UD Announces General Amnesty

I’m no longer trapped in the “banned” and/or “moderation” queues? It sounds to me like I need to hurry up and get out of here, before I somehow get trapped again. Gary S. Gaulin

actually 39 out of 40 would work out to 2.5 percent which I believe was approximately the percentage of atheists in America back then, As well, this claim of theirs,,, "Knowing that the proportion of believers to agnostics is much different in scientific circles than it is in the general population," ,,,Atheists are infamous for falsely claiming that 95% of scientists are atheists,,, yet that is now known to be a false claim,,, Misconceptions of science and religion found in new study - David Ruth – February 16, 2014 Excerpt: The public’s view that science and religion can’t work in collaboration is a misconception that stunts progress, according to a new survey of more than 10,000 Americans, scientists and evangelical Protestants. The study by Rice University also found that scientists and the general public are surprisingly similar in their religious practices.,, The study also found that 18 percent of scientists attended weekly religious services, compared with 20 percent of the general U.S. population; 15 percent consider themselves very religious (versus 19 percent of the general U.S. population); 13.5 percent read religious texts weekly (compared with 17 percent of the U.S. population); and 19 percent pray several times a day (versus 26 percent of the U.S. population). ,,, ,,,Nearly 36 percent of scientists have no doubt about God’s existence. http://news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study/ The root of the false myth that 95% of scientists don’t believe in God, was based on a severely biased study, and is exposed here: More Scientists Believe In God Than Atheists Want (You) to Think http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2011/10/more-scientists-beleieve-in-god-than.html Thus, as with practically every other claim from atheists, we find the truth is actually the opposite of what the atheists tell us: bornagain77

As Barrie Schwortz said to a dogmatic atheist once who said to him, "you will never convince me that it is authentic" to which Barrie replied, "it is not my job to convince you, that is between you and God." (Of note Nickell's refuses to debate Schwortz anymore because he gets waxed on the evidence so badly) bornagain77

"Oh well so much for unbiased examination!" I believe that was Graham2's conclusion exactly. Thank you for confirming. Acartia_bogart

Attacking the people because of religious beliefs instead of the evidence? So that means I can discount everything you say because you are a deeply committed atheist that does not believe he has a mind to reason with in the first place? (which is what I do do by the way! :) ) Moreover, Barrie Schwortz, the photographer of STRURP, if you would have watched the video I provided, gives the inside scoop as to how the STURP team came together and shows your claim to be false. Oh well so much for unbiased examination! bornagain77

I don't like pasting huge chunks of text but where BA77 is concerned, well ... The STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) group of scientists examined the shroud in 1978. Unfortunately almost all of these scientists were deeply religious, many were not specialised in the field they investigated and they were actively trying to prove its authenticity. In their book 'Debunked!', physicists Georges Charpak and Henri Broch noted that STURP consisted of 40 scientists, made up of 39 devout believers and 1 agnostic. Knowing that the proportion of believers to agnostics is much different in scientific circles than it is in the general population, they calculated that the odds of selecting a group of 40 scientists at random and achieving this high ratio of believers is 7 chances in 1,000,000,000,000,000. In other words the makeup of this group is stacked and very biased towards authenticating the shroud, and therefore you must take their claims with an extremely large grain of salt. Graham2

corrected link: Hoax or Proof of Resurrection the Shroud of Turin (feat. Photographer of STURP, Barrie Schwortz) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0N9cMUQrZI bornagain77

"I think you’re delusional if you think that science has demonstrated beyond a reasonable" Name calling? okie dokie, So much for undecided and unbiased! ,,, I know for a fact that it is beyond a 'reasonable' doubt, and I'll gladly join the list of delusional experts who now believe it to be authentic after careful examination. Resurrection of the Shroud: New Scientific, Medical, and Archeological Evidence - page 205 Most of the experts who are familiar with the total evidence from all relevant fields, conclude that the Shroud is authentic. http://books.google.com/books?id=mz_OOVknlBAC&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=STURP+team+believe+its+authentic&source=bl&ots=FyxdOjHgcG&sig=jeYcgh1ncREjzKf9F8fU77KFKTI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DapJVIPqObC1sQTN2IHIDQ&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=STURP%20team%20believe%20its%20authentic&f=false Shroud of Turin: Hoax or Proof of Resurrection? (feat. Photographer of STURP, Barrie Schwortz) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCyK2BzLy3Y bornagain77

232 Vishnu Better stay away from the religious zealots. They crucified Jesus and now want to prove they did it, maybe because they heard that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day. The religious zealots are as confused as you are. I don't need that stuff for my faith. His grace is enough. :) Dionisio

BA77: It simply is one remarkable clothe that refuses to go away.

Yeah, because a lot of religious people hope and wish it is the burial cloth of Jesus because they are desperate for some kind of objective evidence. Fine and dandy. But I think you're delusional if you think that science has demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that it is what the religious zealots hope it is. Vishnu

Vishnu, if you truly are undecided on the Shroud of Turin, if I may, let me suggest some references:

New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' - 28 Mar 2013 Excerpt: Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.,,, The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University,,, Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud,,, The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.,,, Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle. He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.,,, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video https://vimeo.com/97156784 Here is the main website for the Shroud of Turin (est. 1995 by Barrie Schwortz – photographer for the STURP team with links to all the peer reviewed papers on the Shroud and etc.. etc..) http://www.shroud.com/ Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm Bibliography of Published STURP Papers http://www.shroud.com/78papers.htm List of Evidences of the Turin Shroud - 2010 http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/FantiListWeb.pdf Turin Shroud: a medical forensic study of its blood marks and image - G.Lavoie - May 2010 Abstract - From extensive analytical studies of the Shroud of Turin we know that the image is not man-made, and from medical forensic studies of the blood marks we know that a crucified man was laid out on his back and wrapped in this cloth. But the question still remains as to what caused the shroud image. A forensic evaluation of the blood marks and a study of the effect of gravity on surface anatomy suggest that a natural event is not the most probable cause of shroud image formation. http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/LavoieWeb.pdf Journal of Optics A: Pure and Applied Optics - Fanti, Giulio and Maggiolo, Roberto. “The double superficiality of the frontal image of the Turin Shroud.” (2004: pp 491-503) The face and probably also the hands are visible on the back of the Turin Shroud, but not features related to the dorsal image. http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1464-4258/6/6/001/

It simply is one remarkable clothe that refuses to go away. bornagain77

It's like wading through a swamp here at UD. Mung

Uh, whatever. Nickell is not the only one with things to say on the subject. That NBC News article references several sources. It's an interesting subject. I am undecided about the Shroud, personally. Vishnu

Vishnu, yeah buddy you go with Nickell the 'clown' skeptic http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2012/05/you-state-that-there-is-no-paint-dye-or.html bornagain77

BA77, Shroud of Turin: Curious, but have you actually read the original published paper by Di Lazzaro and his team? Yes or no? For those interested in rebuttal to Di Lazzaro's findings, you can start with this: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/22/9636065-was-holy-shroud-created-in-a-flash-italian-researchers-resurrect-claim

I sure wouldn’t stake my soul on such shaky evidence, especially considering your main guy admits that ‘it certainly does not compel such a belief’

I don't stake my soul on any evidence for reincarnation. I don't believe in reincarnation. I do not stake my soul on some critical understanding of a set of facts within this Reality. I stake my soul on the love and mercy of the Creator alone, who loves each of his children, and would never send anyone off to an endless torture. At any rate, the evidence you seem to be "staking your soul" on (cherry picked NDEs) is just as shaky as anything Stevenson has produced. And worse, IMO. I wonder what you would believe if you approached the Bible with the same critical principles as you do other things that don't fit your preconceive pet theologies. Vishnu

Actually Vishnu, I'm quite happy with the evidence for the resurrection,,, Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values - Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio - 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the 'quantum' is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Whereas you have your main guy Stevenson admitting,,, “the evidence (for reincarnation) is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations,” Ian Stevenson I sure wouldn't stake my soul on such shaky evidence, especially considering your main guy admits that 'it certainly does not compel such a belief',,, Not a good position for Vishnu empirically speaking. As well, I note that you fight tooth and nail for your belief in 'evolving souls' i.e. reincarnation, yet you also fought against the Parnia study that found NDEs to be real. Why the discrepancy? You seem to be saying you believe in souls on the one hand, then on the other you say you don't. What gives? bornagain77

I hate to throw poop, but Dionisio evidently thinks he's some kind of wise teacher of truth, but he doesn't realize he just comes off as a narrow-minded Bible thumping fundamentalist who knows a lot less about Reality than he thinks he does, and who has no deep knowledge of the history of the Bible's origin, and the fact that are significant problems with it in terms of historicity and contradictory elements. But, I used to be a cultist too. So I understand. Vishnu

BA77: “the evidence (for reincarnation) is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations,”

One could rephrase that: “the evidence the resurrection of Jesus, or the flood of Noah, of the Parting of the Red Sea, or [some other miracle story from the Bible] is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations,” One wonders what you would believe if you scrutinized the Bible with the same operating principles that you scrutinize everything that you don't like. Vishnu

BA77, As for Betty Eadie's "deception" you are basing your judgement that her experience is a deception from your preconceived theology. How do you know your preconceived theology isn't the deception? Vishnu

BA77: Vishnu. perhaps you were not paying attention when Box and I box went over the Ian Stevenson cite? “His dualism became stronger after he experimented with mescaline and LSD.” http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html

Aren't you a dualist? Don't you believe that matter and spirit are in different domains? If so, what's the problem with Stevenson having perceived that dualism via brain state changes induced by LDS? It's not like he was on LDS all the time when he was doing science years later on reincarnation. At any rate, he experimented briefly in his younger days with drugs. So what. Stevenson was a scientist and handled his evidence on reincarnation in a scientific manner. Your attempt to throw poop at him with irrelevancies doesn't change that fact.

not exactly the sort of researcher I would stake my eternal soul on!

Yet you want to stake your eternal soul on a bunch of subjective and non-scientific NDEs (but only the ones that fit your preconceived theology.) Okie dokie. Vishnu

Phinehas #218 By "fully informed" I meant complete crystal clear knowledge of all possible factors and implications - not a religious intuition. By "horible plan" I meant foremost two aspects: * why a decision during our earthly life when things are muddled compared to the afterlife - with respect to informed decision making? * why the hurry? Why is it necessary for an eternal God to have our decision after just one life?

Phinehas #219: Or maybe raise someone from the dead? Or God-breathe truth to us in written form? As Abraham said to the rich man in Jesus’ insightful tale, “They have Moses and the prophets. If they do not believe them, they would not believe even though someone were to rise from the dead.”

Do you hold that it is beyond God's power to convince anyone of His existence? Really? An excellent book and raising someone from the dead may be more creative than star-juggling or a skywide presentation of God on the creation of the universe, however if one wasn't there when it all happened one has to rely on secondary witnesses, which reduces the persuasiveness of the event by a multitude. Box

@Box:

If God (for whatever reason) wants us to make a fully informed decision...

A much better way is for God to make everyone a prophet. JWTruthInLove

Box:

If God (for whatever reason) wants us to make a fully informed decision – now expressly during this lifetime -, why doesn’t God show us a video presentation of His creation of the universe and the life in it? Or maybe create a few new species while we watch? Or juggle with some stars? Who amongst the audience will adhere to Atheism/Darwinism/Materialism after that? Would such an event not raise awareness amongst the spectators? Would such an event not raise the possibility of making a more informed decision about things?

Or maybe raise someone from the dead? Or God-breathe truth to us in written form? As Abraham said to the rich man in Jesus' insightful tale, "They have Moses and the prophets. If they do not believe them, they would not believe even though someone were to rise from the dead." Phinehas

Box:

Do you hold that we are able to make (any) fully informed choice.

Let me start by acknowledging that I am a fallible person. To the extent that any of these thoughts are purely my own, they are suspect. Having said that, here's my own approach to epistemology. When I start with my own fallibility, I can't ever seem to get over the epistemological hump to "fully" informed. However, when I start with an all-knowing and all-powerful God, the situation doesn't have to be quite so bleak. With a big enough concept of God, I find myself becoming open to the possibility that He is knowledgeable and capable enough to communicate real truth to me in a way that overwhelms my fallibility. I call this kind of communication Revelation. This is what I take away from the passage where Paul talks about Scripture being God-breathed. For me, idolatry is worshiping or believing something other than what has been Revealed. This is the case whether what I am worshiping has been formed by my own hands or crafted by my own mind. But where God breaths truth through His Spirit administering His Word to my heart, I am able to make a fully informed choice, and am held responsible for the choice I make.

Why? Who came up with this horrible plan?

Actually, the plan seems rather ingenious to me, as I understand it. The problem of evil expresses a desire that good be completely separated and removed from any evil whatsoever. The problem with the problem of evil is that it doesn't take free will into account. Without free will, can we really experience love? And without love, can we really experience good to the fullest? But with free will, can we truly be free from evil? So, it makes sense to me that we would be given free will for a time so that we might fully experience love and goodness. But it also makes sense to me that that free will would be temporary so that we can eventually experience good apart from any evil. I think of heaven as the place of good without evil and hell as the place with evil apart from any good. I suppose the amount of time the temporary free will lasts can be variable. For me to set some time limit as a required minimum would seem arbitrary. I trust that a loving God will grant "enough" time as He sees fit. But it seems to me that He has "appointed to every man once to die, and then the judgement." (cf. Revelation) Phinehas

Phinehas,

Phinehas #213: I believe that God actively Reveals Himself to humans. He Reveals Himself in a general way through nature, and more specifically through His Son, Jesus. Through this gracious Revelation we are made, perhaps not fully, but at the least sufficiently aware, such that His judgement at the end of our life reflects fully His righteous and just nature.

I agree with you that God reveals Himself to us. However, without a doubt, things could have been made much more clearer. If God (for whatever reason) wants us to make a fully informed decision - now expressly during this lifetime -, why doesn't God show us a video presentation of His creation of the universe and the life in it? Or maybe create a few new species while we watch? Or juggle with some stars? Who amongst the audience will adhere to Atheism/Darwinism/Materialism after that? Would such an event not raise awareness amongst the spectators? Would such an event not raise the possibility of making a more informed decision about things? Box

WJM #214, Your subtle mention of "a pretty diverse system of learning/experience" tells me that our positions are more kindred than I could have hoped for. Very good to hear! Thank you for responding to my inquisitive question. Box

Phinehas: In this age of grace, God graciously gives everyone the free will to either connect with Him or isolate from Him. This is not an insignificant choice. Rather, this choice is the ultimate purpose of our lives.

Do you hold that we are able to make (any) fully informed choice - see also post #198?

Phinehas: At the end of our lives we are judged such that our temporary choice about God and our relationship to Him is made permanent.

Why? Who came up with this horrible plan? What's the hurry? And why this irrational emphasis on what a person decides and does during this earthly life - see also post #139? Box

Box asks:

Just out of curiosity William, what is your position on reincarnation?

I think there's a lot of very good evidence for reincarnation. IMO reincarnation is probably a pretty diverse system of learning/experience that isn't very well understood by the kind of conceptualizations we most often organize it around. William J Murray

Box:

I’m strongly objecting to the forever aspect of the seperation of God. We all know that a person can make huge mistakes. But a person can change his/her mind. A person can come to his/her senses.

If you think of God as not only good, but the source of all that is good or gracious, including the source of the grace we call free will, then you see that a person coming to his/her senses is dependent upon the active and gracious presence and work of God. The person that is isolated or removed from God's gracious and active presence is removed from all that is good. This is the destiny of all who are born of Adam. But in His grace and goodness, God holds off that kind of final isolation while He sustains a person's life. All those who accept His salvation, are graciously moved from isolation to eternal intimacy. All those who reject God's salvation remain isolated from Him. Further, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgement." At death, the choice to isolate is finalized when God removes His presence, and with it His sustaining grace -- including the very grace that gives us free will.

God will take this in account and He knows that the value of an act is only absolute if done fully aware of all implications. The criterium is awareness. A choice is only free if made fully aware. Obviously, humans are incapable of making choices on this level.

I believe that God actively Reveals Himself to humans. He Reveals Himself in a general way through nature, and more specifically through His Son, Jesus. Through this gracious Revelation we are made, perhaps not fully, but at the least sufficiently aware, such that His judgement at the end of our life reflects fully His righteous and just nature. Phinehas

Box, You may want to pay more attention to what you read and write. Don't rush your comments. Take time to think through everything you discuss. No one can put time pressure on you to respond right away. If someone demands that you answer faster, simply ignore them. This is a friendly advice. It seems like you're hastening to post your comments. Dionisio

Discussions about hell are not new on UD. Some fundamentalist preacher who used to comment here once referred me to a YouTube video of some other fundamentalist preacher using the book of Revelation to prove the existence of hell. He goes on to read literally from a book that is known to be purely metaphorical. Then the UD preacher/commenter began quoting some dubious passage in the New Testament about Lazarus and hell to make his point that hell is real because the Bible says so. Never mind that he's idolater for worshipping a book. That's right. If you believe that the Bible is 100% infallible, you are committing idolatry. Now we all know that the Catholic Church has had its share of blatant corruption and evil right from the beginning. It is a certainty that Church leaders incorporated their own evil teachings into their compilation of the New Testament. The only book the jackasses could not touch with their self-serving fingers is the book of Revelation because they have no idea what it means. Of course, they could not mess with the old Testament only because the Jews would not allow it. One would think that the Protestant churches would have ran away from this evil crap. No Siree. Baptists, Adventists and others just love to preach about hellfire and damnation. No wonder the morons believe that the entire universe was created 6000 years ago. It's freaking pathetic and they have no excuse. Atheism and Darwinism are mostly a reaction to all that nonsense. They can all kiss my asteroid. And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, I always tell it like I see it. Mapou

198 Box

For God to separate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly.

Your poor analogy is not even wrong, because it doesn't relate to the biblical message. You got it completely inverted. Keeping with the style of your failed poor analogy attempt, it would be more like a father warning his teenaged son not to walk to the edge of a cliff, but the rebellious son ignoring his Father's warnings and falling into the abyss. In the case of the Christian story, the father still reaches out to the falling son and offers him a way to stop the fall and get out of that pit, but the proud son rejects his Father's offer and continues to fall. Dionisio

I believe in hell. I tend to think of it in these terms: God is good. Further, God is the author and sustainer of everything good or worthwhile. Nothing of any value or good exists without God's active investment of His Person and Spirit into it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In this age of grace, God graciously gives everyone the free will to either connect with Him or isolate from Him. This is not an insignificant choice. Rather, this choice is the ultimate purpose of our lives. At the end of our lives we are judged such that our temporary choice about God and our relationship to Him is made permanent. Those who have chosen to isolate from God will be forever isolated from God. Since God is the author and sustainer of all that is good and worthwhile, they will also be forever isolated from all that is good and worthwhile. Being utterly and eternally isolated from God and, as a result, all that is good and worthwhile will be extremely unpleasant. The absence of all that is good and worthwhile is, by definition, the presence of utter and absolute evil. This evil is worse than any we might experience on earth because it is without restraint. It is to be avoided as one might avoid torture. Phinehas

203 StephenB Thank you! Dionisio

198 Box

We all know that a person can make huge mistakes. But a person can change his/her mind. A person can come to his/her senses. God will take this in account and He knows that the value of an act is only absolute if done fully aware of all implications. The criterium is awareness. A choice is only free if made fully aware. Obviously, humans are incapable of making choices on this level.

What documents do you base your opinion on? Once this age of grace passes away, it'll be too late for people to change their minds. However, for every individual, it is physical death that shutdowns that possibility.

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. [Hebrews 9:27-28 (ESV)]

Check out this story Jesus told His disciples:

“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” [Luke 16:19-31]

Dionisio

"the evidence (for reincarnation) is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations," Ian Stevenson http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html bornagain77

Here it is StephenB on page 67 “The Problem of Pain,” by C.S. Lewis http://www.fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf bornagain77

Dionisio #202, I have provided arguments to motivate my objection; post #198. Would you care to address those arguments? Box

On the subject of hell, I would recommend Chapter VIII in "The Problem of Pain," by C.S. Lewis. It can be found on line. StephenB

198 Box

I’m strongly objecting to the forever aspect of the separation of God.

That's your opinion, which I respect, but it doesn't have any enforcing effect whatsoever on reality. I could strongly object the heavy raining here in my neighborhood today, because it affects my plans, but my strong objection has no effect whatsoever on the rain at all. Well, at least not yet. :) Dionisio

Vishnu. perhaps you were not paying attention when Box and I box went over the Ian Stevenson cite? "His dualism became stronger after he experimented with mescaline and LSD." http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html not exactly the sort of researcher I would stake my eternal soul on! Moreover, Betty Eadie was already found wanting, i.e. Shirley McLain style,,, Embraced by the Light of Deception http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/eadie.html Repeating evidence that was already shown to be suspect in its integrity does not help you establish your case V (save perhaps in your own imagination). Moreover, I repeat that eastern cultures that believe in reincarnation the strongest have the consistently worse negative NDE's, for instance,, Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Thus undermining the foundation you would want to attach to 'evolving souls', i.e. reincarnation. Anomalous western NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures do not solve this problem for you with eastern NDEs! as to: Again I ask (will you answer?), why would a loving and merciful God create a place of eternal torture and suffering, when instead he could simply snuff out the consciousness of the damned? and to repeat myself, as I told Box, if it helps you to believe in annihilation of the soul, so be it, I cannot, empirically, support or refute that position one way or the other. What I can show empirically is that a 'timeless', i.e. eternal, place of destruction exists in reality. “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476 As to what happens to souls there, (if souls go there), is up to anyone's guess. I have no qualms if someone wants to say that rebellious souls are simply annihilated in God's mercy. ALL I WAS POINTING OUT was that a place of timeless destruction exists in reality just as is postulated in Christian Theism. bornagain77

190 bornagain77

So we have all sorts of people on UD...

Well, is this a religious congregation of a particular denomination*? This UD blog seems more like an eintopf, doesn't it? Are there two persons in this site sharing exactly the same worldview and opinions on everything? However, there are essential issues and non essential stuffs. It has been said that in the essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, in all things charity. It is written:

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. [Proverbs 26:4-5 (ESV)]

Commentary:

Taken together these verses illustrate the point that no proverb is intended to cover every possible situation. The apparent contradiction in the two proverbs indicates that proverbs must be appropriately applied. One situation demands that we avoid playing the fool’s game by giving an answer, while another demands that we expose the folly so that the fool is not considered wise. [Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]

PS. (*) I think Ravi Z. referred to it as 'abomination' in a presentation. Dionisio

Box: For God to seperate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly.

Good metaphor. Vishnu

Dionisio, I cannot give you any interesting answer to questions about the 'age of grace' - I'm not familiar with it, I would have to google for it.

Dionisio: Those souls who, by their own choice, will remain apart from God forever, (...)

I'm strongly objecting to the forever aspect of the seperation of God. We all know that a person can make huge mistakes. But a person can change his/her mind. A person can come to his/her senses. God will take this in account and He knows that the value of an act is only absolute if done fully aware of all implications. The criterium is awareness. A choice is only free if made fully aware. Obviously, humans are incapable of making choices on this level. For God to seperate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly. Box

Hey BA77, have you invesigated this?

Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols Hypnosis, while useful in researching into past lives, is less reliable from a purely scientific perspective. In order to collect his data, Dr. Stevenson methodically documents the child's statements of a previous life. Then he identifies the deceased person the child remembers being, and verifies the facts of the deceased person's life that match the child's memory. He even matches birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records. His strict methods systematically rule out all possible "normal" explanations for the child’s memories.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm There are numerous reports worldwide where children spontaneous remember past lives with details that can be objectively investigated. What's your explanation for this? Vishnu

BA77: So we have all sorts of people on UD proclaiming that ‘if they were God they would not create a hell’

No, it looks like what most people are objecting to is an eternal place of torment. Again I ask (will you answer?), why would a loving and merciful God create a place of eternal torture and suffering, when instead he could simply snuff out the consciousness of the damned?

and once again I point out that no one besides me has actually offered any solid empirical evidence for their position. Thus once again I point out, hell, i.e. a ‘timeless’ place of destruction, exists in reality is a empirically observed fact, not a personal opinion about how God ought to run the universe! Thus once again I hold my position to be the stronger!

That's ridiculous, as anyone can tell by perusing http://iands.org/home.html and similar sites. There are all kinds of stories from people with all kinds of backgrounds, and many contradict your pet theology, as does Betty Eadie, so claims there is no eternal place of torment. Their experiences are all just as "empirical" as the stories you cherry pick as compatible with your pet theology. Vishnu

Kind of weird ... after a flurry of newcomers checking in and a few discussions starting, day two of amnesty has almost all the active discussions between UD-regulars. Maybe ID has been so successful that there really is no opposition any more? It's got to be pretty difficult to argue that there is no observable/measurable difference between a pile of legos and a lego-castle (pile of sand/sand castle, gibberish/Shakespeare, etc). Silver Asiatic

187 Box You got it wrong, buddy! My comment was about someone else. It did not relate to you, at least not yet. :) Next time, try to read more carefully. But that's fine, we all make mistakes. I make many of them too often. Dionisio

183 Box Can you answer the following questions?

What is the meaning of grace in the expression ‘age of grace’? Whose grace? To whom? What’s the benefit of having God’s grace in this current age? The benefit to Christians and to non Christians? If grace is associated with the current age, will it end with this age?

It is written that God allows certain things to happen, and does not allow other things to happen (for example, see Job chapter 1 in the Old Testament). All according to His sovereign will, His grace, His holiness, His wisdom. In the age to come, God will not restrain anything. The souls that will be eternally in God’s presence will have no restrain to do anything they want, which will be worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time. Those souls who, by their own choice, will remain apart from God forever, will have no restrain to do anything they want – i.e. no absolute objective moral law. Therefore, everyone will be allowed to setup their own rules and standards, without God's interference. Isn't that what many want now? Well, they'll get it. Any idea what that will look like? Not exactly. But definitely doesn't seem very appealing to me. Does it look attractive to you? Interestingly, to the followers of Christ, this world is the closest we will ever be to experiencing what that Godlessness will be like, though only as a weak sneak preview (thank God!). The real thing will be eternally total absence of God's grace. Definitely repulsive. There are many things in this world that we detest already, but many people like or have no problem with. Is all that associated with the controversial concept of 'hell'? Apparently that's it. A minimal fraction of that seems appalling to some of us. Now imagine the full blown thing. Unbearable? Well, that's exactly what many seem to long for, isn't it? Then, why so much complaining? The prophet Jeremiah wrote:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

C. S. Lewis wrote:

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'

Ironically, in Russian language they say 'horror show' to say 'good' Now, go figure. :) Dionisio

WJM, Just out of curiosity William, what is your position on reincarnation? Box

I can agree with the concept of hell a process of destruction (of evil), but not as eternal torture with no hope of escape. William J Murray

So we have all sorts of people on UD proclaiming that 'if they were God they would not create a hell', and once again I point out that no one besides me has actually offered any solid empirical evidence for their position. Thus once again I point out, hell, i.e. a 'timeless' place of destruction, exists in reality is a empirically observed fact, not a personal opinion about how God ought to run the universe! Thus once again I hold my position to be the stronger! What is that saying about opinions??? bornagain77

I don't know about you Box, but God saving me, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, from hell is not only 'worthy of our love' but is also worthy of our undying loyalty and devotion. ,,,Such as the love, loyalty, and undying devotion this former militant atheist displays for Christ after being saved from hell by Him,,, video - Hear former atheist Howard Storm’s moving firsthand account of his (Near Death) experience in Hell during a brush with death in Paris, France. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342593001 video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342592001 "I knew for certain there was no such thing as life after death. Only simple minded people believed in that sort of thing. I didn't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tales. I drifted into darkness. Drifting asleep into anihilation.,,(Chapter 2 - The Descent),, I was standing up. I opened my eyes to see why I was standing up. I was between two hospital beds in the hospital room.,,, Everything that was me, my consciousness and my physical being, was standing next to the bed. No, it wasn't me lying in the bed. It was just a thing that didn't have any importance to me. It might as well have been a slab of meat in the supermarket",,, Howard Storm - former hard-core atheist - Excerpt from his book, 'My Descent Into Death' (Page 12-14) http://books.google.com/books?id=kd4gxtQAeq8C&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false verse John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. bornagain77

I agree with Box. The concept of hell as a place of eternal torture and suffering for any reason whatsoever is, IMO, not morally justifiable and is certainly not rationally derivable from the premise of a loving god. William J Murray

Visibly you’re wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion with someone who seems only interested in playing games. It has been written beyond enough by now, therefore there’s no excuse for anyone to pretend having misunderstandings or being confused.

Don't be uncharitable Dionisio, I can assure you that I'm asking these questions because I honestly believe that the concept of Hell does not make any sense in conjunction with a God worthy of our love. Box

with me- not to me. Joe

Dionisio:

Visibly you’re wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion ...

Kind of like trying to talk (about)religion to me. :) Joe

Andre Visibly you're wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion with someone who seems only interested in playing games. It has been written beyond enough by now, therefore there's no excuse for anyone to pretend having misunderstandings or being confused. A person genuinely seeking truth would behave much differently. Pay attention to the wording details. Remember how Jesus responded questions with other questions. He is the main interrogator. We should imitate Him. There are obvious signs in some interlocutors' writing that clearly indicate their motives and intentions have nothing to do with seeking truth. Did you notice how much they complain about questions, which they call 'interrogation'? Others have done the same before, in this same site. It's a common pattern. The lost sheep that belong to the Shepherd will recognize His voice and run to Him before it's too late. Please, remember that many won't be in the wedding of the Lamb of God with His church, because they have decided to stay out or because divine election. We don't understand the exact mechanisms, that's why there are interdenominational discussions about this topic among the Christians. There's nothing you or I can do about that. We just preach the Gospels, the good news, but we don't have the power to change hearts, to open eyes, to save anyone. I don't know about your own experience, but I wasn't born believing in God. I was educated in a strong atheist environment, and I felt in it fine. For many years I didn't understand anything about God, didn't know, and didn't care either. To me it didn't make sense, but when someone invited me to read some Scripture passages, I did not mock him, though I did not understand what he gave me to read. University degrees don't help in those moments. The wisdom of this world won't do anything to make anyone see the truth. It's mysterious, but it's real. I personally believe that it was God who made me see the reality. I could not have done it. It was His divine touch that opened my eyes. It was His Holy Spirit that gave me the saving faith in the redemptive effect of Christ's death on the cross. We share the joy of the good news with all, because we have a compassionate heart for the lost sheep. After all, not so long ago we were in that category too. We don't know who among them will recognize the voice of the Lord and run to Him before it's too late. Some will. Some won't. Let's not forget this:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” [1 Corinthians 1:1-31]

Dionisio

Andre #163: But if we reject Christ’s sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve.

Do you mean to say "if we reject Christ’s sacrifice for our sin - during our earthly life - then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve."? If so, can you explain why this period is so all deciding (- see also post #139). Do you think it is possible that people reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, but don't wish to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Or is the rejection of Christ's sacrifice exactly the same as the wish to be to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Why is there no other choice for God? Why is there no other option for God than torturing people - who don't accept Christ's sacrifice - for eternity? Why not create a less extreme environment for these deluded souls?

Andre #163: God will not send us to hell, but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.

If it is truly a free choice don't you think that Hell would be an empty place? Would you be in the mood of "worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time" when your family members are tortured in hell for eternity - because they "chose" it and there simply was "no other option" for God? Box

correction: And in presenting empirical evidence, instead of just presenting my personal opinion as to how I think God ought to run the universe (as many on this thread have done with the conviction that their personal opinion represents nothing short of a scientific finding), I would like to point out that, aside from Box's questionable cite of Stevenson, I am, as far as I can remember, the only one to offer empirical evidence supporting my position on this thread. ,,, I have provided evidence that NDE's are real. I have provided several cites showing that the eastern NDE's are consistently negative, thus calling the whole reincarnation belief into question. I have also shown that evidence from physics itself has shown that two very different eternities are associated to the reality we currently live in. And most importantly, I cited the Shroud of Turin as evidence for Christ's claim that he rose from the dead thus confirming the primary claim of Christianity.,,, Thus I hold that my position is, i.e. that there is a hell and that Christ has 'saved' us from it, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, is the only position on this thread that is being supported empirically right now. Thus, although some may not personally like that hell exists, and argue the a loving God would never allow such a thing, I argue that, if we want to remain 'scientific', it is NOT our business to tell God how to run the universe, or to offer our personal opinions as to how we think God ought to run the universe, but it is our business, if we want to remain scientific, to interrogate the universe to see how God built the universe. And in that regards, again as far as evidence itself is concerned, I find my position much stronger than any opposing positions offered thus far on this thread. a few assorted notes: GILBERT NEWTON LEWIS: AMERICAN CHEMIST (1875-1946) “I have attempted to give you a glimpse…of what there may be of soul in chemistry. But it may have been in vain. Perchance the chemist is already damned and the guardian the blackest. But if the chemist has lost his soul, he will not have lost his courage and as he descends into the inferno, sees the rows of glowing furnaces and sniffs the homey fumes of brimstone, he will call out-: ‘Asmodeus, hand me a test-tube.’” Gilbert Newton Lewis Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole - January 2012 Excerpt: "Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to 'glow' – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-gear-picture-black-hole.html This following video brings the point personally home to each of us about the very destructive effects of entropy on our bodies: Aging Process – 80 years in 40 seconds – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk Verse and Music: Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Creed – One Last Breath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnkuBUAwfe0 bornagain77

"Instead of presenting scientific evidence that shows atheism to be true (or probable), the neo-atheists moralize about how much better the world would be if only atheism were true. Far from demonstrating that God does not exist, the neo-atheists merely demonstrate how earnestly they desire that God not exist.8 The God of Christianity is, in their view, the worst thing that could befall reality. According to Richard Dawkins, for instance, the Judeo-Christian God “is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”9 Dawkins’s obsession with the Christian God borders on the pathological. Yet, he underscores what has always been the main reason people reject God: they cannot believe that God is good. Eve, in the Garden of Eden, rejected God because she thought he had denied her some benefit that she should have, namely, the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. 10 Clearly, a God who denies creatures benefits that they think they deserve cannot be good. Indeed, a mark of our fallenness is that we fail to see the irony in thus faulting God. Should we not rather trust that the things God denies us are denied precisely for our benefit? Likewise, the neo-atheists find lots of faults with God, their list of denied benefits being much longer than Eve’s—no surprise here since they’ve had a lot longer to compile such a list!" William Dembski - pg. 10-11 http://designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf And in presenting empirical evidence, instead of just presenting my personal opinion as to how I think God ought to run the universe (as many on this thread have done with the conviction that their personal opinion represents nothing short of a scientific finding), I would like to point out that, aside from Box's questionable cite of Stevenson, I am, as far as I can remember, the only one to offer empirical evidence supporting my position on this thread. ,,, I have provided evidence that NDE's are real. I have provided several cites showing that the eastern NDE's are consistently negative, thus calling the whole reincarnation belief into question. I have also shown that evidence from physics itself has shown that two very different eternities are associated to the reality we currently live in. And most importantly, I cited the Shroud of Turin as evidence for Christ's claim that he rose from the dead thus confirming the primary claim of Christianity.,,, Thus I hold that my position is, i.e. that there is a hell and that Christ has 'saved' us from it, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, is the only position on this thread that is being supported empirically right now. Thus, although some may not personally like that hell exists, and argue the a loving God would never allow such a thing, I argue that, if we want to remain 'scientific', it is NOT our business to tell God how to run the universe, or to offer our personal opinions as to how we think God ought to run the universe, but it is our business, if we want to remain scientific, to interrogate the universe to see how God built the universe. And in that regards, again as far as evidence itself is concerned, I find my position much stronger than any opposing positions offered thus far on this thread. a few assorted notes: GILBERT NEWTON LEWIS: AMERICAN CHEMIST (1875-1946) “I have attempted to give you a glimpse…of what there may be of soul in chemistry. But it may have been in vain. Perchance the chemist is already damned and the guardian the blackest. But if the chemist has lost his soul, he will not have lost his courage and as he descends into the inferno, sees the rows of glowing furnaces and sniffs the homey fumes of brimstone, he will call out-: ‘Asmodeus, hand me a test-tube.’” Gilbert Newton Lewis Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole - January 2012 Excerpt: "Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to 'glow' – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-gear-picture-black-hole.html This following video brings the point personally home to each of us about the very destructive effects of entropy on our bodies: Aging Process – 80 years in 40 seconds – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk Verse and Music: Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Creed – One Last Breath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnkuBUAwfe0 bornagain77

I was looking for another quote from Dembski this morning when I found this somewhat relevant passage,,

"Instead of presenting scientific evidence that shows atheism to be true (or probable), the neo-atheists moralize about how much better the world would be if only atheism were true. Far from demonstrating that God does not exist, the neo-atheists merely demonstrate how earnestly they desire that God not exist.8 The God of Christianity is, in their view, the worst thing that could befall reality. According to Richard Dawkins, for instance, the Judeo-Christian God “is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”9 Dawkins’s obsession with the Christian God borders on the pathological. Yet, he underscores what has always been the main reason people reject God: they cannot believe that God is good. Eve, in the Garden of Eden, rejected God because she thought he had denied her some benefit that she should have, namely, the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. 10 Clearly, a God who denies creatures benefits that they think they deserve cannot be good. Indeed, a mark of our fallenness is that we fail to see the irony in thus faulting God. Should we not rather trust that the things God denies us are denied precisely for our benefit? Likewise, the neo-atheists find lots of faults with God, their list of denied benefits being much longer than Eve’s—no surprise here since they’ve had a lot longer to compile such a list!" William Dembski - pg. 10-11 http://designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf

bornagain77

Graham2 What is our purpose on earth? What is the reason we have been created? Do you know? You have been created to choose good from evil. If you choose evil you will get what you asked for nothing more nothing less. How is that God's fault if the choice is yours? Are you just angry with God for giving you free will? It sure looks like it from your posts...... But let me ask you where is this sense of justice about torture you are talking about coming from? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has an idea of what a straight line looks like.... Andre

Who says God is going to torture anyone? I don't think you really understand; those that are cast into the pits of the hellfire are there because they chose to be there Graham2. Andre

Andre, Im not worried about anything, and I didn't mention blame, Im just amazed that you can take it seriously. If you were to replace 'God' with 'Donald Duck' in everything you have written, it would all sound exactly the same. Im curious about it all though, and how you (& others) think. Do you really believe God would torture a person forever ? What could someone possibly do to warrant that ? How can you condone that ? Graham2

Graham2 I have explained to you that if you honestly believe that Christianity is false and your intentions are good then you are in a state of honest error. Surely God, if there is a God won't punish a man for honest mistakes? But is saving your own skin and hoping that you won't be blamed for your actions all that you are worrying about? Andre

Graham2 Yes I do, and people choose it freely. Andre

Andre: Since you asked ... do you believe there is a Hell ? BA77 is quite sure there is. What do you think ? Graham2

Graham2 What are these strange things we say, can you expand on that? Give me a clear example so we can unpack it please Andre

Graham2 I did not say anything about a dishonest belief, I spoke about honest error (ignorance) and dishonest error (not ignorance) perhaps it would be best if you wanted to have an honest discussion not to put words in my mouth or twist what I have to say? Is that reasonable to you? Andre

Andre: Im trying to understand your position. You (and other believers) say the strangest things, and Im trying to untangle it all. Graham2

Graham2 You have heard about Christianity right? If you've heard about it and have seriously considered it as not true you would not have asked your question. But you have asked the question which means you are by no means certain that Christianity is not true. Are you in a state of honest error or dishonest error Graham2? I can't read your secret heart Graham2 only you can. Andre

Im a bit bemused by the concept of a 'dishonest' belief. How is it possible to believe anything in a way that is 'dishonest' ? Can I simultaneously believe A when, secretly I know its B ? Is this a left-brain/right-brain thing ? Graham2

But I don't have to worry about God punishing the man that is in a state of dishonest error they will punish themselves...... Andre

Graham If you reject Christ because you simply can't believe it you may be in a state of honest error, I told you yesterday I don't know your secret heart so I have to believe that your intentions are good. Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him" So the hope is that you are in a state of honest error and hopefully the mercy of God will remedy the situation, not just for you but also those whom you've influenced with your thoughts and actions. Do you think God will punish you for honest mistakes? Andre

Andre: If I simply don't believe any of that stuff, would I be considered to have rejected Christ’s sacrifice ? Graham2

CS Lewis understood divine justice perfectly “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.” Andre

What is it called when we send our self to Hell? Divine Justice! Divine justice holds all beings to order and no factor can impose upon them and change its design. As far as immaterial things are concerned, this is how things are. For rational beings though and particularly man, the divine justice is totally applied but for some reason of divine ‘providence’, it is accomplished in various ways in accordance with each man’s interest. Andre

God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell, but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity. Andre

Dionisio: You seem to have a strange way of interrogating people. Do you then give them some sort of score ? Perhaps Ive been entered in your class list with a grade next to my name. Also, To a non-believer, you have no idea how creepy your stuff sounds. Spending all eternity 'basking in Gods glory' sounds like living in North Korea. And to what purpose ? You god-botherers pester the heathens about a life without purpose, but what is the purpose of heaven ? To praise God from morning till night ? Is that something to look forward to ? Yech. Graham2

159 Graham2 Did you read post 158? Did you understand it well? Dionisio

154 Turbokid If you don't like answering simple questions, for whatever reasons, just say so and quit. Remember most discussions threads in this site are visited by more lurkers than commenters. We want the lurkers to read what is being said here and come to their own conclusions. If someone is not willing to go through the drill, because the questioning style is uncomfortable, that's fine, just quit the discussion. The lurkers still will see it. I really don't have much spare time for these discussions. My main interest in any discussion is to learn from what others know and share what I know. But that must be done in a mutually respectful manner. Both parties engaged in the discussion must be interested in learning, sharing, discovering, in a friendly communication, exchanging ideas, sharing experiences, correcting each other when necessary. The mutual goal should be finding the truth about the discussed subject. That doesn't seem to be the case in a number of discussions I've seen here. I don't like to get involved in senseless arguments that lead nowhere, because they are between two irreconcilable worldview positions. I'd rather spend time studying some of the material I have gathered in the 'third way' thread. Time is priceless. Many things can be purchased with VISA or MasterCard, but we can't buy time. Once it's gone, it's gone. I like to ask simple questions so I can really understand what the other person knows and also see their true motives. Any person who is genuinely interested in sharing and learning, will be willing to adjust to any style or communication protocol, or at least try hard to adjust or to reach a compromise, giving serious reasons for the desire to change. Sometimes I may answer questions with related questions, so I can make sure I understand the original question before I try to answer it as well as I can. On top of all the above, I have other major reasons to ask many simple questions during discussions: my reading comprehension is poor, my communication skills are almost nonexistent, my IQ score is about the same as my age, but changing in the opposite direction, English is not my first language. My wife doesn't like it when I reveal this, because it might hurt my possibilities of getting a new job. However, most probably she won't read what I wrote here, because she doesn't care much about reading anything in this blog. Also, I'm not looking for a new job at this point. I'm playing with 4D interactive animation software development and trying to learn about certain aspects of cell fate specification, determination, differentiation, migration mechanisms + a little of Neuroscience. This is not easy for me, so it consumes a significant part of my time. Dionisio

Dionisio: OK, give me a B- on that, Im not strong on the god stuff. Do you believe in Hell ? That is, do you share BA77s view that us heathens will be tormented forever ? Graham2

155 Graham2 No, not exactly. Apparently you did not understand it well. But since you're tired of my simple questions, you may quit our discussion, as others have done before. Anyway, it doesn't look as though you're really interested in this discussion, but maybe that's a distorted perception. In case you still want to continue our discussion, my next questions are: What is the meaning of grace in the expression 'age of grace'? Whose grace? To whom? What's the benefit of having God's grace in this current age? The benefit to Christians and to non Christians? If grace is associated with the current age, will it end with this age? God allows certain things to happen, and does not allow other things to happen. All according to His sovereign will. In the age to come, God will not restrain anything. Those souls eternally in God's presence will have no restrain to do anything they want, which will be worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time. Those souls who by their own choice will remain apart from God forever, will have no restrain to do anything they want to - i.e. no rules. Therefore, everyone will setup their own rules and standards. Any idea what that will look like? Not exactly. However, to the followers of Christ, this world is the closest we will be to experiencing a weak sneak preview of what that Godlessness will look like. Definitely repulsive. Could that be what they call 'hell'? Dionisio

Box: not to me he wont. I like the suggestion above that Barry was losing add revenue. The place was certainly becoming an incestuous echo chamber. Graham2

On topic: Maybe on His return Christ announces general amnesty? Box

Dionisio: Im tiring of the game, but to answer your question: the 'age of grace' seems to refer to a period that will end when Christ returns. In the meantime we had better be careful to be good or we wont make it into heaven. Is that it ? Graham2

Dionisio, why don't you just say what you think. Asking questions like they are tests of something is tedious. Its' not that people can't stand simple questions or are scared of something. It's more likely they can't be bothered playing a game and would rather just have a conversation. Turbokid

BA77 #151, you may be overreacting, Wiki states that Stevenson "tried L.S.D" in the 1950s - not that he was a hallucinating hard-core drug addict all of his life. Box

150 Graham2 Ok, if you've heard that expression before, and even know what it means, then my next question obviously is: What does it mean? Please, say it with your own words, don't paste someone else's explanation. I'm interested in knowing what you know, not what someone else knows. Thank you. Dionisio

Perhaps dropping acid is the reason he refused to follow his own results for eastern NDEs?,,, Thanks for the tip Box. I hadn't noticed. I will drop the cite next time I get to it since it is a minor one, and since I certainly don't need any suspect sources as references. as a footnote, I'm sure many people have had profound life changing experiences on LSD, but let's be honest Box, most people do not accept their testimonies as 'real'. Thus, for the purpose of evidence, while interesting, he has lost rigid credibility. bornagain77

Dionisio: I followed your instructions to the letter, so now, yes, I know what 'age of grace' means. I also know how high mt Everest is, but my problem is: what is the relevance of all this ? Graham2

BA77, Did you notice that in your post #87 you cite an article ("India Cross-cultural study") by the same dr. Ian Stevenson that you dismiss in post #100 as an "acid dropping Doc" - simply because you don't like the outcome of his research on reincarnation? Isn't that ironic? Box

140 Graham2 You seem to have the same problem Vishnu has: can't answer certain simple yes/no questions. Give it another try. Read post 138 and follow the simple directions in it. Thank you. Dionisio

145 Vishnu Sorry to see you can't stand a discussion where you are asked to respond simple questions. However, you're not alone. Others have done the same before. Some people can't stand simple questions. Apparently they feel uncomfortable? Why? Dionisio

127 tintinnid I and other folks here like BA77's style of posting comments loaded with abundant information. I encourage him to stick to it. But if you don't like them, just skip them. Why do you want to tell others how to write their posts? Are you the moderator of this site? However, if you have a very specific discussion with him, and you ask him a very simple question, then you could ask him to give a simple answer to your specific question. That request would apply to that particular question. Did you understand what I just wrote? yes, no, maybe (i.e. no). Dionisio

Dionisio: Have you heard the term ‘age of grace’?

Yep. Dionisio, you're not the sort of person I'm interesting in having a discussion with. You seem to be playing some sort of game. I'm not interested. Vishnu

Dionisio: Do you have problems understanding and following directions? I asked you a very simple question which requires a very simple answer.

My own words wouldn't differ from what I quoted. At any rate, I answered the way I wanted to answer. If you don't understand what the term means, that's your problem. Vishnu

Box, there are some nuances to the hellish NDEs that I did not fully elucidate for sure,,, but the main point I was making, and want to make clear, is that our science, the empirical evidence itself, not my opinion, not your opinion, or anyone else's opinion, tells us that there are two very different timeless dimensions, i.e. eternities, connected to this reality. That is NOT a minor detail! bornagain77

a few supplemental notes, I note that liberal, unscientific, theologians were the first to embrace Darwinism, whilst the conservative, scientific, clergy reacted against it,, “Religious views were mixed, with the Church of England scientific establishment reacting against the book, while liberal Anglicans strongly supported Darwin’s natural selection as an instrument of God’s design.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_On_the_Origin_of_Species As well, the concept of 'evolving souls', i.e. reincarnation, also lays at the pagan philosophical root of Darwinian thought,,, Exposing the Pagan Roots of Evolution [2007] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhlm_PK7Uw4 Thus, I find it interesting that unscientific liberal theology and claims of 'evolving souls' are still in play to this day, especially on a ID site. Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. bornagain77

BA77, I assume that you are well aware of the fact that these Hellish NDE-experiences demonstrate that there are scary places, but are not proof of an eternal Hell. Box

Dionisio: I googled 'age of grace', and am none the wiser. What is the point ? Apparantly everything is going to end some time, but so what ? Is this relevant to this discussion ? Graham2

For obscure reasons, some Christians hold that the behavior of a person during his earthly existence is all deciding. Most likely, things may be much clearer for a person after casting off the earthly body, opinions about reality may be radically altered, but that possibility doesn't seem important to some Christians. All important is whether you have come to the acceptance of Jesus as the only way during your earthly stay. It is as if - without a material body - a person is no longer a person. It is as if it no longer matters what a person thinks or does once he enters the afterlife. But I no longer hold that materialism is true. That doesn't count here!!! Anyone cares to explain? Box

134 Graham2 Please, answer the question in post #137. Thank you. Dionisio

131 Vishnu Have you heard the term 'age of grace'? Dionisio

128 Vishnu Do you have problems understanding and following directions? I asked you a very simple question which requires a very simple answer. Go ahead, give it another try if you want to. Thanks. Dionisio

Of footnote, It is interesting to note that Darwinism is rife with such faulty theodicy as some are trying to champion here: for example In fact, in the twisted world of Darwinian reasoning, Dr. John Avise used the fact that mutations are overwhelmingly detrimental, which is actually a powerful scientific argument against Darwinism, as a theological argument for Darwinism since, according to Darwinian theology, God would never allow such things as detrimental mutations: It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter – June 2012 Excerpt: “Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]” – Dr. John Avise – “Inside The Human Genome: A Case For Non-Intelligent Design” There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. – Dr. Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design – Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: “Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens.” I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found: Mutation total (as of 2014-05-02) – 148,413 http://www.hgmd.cf.ac.uk/ac/ Contrary to what Dr. Avise may believe, such an overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations is NOT a point of evidence in favor of Darwinism! In fact, it is a very powerful scientific argument against Darwinian claims,,, That this fact would even have to be pointed out to Darwinists is a sad testimony to how warped Darwinian thinking truly is in regards to the science at hand. Further notes as to the blatant misuse of Theology by Darwinists Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740 bornagain77

Dionisio: An eternity in a lake of fire doesn't sound like a holiday to me. I think its nonsense, but you, evidently believe it. The problem heathens, and some believers, have is how anyone could think such a fate could possibly be justified. What could a person do in 1 lifetime that could be so bad as to justify an eternity of suffering? Graham2

Moreover, as would be expected if General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics/Special Relativity (QED) were truly unified in the resurrection of Christ from death, the image on the shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process. The image was not formed by a ‘classical’ process::

The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.” Kevin Moran – optical engineer Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html

Personally, considering the extreme difficulty that many brilliant minds have had in trying to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and special relativity(QED), with Gravity,,,

A Capella Science – Bohemian Gravity! – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc Bohemian Gravity – Rob Sheldon – September 19, 2013 Excerpt: there’s a large contingent of physicists who believe that string theory is the heroin of theoretical physics. It has absorbed not just millions of dollars, but hundreds if not thousands of grad student lifetimes without delivering what it promised–a unified theory of the universe and life. It is hard, in fact, to find a single contribution from string theory despite 25 years of intense effort by thousands of the very brightest and best minds our society can find. http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/

I consider the ‘quantum’ nuance on the Shroud of Turin to be a subtle, but powerful, evidence substantiating Christ’s primary claim as to being our Savior from sin, death, and hell:

John 8:23-24 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins. G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) – poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385 Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Music:

Evanescence – The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch

bornagain77

As well, a man, at the 7:00 minute mark of this video, gives testimony of falling down a ‘tunnel’ in the transition stage from this world to hell:

Hell – A Warning! – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HSgH2AHkfkw&list=PLCB5F225ABC1F7330#t=420

In light of this dilemma that these two very different eternities present to us spiritually minded people, and the fact that Gravity is, in so far as we can tell, completely incompatible with Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity (i.e. Quantum Electro-Dynamics),,, string theory, M-theory, etc.. ,,in light of that dilemma, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:

Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation The Center Of The Universe Is Life (Jesus) - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462

bornagain77

Dionisio,

Now, I don’t quite understand what are non Christians complaining about. What fear are they talking about? What torment? They will be eternally separated from God, whom they denied all their lives anyway. Any problem with having what they want, forever? Don’t quite get it. Can you explain?

Sure...

Matthew 18:9: And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of Gehenna. Matthew 13:42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Rev 20:14-15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."[NKJV]

No, this is not merely a "place without God where all the non-God people want to go anyway" as you seem to characterize. It is described as an active place of torture. Now, why would a loving and merciful God throw anyone into a "fire of Gehenna" for endless torture instead of simply wiping out their consciousness? Vishnu

Once again I point to the empirical, scientific, evidence to support my case for two very different eternities and not just to any ones personal opinion as to whether there ought to be a hell or not. Physics itself tells us, as is held in Christian Theism, that there are two very different eternities associated with the reality we currently live in. One is a very ordered eternity associated with special relativity and the other is a very destructive eternity associated with general relativity.

“I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005 Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video https://vimeo.com/93101738 “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

And, as with accelerating to the speed of light, it is found that for any ‘hypothetical’ observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole, that time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them also. This is because the accelerative force of gravity at black holes is so intense that not even light can escape its grip:

Einstein – General Relativity – Thought Experiment – video https://vimeo.com/95417559 Gravitational time dilation tests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Gravitational_time_dilation_tests Space-Time of a Black hole – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8

And as with the ‘tunnel curvature’ we see for any hypothetical observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole, there is also tunnel curvature in for any hypothetical observer accelerating to the speed of light. Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).

Seeing Relativity – Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4

It is also very interesting to note that Special Relativity and General Relativity reveal two very different ‘qualities of eternity’ (as predicted in Christian Theism). In particular, Black Holes are found to be ‘timeless’ singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order, such as the extreme (1 in 10^10^123) order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang.

Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang? “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.” “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476

Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion! Moreover, we have actual observational evidence from Near Death Experience testimonies of 'eternity' and of people going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension,,,

‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680 “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://vimeo.com/79072924 Life After Life – Raymond Moody – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg

bornagain77

Vishnu Those who deny God, definitely don’t think of spending eternity in His glorious presence and don’t care about it. Therefore, they don’t have to fear an eternity of torment, because regardless of whether heaven is true or not, either way they won’t be forced to be in heaven against their will. I believe God is pure and just. Since no one meets His high standards, not even remotely in our most fantastic dreams, no one qualifies for eternity in heaven, regardless of what we think or do, or who we are, or how we talk, etc. Nobody. Read my lips: NOBODY. All that said, here comes the ‘compassionate’ part of the story: I believe, based on what is written in the scriptures, that God, in addition to being pure and just, is also loving and compassionate. In His love, which is unfathomable to us, He decided (i.e. by His own initiative) to provide a way for us to be in His glorious presence eternally. However, He doesn’t force anyone into this against our will. Those who deny God or get so irritated when someone praises God or mock God believers or don’t tolerate the mentioning of Christ as God, would be tormented in heaven, where all we want to do is praising God and enjoy His presence forever. But God, in infinite love and compassion, won’t force anyone to that kind of torment, against their will. Only those who know God intimately and want to enjoy His presence eternally, would long for heaven. Because that’s all heaven is: the wow! amazing indescribable opportunity to be in God’s glorious presence without the limitation of space or time. However, the pass to heaven has a high price we can’t pay. God provided that payment with the blood of Christ on the cross. Christ certified His credentials with His resurrection. Jesus claimed to be the only way to that eternal state. All we have to do is genuinely accept Him into our lives. It has been said that this world is the closest to heaven God deniers and mockers will ever be. And we can see they don’t like anything that reminds of what heaven is all about. Now imagine a place where the central focus constantly is God, because there’s no time boundaries. That, which for us who adore Christ will be the ultimate hallelujah! source of joy, must be a real torment for those who deny Christ. God in His infinite providence has allowed them to stay out of that eternal meeting. Actually, according to the scriptures, God has allowed the undecided to stay out too. It is only the ones who have decided to follow Jesus who will be taken into that wedding of the Lamb of God with His own church. However, the rest didn't want to be counted in to begin with. Now, I don’t quite understand what are non Christians complaining about. What fear are they talking about? What torment? They will be eternally separated from God, whom they denied all their lives anyway. Any problem with having what they want, forever? Don't quite get it. Can you explain? Thank you. Dionisio

Dionisio, Do you find a problem with the opening statement of Wiki article?:

"Apocalypticism is the religious belief that there will be an apocalypse, a term which originally referred to a revelation of God's will, but now usually refers to belief that the world will come to an end very soon, even within one's own lifetime."

This is how critical scholars typical mean by the term. Jesus and other pre-Christian Jewish apocalyptics thought that the end of the age was imminent or would have very soon, within a generation. Are you trying to make some other opaque point? Vishnu

"Please, don’t paste any link. Write it yourself. Thank you." Could someone please tell this to BA77. tintinnid

Vishnu, Please, don't paste any link. Write it yourself. Thank you. In the quoted text in post 123 there are three words written with bold characters. What's their root word? IOW, what's the original word those three bold words came from? Dionisio

BTW I am a huge fan of BA77. Box

Dionisio, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypticism For good treatments on the subject with reference to Jesus and pre-Christian Jewish apocalypticism see... http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Nazareth-Millenarian-Dale-Allison/dp/0800631447/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414015164&sr=1-1&keywords=jesus+of+nazareth+allison and http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Apocalyptic-Prophet-New-Millennium/dp/019512474X/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414015378&sr=1-5&keywords=jesus%2C+ehrman Vishnu

120 Vishnu

When the Jews came back to Judea, apocalypticism was born and the Babylonian and Persian idea of hell-fire was adopted by the apocalyptic groups. New Testament Christianity was an outgrowth of these Jewish apocalyptic movements.

Do you see the bold words? What do they mean? Where did you get that word from? Thank you. Dionisio

You know something, bornagain77. I realize that you're a darling of UD (I am not exactly sure why) but, after reading this thread, I am reminded of why I am sometimes ashamed to call myself a Christian. I am going to tell you this in all sincerity. You are the worst kind of Christians I want to be associated with. I'd rather hang out with prostitutes, drug dealers, ex-convicts and homosexuals. Don't even bother replying, man. Mapou

BA77 @ 119, This man had verified rigor mortis for three days? Vishnu

Mapou: Hell is a demonic concept created by corrupt church leaders Actually, the idea of a "place of burning fire where the wicked burn forever" predates New Testament Christianity. It does not exist in the Hebrew scriptures, and it did not exist within the Hebrew religion until the Babylonian captivity. When the Jews came back to Judea, apocalypticism was born and the Babylonian and Persian idea of hell-fire was adopted by the apocalyptic groups. New Testament Christianity was an outgrowth of these Jewish apocalyptic movements. Vishnu

Well Vishnu, you got me there, I know of no cases,,, wait a second,,, Heaven and Hell! man dead for 3 days visits Heaven and hell with angel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD38IPFFARE bornagain77

Those people's bodies went into rigor mortis prior to them "coming back"? I don't think so. Vishnu

“I think they are vivid dreams like lucid dreams" I can read English, and your position, i.e. 'they are vivid dreams', as I noted previously in the Parnia studies I cited, is found wanting. "I woke up in the Morgue" Near Death Experience - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxSQqY_JFhs or how about being run over by a semi-truck? 90 Minutes in Heaven - Don Piper - video - 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0aJFu-GlYg bornagain77

Hell is a demonic concept created by corrupt church leaders (a bunch of criminals, in my view) to subjugate and exploit the faithful. Mapou

Vishnu #111, I am in total agreement with you. Box

BA77,

As to the reality of NDEs and that they are not dreams as Vishnu want to contend

I didn't say that NDEs were "dreams", I said I believe them to be like lucid dream, which are not the same as regular dreams. What I said was, "I think they are vivid dreams like lucid dreams, and can have components of transpersonal or “spiritual” (i.e, "supernatural") elements." Please don't misrepresent me. At any rate, it would appear that "valid" NDEs are ones you agree with, and invalid ones are ones you don't agree with. I can understand why you would want to avoid answering my questions. Now, if you can come up with someone who is brain dead with rigor setting in, for, say, three or four days, then wakes up with stories to tell from "the other side", I might consider that experience something to be reckoned with. Thanks for playing. Vishnu

BA77: And what will you say to God when God asks you why you diluted just how severe separation from God is?

The belief that God is capable of torturing persons for eternity is a form of severe separation from God. Box

Vishnu, since you hold to some weird type of eastern religion, and I have shown the NDEs of those cultures to be the worse, empirically speaking, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on by focusing on anomalous western NDEs that don't fit the norm. But thanks for playing anyway! bornagain77

Box: Why do you believe that I’m [God] capable of torturing anyone for eternity? And what do you mean when you say that you love me, while holding this horrible image of me?

This is one of the reasons I jettisoned the God of classical theism. He is a monster. The real God is not a monster, and it is blasphemous in my view to claim he would torture anyone for eternity. Vishnu

BA77: Vishnu, I do not trust [Betty Eadie's] testimony,,, Embraced by the Light of Deception http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/eadie.html

You may disagree with her theology, but do you deny that she had a real NDE? And do you deny the reality of the NDEs of people who claim there is no hell, like this guy: http://iands.org/experiences/nde-accounts/858-there-is-no-hell-we-all-go-home.html

Moreover, I hold all NDE’s suspect to a certain extent and look for consistency across a wide spectrum of NDE’s to deduce what can be known for certain.

So you're confident in your own abilities to sort out truth from error, eh? Didn't Jesus say something about "wide is the gate that leads to death and narrow is the way that leads to life"? So, "common threads" (wide gate?) in NDEs are what you're using to discover what can be "known for certain?" Fascinating. Vishnu

And what will you say to God when God asks you why you diluted just how severe separation from God is? i.e.,,, of personal note, I'm sure that no human has every little doctrinal issue correct, but I do know that Judeo-Christian cultures have consistently positive NDEs and that non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an extreme rarity of positive NDE's, even hellish NDEs. If it comforts you to believe that simple annihilation in hell awaits those that reject God, so be it. The main point, as far as I am personally concerned, is that people understand that Judeo-Christian cultures have, by far, the best NDEs. Of note: If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI "Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being." Ned Dougherty's - Fast Lane To Heaven - Quoted from "To Heaven and Back" pg. 71 - Mary C. Neal MD “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html 1 John 1:5-7 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0 Moreover, the overwhelming love expressed in Near Death Experiences fits what would be expected from a Christian perspective: "The only human emotion I could feel was pure, unrelenting, unconditional love. Take the unconditional love a mother has for a child and amplify it a thousand fold, then multiply exponentially. The result of your equation would be as a grain of sand is to all the beaches in the world. So, too, is the comparison between the love we experience on earth to what I felt during my experience. This love is so strong, that words like "love" make the description seem obscene. It was the most powerful and compelling feeling. But, it was so much more. I felt the presence of angels. I felt the presence of joyous souls, and they described to me a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge about our divinity. Simultaneous to the deliverance of this knowledge, I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never." Judeo-Christian Near Death Experience Testimony http://iands.org/experiences/nde-accounts/736-never-wanted-to-leave-the-presence.html bornagain77

BA77, What do you have to say, if one day you stand before God and He asks:

Why do you believe that I'm capable of torturing anyone for eternity? And what do you mean when you say that you love me, while holding this horrible image of me?

Box

As to the reality of NDEs and that they are not dreams as Vishnu want to contend, I would like to point out this study from last week: Near-death patients do see afterlife by JENNY HOPE - October 8, 2014 Excerpt: The latest study, by Southampton University researchers, suggests the mind may continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function and the body is clinically dead. The research team studied 63 survivors of a cardiac arrest who were resuscitated at Southampton General Hospital after they had been clinically dead with no pulse, no respiration and fixed dilated pupils. Independent studies have confirmed that the brain ceases to function at that time. But seven out of the 63 survivors recalled emotions and visions during their unconsciousness, says a report in the journal Resuscitation. Four patients (six per cent) met the strict criteria used to diagnose NDEs. They recalled feelings of peace and joy, of time speeding up, heightened senses, lost awareness of body, seeing a bright light, entering another world, encountering a mystical being or deceased relative and coming to a point of no return.,,, It has been suggested that the experiences are hallucinations, the result of disturbed brain chemistry caused by medication, lack of oxygen or changes in carbon dioxide levels. But Dr Parnia said there was no difference in oxygen levels or drug treatment between the heart attack survivors who had not had NDEs and those who had. 'In fact, the four patients who met the criteria for a true NDE actually had higher oxygen levels,' he added. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html Parnia, who originally set a 'number test' up in a operating room to prove remote viewing, now concedes the evidence for remote viewing of the hospital room is 'very credible'? Life after death? Largest-ever study provides evidence that 'out of body' and 'near-death' experiences may be real - October 7, 2014 Excerpt: Dr Sam Parnia, an assistant professor at the State University of New York and a former research fellow at the University of Southampton who led the research, said that he previously (held) that patients who described near-death experiences were only relating hallucinatory events. One man, however, gave a “very credible” account of what was going on while doctors and nurses tried to bring him back to life – and says that he felt he was observing his resuscitation from the corner of the room. Speaking to The Telegraph about the evidence provided by a 57-year-old social worker Southampton, Dr Parnia said: “We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating. “But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes. “The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for. “He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largestever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-neardeath-experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html Michaela's Amazing NEAR death experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTcHWz6UMZ8 Another piece of evidence that argues very strongly against any type of materialistic explanation for Near death Experiences is what is termed 'Shared Death Experience'. A 'Shared Death Experience' is an experience in which a loved one, though not terminally ill, is caught up into part of the Near Death Experience as a loved one passes on: Dr. Raymond Moody on Shared Death Experiences - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-ihzzYjqeE bornagain77

Well, Jesus spoke about Hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19... For a Christian there is no question about whether or not Hades is a real place, the Bible makes clear mention of it as a real place. Chalciss

Vishnu, I do not trust her testimony,,, Embraced by the Light of Deception http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/eadie.html Moreover, I hold all NDE's suspect to a certain extent and look for consistency across a wide spectrum of NDE's to deduce what can be known for certain. I do not rely on just one NDE to make my case... thus my emphasis on the fact that all NDEs from eastern cultures are consistently bad. bornagain77

Hell is like a concentration camp next to town. I like that. Graham2

BA77:

Why An Eternal Hell is Justifiable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5G0YnrPPzo&list=UUBLXS_EYAKA0PrT2asv83Xg

Bill Wiese is a con artist from hell, IMO, a wolf in sheep's clothing. And so is everybody who preaches eternity in hell. Mapou

So, BA77, o you accept the testimony of this woman regarding her NDE?… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Eadie Vishnu

regardless that some western NDEs (of people who grew up in a Judeo-Christian culture), are accepting of reincarnation Vishnu, the FACT of the matter is that eastern cultures that have consistently hellish NDEs are the ones who believe in reincarnation, i.e. 'evolution of the soul', the strongest. Of note: Exposing the Pagan Roots of Evolution [2007] - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhlm_PK7Uw4 bornagain77

as to Ian Stevenson "His dualism became stronger after he experimented with mescaline and LSD". http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html Okie Dokie,,,, you don't mind if I hold his research suspect do you, or does a acid dropping Doc strike you as unimpeachable? bornagain77

BA77: And yet cultures that believe in reincarnation have the consistently worse NDEs. No thank you! I think I will stick to Christianity, and the culture which has extremely positive NDEs.

Maybe Christianity (or your version of it, anyway) was invented by an evil entity who is trying to trick humans with false information about the afterlife. How would you know? I'm curious, do you accept the testimony of this woman regarding her NDE?... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Eadie Vishnu

BA77: So you want to claim they are dreams that are more real that real?

I've had lucid dreams that seemed "more real than real." Were they "more real than real"? I don't know. But they seemed like it.

How convenient!

Huh?

So how do you know you are not dreaming now?

I don't completely. However, there is the continuity of memory that persuades me that I'm not dreaming right now in the normal sense of that word. Vishnu

And yet cultures that believe in reincarnation have the consistently worse NDEs. No thank you! I think I will stick to Christianity, and the culture which has extremely positive NDEs. bornagain77

So you want to claim they are dreams that are more real that real? How convenient! So how do you know you are not dreaming now? bornagain77

BA77 #85: So moral justice is never really actually dealt with in your worldview?

Not by eternal torturing. Moreover I believe that forgiving oneself is an exceedingly difficult once truth has sunk in. It may take a very long time before Hitler will be able to live with himself.

BA77 #85: Hitler just realizes in some future reincarnated life (...)

No, I stated that he will be confronted with his wrong doings during the afterlife.

BA77 #85: (...) that it was morally wrong to kill 6 million Jews and everything is all better?

I believe we are on this earth to learn from our mistakes - to grow self-awareness. This is not a test to separate the good and the bad.

BA77 #85: But, supposing reincarnation is just unscientific wishful thinking on your part, (as I hold it to be)

Ian Stevenson

BA77 #85: where is the moral justice in all that for all the people who were killed, and had their lives, and everything near and dear to them, torn apart by Hitler?

Nowhere. Without reincarnation, without the possibility to learn about oneself and others in future lives, I don't see how we can accommodate meaning for earthly existence. Box

Why An Eternal Hell is Justifiable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5G0YnrPPzo&list=UUBLXS_EYAKA0PrT2asv83Xg bornagain77

BA77: but alas your contention that NDEs are dreams fails scrutiny, ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’

Evidently you've not experienced a powerful lucid dream. I have many times. Vishnu

I can see why one would to discount NDEs as dreams if they believed in reincarnation, since NDEs in eastern cultures are consistently heliish,, 'Personally, I think they are vivid dreams like lucid dreams,' but alas your contention that NDEs are dreams fails scrutiny,,, 'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ Memories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs): More Real Than Reality? - Mar. 27, 2013 Excerpt: University of Liège researchers have demonstrated that the physiological mechanisms triggered during NDE lead to a more vivid perception not only of imagined events in the history of an individual but also of real events which have taken place in their lives!,,, ,,,researchers,, have looked into the memories of NDE with the hypothesis that if the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their phenomenological characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. details) should be closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are experienced in a way similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to the memories of real events. The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of patients, each of which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of healthy volunteers. They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and imagined events with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological characteristics of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective being studied, not only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but the phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real events (e.g. memories of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE than in the memories of real events. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130327190359.htm A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: To take the approach of, "Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain" is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it's an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html bornagain77

By the way, the Hebrew scriptures have no concept of "hell" in the sense of a fire and brimstone kind of place "where the wicked are burning but never consumed." These ideas were imported from Babylon and Persia because of the Jewish captivity. The apocalyptics of the inter-testamental period adopted these ideas and they eventually made it into the Christianity, one of several apocalyptic religions to come out of the period. Vishnu

Why would a loving creator keep anyone around for eternity in a place of torment? Why not just destroy their consciousness and be done with it? BTW, NDEs are evidence of nothing when it comes to answering this question, given that it's a near death experience nor a death experience. The people aren't actually dead. Or else they wouldn't "come back" and relate stories. Personally, I think they are vivid dreams like lucid dreams, and can have components of transpersonal or "spiritual" elements. (I have experienced these myself.) But I do not think anyone is actually dead when they have these experiences. Vishnu

And if king David could be forgiven for murder and adultery, so can people like Charles Manson, Hitler and Stalin be forgiven for whatever they did. Mapou

The concept of eternal suffering and damnation in hell is the work of the devil, IMO. Mapou

box as a footnote, Near Death Experiences from eastern cultures that believe in reincarnation are the worst NDE's for an overall culture that I've found: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson's research Except: "Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Also of note, Stalin, who killed more of his own people during peace time than Hitler killed during the war, shook his fist at the God he did not believe in on his death bed,,, “A story I heard personally from Malcolm Muggeridge (that stirred me then and still does even yet) was his account of a conversation he had with Svetlana Stalin, the daughter of Josef Stalin. She spent some time with Muggeridge in his home in England while they were working together on their BBC production on the life of her father. According to Svetlana, as Stalin lay dying, plagued with terrifying hallucinations, he suddenly sat halfway up in bed, clenched his fist toward the heavens once more, fell back upon his pillow, and was dead.” Ravi Zacharias, Can Man Live Without God, (Word Publ., Dallas: 1994), p. 26. Box, now taking into consideration that cultures who believe in reincarnation consistently have hellish NDE's, is Stalin in heaven or hell? bornagain77

Thanks to Barry for a bold action to open up the discussion here. There are a lot of risks that come along with this move but I think the benefits will outweigh the negatives. I think the greater diversity of ID-opponents will prevent threads from being dominated by one person (ES, RDFish) for several days. I think it can cut down on some of the frustration that leads to angry attacks and name-calling also. I've noticed it myself when there's a single opponent who simply denies the arguments given (sand castles vs sand piles) and refuses to answer questions, it gets to the point where it seems like personal insults are the only thing to do. When the conversations are more diversified, it's easier to just stop running in circles with a single individual who wants to play the merry-go-round game, and move on with people who are more open to what ID has to say. I'd advise returnees to read Mark Frank's posts as very good examples of how to disagree without being disagreeable. Silver Asiatic

So moral justice is never really actually dealt with in your worldview? Hitler just realizes in some future reincarnated life, that it was morally wrong to kill 6 million Jews and everything is all better? But, supposing reincarnation is just unscientific wishful thinking on your part, (as I hold it to be), where is the moral justice in all that for all the people who were killed, and had their lives, and everything near and dear to them, torn apart by Hitler? Psalm 58:10 The godly will rejoice when they see injustice avenged. They will wash their feet in the blood of the wicked. bornagain77

BA77 #83: I firmly believe in the afterlife, but not in a place called hell. So, how about Hitler? Well, I suppose that, in the afterlife (if he is there at the moment - I believe in reincarnation), Hitler has been (or will be) convinced of the wrongness of his tremendous cruelty and absurd ideas. Ultimately everyone will see the light - Hitler included. Box

correction do you believe Hitler is in heaven OR hell? bornagain77

Are you saying that, besides God, eternal torturing is a necessary part of a rational basis for ‘moral justice’? or to put it another way, do you believe Hitler is in heaven of hell? would it be 'morally just' for Hitler to be thrown in hell? If not why not? bornagain77

And yet for justice, mercy, and logic to even exist you must ultimately appeal to God, heaven, and hell in order to provide a rational basis for ‘moral justice’ as to your claim for the ‘unrighteousness’ of hell.

Are you saying that, besides God, eternal torturing is a necessary part of a rational basis for ‘moral justice’? Box

As to 'Perfectly baldardashery', what actually is 'Perfectly baldardashery' is the Darwinian belief that unguided processes can produce a level of complexity that man will never fully understand, much less mimic,, "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 2012 Excerpt: "This is bad news. Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year.",,, Even with shortcuts like averaging, "any possible technological advance is overwhelmed by the relentless growth of interactions among all components of the system," Koch said. "It is not feasible to understand,, organisms by exhaustively cataloging all interactions in a comprehensive, bottom-up manner." He described the concept of the Complexity Brake:,,, "Allen and Greaves recently introduced the metaphor of a "complexity brake" for the observation that fields as diverse as neuroscience and cancer biology have proven resistant to facile predictions about imminent practical applications. Improved technologies for observing and probing biological systems has only led to discoveries of further levels of complexity that need to be dealt with. This process has not yet run its course. We are far away from understanding cell biology, genomes, or brains, and turning this understanding into practical knowledge.",,, Why can't we use the same principles that describe technological systems? Koch explained that in an airplane or computer, the parts are "purposefully built in such a manner to limit the interactions among the parts to a small number." The limited interactome of human-designed systems avoids the complexity brake. "None of this is true for nervous systems.",,, to read more go here: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html bornagain77

And yet for justice, mercy, and logic to even exist you must ultimately appeal to God, heaven, and hell in order to provide a rational basis for 'moral justice' as to your claim for the 'unrighteousness' of hell. bornagain77

@ba77:

Are we going to follow our emotions, and not our science, as Charles Darwin did?

Sorry, I can't stop being empathic. :-( I start with the following self-evident truth: Torturing someone for the "crime" of having the wrong religion is self-evidently evil. Since God is good and hell exists, it follows: Hell is empty. Furthermore: If anyone is in hell, paradise will be like a village nearby a concentration camp. For empathic beings paradise will then become hell. Like I said:

If I would be in paradise knowing my wife (or anyone else) is in hell, paradise would become hell for me.

JWTruthInLove

Are we going to follow our emotions, and not our science, as Charles Darwin did? or are we going to trust God and what our science tells us?

I'm not following Charles D., since the concept of hell is no argument against ID nor an argument against my personal belief in a just God. However the concept of hell is an argument against Christianity - providing that the two are inextricably linked. Explain to JWTruthInLove, how to celebrate his stay in paradise, while his wife is tortured in Hell for eternity. Box

Peter b- you don't know what evidence is. ID has plenty of it. OTOH unguided evolution doesn't have anything. ATP synthase is evidence for ID. Living organisms are evidence for ID. Why? Because unguided processes cannot account for them and they meet the design criteria. Thanks fer playin' Joe

#64 No evidence then, as you cannot present it … Evidence is what I’m asking, not claims … Claims are all you have, Joe … After that many years of claims, no evidence at all … #67, 73 “One destructive eternity associated with General Relativity and one extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity,,,” This is absolutely beautiful! Perfectly baldardashery! How lucky trolls like Ba77 are allowed again! How clever to call reasonable dissent about hell ‘emotional’! As soon as anyone falls back on calling an argument ‘emotional’, it’s certain beyond any doubt or common dissent that this anyone has no rational arguments to counter what he won’t accept. Thank you for using this framing, Ba77! peter b

As to the emotional responses against hell, Darwin himself echoed that exact same sentiment,,,

"I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine. Charles Darwin - quoted from his autobiography http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/01/damnable-doctrine.html

and yet, as pointed out before, our physics itself, i.e. our science not our emotions, reveals to two very different ‘eternities’ to us, a destructive one and a ordered one:

Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit

As well, as pointed out before, the observational evidence is far, far, stronger for Near Death Experiences than it is for unguided neo-Darwinian evolution. Thus, the rational/scientific, not the emotional, conclusion is that, as far as our science itself can tell us, Hell is a real place. ,,, A bit more on Charles Darwin's emotional response against God, both Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same day and shared many strange similarities in their lives, but the one common thing they shared that separated the two men drastically was the way they choose to handle the evil that happened in their lives. Darwin, though drifting away from God for a long while, was permanently driven away from God because of what he perceived to be the 'unjust' death of his daughter, Whereas Lincoln, on the other hand, was driven from his mild skepticism into a deep reliance upon God because of the death of his son. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/is-atheism-rationally-justifiable/#comment-443197 i.e. Are we going to follow our emotions, and not our science, as Charles Darwin did? or are we going to trust God and what our science tells us? I like the following quote as to the proper attitude we should have,,,

"We are His masterpiece. The greatest creation he has ever made. See what God has to offer you. See what He can do and you will be amazed. When something hits you hard, don't put that blame on God put that weight on God. Say, "God, take that weight off me." And He will and He will carry you through the shadow of death, because He wants you to come out on the other side." - Mark Herzlich - The Linebacker Who Couldn’t Be Stopped by Cancer - video http://www.cbn.com/tv/3775240000001

Supplemenal note:

The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html

Also of note, Dr. Mary Neal reveals in her following testimony that although she loved her children very much, she wanted to stay in heaven very much and did not want to return to her children,,,

Present! - Mary Neal's Near-Death Experience - Sept. 2014 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as6yslz-RDw Dr. Mary Neal presents an in depth account of her near-death experience at the 2014 Conference of the International Association for Near-Death Studies in Newport Beach, California.

Verse and Music:

John 11:35 Jesus wept. Need You Now - Plumb - live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGIumjD6I3M

bornagain77

Graham2 #69: This cant be a widely held belief, its just sick.

JWTruthInLove #70: If I would be in paradise knowing my wife (or anyone else) is in hell, paradise would become hell for me.

I second wholeheartedly both Graham2 and JWTruthInLove. If hell is inextricably linked to Christianity I will never become a christian. IOW I will refuse to have anything to do with the Christian God. Box

Graham2 I'm not sure of your intentions, because I can't read your secret heart but this might help you... Matthew 12:32 ""Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;" You don't know if you ought to be a Christian Graham2, but you know you ought to be man, not an ostrich hiding his head in the sand. Is it not the job of everyman to devout his life to either accepting this secret to the universe or exposing it as the biggest sell on record? Andre

@Graham2:

This cant be a widely held belief, its just sick.

Yes it is. Also, hell doesn't make any sense. That's why hell might be an empty place. God doesn't send any one to hell. You either die (cease to exist) or you live in paradise. If I would be in paradise knowing my wife (or anyone else) is in hell, paradise would become hell for me. JWTruthInLove

BA77: I looked at a few minutes of the Wiese video (all I could take), and apparently I will be condemned to eternal torture for not believing in God. But God is love. Condemned for not believing something ? Tortured for my thoughts ? Does this sound moral to you ? Perhaps some other denizens of UD could comment. This cant be a widely held belief, its just sick. Graham2

corrected links: Former Atheist Howard Storm - video - part 1 http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342593001 part 2 http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342592001 bornagain77

Graham2 asks,,,

“To Bornagain77: Just in case there is something after I die, do you think I should repent/convert ? What if I don’t ? What do you think is waiting for me ?”

Well Graham2, if you refuse to have anything to do with God, and refuse forgiveness for your sin through the propitiation of Christ,,,

G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385

,, if you refuse that grace, then you will be separated from all the good and perfect things that are in God, and in God alone, and be placed or 'thrown' into hell,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Why Hell is so Horrible - Bill Wiese - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hd_so3wPw8

Graham2, you may say that you doubt that there is life after death, but there is in fact far more observational evidence for 'something after I die' than there is for unguided Darwinian processes building up functional complexity, (which is a myth that you seem to believe in so fervently),,

Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species, (or the origin of life, or the origin of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. per Evolution News and Views

And exactly as would be expected on a Theistic view of reality, we find two very different eternities in reality. One destructive eternity associated with General Relativity and one extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity,,,

Two very different ‘eternities’ revealed by physics: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit

As to,,

"do you think I should repent/convert ?"

Yes!

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

as to,,

What if I don’t ? What do you think is waiting for me ?

I've already listed this,, "Two very different ‘eternities’ revealed by physics: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell",, but to get more specific as to what is waiting on the other side for those who reject the the grace of God in Christ,

23 Minutes in Hell - Bill Wiese - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxKRoONrfY Hell - A Warning! – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HSgH2AHkfkw&list=PLCB5F225ABC1F7330#t=420 video - Hear Howard Storm’s moving firsthand account of his (Near Death) experience in Hell during a brush with death in Paris, France. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-hell-howard-storm-j922/#.UKzJ2YYsE30 video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKu3HIYsE30

It should also be noted that, contrary to pouplar belief,,, All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's:

Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g

bornagain77

What was I thinking? Of course Father Time, Mother Nature and some unknown process- the materialistic trinity- can produce just about anything. Thanks Andre- on this we can agree! ;) Joe

Joe don't be daft now! You know we can't distinguish between a pile of Legos and a Lego castle..... it is impossible..... Also a heap of sand and a sand sculpture is impossible to differentiate!!! We also can't say with any certainty if Mount Rushmore is the product of natural processes or design...... The same applies for molecular machines, they just build themselves, just give them a chance and some time Joe you are too impatient! Seriously Joe! :) Andre

peter b- the evidence for ID has been presented time and again. Your ignorance is duly noted. Joe

#36 “Hopefully I’m wrong and a few ‘trolls’ will finally be honest to the evidence for design and have a change of heart, and humbly, and truly, ask for forgiveness from the only one who is truly qualified to grant it to humans when they ask for it,,, since, in reality, it is against God alone, and God alone, that all men have sinned and must give a final account” BA77 knows so much about science … Perhaps he should present his evidence for design … Screaming against evolution doesn’t count … So nothing whatever ever presented here does count … Ask for forgiveness, bornagain77, for your arrogance …. It would be fitting you did so … peter b

Hi, everyone! Did you miss me? I know KF did. :-) keith s

Graham2 "To Bornagain77: Just in case there is something after I die, do you think I should repent/convert ? What if I don’t ? What do you think is waiting for me ?" Off hand I'd say, "Death", the opposite of "Life" in other words "nonexistence, but then you already believe in that. DavidD

I am happy with the moderators unbanning people, and I am very much looking forward to Diogenes, Nick Matzke and anyone else that believe in macro evolution to showcase their evidence, I am so looking forward to Nick's book, Jerry Coyne's Why evolution is true was such a let down and I might add all his talk always starting with bashing creationists are stale...... But I really want evidence! Especially around how PCD could have evolved in small incremental steps! Andre

tintinnid, I suspect that you (like Richard Dawkins and other atheists with a personal axe to grind) are looking for revenge because you were abused by Christians as a child? Truly pathetic. Keep this in mind. In spite of your rage, you're still just a rat in a cage. Courtesy, the Smashing Pumpkins. :-D Oh, by the way, how many Christian churches have you desecrated this week? Mapou

I don't even remember what I said. It was years ago. I think I was in some sort of pissing match with Barry though. tragic mishap

Louis, it must be nice to be a legend in your own mind. "tintinnid, my board is meant for just a handful of people..." Or just if interest to a handful of people. tintinnid

tragic mishap @47: Most of us have been banned at one point or another it seems. :) In my case I suspect it was administrative oversight, but who knows? Maybe I said something I shouldn't have? Eric Anderson

To Bornagain77: Just in case there is something after I die, do you think I should repent/convert ? What if I don't ? What do you think is waiting for me ? Graham2

tintinnid, my board is meant for just a handful of people who share a very narrow (crackpot) interest. I don't need a crowd. I'd probably kick you out the minute you open your mouth to say anything. LOL. Mapou

Great, a band of the banned :razz: Joe

"I'm getting the banned back together" :P rich

Louis, do you have your own discussion board? If yes, you must be lonely. tintinnid

In my opinion, a discussion board should be run like a dictatorship with just 1 rule. Board Rule: Anybody can say anything they want but, if the boss does not like you, out the door you go. The internet is a huge free for all field where people compete for the attention of others. If your site sucks, then you will lose your readership. It's simple, really. Mapou

LoL!@ tintinnid- if I am a mental midget then you are brain dead. Barry's move will just give the readers a way to witness the stupidity of our opponents' arguments without leaving UD. Joe

"Considering what I was responding to, yes. And by allowing the banned back here the bar has been buried." Joe G., I was getting bored debating mental midgets like you, Louis and Gordon. Barry's brave move could only improve the IQ of the discussion. Barry, if I find out that this decision was just made to increase your hit count to get more ad revenue, I will be disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed. tintinnid

Barry- Something to consider- you may want to cut down on the number of new posts per day or week now that there are more people posting. That way new debates don't scroll off of the front page too quickly. Joe

Anyone who posts on this thread is probably a troll testing to see if they've been unbanned. Except for me. You know why? 'Cuz I had my tray table up and my seat back in the full upright position. *I was actually banned from UD once under the name "tragicmishap" and immediately made a new account, this one. I often wondered why anyone thought that banning usernames would actually work.* tragic mishap

Seeing how quickly all these previously banned folks have come back to UD makes me wonder why they like it so much here? :) Dionisio

Quest, A little too late. That information is already available here: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-520590 :) Dionisio

Great move!!! Finally, Diogenes will be able to provide us with his secret scientific evidence for abiogenesis, biochemical evolution and obviously macroevolution... Diogenes claims that the moment he had begun to expose ID fallacious theories and providing scientific evidence for the life origins without the need for ID, he was immediately banned here... which I have no choice but to believe... Now... take it away Diogenes...! Quest

Oh great, now I have to remember how to multiply... Bob O'H

Im back! and Im not even going to mention the reference to ghosts. Graham2

Actually, I question some of the posts of Joe here too. I usually like what he has to say, but his name calling leaves a lot to be desired. Claiming one is justified because of who he is talking to doesn't fly in my book. So far the opposition has been cordial anyway, so his claim makes no sense. tjguy

Alan Fox:

Rather than trawl through UD archives, I’ll accept that I misinterpreted a comment by you and if you want to assure me that you made no such remark, I’m happy to concede my question was based on a false premise.

Well, now that you're here Alan, trawl away. Mung

Well, this should be interesting. Up first: Barry, it seems like a lot of people just didn't believe you and had to see for themselves. Mung

Aleta:

Are Joe’s string of comments acceptable?

Considering what I was responding to, yes. And by allowing the banned back here the bar has been buried. Anything else I can help you with? Joe

Are Joe’s string of comments acceptable? If so, the bar for other people’s conduct is being set pretty low.

That comment was inevitable. Daniel King

As to amnesty, being a Christian, I am all for forgiveness. Much in need of it, and very thankful for it, myself. But in an atheistic worldview without a moral law how can sin even exist? much less forgiveness for sin?,,, Especially when it was not asked for? I'm sure the atheists/Darwinists who have been forgiven by Mr. Arrington are happy to be able to comment again, but I personally believe it is not because they regret one iota of what they have done in the past to get themselves banned, but it is instead because they can continue to 'troll' their atheistic nonsense. At least that is my read of the situation so far. Hopefully I'm wrong and a few 'trolls' will finally be honest to the evidence for design and have a change of heart, and humbly, and truly, ask for forgiveness from the only one who is truly qualified to grant it to humans when they ask for it,,, since, in reality, it is against God alone, and God alone, that all men have sinned and must give a final account.

Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests – December 2011 Excerpt: Last year scientists were able to replicate marks on the cloth using highly advanced ultraviolet techniques that weren’t available 2,000 years ago — nor during the medieval times, for that matter.,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words ‘The Lamb’ – short video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=J21MECNU

Verse and Music:

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge. Completely - Among The Thirsty http://myktis.com/songs/completely/

bornagain77

Are Joe's string of comments acceptable? If so, the bar for other people's conduct is being set pretty low. Aleta

"Rich and Bill. No special reason. I’m curious to see what would happen." Are you regretting it yet? tintinnid

Rich and Bill. No special reason. I'm curious to see what would happen. Barry Arrington

I too am testing.... DNA_Jock

Like Petrushka, just testing. Arthur Hunt

Richie, no one cares what you "recall". And when I am playing on your side it is easy to switch vocabulary you twit. Do you think your evercookie is in my new laptop?:razz: Joe

Rich is such a brainiac, this is a rwecent fail of his: This is too funny. I asked Richie what, if not mass, makes our universe the size that it is? Richie answered by posting a link as to how we measure distances in the universe! Seriously, take a look for yourselves Richie is a cupcake who is a total failure in life. Joe

Joe, as I recall you didn't even know how 'google cache' worked. I'm pleased your skills have improved since! An N-Gram analysis also gives you away as your vocabulary is constrained by various phrases you can't help saying. Sorry for the derail - I'll try and not feed the troll any further. @Barry, @Bill, I too am intrigued by the change of heart / policy and would love to know the motivation if you'd be so kind as to share? rich

LoL!@ cupcake- So my socks can't use another "box"? Really? Look Richie, I know about IP addresses so I would never post on TSZ from my home computer. Morons Joe

/Sorry for the derail: Joe has no socks. We dropped an evercookie on his box and also fingerprinted it using panopticlick. /We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. rich

BTW Alan, you are not trustworthy. No need to give up what I already have Joe

Alan, I don't make deals with known losers. And I am a-OK the way it is. It's fun to play on the opponent's side... Joe

Oops "omit "with you". "I'll intercede for your reinstatement." Alan Fox

I do have a sock or two floating about the place.

Joe, I'll make a deal with you. If you can show me that you have been posting at TSZ under an alias, I'll intercede with you for reinstatement. For me it's win-win. To pass under the radar, you must have been posting substantive, non-abusive comments with accurate spelling and grammar so there's a case to be made for reinstating you. If, as I suspect, you're making stuff up I won't need to bother. Alan Fox

LoL!@ fatman Fox I wouldn't post at TSZ even if I was paid to do so. However I do have a sock or two floating about the place. :razz: Joe

Hi Chubs Sorry to inform you that The Skeptical Zone is not considering emulating Mr Arringtons's experiment just yet. This means you will remain on our banned list along with... Oh, it's just you. :) Alan Fox

The problem with Alan Fox is he thinks that being a total jerk and misrepresenting your opponents = dissent. Joe

rich@6 It already has, rich ,it already has Joe

I am curious (but not yellow). Why now? Reciprocating Bill

Frankly, images of this scene from Ghostbusters went through my mind as a pressed the “release” button.

Your gonna get slimed! :D Vishnu

So Uncommon Descent has now become like the prison of Crematoria (i.e. The Chronicles of Riddick)? Oh well, time to brush up on 'death by tea cup' skills,,, Death By Tea Cup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx1XhlPIeEM bornagain77

As a moderator on another site, I certainly respect the need for a "ban" and "moderate" list. That said, I think that UD has been very much quicker than I would be at banning the opposition. Secondly, I would very much like to see a system whereby banned people can appeal to get unbanned -- whether that be by explaining their actions, apologizing for their actions, or at least committing to changed behavior. Cornelius Hunter, on "Darwin's God", has been much more generous with dissenters. I see the result being a much more integrous dialog. Moose Dr

Alan, identifying a troll is not always easy. When you are dealing with ID, religion and science, it is difficult not to provoke an emotional response. And sometimes, this emotional response is the trigger for productive discussion. But only if the abusive language, belittling, name calling and condescending attitudes are left at the door. Easier said than done. I know that I can be as guilty as any at times. tintinnid

Barry writes;

There were hundreds of trolls trapped in the “banned” and “moderation” queues.

In the past, I've re-registered under an alias and I suspect that others have as well. So there may not be too much cause for concern. And I wish people would reserve the word "troll" for those that fit the definition. Wiki:

In Internet slang, a troll (/?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Of course it carries the difficulty of being able to divine someone's intent. Alan Fox

I (i.e., Barry Arrington) am almost certainly going to regret this decision and sooner rather than later.

Hard choices, Barry. the trouble is there is dissent. Not everyone that disagrees with you is a troll and not everyone that agrees with you is a saint. Alan Fox

Just testing. Petrushka

...went through my mind as a pressed the “release” button...

...went through my mind as I pressed the “release” button...

Dionisio

Good move (I think). I hope people use it wisely. Neil Rickert

Testing. Testing. 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... So I was banned/in moderation after all. hrun0815

We shall see, Joe, we shall see! rich

LoL!@rich- ID can withstand scrutiny. It cannot stand ignorant spewage which is all our opponents have. Joe

And I just went to see the 30th anniversary version of Ghostbusters in a theater, and that scene (as well as many others) is great! Aleta

Well, the "UD / ID" community can't withstand scrutiny and must heavily moderate to appear viable charge seems to be off the table. ID moves forward.. rich

Fair play Barry and Co. I've been critical of both ID and its moderation but this is a positive development and I think a good thing for ID - if ID is correct then it will withstand scrutiny and develop from it, if it isn't correct then knowing that is also useful. I'm going to try my best to engage the locals in the positive spirit in which I think this post was meant. I don't think Joe should be making any rules, though. ;) KUDOS again. rich

What you need are some rules: 1- Stay on-topic 2- It is OK to bash ID if and only if you can demonstrate how your position is the better explanation 3- Also if you say that ID is not scientific you have to demonstrate how your position is 4- No cussing Joe