Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I think ive read a few things on this, but cant recall the prevalent theory. It appears to me from photographs, that Andrews skull damage was to his left side, and Abby's to her right. Is this correct?, and were both not attacked from behind? Why would damage be to different sides of the head?

The answer to these questions are numerous and complicated- that may be why there has been no response. If you go to the website, and read the "Blood Evidence" and the autopsy reports, then you may get some information, as well as anyone else here.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary/Evidence.htm


That's just a suggestion.
To be brief, Abbie was considered to be standing and facing her attacker for the first blow.
Andrew was considered to be lying down on the sofa with his face a bit towards the sitting room windows.

The question about *handedness* is still debated- but the experts who were there and saw the bodies and the wounds would not conclude that a left-handed person had been the assailant.

thnx, i will have to check it out when i get back. going on vacation for awhile now. cruise to Alaska with wife and her grandparents. I had a trip to the east coast and the Borden B&B in the works earlier this year but plans fell through... OWell, Alaska might be as good as the Lizzie Borden house if I have too! I will get over there on my next Vacation.

You've got a new picture! Nice one!

Sorry about the non-committal answer, but without the testimony, you would be getting the synthesis of what someone else read.

As for Alaska, WOWIEZOWIE! Have a Blast![img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/r/dance.gif[/img]

post the pictures of alaska. I was stationed at fort wainwright many years ago. Loved alaska; its beatuful up there.

Lots of pictures from me on facebook. If anyone wants,... go on facebook, and join "Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast/ Museum". Look at the member list, I am William Wood. Send me a friend invite! If your on the Lizzie b&b i will accept. Alaska was AWESOME!!!

...back to the thread,..so I guess the question of right or left handed murderer is still just as open a question as so many other things with the case!

Trial
Dr. Dolan
[on Andrew]
947+
Q. How do you account for the fact, if it be a fact, that there are no spots upon that small table that stood very near the front of the sofa and had books and other objects upon it?
A. In the first place, I don't think the assailant swung the instrument in that direction.

Q. You think the assailant swung the instrument from left to right, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And all those wounds can be fairly accounted for by blows from left to right?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is to say, it is a left handed blow?
A. In what sense left-handed: delivered by the left hand?

Q. That it strikes the body in a left-handed direction,---from left to right?
A. Yes, sir, to a certain extent. Those that are most markedly from left to right are those that would come down directly as the head lies there now, and give the direction of a left-handed blow.

Q. And those blows made quite as severe injuries as any?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the strongest left-handed blow, in your opinion, was the blow upon the eyebrow where that bone was chipped out?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In your opinion, would a strong and crushing blow not have been necessary to have made that?
A. No, sir.

Q. A light blow, in your opinion, could have done that?
A. Not a light blow; no, sir.

Q. A fairly strong blow?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it a one-handed or a two-handed blow, in your opinion?
A. I could not tell you.

Q. Have you any opinion about that?
A. I think one-handed could do it.
_ _ _ _ _ _

[I think he is asking if the blow was delivered from the left, not if it was delivered by a left hand. Remember, words had some different connotations back then.]

_ _ _ _ _ _

More:
[on Abbie]
960+
Q. How did the assailant face?
A. Faced the east wall.

Q. The east wall? And those blows you say had a general left and right direction?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the blow in the back a left to right blow?
A. Could not determine that.

Q. Let me ask you if you do not recall what you said yesterday, the assailant stood behind and faced her back?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that the highest part of that wound was on the left side?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does not that indicate to you that it must have been a left to right blow?
A. No, sir.

Q. How otherwise could it have been given?
A. Let me understand you. You mean left to right as regards the body of the deceased?

Q. The direction of the blow?
A. No, sir, I think it was a straight blow.

Q. What do you mean by a straight blow?
A. I mean the force was given directly. I did not quite understand,---do you mean the direction?

Q. I mean a blow struck from left to right. Was it not that kind?
A. No, sir, I think not. I think it was struck in a vertical direction, not left to right, but a straight blow.

Q. Was not one part of that wound higher than the other?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it not a slanting injury on the back? And did not one end stand higher than the other?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that the left end was higher than the right end?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. How would that blow be made by a person standing behind in any other way than striking from left to right?
A. The question,---the way you put it, a person behind,---you are granting in putting it that way that the person would be, would have to be exactly behind, that is, side to side. I don't say necessarily that would be so.

Q. How would you put the person to strike such a blow as that so that it may be delivered by the right hand?
A. If you will pardon me, I can very easily give the stenographer that blow.

Q. That is because he is underneath you?
A. But I could if he was standing up. I think it would be the same way. I don't think there is necessity to put it either way.

___________________

I thought there was more on *handed-ness* but I can't find it in Dr. Dolan other than these examples. There's probably a topic here somewhere covering this question: anyone know where it is and provide link?

Who's on first?

If ever a physical demonstration was needed in a courtroom, that was the time! About the only clear information in the testimony is that Dolan ascribed the spatter to the hatchet rather than the wound.

I don't know exactly what was being asked or described, but a right handed person swinging a hatchet will generally leave a mark like this \ A left handed person doing the same leaves this mark / Both marks are with respect to where the hatchet user is standing, as viewed from their perspective. This does not account for any contortions done by the user such as purposely standing at an odd angle or purposely swinging in a contorted fashion.

Kat @ Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:58 pm wrote:I thought there was more on *handed-ness* but I can't find it in Dr. Dolan other than these examples. There's probably a topic here somewhere covering this question: anyone know where it is and provide link?

I found a couple of links that may contain the information you're looking for:

Review of David Kent's, "Forty Whacks"
viewtopic.php?t=1316&start=0

Blood Evidence
viewtopic.php?t=1856&start=0

That one on Kent is good! Thanks!
How did you search, may I ask?

Diana reports there about the Drs. Draper & Cheever opinions in testimony.

Kat @ Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:10 pm wrote:That one on Kent is good! Thanks!
How did you search, may I ask?

You're welcome. Kat. All I did was typed the words, left-handed, in the search option at the top of this page.

If the blood spatter was primarily the result of swinging the hatchet, it may be that a left handed person would have projected more spatter out into the room, toward the fireplace. A right handed person, if standing partially within the doorway, might produce the spatter as it was found. This would make an interesting project, trying to replicate the blood spatter patterns in the case!

Another possibility is that if the blood spatter was entirely the result of hatchet swings, then the murderer would likely have gotten little or no blood on his/her clothing. It would all have been directed away from the murderer.

I don't know, Yooper. Watching that recreation axe attack on Tru Tv in the Wylie, Texas, killing sure showed a lot of blood! That was 40 wounds I think, but still...there was probably more blood at the Borden crime scene than we realize from the old black and white pictures.

When I've read descriptions of blood spatter in crime cases, the language is so scientific, it is devoid of emotion, like splashing water, not blood, and in describing drops and directionality, we don't envision the sheer amount. These descriptions seem impersonal. If one were there and saw it, in that Borden house, one might realize how very much more blood there was than we could imagine from reading about it.

btw: there a *spray-type* display of blood on the wallpaper (in an arc) and also spots on the picture, both above the sofa.

Andrews attack seems clearly from behind. I would venture the opinion that the attacker was not delivering blows in the crazed state of a conflict (he was sleeping, she was attacked from behind), rather much more like calculated assault of hatred. The fact that the murderer escaped completely shows either unimaginable luck or a high degree of self composure. If we assume the more plausible scenario of calculation, we can assume that the attacker didnt loose their nerve and make wild missed blows all over. Andrew's left face was hacked into. Would it not be logical that a right handed attacker standing behind would be cleaving into the right side of his head, or fully centered on the top of the head?

Most accounts i have seen at answering right/left handed have been from the time period of the murders. Are ther any modern forensic attempts at understanding the wounds upon the skulls?

I can find nothing in modern forensics which would shed much light on the blood spatter in the Borden case. That doesn't mean there is none, just that I can't find it, so don't be discouraged!

Remember, Andrew was lying on the sofa with the right side of his face against the cushion or arm of the sofa. The left side of his head was exposed in the uppermost position, more or less. There were very few misdirected blows, none in Andrew's case, and only two among Abby's wounds. This probably indicates the victims did not offer much resistance before they died. Any movement or struggle on the part of the victim would make the murderer's job much more difficult. It would be very difficult to hit an object the size of a human head squarely with a hatchet if it was moving, there would be many glancing blows.

You're right, Kat, color photography would have been helpful in identifying the blood spatter. The best we might do at this point is take a red magic marker to the wall! The descriptions also lack "color", they also tend to take on the scientific black and white. This is done with good reason, the blood spatter is a pattern indicating what likely took place during the crime. It has to be described unemotionally and objectively. The size, location, and pattern involved tell the story. Another consideration is the compression of a drop of blood onto a flat surface makes it seem like more blood that it actually was, at least visually. It involves taking the three dimensional volume of a sphere, 4/3 times Pi times the cube of the radius, and compressing it into a two dimensional area, Pi times the square of the radius. This effectively increases the visual size of the spot by 1.33 times an order of magnitude with respect to the radius. A droplet of blood the size of a pin head might appear the size of a pea after striking a flat, hard surface. If the droplet strikes a soft surface, such as fabric, there would probably be less visual expansion, but I don't know how much less. Hopefully this isn't too confusing, I'm trying to illustrate the difference between an objective "blood droplet size" and a subjective "big drops of blood all over the wall"!

dogeeseseegod, Abbie's attack was pretty much agreed upon as starting in a *standing-facing* position. That describes the frontal scalp wound with skin flap.

It's an interesting question as to a modern re-evaluation of the autopsy notes and wound descriptions.

The closest I can think of was Prof. Starrs comments in one of his books where he proposed that the skulls of Abbie and Andrew had been mis-identified. He wondered if they had been mixed up. That is not possible, tho, as any perusal of the autopsy notes would prove. So I doubt he took much time to evaluate the wound descriptions.

Another interesting discussion that covers some things we have been discussing. Kat is so knowledgeable!

Yes, she is! Kat was a very early member, and I wish some of our earlier members would come back and post!

All the same, when we later members started the threads 'All about Abby' and 'All about Andrew' it was specifically to collect what we had to trawl through many threads to gather, as well as new things we discovered about the two deaths.

I think it was great, for example, that Possum posted a diagram of the wounds on the back of Abby's head and debbie posted an illustration showing Dolan's blood spatter notations in the bedroom for the first time. These were especially useful, in my humble opinion, because for the first time we could see, with Possum and debbie's help, exactly what havoc was wrought and where.

For me, that made things very clear, in the guest room especially. Some of the earlier speculations of members here, (and I'm not just talking about this thread) were proved to be off the mark, (if you can say that about a hatchet attack!) as regards blood splatter. For instance some early members (without the benefit of the illustration) speculated about the first blows coming in another part of the guest room. This proved not to be so. In fact it can't be clearer that the initial attack took place in a specific and enclosed area (and ended there.)

Possum gave us the benefit of his experience in relation to the wounds on Abby's head, which was terrific. The order in which those wounds were inflicted of course remain speculative.

As far as Andrew was concerned, the killer was presented, in spite of Andrew's prone position (asleep) with another 'confined space' problem. Dolan and others in 1892 appeared to believe that the attack came from behind the couch and to the left, (the dining room doorframe) and later writers on this case seem to have agreed with him. It's not impossible, (my opinion only) that the killer may have used either hand (ambidextrous?) or both hands together for at least a few of the blows on Andrew's face.

Sorry for the rant (extremely long post!)

I'm not sure if right or left handedness means much in the crimes because axes/hatchets can be used in a lot of different ways. In general I think most of us would use a hatchet with one hand rather than both. To use such an instrument with two hands would have to do with length of handle and the need for great force to split wood. I am ambidextrous for activities like this but my left arm doesn't work too good due to a trauma a few years back. Now it's hard for me to even imagine what it would be like to swing a hatchet with my left hand. With my right hand I can see raising a hatchet kind up and across my body, a little higher than the shoulder and then coming down at an angle. Left to right like the testimony covers. Chopping meat scraps I don't apply much force. Chopping kindling I go up & down. God forbid, if I was killing someone I think it would be the left to right movement. With a restricted area I think I could do the job with either hand, if my left arm worked.

Curryong wrote:Yes, she is! Kat was a very early member, and I wish some of our earlier members would come back and post!

All the same, when we later members started the threads 'All about Abby' and 'All about Andrew' it was specifically to collect what we had to trawl through many threads to gather, as well as new things we discovered about the two deaths.

I think it was great, for example, that Possum posted a diagram of the wounds on the back of Abby's head and debbie posted an illustration showing Dolan's blood spatter notations in the bedroom for the first time. These were especially useful, in my humble opinion, because for the first time we could see, with Possum and debbie's help, exactly what havoc was wrought and where.

For me, that made things very clear, in the guest room especially. Some of the earlier speculations of members here, (and I'm not just talking about this thread) were proved to be off the mark, (if you can say that about a hatchet attack!) as regards blood splatter. For instance some early members (without the benefit of the illustration) speculated about the first blows coming in another part of the guest room. This proved not to be so. In fact it can't be clearer that the initial attack took place in a specific and enclosed area (and ended there.)

Possum gave us the benefit of his experience in relation to the wounds on Abby's head, which was terrific. The order in which those wounds were inflicted of course remain speculative.

As far as Andrew was concerned, the killer was presented, in spite of Andrew's prone position (asleep) with another 'confined space' problem. Dolan and others in 1892 appeared to believe that the attack came from behind the couch and to the left, (the dining room doorframe) and later writers on this case seem to have agreed with him. It's not impossible, (my opinion only) that the killer may have used either hand (ambidextrous?) or both hands together for at least a few of the blows on Andrew's face.

Sorry for the rant (extremely long post!)

Note that the * bottom of chair covered in splatter is not where the asterisk is located but over against the wall between dresser and bed.

Thanks for that, debbie.

Left-handedness/Right-handedness can generally be discovered by looking at the entrance patterns of the wounds, if you hold a hatchet in your right hand, the rotation of your hand is only to the Right (clockwise) but left handed rotation of the weapon is counter-clockwise (to the left) The entrance wounds would bevel in the direction of the left if the killer was left handed, but we see only right-handed wound tracts. Thanks for the kind words Curryong, I spent quite a bit of time on the outlining wounds diagram, and it kind of got lost in the flood of other posts in the forum...it's nice to know people still can use it.

The picture just came through on Debbie's post. Thanks. Never knew there was a chair right there. Even tighter area.

PossumPie wrote:Left-handedness/Right-handedness can generally be discovered by looking at the entrance patterns of the wounds, if you hold a hatchet in your right hand, the rotation of your hand is only to the Right (clockwise) but left handed rotation of the weapon is counter-clockwise (to the left) The entrance wounds would bevel in the direction of the left if the killer was left handed, but we see only right-handed wound tracts. Thanks for the kind words Curryong, I spent quite a bit of time on the outlining wounds diagram, and it kind of got lost in the flood of other posts in the forum...it's nice to know people still can use it.

I looked for yours, Possum, and would have reposted them but had a hard enough time finding my own. Would it be possible to upload to this forum, too, Possum?