Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 194

Thursday, December 16 1999

• Re: Lashon Hara l'Toeles (was Re: Agunos in Baltimore)
• Re: Yitamu Chata'im
• Catholics
• Re: problem kids
• Re: Avodah V4 #193-Mishkav Z
• Re: alcohol and simcha...and minors
• Subject: Yitamu Chata'im
• missionaries
• Jews and Alcohol
• Marava
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Marava
• Tao
• Yossel
• Re: Tao
• Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Avodah V4 #193
• Alcohol, etc.
• Re: problem kids
• Re: Marava
• Re: Hazzanim and the mimetic tradition
• re alcohol in our shuls
• Haneros Halalu
• RE: Avodah V4 #193

Carl Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
: I think that the issue here is one of toeles. I think that if you have 
: the kavanah of trying to help out the aguna...

Need the to'eles directly involve the one you are speaking about?

What about just keeping a particular image of mesarvei get in the culture? What
about using names so as to add power to a cautionary tale, to prevent others
from not acting until it's too late?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

What does the nusach of the Avoda <pun intended? say

sloch .. .la' avonos, vlachatoim vla'peshoim... 

Rich W.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

If chot'im and chata'im refer to people, and chata'os to korbonos, what's the 
plural for cheit?

<snip>

-mi

After reading the book Michel, Michel I got the impression that they did not so 
much go after b'ku v'asei, OTOH they were very tenacious about holding onto any 
Jews that did come their way

btgw, a real life exmple in France is Cardinal Lustiger.

In Halacho, if a koton is nisgayeir he gets at leeast one  chance to opt out  
when he beoems a gadol

However, apparently,  once a Jew is baptized into Cahotlocism - even b'al korcho
- he can never recant.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Catholics do missionize. Not only in third world countries, but even in the 
US -- just less brazenly. For example, don't let a Jewish kid in the adoption 
or foster care system get anywhere near Catholic Charities or some of the 
other Catholic child-care agencies. They'll take a Jew from another agency as 
a higher priority than a Catholic kid in their own.

-mi

Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> quotes David Herskovic and writes:
:> Teens leaving the fold are an inevitable consequence of a)the growth in
:> numbers of the chareidi population and b)the ever increasing extremism,
:> insularity and self imposed isolation of the community.

: Then how do you explain why just as many teens are leaving the 
: fold in the dati leumi communinty here in Israel R"L? My wife 
: caught the end of a speaker at my daughter's (dati leumi) high 
: school last year who said that based on statistics of ten years ago, 
: one graduate in five in the dati leumi high schools leaves fruhmkeit 
: within a few years. And if anything, it has only gotten worse since 
: then, according to the speaker. Is the dati leumi population growing 
: as fast as the Charedi one? Is it as insular as the Charedi 
: population? 

I think there's a parallel problem in the dati le'umi community.

Chareidim teach their kids insularity as part of core Yiddishkeit. In the
minds of too many, if the insularity doesn't work, the whole unit goes out
the window, including observing halachah.

The dati le'umi parent is teaching a Yiddishkeit that includes Zionism. But
(for whatever reason) Zionism is failing to grab people's hearts in this
decade. In an era of post-Zionism, perhaps the Yiddishkeit as a whole is seen
as part of that failing antiquated system.

Also, what percentage of graduates of dati leumi high schools come from
non-frum homes? IOW, what percentage of the 1 out of 5 was never really dati
to begin with?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 99-12-16 17:23:48 EST, you write:

<<  If we're on the subject of the proper way of saying it, it is not
 "Mishkav
 Zachor", which would mean a perverse kind of memorial. <
 No one (AFAIK) said the "Z" was "zachor" (with a cholam re the chaf) --
 speaking strictly for myself, I believe it's "zachar"/"zochor" (with a
 komatz re the chaf [and, needless to say, the zayin]). >>
This exchangre reminds me a bit of the scene in "Up the Down Staircase" in 
which the English teacher corrects the grammar in the note his love-struck 
student has sent him.

In Avodah 4#193, AAtwood replied:
> Alcohol is a depressant -- why someone b'simcha would want to take a
depressant... <
The arba cosos never depressed me....I'm sure I needn't tell you that
scientific opinions do not have the last word when we're talking about
spiritual matters like simcha.

He further wrote:
> AFAIK, the only wine HaShem *created* was the wine he put in the cave for
Lot to drink :-)

Everything else *we* had a role in. Maybe that was a nisayon (and maybe we
failed)? <
Why speak in the past tense?  We're all constantly being tested...and, re
use of alcohol, there *is* a proper way to use it.  I concur w/ the
comments of others re the minhag of having a minor drink from the wine at a
Kiddush/Havdolo made by the SHaTZ.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Chatto'im with a full patach under the ches and a dagesh chazak in the tes,
means sinners (like gannovim).

Chato'im, with a chataf patach under the ches and no dagesh in the tes means
sins.  If the ches were a non gronit letter it would have a shva (like
sefer/siforim), bit since it is gronit it takes a chataf instead of the
shva.

Moshe

>From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)

>If chot'im and chata'im refer to people, and chata'os to korbonos, what's
the
>plural for cheit?

RMB noted:

> Catholics do missionize. Not only in third world countries, but even
> in the US -- just less brazenly. For example, don't let a Jewish kid
> in the adoption or foster care system get anywhere near Catholic
> Charities or some of the other Catholic child-care agencies. They'll
> take a Jew from another agency as a higher priority than a Catholic
> kid in their own.

You're right; I stand corrected.

And -- perhaps less brazen than the in-your-face of the others, but much
worse consequences.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

I don't have numbers in front of me BUT our rates of alcoholism, as well as 
divorce and spousal abuse are still lower than the non-Jewish rates -- 
although higher than they were in 1950.  I think the reason for the lower 
rates isn't so much that it is only used ceremonially but is understood to 
be a shabbos/yomtov/simcha only thing -- aside from the l'chaim after 
morning shacharis.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

	Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not sure)
personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
anyone know of a reliable source for this story?

Jeff Zuckerman

In a message dated 12/16/99 11:49:17 AM US Central Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< circa 1950 there was a study published at YU (Yale University) that 
ascribed the
 lower affliction of alcoholism among Jews to the practice of the normal use 
of
 alcoholic beverage in the Jewish home, ie giving children wine to drink at 
kiddush
 etc. While among certain other religions the use of alcohol was a big no-no 
giving
 their adherents a delicious means of rebelling. >>

This sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'm not aware of any X-tian 
denominations in which the use of alcohol is a "big no-no." I am aware of a 
couple of denominations in which alcohol greases almost every non-liturgical 
religious function on their calendar. Ever see the sweet table at a 
non-Jewish celebration? A few crackers, some cheese, little puffy trafe 
snacks passed around on a tray, and an incredible variety of hard liquor and 
beer. Nowadays, Jewish (well, maybe just non-observant Jewish) families are 
following suit, and alcoholism is sharply on the rise among Jewish teenagers 
and adults, particularly in the suburbs. 

David Finch

In a message dated 12/16/99 6:36:29 PM US Central Standard Time, 
JZuckerman@CM-P.COM writes:

<< Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
 studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
 that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not sure)
 personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
 performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
 anyone know of a reliable source for this story?
  >>

Are you seeking a reliable source for the story, or a source that reliably 
reports the story to be true? 

Even if the story were true, it hardly proves that secular studies are 
unnecessary. Even if the surgeon's hands were guided by HaShem, we can still 
benefit from studying Shakespeare or small-particle physics. If the point of 
the story is that the surgeon's hands were guided by the Chazon Ish alone, 
and not by HaShem, then the  story is proof that even Jewish studies are 
unnecessary. Then the Chazon Ish would be the deity, and the primary 
assumption of all Jewish study would be incorrect.

Anyhow, one can debate whether a specific performance of brain surgery is or 
is not "successful." Perhaps the student at Marava was himself the patient.

David Finch

From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine 

<<Question: does making things into big NO-NO's in fact entice people?
(kind of a Taoist action/reaction backfire...)>>

	I know nothing at all about Tao,  but Shlomo Hamelech said "mayim
genuvim yimtaku"

Gershon

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:14:39 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Yossele Pondrek- Toldot Yeshu

<<FWIW, I also heard there were several different Yeshu's in Shas and not
all of them were Yeshu haNotzri (IOW some wer and some were not)>>

	AFAIK none of them were Yeshu Hanotzri,  which is a translation of Jesus
of Nazareth,   an appellation with Christian roots.  The person referred
to in the (uncensored) Gemara is Yeshu only,  which I was taught,  stands
for <Y>imach <S>hemo <V>ezichro. 

Gershon

tao is about being firm in one direction will trigger a reistance in the other

EG anti-semites make jews more jewish




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Tao 
Author:  Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> at tcpgate
Date:    12/16/1999 8:22 PM


From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine 

<<Question: does making things into big NO-NO's in fact entice people? 
(kind of a Taoist action/reaction backfire...)>>

	I know nothing at all about Tao,  but Shlomo Hamelech said "mayim 
genuvim yimtaku"

Gershon

FWIW

Some fundamentalists are dry

and remeber the Women's Xtian Tempreance Union

And of course Islam is dry

Rich W.




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

This sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'm not aware of any X-tian denominations 
in which the use of alcohol is a "big no-no." 

<snip>

David Finch

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:03:00 +0200
From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Avodah V4 #191

> There is an old yiddish expression: ah goy is b'simcha vile
> ehr drankt. ah yid drankt vile ehr is b'simcha.

Alcohol is a depressant -- why someone b'simcha would want to take a
depressant...

Akiva


===========================

    Sorry, if I have to explain a good scotch to you I am sure I would be
wasting my time trying.

    Individual preferences notwithstanding, it is an almost universal custom
to partake of alcoholic beverages in celebration of happy occasions.

    In fact I am so sure that joyess occasions call for the consumption of
alcohol that I am amazed there is no gemara stating that 'ain simcha ela
b'yayin'.

    Catholocism treats all bodily pleasure as sinfull. We don't have this
hang-up, I thought. (My apologies to the Litvish side of the family)

I beg to object. Catholics generally have a farily liberal attitude towards 
alcohol.

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


    Catholocism treats all bodily pleasure as sinfull. We don't have this
hang-up, I thought. (My apologies to the Litvish side of the family)

On 16 Dec 99, at 16:29, Micha Berger wrote:

> I think there's a parallel problem in the dati le'umi community.
> 
> Chareidim teach their kids insularity as part of core Yiddishkeit. In the
> minds of too many, if the insularity doesn't work, the whole unit goes out
> the window, including observing halachah.
> 
> The dati le'umi parent is teaching a Yiddishkeit that includes Zionism. But
> (for whatever reason) Zionism is failing to grab people's hearts in this
> decade. In an era of post-Zionism, perhaps the Yiddishkeit as a whole is seen
> as part of that failing antiquated system.

Are these both theories, or do you have proof that this is what is 
behind it? It seems to me that to a great extent, kids going off the 
derech is nothing more than standard teenage rebelliousness trying 
to hit their parents where they know it will hurt.

In any event, post-Zionism probably dates to the 1982 Lebanese 
War, and maybe even as far back as 1973. But ironically, one of 
the things that has happened since 1973 is that the DL has taken 
over the position of being the best soldiers in the army - a position 
that traditionally belonged to the Kibbutznikim. That sure doesn't 
sound like post-Zionism to me. And if you add to that the fact that 
many of the DL's become not fruhm in the army as a result of a 
greater exposure to the frei, I'm afraid the post-Zionist theory falls 
apart. While the army may be what's making them not fruhm, in 
most cases I don't think it has anything to do with post-Zionism.

> Also, what percentage of graduates of dati leumi high schools come from
> non-frum homes? IOW, what percentage of the 1 out of 5 was never really dati
> to begin with?

It depends how you are defining fruhm, and what percentage of the 
kids are automatically admitted to high school x just because they 
went to elementary school x in the same school system.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 16 Dec 99, at 19:35, Zuckerman, Jeffrey I. wrote:

> 	Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
> studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
> that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not sure)
> personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
> performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
> anyone know of a reliable source for this story?

FWIW Artscroll's biography of the Chazon Ish brings a story about 
him telling a surgeon exactly how and where to operate. It sounds 
like the student embellished the story a bit.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

"As many have pointed out before me, an oral tradition is not ipso facto 
valid.":

Are oral traditions then ipso fcto invalid?

Rich Wolpoe





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Hazzanim and the mimetic tradition 


As many have pointed out before me, an oral tradition is not ipso facto 
valid.  The historian who coined the term "mimetic tradition" never 
suggested that the tradition is always valid; to the contrary he 
suggested that some who rely on "custom" in contravention of halakhah 
will have to answer for it in due time.
<snip>


Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

we all know that the Gemara in Megila as to "ad dlo yada" is subject to a 
variety of interpretations suggested by Chazal , Rishonim and Acharonim. (See 
Minhagei Yisrael, Volume 6) ranging from the position that the gemara is 
positing a din as opposed to the view of the Shnei Luchos habris that "Nicnas 
yain yotzae sod" (i.e sod = Torah).Regardless of one's perspective and 
mesorah of simchas Purim, where is the moreh heter for hefkerus ifor this 
type of behavior on Simchas Torah?In Baltimore, alcohol is not permitted at 
Shomrei Emunah. 
                                                                
Zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                                 Steven Brizel

In Digest 4:189, Rabbi Clark gave us an excellent description of how the
text of various tefilos develops over the centuries, and over the miles,
and among the communities. He concluded:

<<< In any case, I think that an understanding of the development of the
siddur leads one to conclude that, generally, there is little point in
consulting our siddurim when we learn hilkhot tefillah. >>>

Indeed, I *had* asked if anyone consults his siddur while learning
hilchos tefilah. Perhaps I did not explain my question well enough. I
will rephrase it: Does anyone consult his sifrei halacha when preparing
to daven? If the poskim discuss the proper words to recite, should this
be ignored when it comes time to recite them?

I use Haneros Halalu as my example, because of my observation that there
seems to be complete unanimity among the poskim that there are 36 words
in Haneros Halalu, not counting the words "Haneros Halalu" themselves.
(So there are actually 38 words, or maybe even 40, since that phrase
occurs twice.) From what I've seen, this "36" is mentioned by every sefer
that even touches on the subject of Haneros Halalu, and several poskim
give the full text, word for word.

But among siddurim, the word count almost always differs from that. The
following word counts are taken from various Ashkenaz siddurim, with the
exception of the Rinat Yisrael Edot Hamizrach, and the Imrei Fi, which is
also Sefaradi. These word counts are for the entire paragraph, including
both occurences of the words "Haneros Halalu", so you can deduct 2 or 4
from the counts, in order to reach the "36".

50 - Otzar Hatefilos (including the word "mitzvas", which is in
parentheses)
49 - Rinat Yisrael (Sefard, Ashkenaz, and Ashk. Chu"l), Artscroll, Gra
(Eshei Yisrael), Birnbaum, and many others
46 - Minchas Yerushalyim
40 - Avodas Yisrael (Roedelheim), Hirsch, Hertz
39 - Rinat Yisrael Edot Hamizrach
38 - Imrei Fi

If you're interested where the poskim and siddurim *do* influence each
other, I suggest looking at the various machlokesim among the poskim
regarding various phrases in Al Hamichya, and then check out the text
given by the Mishna Brurah in 208:50. And then look at Shaar Hatziyun
208:50 where he explains that he based that text on the Magen Avraham,
but changed it a bit ("k'tzas"), based on "our siddurim", without naming
any particular ones.

It seems to me that the Chofetz Chaim decided to choose parts of Al
Hamichya based on the poskim, and other parts based on the siddurim. I
can understand that. Rabbi Clark has explained many ideas crucial to the
understanding of how a tefila develops over times, and none of us would
dare question the Chofetz Chaim's ability to weigh the many factors
involved, and choose accordingly from among them.

My problem is that this step was skipped over in the case of Haneros
Halalu. I do not see any siddur which explains why its text is more
proper than that of the poskim. Nor do I see any posek take note of the
fact that "our siddurim" have a different text. Why is that?

Akiva Miller

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>     Sorry, if I have to explain a good scotch to you I am
> sure I would be
> wasting my time trying.

Hey -- I *enjoy* fine scotch. I was just making an observation which I found
funny (People b'simcha taking downers)

>     Individual preferences notwithstanding, it is an almost
> universal custom
> to partake of alcoholic beverages in celebration of happy occasions.

But *why*? From a phychological POV it's an interesting question.

>
>     In fact I am so sure that joyess occasions call for the
> consumption of
> alcohol that I am amazed there is no gemara stating that 'ain
> simcha ela b'yayin'.
>

There is "ein simcha ella b'basar v'yayin". in regards to simchas Yom Tov.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

*********************


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