Pulp Fiction discussion

This month's read is a true classic - Red Harvest.

Hammett based the book on his experiences working for the Pinkerton Agency. Originally serialized in four parts in the pulp magazine Black Mask, the book was first published in 1929.

Enjoy!

Great Choice.
I\ve recently read the novel for the first time, and it blew me to pieces. I can understand how it could inspire some very good movie versions

I was unsure whether or not to read this month's selection as I was not a big fan of The Continental Op, but reading some friends' reviews has swayed my opinion. I'll try to get to it soon.

read it, reread it, re-reread it, always good

Terrific selection.

Wow! What a book to select!

(new group member here)

Hey guys ...I finished reading Red Harvest last week.

For the 2nd or 3rd time I'm reading The Big Knockover.

I'm up to the second story (refused to re-read that damned pathetic Lillian Hellman introduction this time around) "Fly Paper" which follows "The Gutting Of Couffignal" (he references fellow Op, "Dick Foley" early in that story.

Both tales are outstanding.

My questions:
#1) is Red Harvest the first Continental Op tale that Hammett wrote or not?

#2) is there a site that lists all of the Continental Op stories in chronological order of publication?

I'd really appreciate a response on this.

Does anyone know if Red Harvest, in book (novel) form, is the same text as the four Black Mask stories that preceded it? The story first appeared in that magazine in serial form in 1927-28. A few of the chapter titles are the same as the Black Mask installments.

I'd also very much like the info on the Continental Op stories in chronological order of publication--if anyone knows where to get it.

I always assumed the Hammett at least edited or partially rewrote the Black Mask stories to meld them into RED HARVEST--no? (I assume the same was done by Cain to create FAST ONE?)

Mark Nevins

Still wrote: "Hey guys ...I finished reading Red Harvest last week.

For the 2nd or 3rd time I'm reading The Big Knockover.

I'm up to the second story (refused to re-read that damned p..."

Still,
I found this site:

http://www.mikehumbert.com/Dashiell_H...

It looks like it has a list of the Op stories.

Franky wrote: "Still wrote: "Hey guys ...I finished reading Red Harvest last week.

For the 2nd or 3rd time I'm reading The Big Knockover.

I'm up to the second story (refused to re-read..."

Oh wow! Thanks so much, Franky!
I've read one of the two stories in The Big Knockover twice - "Fly Paper". Read it once & then re-read it.
Terric writing.
Glad I read Red Harvest first, though.
Thanks again!

Is anyone aware of a collection of Raymond Chandler's early short stories? ie; those prior to the Marlowe novels. I would very much like to know the process he went through, creatively, in the development of the Marlowe character. I would have thought 'Black Mask' would have released an anthology, but haven't been able to locate one, if such a collection exists.

Paul wrote: "Is anyone aware of a collection of Raymond Chandler's early short stories? ie; those prior to the Marlowe novels. I would very much like to know the process he went through, creatively, in the deve..."



Sho' nuff- it ain't no lie!
For best results buy the unexpurgated collection:

Raymond Chandler Collected Stories Everyman's Library

Still wrote: "Paul wrote: "Is anyone aware of a collection of Raymond Chandler's early short stories? ie; those prior to the Marlowe novels. I would very much like to know the process he went through, creatively..."

Thanks for that Still. It's on my TBBought list.

it might be good to assemble some of the original critical review of RH from whatever we can glean off the internet.

In particular I'd love to see Dorothy Parker's review, if anyone can locate it. I tried and failed--found only a few allusions to it here:
http://dorothyparker.com/hellman.html
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opi...
http://www.greatamericanthings.net/th...

When I first read this, I finished it with a meh. I thought, this guy is a screw up - he wound up killing (or getting killed) more people than the guys he was supposed to clean up. But then I couldn't stop thinking about it, and the longer it swirled around in my brain, the more I liked the taste of it. Who says the good guy has to save anyone? Who says the hero has to be good? Who says there has to be a hero, anyway? Maybe sometimes what you need instead is a catalyst. A stick of dynamite.

I can see how this inspired many crime films of today and how it makes a statement against corruption, but I was disappointed over all. The plot was sort of implausible and there wasn't given much depth to characters outside of the Op. I kept confusing every single "bad guy" (which is I guess almost everyone in the book). They all seemed fairly interchangeable. Too many corpses, bullets and wisecracks, not enough mystery and tension.

Not to say I didn't like it at points. And there are some great moments of prose and some great quotes about trying to "cleanse Poisonville." But, I think I was more impressed with The Continental Op collection.

Oh but today's films are the least notable or significant set of entities possibly influenced by Hammett. This is doing them too much favor. They're at least as much influenced by incompetence, imitation, and stupidity.

Franky wrote: "The plot was sort of implausible and there wasn't given much depth to characters outside of the Op. I kept confusing every single "bad guy" (which is I guess almost everyone in the book). They all seemed fairly interchangeable. Too many corpses, bullets and wisecracks, not enough mystery and tension. ..."

All quite forgivable and minor sins in comparison to the scope and grandness of its achievement. One might even consider these 'flaws' (if flaws they are) as an expected side-effect of the pulp format itself. They might even be the reasonable tradeoff for the fantastic effects Hammett gets via a story paced in this singularly frenzied manner. It is the model for action writing--the epitome of all action writing including anything done in the modern era. It really needed to be invented and demonstrated in just this special way at just this point in time when it occurred; either Hammett (or someone like him) had to be the inventor; and his genius is one towards which many authors today would love to aspire to (but can not).

Helpful Comment: good book.

It's definitely 'high-time' I try my hand at writing a Goodreads review for this book which I admire so much. Ah'm-a take this task on sometime in the next few days..have to go largely on memory..

J.W. wrote: "read it, reread it, re-reread it, always good"
I absolutely agree!!! :-)

_Red Harvest_, the novel, was changed in various ways from "The Cleansing of Poisonville," the title of the serial in Black Mask, according to Layman's bio, _Shadow Man_. At Knopf, Blanche Knopf wanted less violence. The dynamiting of the police station and of Lew Yard's house were eliminated. The number of murdered people was reduced from 26 to 24. Many stylistic changes were made, to tighten up sentences and reshape paragraphs. Hammett made these changes quickly (the ability to write fast--he needed that to write pulp stories).

Changes from pulp to novel, or from screen treatment to paperback original in the case of Goodis' _The Blonde on the Street Corner_, are a study in themselves. Reasons include format, intended readers, and the editors' chances of getting the book reviewed, or at least being allowed newsstand distribution without threat from moral authorities (you know, from politicians needing to show off how they were protecting children, and cops ordering booksellers to take that "trash" off display while looking the other way when policy was being written).

BTW, the title has nothing to do with Communism, or urban corruption, which of course is the theme of the novel. If so, Knopf, always obedient to authority, would not have allowed it. I *think* it refers to the murders, which the Op admits have made him "blood simple." And of course old Elihu, the "czar," is still in charge at the end. "Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown."

My review is now on the book's Goodreads page...in case anyone wants to share my enthusiasm!

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jay wrote: "_Red Harvest_, the novel, was changed in various ways from "The Cleansing of Poisonville," the title of the serial in Black Mask, according to Layman's bio, _Shadow Man_. At Knopf, Blanche Knopf wa..."

Jay, thanks for the additional info. Illuminating stuff, and I appreciate learning it. Here's a "long-lost" Hammett interview from 1929 that I transcribed:
http://www.thrillingdetective.com/non...

Feliks wrote: "My review is now on the book's Goodreads page...in case anyone wants to share my enthusiasm!

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

Bravo, Feliks. Simply, bravo.

Wonderful review Feliks. I actually discovered Hammett (and Nero Wolfe) while listening to old time radio shows. But after reading your review, I'm going to have to get a copy of Red Harvest!

Tanks, Mac! I love me some OTRR as well. Its a refreshing switch from non-stop music. Activates different areas of the brain. Really trains your ear to listen. And some of the shows are a laff-riot. Meanwhile, two of the horror shows had me quivering and squirming in my seat cushions. I'll never forget those two nights.

'Red Harvest' is just astounding. I've looked for similar examples in the rest of Hammet's bibliography; but find not much else which compares. 'Dain Curse' is a slightly wacky tale of drugs, Chinatown, and hypnotism; 'Glass Key' is simply straightforward/no frills small-town political graft. I dislike, 'Thin Man'. So other than that one story where the crooks take over the California seacoast town, I think 'Harvest' stands alone. It was indeed the only instance I can recall where I "could not turn pages fast enough" and had to put the book down for a few minutes to re-orient myself. Dizzy! It moves at lightning speed.

That article is so interesting in that it first appeared in the 'Brooklyn Eagle'. Must have been back in the day when Brooklyn was a power. We still have a paper like that here, though it is 'only a shadow of its former self'.

A marathon of Lights Out, Quiet Please, and Suspense can really get the ideas flowing (and prevent sleep!)

I've ordered Red Harvest.

Feliks wrote: "only a shadow of its former self."

Ain't we all?

Ben wrote: "Jay wrote: "_Red Harvest_, the novel, was changed in various ways from "The Cleansing of Poisonville," the title of the serial in Black Mask, according to Layman's bio, _Shadow Man_. At Knopf, Blan..."

Ben: thanks, and thanks again for the great Hammett interview. What he says about the Continental Op's working toward a "dim goal" kind of like an Everyman really helps understand the novels. Of course, in RH, the Op goes way beyond the assignment to get back at, or root out, the gangs and corrupt cop.

I am a little late in the discussion, but this is the book which solely responsible for my love of noir. First time I read this because it really was the only book I had at hand and I needed to kill some time.

For this reason I do not think I can make its good review - first love and everything, but for me this is undeniably 5-star read.

I’ve really enjoyed the comments on _Red Harvest_. Feliks’s essay was great. His phrase about the reader “being picked up and shaken like a rag doll” is classic. The early review of _Red Harvest_ that Ben sent me contained a powerful insight: the Op is “a little man going forward day by day … as callous and brutal as is necessary—toward a dim goal.” Of course Op has decided for himself to push for the “cleansing” of Poisonville. The motive seems grander and more idealistic than Chandler’s Marlowe, who knows how “cities are run” and who only desires, as a matter of personal honor, to protect his client, if the client is worth it. Certainly the Op knows how cities are run too. That would include the DA and why a mayor hires him; the municipal agencies of government, esp. any mining commission in this case; the Press; the religious institutions; the ethnic and class distinctions in the city and the politicians who have the power to manipulate these constituencies. But the Op does not touch these (Hammett does in _The Glass Key_), or did I miss it?

As for the source of money and power, Elihu himself, he is left the same untouchable he was at the start. The Op gets immersed in this violence, as he has been trained to do. As he admits, he got “blood simple” himself. The agency is furious with him, and realizes his reports are at least part fiction. This is an authentic comment on the American 1920s, as the early history of the FBI shows. So what has he really accomplished? Well, he knows he did not kill Dinah, he has left a lot of gangsters dead meat, and Noonan the fat crooked cop is kaput. Since he “knows his Poisonville," he knows the corruption (follow the money) is probably going to revive in the town’s blood as a more dangerous virus (drugs? assassinations?) than ever.

All this could only be stated by a pulp writer of genius. “Raw, gruesome, thrilling action,” as Feliks put it.

Thankee for your kind words, sahib...! Its both a pleasure and an honor to publicly express my appreciation for a book like 'Harvest'. I throw myself in, and do the best job I can. Maybe it will help a little bit to convince more readers to put down their horrible little 'paranormal-romances' and read Hammett...

So what's everyone's input on the read? Is everyone making their way through it silently, alone? Are you all gabbing somewhere I can't see? I expected a lot more chatter for this book. When I first read it I was astounded. Every few pages I would get up and pace the floor; shaking my head in amazement. What are you experiencing?

I think everyone but me has already read it. I'm about half way through and enjoying myself. The writing is great, the plot is good, but once again, the Op's lack of a real personality bugs me. I don't need a whole lot of back story on my dicks, but sometimes it's nice to know where they're coming from and that they're human...not just crime-solving machines.

Well where that comes from is the Op's diction, his little musings and asides to himself. That's where you pick it up. Hammett is being accurate to who these Continental (Pinkerton) personalities were. They were bland little dogged men; with no lives other than their jobs.

I grew up with the guys from the 87th Precinct, where everyone had wives, kids, drinking problems and distinct personalities.
Then I veered off into the shady realm of the "cozy" mysteries, where crimes were solved by hairdressers, caterers and dog groomers. Some even had extended family helping to nab the baddies. Now, I'm back where I belong with the sleuths who carry badges and guns, but I still like to know more about them than Hammett lets on.

The dialogue is top notch, however.

For some reason, I can stomach the Op and his personality, in small doses much better (than in Red Harvest), which is why I liked the short stories better. I think he veers off from antihero because really he's not a whole lot better than the scum he's bringing down, in Red Harvest.

I guess I'm in the minority. I'm more of a Chandler fan than Hammett fan (after reflecting on this for awhile).

As far as the entire noir genre itself, I think I like a little more substance, less pacing. Give me Goodis or something like that, where I can reflect, over just sheer action and wisecracks.

I can see what Hammett is establishing as a writing form for the genre, but a little disappointed over all.

I find "Red Harvest" to be one of the least satisfying of Hammett's Continental Op novels at the same time it is one of the most frequently discussed.

I should like it better than I do because it illustrates my "Red Noir" theme so well -- that money is the root of all hardboiled evil, private detectives are proletarians when you get under their veneer, and the corruption of civil authority is why we need the man with pure intent to go down those mean streets dispensing justice.
(for more on "Red Noir" and this point, see my essay at Pulp Hack Confessions, http://www.pulphackconfessions.com/se...)

I don't know why I find "Red Harvest" so weak. It deals with some of the same themes as "The Glass Key," one of my favorite Hammett books, but the characters just don't seem to come to life for me.

Hammett falls back on the Chandler formula of having some goon come through the door with a gun in his hand every time the action flags.

These characters remain one dimensional throughout, paper targets for the Op to fill with lead when Hammett can't think of anything else for him to do.

Indeed, the body count in "Red Harvest" is preposterous and many of the deaths seem superfluous since, despite the fact that the Op floods the streets of Personville with blood, nothing of substance in the town changes by the book's end.

To me, "Red Harvest" is one of the weakest novels Hammett wrote, much as "The Maltese Falcon" is one of the best. Despite its superficial trickiness and dependence on coincidence, even "The Dain Curse" is a better read than "Red Harvest."

William -
I couldn`t agree more.
I`ve never understood why this novel is so lauded.
It`s great to come across another person who thinks this is a case of The Emperor`s New Clothes.
Keep up the good work.
Brian.

So I bought this on Abebooks (the one with the five novels all in one) and I am liking Red Harvest so far. It's hard to put down, given the pace; my tired old bones drag me to bed. The style is crisp, fast: There are times it's a little unbelievable (you blow away one of Noonan's goons and yet they still let you into the boxing match?! Maybe I'm not tracking very well)....

I'll probably edit this post when I'm all done with it.

The body count in Harvest is indeed, absurd. Nothing wrong with that, though. It's a welcome relief from all the other staid absurdities which permeate the entire genre (all genres, really) and which never go announced. All the hokey conventions and cliches which mysteries are built on.

Hammett seizes all those writerly absurdities by the throat and throws them back, bodily at you. He basically says, "So, this is what you like eh? Blood? This is what you want? Okay then, I'll give you all you could ask for!" In other words, he stops pussy-footing around.

As I suggested earlier: there's not really a 'mystery' in this story for anyone to 'solve'. Its a bloodbath and the point of the tale is to make your pulse race. That, it does.

'Satisfaction' and 'sense of closure' by the end of the Book? Huge, but certainly not Personville. Who cares about some flyspeck town, after all? No, the underlying focus of the writing is the Op himself; his manner, his way, his values, his survival. This book is an important step forward in the development of 'detective-as-cult-hero'; which America needed at the time.

I still say 'Dain Curse' (when he returns to 'trying to write a mystery') is much more preposterous (embarrassingly so) and 'Thin Man' is well..just forget that whole episode in his life. 'Maltese Falcon' is genre-defining; but 'Red Harvest' finally, with no mistake about it, is action writing. Not action genre writing; but action-writing no matter the genre.

p.s. William wrote: "Hammett falls back on the Chandler formula of having some goon come through the door with a gun in his hand every time the action flags...."

Yes, but Hammett preceded Chandler; so he didn't fall back on anything from him.

Chandler articulated the formula. I didn't say he invented it. If anybody invented it, it was Homer. . .

I just started it. I like the way he set the background with IWW, that gives much sense of the situation the Op is getting into. The meeting with and description of Dinah Brand was great; same with Elihu, and there is humor in that one: Elihu tells his somewhat spindly secretary to throw the Op out and the Op and the secretary know that's not at all realistic.

It's terrific - just finished. A masterpiece. What do you do for an encore? Don't need one I guess. Glad I finally read it. Loved it.

I didn't know that. I'll have to watch it. Kurosawa's "Ran" is my all time favorite movie. He received a Lifetime Achievement Oscar presented by Spielberg and Lucas. Lucas's two-handed light saber style is reminiscent of samurai sword fighting. I saw that Mifune is Yojimbo, a ronin! Perfect, I must see it. Thanks! (And Kurosawas's "Seven Samurai" is the inspiration for "The Magnificent Seven", great movie.)

Red Harvest is a book I can take with me and re-read and appreciate every line. It's the only book I can say that about. It's epic, it's moral without being moralistic, it's unscrupulous, everyone is just who they are; completely entertaining - it's just great.

And Max Thaler, Whisper, the Peace Conference chapter- I loved his reaction. And what he did at the end. Next to the Op Thaler is my favorite character.

And Reno, getting his last words out, each word killing him - that's harakiri. Kurosawa must have loved it.

'High and Low' is by McBain, yeah. Epic mivie. Goodis was the man. 'Shoot the Piano Player' ? Forget about it ! ;-)