MA3 rim durability

I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was
weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I currently weigh 185ish, and have always
been
a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks, dodge potholes, no curb
jumping.

Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more
cracks
from developing?

Thanks for your thoughts. Ken

You don't say what kind of spokes were used. This sort of failure is
much more common with straight-gauge spokes, less common with butted spokes.

Can also be related to a wheelbuilder getting overenthusiastic about
high tension.

Sheldon "Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. |
| --Salvor Hardin (Isaac Asimov) |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Whoever said that was wrong. And there are always multiple posts
explaining why it is wrong to equate the MA3 with the MA2. The MA2
was one of the best bike rims of all time, being good for 20,000 miles
(unless you wore through the sidewalls braking in wet conditions).
The MA40, which was the same rim as the MA2 but anodized, was prone to
cracking just like your rim.

Despite the similarity in names, the rims are designed very
differently from each other. First off, the MA3 is a single ferrule
design whereas the MA2 is a socketed design. The socketed design is
better because spoke loads are distributed to the rim bed and the rim
top; with the single ferrule design the spoke loads are all loaded on
the rim top. Second, the MA3 is anodized whereas the MA2 was polished
aluminum. Anodizing- even so-called "soft" anodizing- increases the
likelihood of failure by cracking. Third, the MA3 has the sidewalls
preworn out by the manufacturer machining of the sidewalls, whereas
the MA2 still had the full thickness of the extrusion.

IMHO it's no contest- the MA2 was a great rim and the MA3 is a dog
just like all the rest of the rims currently on the market (that I
know about anyway; I'd love to hear otherwise).

If the rim is cracked, it's shot. I wish I had a good recommendation
to make as a replacement. IMHO the last good rim on the market was
the MA2. As far as I know there are no 700C socketed, polished,
non-machined rims on the market currently.

Until the marketplace wises up and stops buying products with an
unconsionably short lifespan, we'll keep getting ripped off with
products that are crap. It's as much our own fault- for believing the
hype and buying accordingly- as it is theirs.

Also, is that an MA-3CD?

Robin Hubert

The MA40 was hard anodised. The MA3 is not, so is not so prone to
cracking.

By how much? Do MA3s and Open Pros fail through cracking as often as
MA40s?

Are the sidewalls not made thicker in the first place to allow for the
machining? In any case, is sidewall wear a serious issue for the average
MA3 owner?

~PB

--
==================
Kraig Willett
www.biketechreview.com
==================
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-A59FF5....@gemini.visi.com...

A trick question!!! As I recall, the MA 2 has *always* had a satin
silver anodized finish. The "2" in the model name distinguished it
from the MA model which was a plain, (polished, not anodized) but now
highly prized trophy.

Sorry, I don't recall the years in which the various models (MA, MA 2,
MA 40) first appeared.

-------------------------------
http://www.businesscycles.com
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Now in our twentieth year.
Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
-------------------------------

Not at all as far as I can tell because I bought all the last ones I
could find around here and they all have only a shiny polished finish.

Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA

The only reason I ask is because I have this old Mavic catalog without a
year on it that says the MA2 has an anodized finish.

I have scanned the page section and posted it here:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N41123C83

from what I remember, I got this catalog in the mid 90's, and judging from
the many Indurain pics in it, that timeframe makes sense.

Sheldon Brown wrote:

Didn't think spoke type would make a difference, but they are 14g DT.

Ken

Robin Hubert wrote:

No, just plain, brushed(?) aluminum ($30).

Ken

I agree that the MA-3 is a good rim but i wouldn't agree that is is 'better'
than the MA-2.

We have built loads of these w/o this issue..

Adequate/proper tension and proper number of spokes(36 at least in the rear is
what i would rec. for you)-

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

They can....

Altho I agree that the MA-3 is not the rim of the MA-2-I have built many and if
done properly, make for a long lasting wheelset(proper tension, spoke count,
etc).

The CXP-33, new CXP-22, Torelli master, Velocity Deep V and Aerohead, and
Ambrosio Excellence can all make for a good wheelset. are also all good rims.

The cuurent crop of rims are not what they used to be but can still be made
into a long lasting wheelset...all is not that bad.

So on Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:51:29 -0500, I blurted out:

Oops.

On checking further, the info above is incorrect (and they said that
*short term* memory would be the first to go...).

The MA model was a single eyelet design. The eyelets in the MA 2 were
socket types and had a simple polished finish. There was also a MA 2
Argent which added satin silver anodizing to the MA 2. The MA 2 Argent
model existed as a discrete model at least through Mavic's '90/'91
catalogue.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Miami, Florida
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Our catalogue of track equipment: seventh year online

Ken,

Tension balancing and proper spoke tension are the keys.
Double butted spokes also help by spreading the dynamic loads. We are
talking about over 100 kgf in spoke tension on the drive side of a properly
built wheel. Each of those spokes must have the same tension. The author
of the book "The Art of Wheel Building", Gerd Schraner, is quoted at the DT
Swiss websit at URL:
http://www.dtswiss.com/en/laufradbau-faq.html
"Why are some spokes, especially those on expensive bikes, thinner in the
middle section?

The use of these "reduced" spokes allow longer-life wheels to be built.
Spokes with a thinner mid-section aren't just lighter and more aerodynamic
but, more importantly, are much more elastic than normal straight-edged
spokes. When placed under extreme overloads, they react in a similar way to
resiliant bolts used in the machine industry.
If a wheel undergoes rapid radial forces, for example a bump, the spokes
spring as they take up the overload, thus protecting the hub."

Gerd talks about protecting the hub, but I know that at the otner end of the
more elastic spoke is the rim. The elasticity of th spoke helps protect the
rim as well.

I still think that the statement at the Wheelsmith website at URL
http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html bears repeating:
"Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability,
and the key is high, uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most
difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It is the characteristic of
the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and
science, and focusing on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was
pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the foundation of our process.
Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's strength
because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some
builders' claims about trueness, because what really matters is not how true
a wheel is now, but how true it is 1,000 miles from now."

If you wheelbuilder understands these things and applies them properly,
stick with him.
If you need another wheelbuilder make sure your budget allows for double
butted spokes and the time it takes to have them properly tensioned and
tension balanced. Jobst Brandt's book, Sheldon Brown's website, and
Barnett's Chapter 17 cover these items in detail.

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

Funny thing, I read John Dacey's first post, asserting that MA2s were
anodized, and went downstairs to look at mine. They "looked" anodized
to me, but then I read Jobst's post and thought "Jobst is never wrong
about these things." Then I followed the above url, and I guess at
least some MA2s were anodized, and I think my pair are among them.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

As has been explained previously by the engineering types, in this
effect anodizing is anodizing.

IME yes. Obviously I can't quantify it and the industry doesn't
collect data on this- only on sales. Well, they don't collect failure
rate data and share it, anyway.

As has been previously explained in one of the many threads on the
topic, extrusions are not perfectly straight. Even if the sidewalls
are made thicker in the die for the extrusion, when you machine them
some places will be thinner than others.

How the hell would I know? :-) What's an "average" MA3 owner vs. any
other rim?

My final year MA2s have no anodizing on them.

No MA2 I have ever seen has had any type of anodizing whatsoever.
They are polished aluminum.

This may be a stupid question, but how can you tell if a rim has "clear"
anodizing?

Art Harris

Module E /E2 appeared around 1975/76 in polished or anodized (argent), 700c
or 27x11/4
MA2, MA3, the old Module 3, Module 4, MA40 and G40 in polished, argent or
grey/brown were introduced afterwards. Module 4 was available with 48 holes.

I've just bought a pair of polished MA2 (green/yellow label). A pair of
silver-anodized MA2 were left behind.

The new MA3 seems to be a poor sustitute

Michael

"Hard anodizing of aluminum, in contrast to
cosmetic anodizing, produces a porous ceramic oxide that forms in the
surface of the metal, as much as 1/1000 inch thick, about half below
the original surface and half above."
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8c.2.html

"It should be apparent that
thin cosmetic anodizing cannot have much effect and that the harder
(thicker) the anodizing the more likely cracking becomes."

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cosmetic+anodizing+brandt&hl=en&lr=&ie=U
TF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=CqzFJJ.AI%40hpl.hp.com&rnum=4

~PB

"Harris" <aha...@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:GZu5a.4496$io.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...

Rub a cloth over a spot between spokes. If it comes away black it was a
polished aluminum finish.

--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971

So your conclusion would then be that the Mavic catalog I own was a
mis-print?

A green and yellow label like this one:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N41123C83

Which is described as an anodized rim by the folks at Mavic.

That is not my opinon.

I believe that there is a difference between cosmetic and hard anodizing.

"Kraig Willett" <kdubent...@adelphia.net.remove> wrote in message
news:ZVA5a.1605$aq6.2...@news3.news.adelphia.net...

That link says the MA2 is clear anodized.

How are they holding up?

http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims/mavicroad.html

What is shown is not a silver anodized rim but a polished finish one
with possibly a Clear Alodine treatment. Silver anodized has the fine
granular appearance of silver paint. The rim shown is a true MA-2 and
is not anodized. Anodizing always causes a matte finish.

As I said, I believe the translator or someone unclear on the process
chose the words and they are wrong. One way to test his is to see if
the rim is an insulator by using it as a contact bridge for a test
bulb continuity tester.

I recall that at the time when Mavic changed hands about ten years
ago, one of the main investors was a metal finishing company that,
coincidentally, did a lot of anodizing. At that time the MA-40 and a
lot of other garbage was introduced, ultimately scrapping all the
existing and reliable products. As you can see on their web site, it's
a lot of hype with SUP, UB, MAXTAL, CD, CERAMIC, TUBELESS, and other
hi-tech come-ons.

The management change before that got rid of all the old product
labels, substituting the mod "MAVIC---M" label and similar ones. This
is not the Mavic we used to know in the days before ZAP and Mektronic.

Shimano says their Dura Ace parts are anodized. They don't appear
matte to me.

http://tinyurl.com/682w

Campy parts are anodized. They don't appear matte to me.

http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=4&cid=7&pid=85

My polished Control Tech stem is anodized. It doesn't appear
matte to me.

http://www.controltechbikes.com/2002.asp

The clear anodize wheel parts that I have experience developing
appeared non matte.

The French wording appearing above the English wording in the link
to the catalog page was translated wrong?

Other wording in the same catalog:
-colorless anodizing
-silver anodizing
-hard anodized

There are 30 rim offerings in the catalog I have. All of them are
described as anodized. It would seem to be an inconsistent story
to sell one flavor of rim that wasn't anodized when the other 29
rims in the line were. Just doesn't seem like something that
would be done.

So, why don't those with MA2's and a multimeter just do the
test and let us know the results?

I stated no conclusions. All I said was that my MA2s produced in the
final year of their production run have no anodizing on them. You can
draw your own conclusions.

Fair enough.

What was the final year of production?

Do you own a multimeter?

Every MA-2 I ever saw, mostly during the early '90s, had a shiny,
polished, clear anodized finish. Distinctly different looking than a
completely non-anodized rim like the Super Champion 58.

Chalo Colina

Just like the original ModuleE (polished) and Module E E2/Argent but with
the green/yellow label.

Michael

I haven't got a multimeter, but I have done some tests with a simple
home-made bulb/fuse tester........

[] Old Rigida polished aluminium rim, and old Sakae SA al cranks are good
conductors. (A light press on contacts illuminates the LED in my
circuit).

[] MA2* and Campagnolo Veloce and Racing T "anodized" al crank and rear
derailleur body: relatively poor conductors. (LED only lights up when
contacts pressed hard).

[] Campagnolo Chorus 2001 brake levers and hubs, and Mavic Open Pro blue
soft-anodized: insulators (Can't get LED to light at all).

By the way, the rims in the catalogue pictures posted in this thread are
old examples. Mavic changed their logo since then (to the yellow Mavic
"oval") - which did appear on later MA2 examples......

* Pair supplied with a bike bought in the UK in 1999 (with Mavic's current
logo).
- I can believe that they are coated with something - but it must be
very thin and clear. The (silver) colour is slightly lighter than that of
my Rigida, and dirt always wipes off extremely easily. The finish is
glossy, not what I would call matt - as is that of Chorus hubs, too.

~PB

"Bluto" <chump...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b4b7de4.03022...@posting.google.com...

Jobst may have chosen his words hastily but he makes a good point that
anodized rims do not show the mirror bright finish of a polished aluminum
surface. Although anodized finishes range from matte to a milky satin they
just don't glisten like this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/1622.html

http://www.bikepro.com/products/rims/mavicroad.html

> http://tinyurl.com/682w

http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=4&cid=7&pid=85

http://www.controltechbikes.com/2002.asp

You may be right. I sampled one of my MA-2 rims and gave it a rub
with Simichrome polish and it did not affect the surface nor was there
any aluminum on the cloth. However, if this is a thin anodizing it
should show cracks on a well used rim under edge lighting. There
should be signs of chipping from scratches caused by grit or spoke
lacing. That is, there is no indication of surface hardness by even
the smallest surface blemish.

I am convinced these parts are clear alodine finished because there is
no indication of a hard crust on the MA-2 rims, new and used from
years ago. On the other hand, my DuraAce and Campagnolo cranks and
chainwheels have a milky finish.

> So, why don't those with MA2's and a multi-meter just do the test and

I just did that and got my flashlight bulb to light using the shiny
"anodized" surface as a return path without high contact pressure or
rubbing. Just a light contact.

There is this website that might be helpful:
http://www.anodizing.org/what_is_anodizing.html

I have 64 Chevelles with anodized aluminum trim, so anodizing's been around
awhile.
It is(was)very shiny to complement the chromed and stainless steel pieces.
Sad but true: I can probably tell you what each piece of trim on a 64 Chevelle
was made out of. : )

Pete Geurds
Douglassville, PA

I was under the impression that chromate conversion coatings (e.g. Alodine,
Iridite), though electrically conductive, were not abrasion resistant - i.e,
they
are easily scratched off and leave the bare metal exposed and susceptible to
corrosion.

If you polished it and nothing came off, and your rims show no signs of
scratching (if I understand correctly), I can't believe it was chromate
conversion coated.

The electrical conductivity is a bit odd, though - maybe not a thin
anodize, but a super-duper-thin anodic coating ? The MIL specs say
that the layer can be 0.00020" thick - which is in the range of _thickness_
of a chromate conversion coating. Is it possible that the electrical
conductivities are also similar? I don't know the answer to that
question.

Anyway, it appears that there is still no clear resolution
on what year Mavic began anodizing the MA2 from where I stand.

My speculation would be that your MA2's are sulfuric anodized with an
extremely thin layer - i.e, clear anodized.

In Denmark the MA2 were available in a polished version (like the old Module
E) and in a anodized version (like the old Module E2/Argent)

Argent being the french word for (sølvglans in danish) silver sheen

"Clear anodize" indicate a layer of "transparent aluminum oxide" and it
seems to be conductive as well, odd

Michael

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Fine, considering I built them a couple of years ago and have ridden
them exactly once. :-)

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

None of the MA2 rims I ever built with or saw, mostly after 1990, were
quite so shiny either. They were shiny without seeming buffed, and
they never displayed the same dulling or spotting that bare polished
aluminum rims did. Neither did they display the slight milkiness of
the polished & anodized surface on parts from Nitto. It was a very
similar shiny anodized finish to that found on most cheap no-name MTB
stems these days.

The silver finish Module 3, Module 4, and Oxygen M6 of the same
general period had the same shiny-anodized surface. The 231, 261, and
281 MTB rims that followed all had the frosty matte-anodized surface
that has come to typify Mavic rims made since then.

Chalo Colina

Aluminum will form a thin passive oxide layer all by itself, which is an
insulator. Sure it is very thin, but I suppose one could avoid
penetrating it if they were very gentle with the probes. Naturally that
would result in a high ohm reading.

Tim McNamara wrote:
>

> IMHO it's no contest- the MA2 was a great rim and the MA3 is a dog
> just like all the rest of the rims currently on the market (that I
> know about anyway; I'd love to hear otherwise).
>
> If the rim is cracked, it's shot. I wish I had a good recommendation
> to make as a replacement. IMHO the last good rim on the market was
> the MA2. As far as I know there are no 700C socketed, polished,
> non-machined rims on the market currently.

Check out the Ukai 20A rims:

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=131&subcategory=1197&brand=&sku=8137&storetype=&estoreid=

Despite the statement "Silver anodized finish," they are not. The "more
info" button pops up with finish = polished. I bought two sets just for
the rims. They are more a brushed finish than anything (not super
shiney, but not anodized). They have SS double eyelets and weigh about
480g apiece. They are not machined. They are welded at the joint, but
Ukai seems to have done a decent job with that on the 2 sets I have. I
have not wrecked or worn out a rim, and so am not certain of the cross
section (I'd saw it to find out). By the dimensions and appearance, I
suspect they are a simple box section design -- sort of like MA2's.

If you don't like the hubs and spokes, you can throw them away. The
spokes are 14g no-name SS (probably Japanese). I have not broken any.
The wheels came with questionable tensioning. I increased tension and
stress relieved the spokes. In short, this product seems fine for
training. However, one caveat is that I don't have sufficient mass to
severely test them.

You can't beat $90 for a _wheelset_ (Nashbar has had them at $80 too!).
Time will tell regarding these rims. They do seem "MA2-ish," if that is
what you like. Who has got more data on the Ukai 20A rims?