@kira.peak.org) wrote:
: Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
: >I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack

: >or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
: >it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
: >understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
: >grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
: >them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
: >understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
: >like this is in their best interests.

: It most definitely *isn't* in their best interest. Sure, it MAY
: stop the inappropriate behavior (for a time), but what about the
: inappropriate behavior that the parent doing the spanking has
: exhibited? It certainly gives a mixed message to the child being
: spanked, IMO.

Children learn how to conduct themselves by observing how their
elders behave. Thus it makes sense that children who are hit the most by
their parents also hit other children the most at school (Strassberg et
al., 1994) commit more assaults on nonfamily members as teenagers (Straus,
1991) and are more likely to be domestic violence perpetrators as adults
(Kantor & Straus, 1994).

Boys *are* spanked more than girls at all age levels (Straus,
1994). If spanking is a risk factor for later aggressive behavior,
including domestic violence, it would make sense for feminists to be
opposed to spanking. But since women do most of the spanking, opposing
the practice would mean defining women as perpetrators rather than as
helpless victims at all levels. Hence, with some praiseworth exceptions
such as Kate Millet, the women's movement is largely silent on the subject
of routine, normative violence against children.

Chris

REFERENCES

Kantor, G.K. and Straus, M.A. 1994. "Corporal Punishment of Adolescents
By Parents: A Risk Factor in the Epidemiology of Depression, Suicide,
Alcohol Abuse, Child Abuse, and Wife Beating." _Adolescence_
29(115):543-561.

Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.

Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155

Straus, M.A. 1994. _Beating The Devil Out Of Them: Corporal Punishment
In American Families_. New York, NY: Lexington Books.

Donna

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Marg Petersen wrote:

> Emma wrote:


> >Marg Petersen wrote:

> >> Carol Ann Hemingway <lefty wrote:

> >> >>LaVonne Carlson wrote:


> >> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.

(snip)


> >> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
> >> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> >> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

> >> > My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
> >> > a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
> >> > high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
> >> > martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
> >> > definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
> >> > was mostly maternal.

> >> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
> >> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
> >> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
> >> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
> >> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
> >> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
> >> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
> >> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
> >> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
> >> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
> >> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
> >> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.

(snip)


:-( Actually, I personally
> believer that spanking/hitting ones' kids is the act of a parent
> who isn't intelligent to figure out another way to handle their
> child's inappropriate behavior. That, or a parent who is too
> lazy to bother finding another way. When a parent is faced with
> a child's inappropriate behavior, the *easiest* thing to do is
> to hit/spank. It takes self control, intelligence and the desire
> to actually *teach* the child something positive to refrain from
> lashing out. The ONLY thing that spanking/hitting a child does
> is to allow the parent to express their anger in as convenient
> a way (for the parent). It has nothing to do with the child's
> own good or is in the child's best interests to spank or hit.
>
> Marg

I don't agree with hitting/spanking/dragging/slapping a child. It
shows the stupidity of the parent----one who has never learned to deal
with their own frustrations and anger in an adult fashion. Do I always
act in an adult fashion myself? No; but I try. I can't say I've never
spanked my kids because, maybe not often, but I have. It has been on the
bottom with my bare hand, and even that I admit shows an immaturity I
had at the time. Kind of silly too, it was, because the few times I did
it, I can recall the child having diapers on, and 1)what did I think I
was teaching and 2) thru all that padding I'm sure they never even
felt it. Real stupid!

As I observe parents in public settings who are hitting/spanking their
kids, it's always a case of the parent being out of control. Sometimes
you can even see the parent egg the child on, just so the big adult can
hit. One situation I recall was really ironic in that the child hit
someone, so the mom says "hitting isn't nice" as she hits the child.

As a child I don't recall ever being spanked. I witnessed it with a
sister; but never myself was on the receiving end of it. It's
interesting to note, possibly, how today her home is much more chaotic
and filled with verbal abuse. Not sure if any conclusions can be made
from that or not.

It is great that people posting to this topic adhere to the no spanking
rule, and also attest to the effectiveness of such by looking at their
children's successess. But a question came to my mind: After having
been spanked/hit as a child, as some above have stated, how did you
succeed at growing into the good adults you are? It doesn't seem to be
whether you were or weren't spanked/hit as a child that determined your
outcomes. And you didn't or don't plan on using physical punishment with
your children. So what is it that makes one child end up in the court
system and another not, if spanking/hitting seems to play such an
important role?

Donna

Marg Petersen

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <35142A41...@artnet.com>, Donna <2b...@artnet.com> wrote:
>
> As a child I don't recall ever being spanked. I witnessed it with a
>sister; but never myself was on the receiving end of it. It's
>interesting to note, possibly, how today her home is much more chaotic
>and filled with verbal abuse. Not sure if any conclusions can be made
>from that or not.
>
> It is great that people posting to this topic adhere to the no spanking
>rule, and also attest to the effectiveness of such by looking at their
>children's successess. But a question came to my mind: After having
>been spanked/hit as a child, as some above have stated, how did you
>succeed at growing into the good adults you are? It doesn't seem to be
>whether you were or weren't spanked/hit as a child that determined your
>outcomes. And you didn't or don't plan on using physical punishment with
>your children. So what is it that makes one child end up in the court
>system and another not, if spanking/hitting seems to play such an
>important role?
>
> Donna

Good question. For myself (and I can only answer from my own
personal feelings and thoughts), although I wasn't spanked very
often (hardly ever as a matter of fact), I did, however, see my
brother being spanked quite often. That most definitely had an
impact on me. The first impact was of FEAR of the parent doing
the spanking. Respect certainly had nothing to do with it for
me. Secondly, the unreasonableness of the act (spanking) as it
pertained to my brother. (He was sometimes spanked for very
little reason. Perhaps the old "spank boys but not girls was
in action here. I really don't have the answer for that.)
Thirdly, since I cared a whole lot for my brother, I FELT for
him and what was happening to him. (We also talked a LOT about
his punishments after the fact.) A lot of my decision to NOT
spank MY kids came from those discussions. His feelings or
anger/rage at the parent doing the spanking. His feelings of
insecurity and incompetence that were a direct result of the
spankings. These *feelings* that he had, overrode any sense
of respect that the spankings were supposed to instill. He
had nothing but disdain for those spanking him and of course,
could hardly wait to get big enough to retaliate.

I never wanted my kids to ever feel that way toward ME or their
father. I wanted respect from my kids but I was aware enough
to realize that respect is *earned*. And since I felt that NO
respect was earned by spanking, I opted to NOT spank. It was
a risk (in a way) as I had NO model to go on. I did a lot of
reading on alternative methods of instilling proper behavior in
kids and I did a lot of listening to my kids and watching. I
questioned my OWN motives when I even FELT that I was coming
close to spanking. And I always found some other method to
deal with the situation.

I had people tell me that my kids would turn out to be axe
murderers and/or drug addicts. That they would have NO
respect for a parent who never spanked and that they would
NEVER have instilled in them a sense of right and wrong
and that they would be spoiled rotten kids.

This turned out to NOT be the case at all. What DID happen,
is that because I and their father never spanked but instead
talked to the child about their behavior, pointed out WHY
their behavior was not acceptable and offered rewards for
appropriate behavior (other than that they wouldn't get
spanked), our kids actually began to take responsibility
for their own behavior onto themselves. All 3 of our children
have a very heightened sense of inner morality. They behave
*properly* because they believe it is the "right thing to
do" rather than from fear of retaliation/punishment.

webg...@javanet.com

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>,
bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:

>
> LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >Children subjected to any and
> >all forms of corporal punishment are overrepresented in the criminal
> >and juvenile offender population. Thus, while not all children
> >subjected to corporal punishment are represented in these populations,
> >the probability increases in the presence of corporal punishment.
> >
>
> Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
> both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
> juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>
> -- bostnbob
>
>
In either case, and simply put, it seems very bizarre to physically hit a
child in order to teach that child to conform to the norms of society...a
society which dictates that hitting another person is illegal.

Go figure!

Stacy Alexander

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Chris wrote:

> constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
> between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
> been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and everyone else
should be in jail? Yeah right.

The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Denise Duggan
HyperMommy to Jimmy (10/93) & Joey (9/95)
Once and (probably) Future Student
Computer Programmer
and all around interesting person :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frank Bloater

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

He who loves his son will
whip him often,
in order that he may rejoice at
the way he turns out.
Ecclesiasticus 30:1
Catholic Holy Bible RSV

Gerald Alborn

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>
>Chris wrote:
>
>> constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect
relationship
>> between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which
have
>> been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus,
1991) is
>
>So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and
everyone else
>should be in jail? Yeah right.
>
>The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each
other. Hope
>you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your
messages.
>

By all means, then clue everyone in on what you perceive to be funny in
all this.

-Jerry-

Emma

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.

If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.

If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.

If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.

If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.

If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.

If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.

If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.

If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.

If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.

If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
the world.

Roy

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

Lenny Schafer <sch...@netcom.com> wrote:

<a lot of stuff that is going to the wrong newsgroups>

Please note that I have trimmed accordingly. Suggest you do the same.

Roy

Chris

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

HyperMommy (dug...@nettally.com, NOT to be confused with cddugan) wrote:
: Chris wrote:

: > constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
: > between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
: > been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

: So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and everyone else
: should be in jail? Yeah right.

You misunderstand the nature of correlation. This figures are
between-group differences. They do not imply that every single member of
each group looks like the mean average for that group. The fact that you
and your family are not in jail does not constitute evidence that the
research is wrong any more than the existence of people who have smoked
and don't have cancer disproves the research linking smoking to cancer.

Most spanked children do not grow up to be criminals. However,
the minority who do is a significantly larger percentage of that group
than the minority of never-spanked children who grow up to be criminals
(Straus, 1991).

Chris

REFERENCE

Steve Schofield

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:

I agree with every word of the above statements. I have a poster like
this in my sunday school class room but I also think that children who
are spanked are far better behaved(in general) than kids who aren't.

Steve Schofield


Harleygirl

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

Emma, thank you for this! I remember this as a child growing up... and
even today, they're STILL words to live by...

Thanks again,
HG

Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<3514DDEE...@globalnet.co.uk>...


> If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
>
> If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.
>

>>---SNIPPED

Emma

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to


Harleygirl wrote:

> Emma, thank you for this! I remember this as a child growing up... and
> even today, they're STILL words to live by...
>
> Thanks again,
> HG

Dont mention it. I wish I could say that I wrote it.....but I just passed
on the message :o)

Deacon Blues

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.


>If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.

>If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.
>If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.
>If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.
>If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.
>If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.
>If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.
>If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.
>If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.
>If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
>the world.

And if a child lives with a dog, he learns judgement, responsibility,
and to turn around three times before going to sleep.
------
People don't vote because voting changes nothing.
Voting changes nothing because elected officials are powerless.
Government isn't run by elected officials but by civil service lifers.
The greatest threat to democracy wasn't communism after all.
It was elimination of the spoils system.

Vote for Deacon Blues
Candidate for US Dogcatcher General in year 2000
Constitutional Anarchy Party
"Anarchy is evil because it is unstable. It leaves a power void.
Constitution anarchy eliminates destabilization and thwarts despotism."


HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

Chris wrote:

> Most spanked children do not grow up to be criminals. However,
> the minority who do is a significantly larger percentage of that group
> than the minority of never-spanked children who grow up to be criminals
> (Straus, 1991).

I believe I see where you're coming from. However, before these studies can be said to
"prove" anything I would like to see them compared to some type of control group. For
instance, how many __________ (insert whatever you would consider to be a successful group
of people here -- CEOs, congressmen (questionable, eh? :) ), clergymen, whatever) were
spanked as a child. I'm sure you will also find that a greater number of this group were
spanked than were not. It proves nothing.--

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <3514e38e....@nntp.cntfl.com>,

lyra@nospam_interoz.com wrote:
>
> On 21 Mar 1998 05:34:51 GMT, lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann
> Hemingway) wrote:
>
> >In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
> >>
> >>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> >presence of corporal punishment.
> >>>
>
> Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> offender population show a well below average level of education.
> Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> education.

Brenda, causality cannot be proven in either case. It is interesting to
note, however, that spanking also correlates positively with lower
education levels! Do you have research evidence on juveniles in the
offender population that has ruled out corporal punishment as a
potentially contributing factor, and shown that lack of education is the
is the true cause of offending? If so, please post citations.

LaVonne

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <35148267...@nettally.com>,

HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>
> Chris wrote:
>

> The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
> you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

I am glad you are reading and reacting to the messages posted by those of
us who oppose corporal punishment, and who have successfully parented
without resorting to looking in the eyes of our children, raising our
hands, and striking their small bodies in the name of discipline.

The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being
said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
beats apathy any day!

dol...@coffey.com

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

>In article <35148267...@nettally.com>,
> HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris wrote:
>>

>> The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
>> you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

>The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being


>said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
>beats apathy any day!

>LaVonne

I have to contribute to this. My father DID spank us when it was
NECESSARY. Other than birthday spankings, we got paddled for doing
dangerous things--to emphasize the point. My father NEVER hit us in
anger and five of the six of us are productive, well-balanced adults.
(The jury is still out on the sixth).

The only other time I can remember being spanked was when my sister
and I were in laughing fits in bed and couldn't stop. We KNEW Dad was
gonna come in and swat us once if we didn't stop and it just made us
laugh harder. The last time he did it, it had no effect at all. He
gave it up.

Come to think of it, we got separate bedrooms not long after
that...... I wonder why?

>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


--
Loryn, who is waiting to hear from eight publishers...
(and is staying 39 until she sells one of her books)


ave...@hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

[...]


> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> >presence of corporal punishment.
> >>>
>
> Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> offender population show a well below average level of education.
> Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> education.

Or that a larger and larger segment of the youth population is
ineducable, in good schools or bad.

It IS OK, if not PC, to acknowledge that Just Plain Stupid
people are stupid--even if they are only kids.


>
> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more

> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
> >>
>
> Quite possible.

_I_ lack respect for legitimate authority--and every other kind--
and I never served a minute of jail time. I wonder if being
clever and intelligent and self-educated had anything to do
with that outcome? 8).

Nope, I vote for ''Losers will be losers.'' Makes more sense.


>
> Remove "nospam" to reply via email
>
> If Life was a Highway, I'd be in a ditch
>
> Bright Blessings
> Brenda Smeby
> ICQ#4128184
>
>

a.

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <3515adb4...@news.bright.net>,

cfr...@removethis.bright.net (Deacon Blues) wrote:
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
> >If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.
> >If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.
> >If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.
> >If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.
> >If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.
> >If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.
> >If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.
> >If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.
> >If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.
> >If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
> >the world.
>
> And if a child lives with a dog, he learns judgement, responsibility,
> and to turn around three times before going to sleep.

Actually there is evidence that pets help children learn good judgement
and responsibility. As for turning around three times before going to
sleep -- I have a story:

We had a dog (now deceased) who dug a hole outside our garage. She (the
dog) would dig down to cool dirt, turn around three or so times, and
settle in for a nap. One hot summer afternoon, I was sitting in the
backyard swing, and noticed fast and furious digging coming from the dog
spot, combined with a lot of turning and twisting. I looked more
closely and saw denim poking out of the dog hole. Walking back, I said;
"Honey, what are you doing?" "Trying to see what it feels like to be a
dog." she responded.

Yes, children learn what they live with, including digging holes and
turning around three times before sleeping **and** including hitting
when their parents hit them in the name of discipline.

LaVonne

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <6f68sm$fn9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

ave...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <3514e38e....@nntp.cntfl.com>,
> lyra@nospam_interoz.com wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> > >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> > >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> > >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> > >presence of corporal punishment.
> > >>>
> >
> > Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> > offender population show a well below average level of education.
> > Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> > grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> > education.
>
> Or that a larger and larger segment of the youth population is
> ineducable, in good schools or bad.

I guess that would depend on our definition of "ineducable" -- don't you
think? And do you have any evidence to show that this "ineducable" population
is increasing?

Some individuals are more academically inclined than others. Ability levels
differ as well.


>
> It IS OK, if not PC, to acknowledge that Just Plain Stupid
> people are stupid--even if they are only kids.

I'm now becoming confused. It is okay not to be an academic. Where does
"just plain stupid" fit in here -- and what exactle does this have to do with
corporal punishment?


> >
> > >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
> > >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> > >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
> > >>
> >
> > Quite possible.
>
> _I_ lack respect for legitimate authority--and every other kind--
> and I never served a minute of jail time. I wonder if being
> clever and intelligent and self-educated had anything to do
> with that outcome? 8).

I would suspect so. What is "just plain stupid?" Please define.

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

: I am glad you are reading and reacting to the messages posted by those of


: us who oppose corporal punishment, and who have successfully parented
: without resorting to looking in the eyes of our children, raising our

: hands, and striking their small bodies in the name of discipline.

: The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being


: said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
: beats apathy any day!

: LaVonne

: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


I am in the progress of trying to put on my Spree site a list of books
that do not encourage spanking for the discipline of children. Please
check what I have so far (includes a book by Dr. Sears and a book and
cassette by Barbara Coloroso) and let me know of any other non-spanking
books I can add!

http://members.spree.com/dery

Thanks!

Daisy

BTW, can anyone tell me what this thread has to do with soc.men and
alt.mens-rights? Since I see no relation, follow-ups to my post will
not go to those groups.

Randy Cox

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <6f13h3$9pa$2...@news.cudenver.edu>, on 21 Mar 1998,
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu, Chris says

> Causality is indeed tricky, and correlational data alone do not

>constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
>between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
>been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

>the most parsimonious explanation for the available data taken as a whole.
>A recent study by Straus et al. (1997) has lent this interpretation added
>weight by showing that spanking appears to exhibit a dose-dependent
>negative effect over time. Children who were spanked the most at the
>beginning of the study showed, as a group, the most increases in lying,
>cheating and antisocial behaviors two years later. This is consistent

>with a cause-and-effect relationship between spanking and long-term
>behavior problems.

Yet, most parents spank their children. Most social scientists do not
believe that spanking is a major social problem. Most physicians,
though medical science researchers have ignored the phenomenon, do not
believe that spanking children is harmful for them. It is clear that
the practice can not be called 'safe' by any rational person. It is
clear, too, that no measurable long-term benefit has been uncovered.
Nearly every physician and family/child counselor can identify several
alternative child management methods that do not involve hitting and
hurting; that are even positive. Spanking's dark sides are treated like
a secret or like an unmentionable. That behavior and belief contrast
with what is known is the eternal curiosity and almost everyone seems
beguiled.

Randy Cox


HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

dol...@coffey.com wrote:

> (The jury is still out on the sixth).

LOL!!! I think that same jury is out on my sister and my brother in law. Seems that if
you look hard enough you'll find one in every family :)

> laugh harder. The last time he did it, it had no effect at all. He
> gave it up.
>
> Come to think of it, we got separate bedrooms not long after
> that...... I wonder why?

I've been there with my kids!!! Thanks for brightening my morning :)

mic...@hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,

He who tears Ecclesiasticus 30:1
out of his bible,
is exercising discretion
with intelligence.

Mick.

Timothy J. Butler

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

mic...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,
> ha...@interserv.com (Frank Bloater) wrote:
> >
> >
> > He who loves his son will
> > whip him often,
> > in order that he may rejoice at
> > the way he turns out.
> > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> > Catholic Holy Bible RSV
>
> He who tears Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> out of his bible,
> is exercising discretion
> with intelligence.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If
anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described
in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy,
God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
holy city, which are described in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

Christine Insell

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Spanking is wrong PERIOD!

When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence

yet when you strike your minor child, that's called discipline!

GO FIGURE!

Try talking to your kids and RELAXING - parents who spank have lost
their COOL!

Sorry, but it's reality,
Christine
mom to 13 month old Breanna who will NEVER be hit

Gen. JC Christian

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

>When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence

Maybe so, but it is God's law that Men have dominance over their wives. My
wife is a better mate after having visited my punishment room a number of
times.

>Try talking to your kids and RELAXING - parents who spank have lost
>their COOL!

I'm in total control when I'm in the punishment room.

>Sorry, but it's reality,
>Christine
>mom to 13 month old Breanna who will NEVER be hit

Well, you can raise all the sluts you want, but keep them away from our good
Christian families.

Gen. JC Christian
General of the Militias
CINCMIL
Persicos odi, puer, apparatus!
http://extra.newsguy.com/~satire/militia.htm

Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Frank Bloater wrote:

> He who loves his son will
> whip him often,
> in order that he may rejoice at
> the way he turns out.
> Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> Catholic Holy Bible RSV

Well said.

Ric

Richard Gaines

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Marg Petersen wrote:

> <snip> I did, however, see my
> brother being spanked quite often. That most definitely had an
> impact on me. The first impact was of FEAR of the parent doing
> the spanking. Respect certainly had nothing to do with it for
> me. Secondly, the unreasonableness of the act (spanking) as it
> pertained to my brother. (He was sometimes spanked for very
> little reason. Perhaps the old "spank boys but not girls was
> in action here. I really don't have the answer for that.)
> Thirdly, since I cared a whole lot for my brother, I FELT for
> him and what was happening to him. (We also talked a LOT about
> his punishments after the fact.)

> Marg

Interesting point... I don't think spanking should ever be used as a tool to
frighten another child as an observer, this seems rather sadistic, to say the
least. However I don't regard the 'spank boys but not girls' idea is old. I have
had occasion to administer the odd spank to my son but I'd never dream of striking
my daughter. Maybe I'm just an old fashioned dad... never thought I'd say that...

Ric


Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to heavy. We're
not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids with blunt instruments,
just a little smack to tell them they've been bad. A child's reaction to a
calm, rational argument is usually a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the
thought "hey, so long as I stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get
away with anything".

The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

Ric


webg...@javanet.com

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,

lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann Hemingway) wrote:
>
> In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
> >
> >LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> presence of corporal punishment.
> >>
> >
> >Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
> likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
> >
> >-- bostnbob
>
> My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
> a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
> high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
> martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
> definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
> was mostly maternal.
>
> Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
>
> Lefty
> >
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If one case does not a nation prove, Carol Ann, then add the cases of my
chidren as well. They were never spanked. They are all high achievers, well
educated and, aside from the one in school now, are all financially
successful, compassionate people who make useful contributions to society. In
addition to their never having been spanked, they were also taught not to
engage in violence against others. None of them, to date, have ever been in a
fight and they've managed to get through life very well without the violence.

A proud mother,
Stacy Alexander

Carolyn Jean Fairman

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Richard Gaines <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:

> I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to
> heavy. We're not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids
> with blunt instruments, just a little smack to tell them they've
> been bad. A child's reaction to a calm, rational argument is usually
> a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the thought "hey, so long as I
> stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get away with
> anything".

That little smack also tells them bigger people can hit littler people
and that hitting is a way to communicate. Not a message I
particularly want to, er, imprint on my children.

Furthermore, you create a false dichotomy in response to rightly
commenting on the usual one of natual consequences and other forms of
parenting versus only spanking children. ;-)

Your dichotomy comes from the view that the opposite to spanking is
only a calm rational argument and _nothing else_. I disagree. From
the Faber/Mazlish books, as but one example, like How to Talk so Kids
Listen and listen to they'll talk, the point is:

1)have them involved in talking about what they did wrong (less
boredom that way). In other words, say things like we use words not
hitting if we are angry at our little brothers, and you hit Jimmy
instead of talking or drawing angry feelings or getting me, what could
you have said or done instead? (the irony of parents who then whack
the kid for hitting Jimmy just floors me).

2)have them involved in talking about WHY it is wrong (less
incomprehesion that way). See how Jimmy cried when you hit him, you
would hurt too if you were hit. (Hence, don't hit kids, _or_ let them
hit each other).

3)Natural consequences. The talking isn't the discipline! Since you
hit Jimmy, what are the consequences, time out, playing away from him
for a while (and the toys stay with Jimmy, a *really* good motivator
for kids to master better conflict resolution..), etc. There are tons
of natural consequences, and many can be stated clearly ahead of time
and right when you think things are tense, to help kids learn to
internalize this and choose alternatives instead.

> The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round
> their 'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

The number of times folks have shown people will only see what they
want to see is positively amazing. I've seen many a brattish kid get
spanked on the bottom and then repeat the misbehavior -- after all, no
one talked about why it was wrong, what else to do, the kid just gets
pissed, nor can the parents then do anything more than spank the kid
again because that's the main tool they seemed to have and also I
sense the feeling that it is the last resort and once used you can't
go back to other methods even if the parent values them.

>Ric

--
18 Oct '96, the phrase "You Play Like a Girl" ==If equality is viewed
took on an entirely different meaning-American ==as a loss, what does
Basketball League inaugural game. GO LASERS! ==that tell you about the
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~cfairman/ ==previous situation?

Christine Insell

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Richard Gaines wrote:
>
> I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to heavy. We're
> not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids with blunt instruments,
> just a little smack to tell them they've been bad. A child's reaction to a
> calm, rational argument is usually a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the
> thought "hey, so long as I stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get
> away with anything".
>
> The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
> 'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.
>
> Ric


Do you "smack" your wife or your girlfriend when she's been bad? If the
answer is No, then why do you do this to your children.

Do you like being "smacked" when you are bad. If the answer is No, then
why do you do this to your children!

Maybe if people quit beating and smacking or tapping or hitting or
whatever you want to call it, then our society would be less violent.
It starts in the home - there are OTHER forms of discipline People!

We're the grown-ups - start acting like it for christ's sake.

Christine

Emma

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Richard Gaines wrote:

Well that was a convincing and well constructed argument.

>
>
> Ric


Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Christine Insell wrote:
>
> Do you "smack" your wife or your girlfriend when she's been bad? If the
> answer is No, then why do you do this to your children.
>
> Do you like being "smacked" when you are bad. If the answer is No, then
> why do you do this to your children!
>
> Maybe if people quit beating and smacking or tapping or hitting or
> whatever you want to call it, then our society would be less violent.
> It starts in the home - there are OTHER forms of discipline People!

Such as?

Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Christine Insell wrote:

> Do you "smack" your wife or your girlfriend when she's been bad? If the
> answer is No, then why do you do this to your children.

I do not "smack" adults because I can have a rational discussion with them, and
agree to differ if all else fails. Try doing this with a five year old who's
decided to see *just* how much he can get away with, for the hell of it.

> Do you like being "smacked" when you are bad. If the answer is No, then
> why do you do this to your children!

As above.

> Maybe if people quit beating and smacking or tapping or hitting or
> whatever you want to call it, then our society would be less violent.
> It starts in the home - there are OTHER forms of discipline People!
>

> We're the grown-ups - start acting like it for christ's sake.
>
> Christine

The essence of my arg, Christine, is that, yes, I disagree with smacking *if* it is
merely a reaction of rage in the parent. Indeed, we are adults, and must deal with
our frustration at our kids privately and rationally, without involving them. Any
smacking I do is as a laid down punishment, not venting my own anger (I can get a
punchbag and boxing gloves for that). My son knows *exactly* where the boundary is,
and what he'll get if he transgresses it. When my son has developed the capacity
for reasoned and sustained argument, the smacking will cease. It is simply a matter
of understanding that we are dealing with minds which are not yet capable of
sustained arguments, merely short, blunt words or actions, straight to the point.

Ric


Gerald Alborn

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

>> In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,


>> ha...@interserv.com (Frank Bloater) wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > He who loves his son will
>> > whip him often,
>> > in order that he may rejoice at
>> > the way he turns out.
>> > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
>> > Catholic Holy Bible RSV

As a child, Hitler was whipped often. I wonder how many rejoiced at the
way he turned out.

-Jerry-


Theodore M. Seeber

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Timothy J. Butler wrote:

> I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If
> anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described
> in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy,
> God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
> holy city, which are described in this book.
> Revelation 22:18-19

True, but Ecclesiastes isn't a book of Prophecy, it's a book of Proverbs.
Also, since the Bible hadn't been compiled yet, Revelations could have
only been talking about one book: itself.
We sometimes forget that for *centuries* before the Bible was compiled, it
existed as separate books and letters.
Even the Torah was at one time five separate volumes.

The printing press spoiled us. I wonder if the "sola scriptura" would
have been formulated if there was no set scripture to base it upon.
Ted

mailto:seebe...@bigfoot.com
http://www.teleport.com/~seebert


Christine Insell

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Lenny,

Defending one's COUNTRY, and enforcing the law, and trying to kill a
cancer that is going to kill you and pro-choice are pretty hot topics
and my opinions and feelings of each are not what's in question. But so
you know where I stand - i support the military 100% if the cause is
just, I do not believe in unnecessary force *some* police officer use, I
support any medical treatment program that will help save a life and I
am pro-choice to the extent that the mother has been counseled and given
all her options.

These are very emotional debates above Lenny as is spanking but it's
simple really.....

I want to know WHY people feel it's okay to smack little kids when if
one adult strikes another that's called battery. Can someone explain
this to me please?


Christine


<snipped prior posts>


> Let's test your violence tolerance quotient:
>
<snip>
>
> How do we determine which violence is ok and which isn't? Especially if as you
> argue kids can't really separate good from bad acts of violence.
>
> Love, lenny
> P.S. I do not spank my kids, but I retain the right to do so).
> --
> Can't keep up with all my writings on the newsgroups? Have the best
> emailed to you in Digest format <I'm not archived on Dejanews>. Send an
> email to me with Subject: Subscribe Schafer Digest [and your full name]
>
> using spamgard(tm). To send all other email, include the password Lenny
> anywhere in the Subject: line. "Et Hoc Tuie"

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Timothy J. Butler (tbu...@ford.com) wrote:
: mic...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >
: > In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,

: > ha...@interserv.com (Frank Bloater) wrote:
: > >
: > >
: > > He who loves his son will
: > > whip him often,
: > > in order that he may rejoice at
: > > the way he turns out.
: > > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
: > > Catholic Holy Bible RSV
: >
: > He who tears Ecclesiasticus 30:1

: > out of his bible,
: > is exercising discretion
: > with intelligence.

: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If

: anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described
: in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy,
: God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
: holy city, which are described in this book.
: Revelation 22:18-19


Except, of course, that there is no book called Ecclesiasticus. It is
called Ecclesiastes. And there isn't an Ecclesiastes 30:1. So anybody
who *does* have Ecclesiasticus 30:1 in thrir Bible should tear it out.

And then, to deal with your quote, Revelation is a book that was written
by John. It was not added to the Bible until much later. "This book" is,
of course, the book of Revelation.

Marg Petersen

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <35180490...@cableol.com>,
Well, it's as old as the hills, as they say. (SPanking boys but not
girls). I believe that ALL spanking is destructive to kids. I can't
see ANY benefit to it whatsoever, other than relieving the parent of
stress and rage. And there are *other* better ways of doing that than
taking it out on one's kids.

I DO believe that spanking is wrong, however if you are going to do
it, you should be equally applied to both sexes. Just what message
do you think you are sending to both of your children? IMO, to the
boy, you are saying that you consider him of LESS value than your
girl. Which can sometimes (not always mind you) set up an inner
conflict in your son to hate and despise all girls *because* they
aren't subjected to the same kind of punishment. To the girl, you
are reinforcing the MALE PARENT BAD or at least, males hit. She
may or may not learn that that is acceptable. Or conversely, you
may set up a scenario where the girl believes that girls are better
than boys *because* they don't get spanked. I didn't exactly WANT
to be spanked, but there was certainly something (for me at any
rate) that said that to my dad, *I* wasn't as important in his life
as my brother. That MY behavior was excuseable because I was a
girl and I most definitely wound up resenting that. My brother did
as well. At least for a time. As I said above, we talked about
his getting spanked (my brother and I that is, there was NO talking
to our parents about this issue or about equality of treatment), and
my brother at least was able to believe and understand that *I*
didn't condone the treatment he received, nor was I *pleased* by it.

>Ric
>
Marg


--
Marg Petersen Member PSEB: Official Sonneteer JLP-SOL
god...@peak.org http://www.peak.org/~goddess
"At ease Ensign, before you sprain something." - Capt. Janeway

Marg Petersen

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <351806E6...@cableol.com>,

Richard Gaines <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:
>
>
>I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to heavy. We're
>not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids with blunt instruments,
>just a little smack to tell them they've been bad. A child's reaction to a
>calm, rational argument is usually a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the
>thought "hey, so long as I stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get
>away with anything".

Then the problem is in the parent's *delivery* and/or they are
making the explanation much too long. There ARE other punishments
that are preferable to spanking/swatting a child's rear. You might
consider them. Plus, if you find yourself making loooong explanations,
you have lost the battle already. A simple and well defined NO does
it for those children who know you're not kidding.

>The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
>'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

And you believe that swatting those children would help?
My children NEVER misbehaved in public. Why? Because they
always knew that special privileges would be taken away
from them if they did. Things THEY wanted to do/have would
not be forthcoming IF their behavior was not exemplary. My
husband and I took our kids out to eat from the time they
were infants. We never had a problem with them misbehaving
in restaurants. They KNEW that they were supposed to behave
and they did.

Marg Petersen

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <35183054...@cableol.com>,

Richard Gaines <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:
>It is simply a matter
>of understanding that we are dealing with minds which are not yet capable of
>sustained arguments, merely short, blunt words or actions, straight to the point.

My 3 year old grandaughter understands NO very well, thank you.
And she knows that if she continues, she will be sent to her room
for a timeout. No spanking is necessary.

Steve McCanse

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:34:47 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>
>Richard Gaines wrote:


>
>> Frank Bloater wrote:
>>
>> > He who loves his son will
>> > whip him often,
>> > in order that he may rejoice at
>> > the way he turns out.
>> > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
>> > Catholic Holy Bible RSV
>>

>> Well said.
>
>Well that was a convincing and well constructed argument.

' The burning of witches and heretics must, for now, be held in
abeyance until the masses return to righteousness'

- The Catholic Encyclopedia

Steve

Scott Vandewalle

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

.net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services

girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
behaved, for the most part anyway.
Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
may be why i think that.
In alt.parenting.spanking
bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net

Marg Petersen

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <6fakk5$2...@examiner.concentric.net>,

Scott Vandewalle <Scot...@viking.cris.com> wrote:
>.net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
>Organization: Concentric Internet Services
>
>
>
>girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
>behaved, for the most part anyway.
>Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
>may be why i think that.

Careful, your sexism is showing. *I* was not *sweet* as a child
and I'm still not. Neither was my daughter nor is my grandaughter.
We get into trouble just like boys do. Take it out on us equally,
or not at all. thank you.

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <351841...@ca.flomerics.com>,

ch...@ca.flomerics.com wrote:
>
>
> I want to know WHY people feel it's okay to smack little kids when if
> one adult strikes another that's called battery. Can someone explain
> this to me please?

I have been asking this exact question for years, Christine, on newsgroups and
in other contexts as well. I've heard a lot of rhetoric, a lot of excuses, as
well as healthy doses of denial, defensiveness, and anger.

Throughout every response I've received runs the thread "I hit my children
because I can!" And as long as assault and battery of children remains legal
in this country, children will continue to be hit in the name of discipline.
Not because they are different from adults, not because they deserve to be
hit, not because hitting is more effective than nonviolent parenting, but
rather ****"because I can!****

LaVonne

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to
> Spanking is wrong PERIOD!

>
> When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence
>
> yet when you strike your minor child, that's called discipline!
>
> GO FIGURE!

We have assault laws that protect every single member of our society
except our smallest, weakest, youngest, most vulnerable and most
defenseless members, our children! These tiny people deserve more, not
less protection, yet they remain the sole members of a legally
assaultable population! How anyone can, for even one second, believe
this to be logical, moral, or just is beyond my comprehension.

JC

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Scott Vandewalle wrote:

> .net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
> Organization: Concentric Internet Services
>
> girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
> behaved, for the most part anyway.
> Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
> may be why i think that.

===================

Let me get this straight - you dole out punishment to children based on "having a
soft spot" for them rather than what they have done wrong?

I don't think that showing favoritism is an effective form of discipline. You are
hitting boys for being boys, and going easy on girls for being girls. Nothing more.

jc

===================

JC

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Marg Petersen wrote:

>girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better

> >behaved, for the most part anyway.
> >Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
> >may be why i think that.
>

> Careful, your sexism is showing. *I* was not *sweet* as a child
> and I'm still not. Neither was my daughter nor is my grandaughter.
> We get into trouble just like boys do. Take it out on us equally,
> or not at all. thank you.
>
> Marg
>

====================

Thank you Marg for pointing this out. It reminds me once of when my boss'
wife had just had their first child (a boy) when my boss asked a bunch of
"seasoned" parents "... is it easier to raise a boy or a girl?" To which one
woman replied "its NEVER easy......"

jc

=====================


carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <6fakk5$2...@examiner.concentric.net>,

Scott Vandewalle <Scot...@viking.cris.com> wrote:
>
> .net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
> Organization: Concentric Internet Services
>
> girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
> behaved, for the most part anyway.
> Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
> may be why i think that.

Scott, I hope you can find a soft spot in your heart for all little children.
Little boys need and deserve as much love and respect as little girls. All
children, regardless of gender, deserve to live without fear of being hit/hurt
by their parents in the name of discipline.

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Christine Insell (ch...@ca.flomerics.com) wrote:

: Try talking to your kids and RELAXING - parents who spank have lost
: their COOL!

Not necessarily true. Although I don't believe in spanking, both my
husband and I were spanked as children and in my husband's case, it was
never done when the parent had lost their cool.

Daisy

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Richard Gaines (nos...@cableol.com) wrote:


: I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to heavy. We're
: not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids with blunt instruments,
: just a little smack to tell them they've been bad. A child's reaction to a
: calm, rational argument is usually a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the
: thought "hey, so long as I stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get
: away with anything".

Then how come the parents who start out with the intention of never
spanking but using alternatives that work have kids who behave well? I'm
thinking of Dr. William Sears and his kids: all 8 of them. He and his
wife never struck their children and I bet you they are great kids,
because the parents are determined to have good kids without spanking.
I'm also thinking of Barbara Coloroso ("Kids Are Worth It!") and her kids.
Talking does work. If it doesn't, the child has learned nothing about
respect and spanking him only makes him appear to respect.

: The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their


: 'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

What are "right on" parents?


Daisy

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Timothy J. Butler (tbu...@ford.com) wrote:
: Christine Insell wrote:
: >
: > Do you "smack" your wife or your girlfriend when she's been bad? If the
: > answer is No, then why do you do this to your children.
: >
: > Do you like being "smacked" when you are bad. If the answer is No, then

: > why do you do this to your children!
: >
: > Maybe if people quit beating and smacking or tapping or hitting or

: > whatever you want to call it, then our society would be less violent.
: > It starts in the home - there are OTHER forms of discipline People!

: Such as?


You've got to be kidding! Are you saying that no matter what your child
does, you spank him?

Read a few books and inform yourself...


de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Christine Insell (ch...@ca.flomerics.com) wrote:

: I want to know WHY people feel it's okay to smack little kids when if
: one adult strikes another that's called battery. Can someone explain
: this to me please?


: Christine


Add to that...

How is it that hockey players can beat the heck out of each other and
boxers, too, yet two people on the street fighting can be charged?

I just heard on the news the other day about a coach who slapped a skater
on the face for something he was doing to his partner (can't remember.)
The coach was charged with assault. It wasn't a slap that broke any bones
or anything; it probably didn't hurt anymore than a spanking. The coach
said he slapped for "corrective measures". Had they been his own children
(and younger), would he have been charged for assault? Probably not, yet
the action and purpose are the same...

Oh, and Christine, the answer is social conditionning.


Daisy

Elizabeth Ann Lewis

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

Hi,

I totally agree! I get really upset when I hear or see this sort of thing
going on in public like the malls. Sometimes, I have witnessed a mother
yelling at her child. This is can't tolerate either. If you are having
problems with your child in a public place, just pick them up and go
straight to your car and home. Why do anything other than that? Yelling
doesn't solve too much either. I know sometimes they can push the buttons
but being as calm as possible and letting them know they did wrong and put
them in their room or on a time out chair. Letting them know you are
angry or mad is fine but does yelling have to be involved. Sometimes, I
find myself wanting to yell and yes, I have yelled, but realized that this
doesn't work. I get angry and show sternness in my voice. My son knows
I'm mad.

Anyway, I just had to give my say because it really upsets me to hear that
there is spanking.

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

> In article <3517F0...@ca.flomerics.com>,
> ch...@ca.flomerics.com wrote:
> >
> > Spanking is wrong PERIOD!
> >
> > When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence
> >
> > yet when you strike your minor child, that's called discipline!
> >
> > GO FIGURE!
>
> We have assault laws that protect every single member of our society
> except our smallest, weakest, youngest, most vulnerable and most
> defenseless members, our children! These tiny people deserve more, not
> less protection, yet they remain the sole members of a legally
> assaultable population! How anyone can, for even one second, believe
> this to be logical, moral, or just is beyond my comprehension.
>

Hamilton

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

>
> : The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
> : 'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.


The two choices in parenting are not 'hit kids' and 'let them do
whatever they want'. Hitting doesn't work very well. But follow
through and firmness are critical. If one can't think of any way
to discipline a child that doesen't involve inflicting physical
pain, then they need to grow up a bit before they have kids.

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

I have sort of a mix of thoughts about this whole subject, so bear with
the disorder...

Have spankers thought about why the Canadian and American Paediatric
Societies do not recommend spanking?

Spankers, do you believe that your children can not be well-behaved
without spanking? Do you believe that parents who don't spank necessarily
have poorly behaved children? Do you think that in countries where it is
illegal to spank, the children are nothing but brats?

I look at my 5-month old and know that I will never spank her. We feel
terrible when we accidentally cut her skin when clipping her nails or when
she bonks her head against something and it hurts her, how in the world
could I possibly intentionally inflict pain on her? It makes me want to
cry, the thought of anyone hitting her, even if it is on the butt. She is
so precious to me. She's a human being. Certainly she deserves the right
to be respected?

One thing that makes me know I will never spank her is this: have you
ever thought about the first time a child is spanked? Think about it.
You've spent awhile protecting your child, taking care of her. She trusts
you. You're there when she hurts herself, needs food or just needs a hug.
Then one day, you hurt her intentionally. Put yourself in the child's
place: you look up at someone you love completely, you trust completely,
and they hit you so it hurts. (Please don't get into the nitpicking of
hitting vs. spanking: the first time you spank your child, you can not
tell me that they see the difference.) Your relationship is altered.
Even a small amount of trust must disappear when faced with that. Fear
enters the equation. Sure, after awhile, the child learns that you still
love him and gets used to you hurting him physically. But it doesn't
change the fact that something in the relationship has changed and it can
never completely return to what it was. It doesn't change the fact that
this child who trusted you so much now fears you. I suppose spankers
think that's a good thing. I don't know why. If you'd care to explain,
it would be most appreciated.

I believe a child is a human being. They come into a world where
everything is new and they have to learn just about everything. It takes
time for them to learn the rules, just as it takes time for them to learn
math or reading. It's all about learning. If a child isn't learning his
math well, then we spend more time trying to get him to learn it. We
don't hit him. When a child hasn't learned how to behave in some certain
way, however, hitting is considered appropriate. Why? What's the
difference? I just don't get it. In both cases, they haven't learned
something. Why is spanking appropriate in one and not the other? (As an
aside, spanking or hitting *used to* be considered appropriate for not
learning something in school.)

I don't want my child nor my future children to be afraid of me. I am
here to help them learn the workings of this world and what to do in it.
I started from birth explaining to my daughter things, even though I know
she doesn't understand yet. But she will. Someday. This doesn't mean
that I think she will never do anything wrong, but I am setting up a
relationship based on trust. I know she has her own will, and
circumstances permitting, I will let her explore her own will.

I hear parents in here saying that they spank when their child is being
defiant. I'd like to read examples of that. I truly do not understand
what situation "necessitates" spanking, so please share specific examples.
I've read things that if a child says, "F*** you" to you, they need a
spanking. To me it says that they are angry and haven't (yet) been taught
how deal with and express their anger. Spanking them doesn't teach them
what *to* do; it teaches them what *not* to do. You can tell them what
they're not supposed to do and then tell them what to do. Why do spankers
feel it's necessary to add physical pain to the whole thing?

My husband told me of a time when he was young and he and his younger
brother went up on the roof of the garage with their suits on. Their
father was furious. They were sent to their rooms as they waited for
their parents to decide what to do and their father to calm down. He went
into their room, talked to them about what had happened and then spanked
them. They were so upset by their dad being upset with them that they
never would have done such a thing again. The spanking was not necessary.
But it was seen as necessary, as though spanking them was what made it all
stick. But it really wasn't necessary.

I'm not here to convince spankers not to spank. But I would like to
discuss the whole thing. Sure, I'd prefer they didn't, but I don't expect
any change. I would like, however, that both sides try to listen to what
the other has to say. I've had a bit of my say here. Now, I would like
spankers to give *specific* experiences of when they spanked their child.
Perhaps I'll better understand (or perhaps I won't).

Daisy

Brenda Smeby

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:30:48 -0600, carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

>
>>
>> Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
>> offender population show a well below average level of education.
>> Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
>> grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
>> education.
>
>Brenda, causality cannot be proven in either case. It is interesting to
>note, however, that spanking also correlates positively with lower
>education levels! Do you have research evidence on juveniles in the
>offender population that has ruled out corporal punishment as a
>potentially contributing factor, and shown that lack of education is the
>is the true cause of offending? If so, please post citations.
>

Hmmm....interesting idea, and one that I would like to follow up on.
Actually, my research has not shown any correlations to spanking, in
either direction, but mainly concentrated on education levels, and
home environment, ie, broken families and abuse/neglect.

Obviously you've found some reports and such on the subject.
Could you tell me what those reports are and where I can find them?
I would very much like to add them to my research. If there is a
correlation there, I would like to see it.

(I'm not doubting you...I do research in the area of Juvenile
delinquency prevention from home, and havent found any articles
relating to spanking as yet.)

Remove "nospam" to reply via email

If Life was a Highway, I'd be in a ditch

Bright Blessings
Brenda Smeby
ICQ#4128184


Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I totally agree! I get really upset when I hear or see this sort of thing
> going on in public like the malls. Sometimes, I have witnessed a mother
> yelling at her child. This is can't tolerate either. If you are having
> problems with your child in a public place, just pick them up and go
> straight to your car and home. Why do anything other than that? Yelling
> doesn't solve too much either. I know sometimes they can push the buttons
> but being as calm as possible and letting them know they did wrong and put
> them in their room or on a time out chair. Letting them know you are
> angry or mad is fine but does yelling have to be involved. Sometimes, I
> find myself wanting to yell and yes, I have yelled, but realized that this
> doesn't work. I get angry and show sternness in my voice. My son knows
> I'm mad.
>
> Anyway, I just had to give my say because it really upsets me to hear that
> there is spanking.

Wait a minute. You talk about how much you hate yelling and then end by saying
that spanking upsets you. Sorry, but the two are related only inversely. The
parents I hear screaming the loudest are those who don't have their kids
properly disciplined and under control. Their kids ignore them because they
know that not listening to their parents has no negative consequences, like
a swat. I saw a great example at the mall yesterday. A prechooler just walked
away from her mother and set out to explore the mall. I was about to alert
security to the fact that there was a lost child when the mother appeared to
collect her. What followed was several attempts by the mother to coerce, trick,
convince, threaten, etc. the little girl to do what she wanted her to do - to
come back to Mommy. This woman was a master at "positive alternatives" to
spanking, including reminding the girl that the mother had told her many times
to come when she was told, giving her to the count of 5 to obey, begging her
to come, and so on. It was pathetic. I felt so sorry for them both. Here was a
child who had no trouble showing everyone in the mall exactly who was in charge.
I don't know how it ended up because I finally left in disgust.

After watching this 90's mother at work, I have little doubt that she adheres to
positive parenting as opposed to bad, bad punishment, thinks that spanking is
barbaric, and spends a good deal of her time trying to come up with more and
more positive strategies to try to bribe, convince, and cajole her daughter into
obeying her. I'd also guess that she spends a good deal of her time yelling (how
else could she get her daughter to pay attention to her?) and that she is
raising a brat.

Getting back to the title of this thread, that was one little girl who really
needed a good spanking. Oh, and I also think it is absolutely tragic to see
a parent yelling. To me, it's a sure sign that the parent isn't in control of
the situation. There is never a justification for raising your voice to
a child.

Harleygirl

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Timothy J. Butler <tbu...@ford.com> wrote in article
<35193F...@ford.com>...

> Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I totally agree! I get really upset when I hear or see this sort of
thing
> > going on in public like the malls. Sometimes, I have witnessed a
mother
> > yelling at her child.

When I was growing up, my mother was a "screamer", as well... and I can
tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the kids learn EARLY ON to just
IGNORE the screaming! I've deliberately AVOIDED being a "screamer" because
of my own experience. My kids have learned that when mommy starts speaking
REALLLLLY softly, that something is "wrong"... <g> I've also added
something to MY repertoire that my kids call "the LOOK"... <grin>... and
even when my 18-year old daughter sees "the look" on my face, it gets HER
attention! LOL! ...

This is can't tolerate either. If you are having
> > problems with your child in a public place, just pick them up and go
> > straight to your car and home. Why do anything other than that?
Yelling
> > doesn't solve too much either.

Just picking up and leaving is NOT always an option...

I know sometimes they can push the buttons
> > but being as calm as possible and letting them know they did wrong and
put
> > them in their room or on a time out chair. Letting them know you are
> > angry or mad is fine but does yelling have to be involved. Sometimes,
I
> > find myself wanting to yell and yes, I have yelled, but realized that
this
> > doesn't work. I get angry and show sternness in my voice. My son
knows
> > I'm mad.

::nodding:: yep! :)

My 11-year old used to do stuff like this... she was diagnosed just last
year with "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" (which in retrospect makes a LOT
of sense!) <g>

> After watching this 90's mother at work, I have little doubt that she
adheres to
> positive parenting as opposed to bad, bad punishment, thinks that
spanking is
> barbaric, and spends a good deal of her time trying to come up with more
and
> more positive strategies to try to bribe, convince, and cajole her
daughter into
> obeying her. I'd also guess that she spends a good deal of her time
yelling (how
> else could she get her daughter to pay attention to her?) and that she is
> raising a brat.
>

All conjecture, tho... we CAN'T go around "judging" people unless we've
walked a mile in THEIR shoes!

> Getting back to the title of this thread, that was one little girl who
really
> needed a good spanking. Oh, and I also think it is absolutely tragic to
see
> a parent yelling. To me, it's a sure sign that the parent isn't in
control of
> the situation. There is never a justification for raising your voice to
> a child.
>

not so much "justification"... as necessity... personally, I have learned
to save "yelling" for potentially dangerous situations... i.e., my 16 month
old son has discovered that crossing the street can be cool... <g>... and
occasionally tries to run into the street... when he hears me yell, he
stops in his tracks! I then go remove him from the situation (the curb)
and redirect (put him in his carseat, take him back in the house,
whatever)... in the case above, I think the sound of my yelling simply
_surprises_him, giving me that extra second or two to catch up with him...
he may be only 16 months, but he's QUICK!!!!! LOL...

Finally, re: spanking... I came from an EXTREMELY abusive household. There
was no "talking" to, or "redirection"... both my parents were unavailable
due to alcoholism... my dad's idea of discipline was the belt! ... but I
digress...

I decided years ago that when *I* had kids, things were going to be
different... but I do feel that MY upbringing resurfaces from time to time.
Once in a while, when the kids misbehave, I admit that occasionally I *do*
feel the old "rage"... and have had to restrain myself from "physical"
discipline. What *I* do when I feel "that" way is something I learned from
MY therapist... *I* take a timeout! <grin> simple, but effective... I
put the baby in his crib for a moment and just go splash some water on my
face, or if it's my 11-year old "acting up", *I* remove MYself from the
situation... I go sit out in the front yard for a few minutes or take a
walk around the block... it works for ME... YMMV... <g>

As I mentioned earlier, I have an 18-year old daughter (who I'm just SOOO
proud of)... and recently she told me "Mom, I don't know HOW you put up
with me/us!"... <g> She was no "prize" as a kid, but now that she's grown,
she's like my best friend... so I guess I've done a pretty good job...
hehehe... :)

::stepping down from soapbox::

HG

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Timothy J. Butler wrote:

>
> Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> >
> Wait a minute. You talk about how much you hate yelling and then end by saying
> that spanking upsets you. Sorry, but the two are related only inversely. The
> parents I hear screaming the loudest are those who don't have their kids
> properly disciplined and under control. Their kids ignore them because they
> know that not listening to their parents has no negative consequences, like
> a swat.

C'mon, Timothy -- give us a break. How do you know the child ignores
the yelling because he/she isn't swatted? Is this another poll you
have taken, so you can say with certainty that children who ignore
yelling parents are children being raised by parents who don't swat?


> Getting back to the title of this thread, that was one little girl who really
> needed a good spanking. Oh, and I also think it is absolutely tragic to see
> a parent yelling. To me, it's a sure sign that the parent isn't in control of
> the situation. There is never a justification for raising your voice to
> a child.

Why raise your voice when you can hit and hurt them? It's just
absolutely tragic to see a parent bypass an opportunity to hit a
child, IMO. It's so easy, so expedient, and will certainly work
momentarily, as long as the hitter is present. I often see young
children behaving in exactly the same way. Why yell when you want
that toy someone else has, or when you want to be first in line. It's
so much easier and faster to just hit that other child -- especially
if the child is smaller than you!

Yes, Tim, I see little in life more tragic than parents who raise
their voice, and bypass that golden opportunity to hit and hurt their
children.

Oh..wait a minute -- I just had a thought! Why not stop hitting *and*
stop being verbally abusive. There certainly are other alternatives
-- but then, that's the point Elizabeth was making in the first place,
wasn't it!

LaVonne

Laurel Halbany

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:08:00 +0000, Richard Gaines
<nos...@cableol.com> wrote:

> I have


>had occasion to administer the odd spank to my son but I'd never dream of striking
>my daughter. Maybe I'm just an old fashioned dad... never thought I'd say that...

Why do you feel it's okay to spank your son but not your daughter? I
assume you have some reasons besides being 'old fashioned.'

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <6fbah2$gsa$4...@news.sas.ab.ca>,

I have provided Timothy with a list of alternatives as well as books
where he can gain additional information in child development and
parenting, and increase his repertoire of guidance and discipline
methods. He has information, but apparently no inclination to gain
increased understanding.

He prefers to wait for another poster who suggests other forms of
discipline and replies with his standard response -- "such as?"

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

What a wonderful post! If only more parents could examine their own
feelings, and remove themselves from the situation when the urge to
hit their child surfaces. I applaud you for your courage to do things
differently, to admit those feelings of rage, and to admit that it
sometimes takes restraint to *not* resort to hitting your child. You,
however, take responsibility for those feelings, rather than
justifying hitting by blaming the act on the child's misbehavior.


>
> As I mentioned earlier, I have an 18-year old daughter (who I'm just SOOO
> proud of)... and recently she told me "Mom, I don't know HOW you put up
> with me/us!"... <g> She was no "prize" as a kid, but now that she's grown,
> she's like my best friend... so I guess I've done a pretty good job...
> hehehe... :)
>
> ::stepping down from soapbox::

Hey, I like your soapbox! I look forward to reading more of your
posts!

LaVonne
>
> HG

Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> Timothy J. Butler wrote:
> >
> > Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> > >
> > Wait a minute. You talk about how much you hate yelling and then end by saying
> > that spanking upsets you. Sorry, but the two are related only inversely. The
> > parents I hear screaming the loudest are those who don't have their kids
> > properly disciplined and under control. Their kids ignore them because they
> > know that not listening to their parents has no negative consequences, like
> > a swat.
>
> C'mon, Timothy -- give us a break. How do you know the child ignores
> the yelling because he/she isn't swatted? Is this another poll you
> have taken, so you can say with certainty that children who ignore
> yelling parents are children being raised by parents who don't swat?

Okay, genius. Why does the child ignore the yelling? If it isn't because
the child knows that there will be no negative fall-out from ignoring the
yelling, what is it? Or is it your contention that children, being natural
sadio-masichists, always do that which will result in the most unpleasant
consequences?

>
> > Getting back to the title of this thread, that was one little girl who really
> > needed a good spanking. Oh, and I also think it is absolutely tragic to see
> > a parent yelling. To me, it's a sure sign that the parent isn't in control of
> > the situation. There is never a justification for raising your voice to
> > a child.
>
> Why raise your voice when you can hit and hurt them? It's just
> absolutely tragic to see a parent bypass an opportunity to hit a
> child, IMO. It's so easy, so expedient, and will certainly work
> momentarily, as long as the hitter is present. I often see young
> children behaving in exactly the same way. Why yell when you want
> that toy someone else has, or when you want to be first in line. It's
> so much easier and faster to just hit that other child -- especially
> if the child is smaller than you!
>
> Yes, Tim, I see little in life more tragic than parents who raise
> their voice, and bypass that golden opportunity to hit and hurt their
> children.

Now let me see. First, spanking is child abuse. Then spankers who
spank without losing their tempers are the same as premeditated
murderers. Now yelling and screaming is better than spanking. Wow.

Something tells me, LaVonne, that if I related the story of a child
who had been chained in the basement and fed bread and water, you'd
come back with, "At least he wasn't spanked."

>
> Oh..wait a minute -- I just had a thought! Why not stop hitting *and*
> stop being verbally abusive.

LaVonne, did you forget to take your medicine again?

There certainly are other alternatives
> -- but then, that's the point Elizabeth was making in the first place,
> wasn't it!

I'm sure that mother that I saw in the mall was doing her best to
use those alternatives.

averti

unread,
Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Timothy J. Butler wrote:
>
> Christine Insell wrote:
> >
> > Do you "smack" your wife or your girlfriend when she's been bad? If the
> > answer is No, then why do you do this to your children.
> >
> > Do you like being "smacked" when you are bad. If the answer is No, then
> > why do you do this to your children!
> >
> > Maybe if people quit beating and smacking or tapping or hitting or
> > whatever you want to call it, then our society would be less violent.
> > It starts in the home - there are OTHER forms of discipline People!
>
> Such as?

Psychological torture?

--
The road to Hell is paved with asphalt.
The good intentions kept catching fire.

Christine Insell

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> In article <3517F0...@ca.flomerics.com>,
> ch...@ca.flomerics.com wrote:
> >
> > Spanking is wrong PERIOD!
> >
> > When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence
> >
> > yet when you strike your minor child, that's called discipline!
> >
> > GO FIGURE!
>
> We have assault laws that protect every single member of our society
> except our smallest, weakest, youngest, most vulnerable and most
> defenseless members, our children! These tiny people deserve more, not
> less protection, yet they remain the sole members of a legally
> assaultable population! How anyone can, for even one second, believe
> this to be logical, moral, or just is beyond my comprehension.
>
> LaVonne
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


LaVonne,

That was put beautifully!

I don't think ANYTHING more needs to be said on this subject because you
can't disput for one second the statement you made!

WELL SAID!

Christine

Laurel Halbany

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:17:58 +0000, Richard Gaines
<nos...@cableol.com> wrote:

>The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
>'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

You don't spank your daughter--are you saying that your son is
well-behaved but your daughter is a brat?

I haven't seen a correlation between spanking and good behavior. I
*have* seen a very strong correlation between DISCIPLINE and good
behavior. "right on" parents who threw out discipline along with
spanking end up with brats--just as do those parents who spank but
don't provide effective discipline. (Those kids just learn to be
sneakier brats.

ave...@hotmail.com

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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In article <35194f3d...@hermes.rdrop.com>,
myt...@twisty-little-maze.com (Laurel Halbany) wrote:

>
> On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:08:00 +0000, Richard Gaines
> <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:
>
> > I have
> >had occasion to administer the odd spank to my son but I'd never dream of
striking
> >my daughter. Maybe I'm just an old fashioned dad... never thought I'd say
that...
>
> Why do you feel it's okay to spank your son but not your daughter? I
> assume you have some reasons besides being 'old fashioned.'

Maybe he doesn't like the sexual feelings involved.

>

a.

abyw...@bidmc.harvard.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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In article <35193F...@ford.com>,

"Timothy J. Butler" <tbu...@ford.com> wrote:
>
> Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> >

<snip>

> > straight to your car and home. Why do anything other than that? Yelling

> > doesn't solve too much either. I know sometimes they can push the buttons


> > but being as calm as possible and letting them know they did wrong and put
> > them in their room or on a time out chair. Letting them know you are
> > angry or mad is fine but does yelling have to be involved. Sometimes, I
> > find myself wanting to yell and yes, I have yelled, but realized that this
> > doesn't work. I get angry and show sternness in my voice. My son knows
> > I'm mad.
> >

> > Anyway, I just had to give my say because it really upsets me to hear that
> > there is spanking.
>

> Wait a minute. You talk about how much you hate yelling and then end by saying
> that spanking upsets you. Sorry, but the two are related only inversely. The
> parents I hear screaming the loudest are those who don't have their kids
> properly disciplined and under control. Their kids ignore them because they
> know that not listening to their parents has no negative consequences, like

> a swat. I saw a great example at the mall yesterday. A prechooler just walked
> away from her mother and set out to explore the mall. I was about to alert
> security to the fact that there was a lost child when the mother appeared to
> collect her. What followed was several attempts by the mother to coerce, trick,
> convince, threaten, etc. the little girl to do what she wanted her to do - to
> come back to Mommy. This woman was a master at "positive alternatives" to
> spanking, including reminding the girl that the mother had told her many times
> to come when she was told, giving her to the count of 5 to obey, begging her
> to come, and so on. It was pathetic. I felt so sorry for them both. Here was a
> child who had no trouble showing everyone in the mall exactly who was in charge.
> I don't know how it ended up because I finally left in disgust.
>

> After watching this 90's mother at work, I have little doubt that she adheres to
> positive parenting as opposed to bad, bad punishment, thinks that spanking is
> barbaric, and spends a good deal of her time trying to come up with more and
> more positive strategies to try to bribe, convince, and cajole her daughter into
> obeying her. I'd also guess that she spends a good deal of her time yelling (how
> else could she get her daughter to pay attention to her?) and that she is
> raising a brat.

Perhaps this woman was one of the population of parents who are permissive and
do not follow through with their 'threats'. You say that this parent counted
to five. What exactly was supposed to happen after she got to five?

In our house, you have an opportunity to control your own body. If you choose
not to, it is controlled for you. Had it been my child, I would have warned
her of the consquences, given her a count and when the count was over and if
she still hadn't done what I'd asked, I'd have picked her up and carried her
out of the store. I don't beg. It's the follow-through that is important.

Also, it's incredibly difficult for a child of any age to wander away from a
parent who is holding his/her hand. It is the number one solution to this
particular safety issue.

> Getting back to the title of this thread, that was one little girl who really
> needed a good spanking. Oh, and I also think it is absolutely tragic to see
> a parent yelling. To me, it's a sure sign that the parent isn't in control of
> the situation. There is never a justification for raising your voice to
> a child.

How about when you're far away from them?

Frank Bloater

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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Tim, I believe with all my heart that LaVonne does love all
children about as much as anyone can ...
but she cannot see yet your very well taken point.

I am praying for her that she will understand the truth you
are trying to make and will change her views.

You are right. So keep up the good work!

Frank

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Frank Bloater wrote:
>
> Tim, I believe with all my heart that LaVonne does love all
> children about as much as anyone can ...
> but she cannot see yet your very well taken point.

Well, Frank, my definition of love doesn't include hitting/hurting
loved ones. Tim's definition of love includes just such actions.
There was a time, in fact you may agree with this time, that allowed
husbands to hit their wives, whom they professed to love. I'd rather
raise children who do not hit out of love, nor accept being assaulted
by the individual who professes to love them. It is possible to both
love and abuse -- but the abuse is never a justifiable result of love.


>
> I am praying for her that she will understand the truth you
> are trying to make and will change her views.

I'll take prayers, and thank you. I have this weird idea that
Christianity is about love. I have a very strange idea that Jesus
never advocated hurting children. I see utmost compassion in Jesus'
words. Remember the woman at the well?

>
> You are right. So keep up the good work!

You think Timothy is right to continue to advocate hitting and hurting
little children? I understand. You think this has anything to do
with Christianity -- I'm baffled beyond belief!

LaVonne
>
> Frank

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Timothy J. Butler wrote:
>
> carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
> >
> > Timothy J. Butler wrote:
> > >
> > > Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> > > >

> >
> > C'mon, Timothy -- give us a break. How do you know the child ignores
> > the yelling because he/she isn't swatted? Is this another poll you
> > have taken, so you can say with certainty that children who ignore
> > yelling parents are children being raised by parents who don't swat?
>
> Okay, genius. Why does the child ignore the yelling? If it isn't because
> the child knows that there will be no negative fall-out from ignoring the
> yelling, what is it?

Yelling is not an effective guidance and discipline strategy, Timothy.
Yelling doesn't teach -- it provides an outlet for parents to vent
anger and frustration. Children quickly become desensitized.

Or is it your contention that children, being natural
> sadio-masichists, always do that which will result in the most unpleasant
> consequences?

And again I ask -- how do you know that the child who ignored her
mother's yelling was not spanked at home?
>

> Now let me see. First, spanking is child abuse.

Yes, I believe hitting/hurting children in the name of discipline is
engaging in abusive behavior.

Then spankers who
> spank without losing their tempers are the same as premeditated
> murderers.

This was an analogy, Timothy, meant to point out the ridiculousness of
the claim that calmly and rationally hitting and hurting your child
somehow made the hitting and hurting okay. It's another example of
double standards applied to the segment of our population we fail to
protect, our children.

Now yelling and screaming is better than spanking. Wow.

Sarcasm, Tim --- guess I won't try that again! You, who believe in
calmly and rationally hitting and hurting children, found a parent who
yelled absolutely tragic. This struck me as a bit strange.


>
> Something tells me, LaVonne, that if I related the story of a child
> who had been chained in the basement and fed bread and water, you'd
> come back with, "At least he wasn't spanked."

And something tells me, Timothy, that you will continue to believe in
calmly and deliberately hurting your children in the name of
discipline -- that you have little interest in exploring alternative
parenting strategies, or attempting to understand reasons why children
behave as they do, or why hitting/hurting them is not appropriate.

You do continue to provide excellent opportunities for pointing out
discrepancies between your opinions, which you state as fact, and
research data. You also provide excellent opportunities for debate,
and for presenting data and alternative ways to raise children. I
welcome your participation on this newsgroup (no sarcasm intended).

LaVonne

Randy Cox

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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In article <35180555...@cableol.com>, on Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:11:18 +0000, nos...@cableol.com, Richard Gaines says

>Frank Bloater wrote:

>> He who loves his son will
>> whip him often,
>> in order that he may rejoice at
>> the way he turns out.
>> Ecclesiasticus 30:1
>> Catholic Holy Bible RSV

>Well said.

>Ric

There is no logical reason to attribute to whipping a child any
outcome worthy of rejoice. Children who have not been spanked can
be easily managed and well-behaved. Spanking a child is therefore
not necessary to the outcome.

Randy Cox


Harleygirl

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Yet ANOTHER reason that I personally RENOUNCED my Roman-(paranoid)-Catholic
upbringing... ::shrug::
I don't believe a religion that believes in an "all-knowing, all LOVING
G-d" can at the same time condone "whipping" ANYONE... <sigh>

JUST my 2 cents...
HG

Randy Cox <firstin...@cei.net> wrote in article
<6fbrhb$u...@news.cei.net>...

Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> Timothy J. Butler wrote:
> >
> > carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > Timothy J. Butler wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Elizabeth Ann Lewis wrote:
> > > > >
>
> > >
> > > C'mon, Timothy -- give us a break. How do you know the child ignores
> > > the yelling because he/she isn't swatted? Is this another poll you
> > > have taken, so you can say with certainty that children who ignore
> > > yelling parents are children being raised by parents who don't swat?
> >
> > Okay, genius. Why does the child ignore the yelling? If it isn't because
> > the child knows that there will be no negative fall-out from ignoring the
> > yelling, what is it?
>
> Yelling is not an effective guidance and discipline strategy, Timothy.
> Yelling doesn't teach -- it provides an outlet for parents to vent
> anger and frustration. Children quickly become desensitized.

Exactly. The children are actually trained to ignore the yelling.

>
> Or is it your contention that children, being natural
> > sadio-masichists, always do that which will result in the most unpleasant
> > consequences?
>
> And again I ask -- how do you know that the child who ignored her
> mother's yelling was not spanked at home?

For someone who spanks, she sure had a practiced hand at the
"nonspanking alternatives."

> >
>
> > Now let me see. First, spanking is child abuse.
>
> Yes, I believe hitting/hurting children in the name of discipline is
> engaging in abusive behavior.
>
> Then spankers who
> > spank without losing their tempers are the same as premeditated
> > murderers.
>
> This was an analogy, Timothy, meant to point out the ridiculousness of
> the claim that calmly and rationally hitting and hurting your child
> somehow made the hitting and hurting okay. It's another example of
> double standards applied to the segment of our population we fail to
> protect, our children.

I find the fact that you consider my assertion ridiculous oddly
comforting. On second thought, it's not that odd.

I said it before and I'll say it again - any analogy between a swat
on the backside and premeditated murder is the result of some
very bizarre thinking. Or lack of thinking. I don't know which.

Oh, and if you labor under the delusion for one second that my children
aren't protected, try to harm them. You would succeed only after I've
stopped breathing. (And if you are implying or openly asserting that
my children need protecting from me, well, I'll give you the benefit
of the doubt and just conclude that you're shooting your mouth off
in ignorance. If you knew us and said the same thing, I'd conclude
that you're insane.)

>
> Now yelling and screaming is better than spanking. Wow.
>
> Sarcasm, Tim --- guess I won't try that again! You, who believe in
> calmly and rationally hitting and hurting children, found a parent who
> yelled absolutely tragic. This struck me as a bit strange.

Again, that's comforting to me. I must be on the right track.

> >
> > Something tells me, LaVonne, that if I related the story of a child
> > who had been chained in the basement and fed bread and water, you'd
> > come back with, "At least he wasn't spanked."
>
> And something tells me, Timothy, that you will continue to believe in
> calmly and deliberately hurting your children in the name of
> discipline -- that you have little interest in exploring alternative
> parenting strategies, or attempting to understand reasons why children
> behave as they do, or why hitting/hurting them is not appropriate.

Who says I haven't explored them? I've explored them to death. They
didn't work!

>
> You do continue to provide excellent opportunities for pointing out
> discrepancies between your opinions, which you state as fact, and
> research data. You also provide excellent opportunities for debate,
> and for presenting data and alternative ways to raise children. I
> welcome your participation on this newsgroup (no sarcasm intended).

No problem. I'll continue to poke my nose in her and prod you to the
point of saying something unbelievably extremist and nonsensical like
your little spanking = murder analogy. As long as you are so casual
about your extremism, no one but the truly confused will fall for
your patter.

You actually comfort me quite a bit. As long as anti-spanking radicals
do such a poor job of masking their agenda and propaganda, I doubt
that mainstream society will be conned by them anytime
soon.

Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Lenny Schafer wrote:
>
> I want to know why you think it's an ok choice to kill an unborn baby in its
> womb, yet so offended by the "battery" of spanking of the ones "chosen" to
> let live? Sorry, the crocidile tears pro-choice anti-spankers shed for the
> innocent and vulnerable reeks of hypocrisy.
>
> That elephant you're ignoring in your living room is the annual 1.5 million
> abortion acts of violence by mothers, who usually seek to protect their
> offspring.
>
> Love, lenny

Excellent point! Giving a swat to a child on the backside is abuse, but
opening up the back of the skull of a full-term baby and sucking its
brains out through a needle without anesthetic is a "procedure".

Timothy J. Butler

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> I have provided Timothy with a list of alternatives as well as books
> where he can gain additional information in child development and
> parenting, and increase his repertoire of guidance and discipline
> methods. He has information, but apparently no inclination to gain
> increased understanding.
>
> He prefers to wait for another poster who suggests other forms of
> discipline and replies with his standard response -- "such as?"

Pick up your lower lip, LaVonne. At the time, I was trying to pin Randy
down, since he was the one championing the spanking = wife-beating
analogy. Little did I know he was waving a gun that wasn't loaded.
(Gee, I like these analogies!)
>

Richard Gaines

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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Laurel Halbany wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:17:58 +0000, Richard Gaines
> <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:
>
> >The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
> >'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.
>
> You don't spank your daughter--are you saying that your son is
> well-behaved but your daughter is a brat?

Where did I say that? I don't need to spank my daughter because she responds
to non-physical punishment. I also use non-physical punishment with my son,
but it does not always work. They *are* individuals, after all. I might add
that neither my son nor my daughter misbehave in public.

> I haven't seen a correlation between spanking and good behavior. I
> *have* seen a very strong correlation between DISCIPLINE and good
> behavior. "right on" parents who threw out discipline along with
> spanking end up with brats--just as do those parents who spank but
> don't provide effective discipline. (Those kids just learn to be
> sneakier brats.

I am not suggesting that one need biff one's child on a regular basis to
discipline them, nor that physical punishment is the only method of
discipline, as you seem to imply. I am merely stating that it is an option,
if my child misbehaves.

Discipline can involve punishing physically, if that is required. But I might
add that it is by no means proven, as you suggest, that spanking is
tantamount to NO discipline in terms of effectiveness. I agree that
discipline and good behaviour go hand in hand, but it seems that we differ on
the matter of what constitutes legitimate discipline.

Ric

Theodore M. Seeber

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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On 25 Mar 1998 de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:

> Then how come the parents who start out with the intention of never
> spanking but using alternatives that work have kids who behave well? I'm
> thinking of Dr. William Sears and his kids: all 8 of them. He and his
> wife never struck their children and I bet you they are great kids,
> because the parents are determined to have good kids without spanking.
> I'm also thinking of Barbara Coloroso ("Kids Are Worth It!") and her kids.
> Talking does work. If it doesn't, the child has learned nothing about
> respect and spanking him only makes him appear to respect.

Actually, we now have kids who were never disciplined properly doing
things like shooting their schoolmates.
I'll agree that some kids, respect and talking works. Others, spank them
once and from then on, respect and talking works because the kid knows
that you are serious.
Certain others, particularily those who are mentally disabled, pain is the
only thing that will get them to pay attention. It's sad, it's needlessly
pavlovian, but it's true.
For some kids, the ability to understand just isn't there.
Ted

mailto:seebe...@bigfoot.com
http://www.teleport.com/~seebert


Donna

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

Richard Gaines wrote:
>
> Frank Bloater wrote:
>
> > He who loves his son will
> > whip him often,
> > in order that he may rejoice at
> > the way he turns out.
> > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> > Catholic Holy Bible RSV
>
> Well said.
>
> Ric

I suppose you two go along with the "eye for an eye" bit too. Why
don't you try out some New Testament.
Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual
should correct that one in a gentle spirit.
Galations 6:1
The New American Bible
Catholic Translation

Donna

ironbird

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

and If a child lives with Mexicans, he learns to speak Spanish. Give me a
break!!!! This no spanking way of parenting may work for for some people but
not all and I know that it would not work for me and my kids (expecially my
5 year old son). He's too hard headed and doesn't care what you take away
from him or how long ha has to sit in a chair (he'll keep getting up
anyway). Yes I spank him and my older son (who's 8) when he deserve's it
(which is very, very, rare anymore) and when then go out in public with me,
they are very well behaved because they know they will have more fun now and
when we go home as long as they are good and because in the back of their
mind they also know what will be waiting for them at home if they are not..

Ironbird

Marg Petersen wrote in message <6fac8o$iv1$1...@kira.peak.org>...
>In article <35183054...@cableol.com>,
>Richard Gaines <nos...@cableol.com> wrote:
>>It is simply a matter
>>of understanding that we are dealing with minds which are not yet capable
of
>>sustained arguments, merely short, blunt words or actions, straight to the
point.
>
>My 3 year old grandaughter understands NO very well, thank you.
>And she knows that if she continues, she will be sent to her room
>for a timeout. No spanking is necessary.
>
>>Ric
>>
>
>Marg
>
>
>
>
>
>--
> Marg Petersen Member PSEB: Official Sonneteer JLP-SOL
> god...@peak.org http://www.peak.org/~goddess
> "At ease Ensign, before you sprain something." - Capt. Janeway
>

ironbird

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
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No one here would ever accuse you of being sweet Marg...


Ironbird


Marg Petersen wrote in message <6fambh$bs4$1...@kira.peak.org>...
>In article <6fakk5$2...@examiner.concentric.net>,
>Scott Vandewalle <Scot...@viking.cris.com> wrote:
>>.net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
>>Organization: Concentric Internet Services
>>
>>
>>
>>girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
>>behaved, for the most part anyway.
>>Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
>>may be why i think that.
>
>Careful, your sexism is showing. *I* was not *sweet* as a child
>and I'm still not. Neither was my daughter nor is my grandaughter.
>We get into trouble just like boys do. Take it out on us equally,
>or not at all. thank you.

Hamilton

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.98032...@user2.teleport.com>,

"Theodore M. Seeber" <see...@teleport.com> wrote:

> On 25 Mar 1998 de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>
> > Then how come the parents who start out with the intention of never
> > spanking but using alternatives that work have kids who behave well? I'm
> > thinking of Dr. William Sears and his kids: all 8 of them. He and his
> > wife never struck their children and I bet you they are great kids,
> > because the parents are determined to have good kids without spanking.
> > I'm also thinking of Barbara Coloroso ("Kids Are Worth It!") and her kids.
> > Talking does work. If it doesn't, the child has learned nothing about
> > respect and spanking him only makes him appear to respect.
>
> Actually, we now have kids who were never disciplined properly doing
> things like shooting their schoolmates.

What do you know about the discipline afforded these kids? Are you
sure they were never spanked? I have no idea at this point besides
the fact that the parents thought it important to help their kids
become crack marksmen and own and use guns. Most people in prisons
for violent crimes were spanked as children -- in fact harsh discipline
is a pretty good predictor of adult violence. One of the natural
outcomes of physical discipline is resentment -- most of these
junior killers seem to have personalities dominated by resentment --
bringing up kids with self discipline simply doesn't require
hitting them -- and certainly not beyond the age of about 3.


k

Blair Zajac

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Mar 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/25/98
to

In article <6fambh$bs4$1...@kira.peak.org>, god...@kira.peak.org (Marg
Petersen) wrote:

>In article <6fakk5$2...@examiner.concentric.net>,
>Scott Vandewalle <Scot...@viking.cris.com> wrote:
>>.net> <32746D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>
>>Organization: Concentric Internet Services
>>
>>
>>
>>girls are sweet that is why they are not spanked as much and much better
>>behaved, for the most part anyway.
>>Of course there is a soft spot in my heart for little girls too so that
>>may be why i think that.
>
>Careful, your sexism is showing. *I* was not *sweet* as a child
>and I'm still not. Neither was my daughter nor is my grandaughter.
>We get into trouble just like boys do. Take it out on us equally,
>or not at all. thank you.
>
>Marg
>
>
>

Judging from the way Marg braggs about her sweaty smell, I am inclinded to
believe her in this case.

Goes to show, I don't always disagree with Marg.

--
Zajac has been informed that he is a member of the caveman brigade

bza...@tcsn.net

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