Lizzie Borden Society Forum

It is known that before the murders, the whole family, including Lizzie, were sick. Does anyone have a clue what they were sick with? Food poisoning or something? I know it has been speculated that they were poisioned but that has been dismissed. Does anyone have an idea what the family was sick with?

It was a hot summer, and unpasturized milk was delivered to their home each morning.

Newspapers from that time had articles warning mothers about "spoiled milk" and that infants had died from it.

The severity of the illness is dependent on the amount of bacteria which had multiplied at the time of use.

It could have been a number of things, the milk or some of the food they were eating. Lizzie may have put something in the food that made everyone sick, perhaps as a means of creating "proof" that someone was after the family. It's hard to tell whether it was rotten food or a rotten daughter.

-1bigsteve (o:

as i've noted before, from a criminal profiling standpoint the "family sickness" is another step in a fairly clear pattern of increasing violence, violation, and victimization in the Borden household.

in my mind, there is no doubt that the sudden "illness" of some family members was anything but innocent or accidental. of course, i can't say for certain just what was injested, rotton food or some type of poison (personally, i'm inclined towards the latter).

It could also be the power of suggestion (spoiled milk stories were in local papers daily at this time) coupled with dehydration from the heat, humidity, and the amount of clothing they wore. You can get lethargy, vomiting, and diarrhea very easily from dehydration.

Good point, Cynthia. Heat can make a person sick. It may have been just the effects of the heat and not the food. Does anyone know the temp on the day they were sick? I think the temp was lower on the day of the killings.

-1bigsteve (o:

Anything above mid-70s with high humidity will make you crazy with perspiration. Supposedly when you sweat, the perspiration is supposed to evaporate off you and cool you down. With high hunidity, that doesn't happen.

We've been grateful it's been raining alot lately to reduce the humidity and it's not really that hot temperature-wise.

I do believe it was cooler than it had been previously, but about 10 days prior to the murder the newspapers were running articles about people dying from the heat in the cities, because it was over 100 degrees.

The Feast of the Blessed Sacrament is always the 1st weekend in August. For 5 years, I worked on the old Centre Street Festival in New Bedford, which was the 2nd weekend in August. This timeframe always used to be the hottest part of the summer. Then it would cool down at the end of the 3rd weeks and we would start to worry that the cooler weather would draw hurricanes up the coast.

Lately the weather is not as predictable here,

another duplicate. sorry...I keep getting kicked back a screen when I try to enter a message. I think it's the new security program from my internet provider that's doing it.

surely abby had felt the effects of heat, dehydration, and even food poisoning before? and yet something made her question whether the family had been purposefully, maliciously poisoned. she was afraid enough to go and report the suspicion to dr bowen and to want him to examine her and andrew.

in my experience, sane people do not often fear for their lives/personal safety for no reason. i don't think abby feared for the well being of herself and her husband from a case of spoiled meat, or the effects of a hot summer's day.

under normal circumstances, heat or rotton food or dehydration could certainly explain away the symptoms the borden household was experiencing those august days...but these were far from normal circustances. abby's fear "informs" us that she had reason to suspect something much more sinister was going on. her fear reaches out to us to this day and tells us a good deal about the state of things in her world that august. she feared for her safety, and i suspect with good reason.

my point is that, true, any number of things could have caused a sudden sickness in a household of the time - but when one takes this particular instance of illness in its entire context, the odds that the cause was one of these "innocent" culprits is GREATLY lessened.

i remained convinced that the bordens' sickness was INTENTIONAL.

I think, too, it might have been the food. Didin't they have leftover mutton for breakfest? Coupled with the bad milk and heat, I think that might have made anyone sick.

Good point, Squthmann, didn't she also mention that Lizzie too had been sick? If she thought it was Lizzie behind the poisoning, would she have done that?

It would appear from testimony by Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell that Abby attributes the 'poisoning' to accidental spoiling of baker's cream cakes and it's Lizzie, herself, who entertains the idea of someone deliberately poisoning the milk.

diana @ Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:34 am wrote:It would appear from testimony by Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell that Abby attributes the 'poisoning' to accidental spoiling of baker's cream cakes and it's Lizzie, herself, who entertains the idea of someone deliberately poisoning the milk.

I get the feeling that Lizzie was planting ideas in the minds of those around her to build a case for what was to come. Lizzie's, "father has an enemy," and "someone's poisoning the milk" and her other comments were, I feel, intended to show a successive line of events that would lead to the killings. She was trying to show a history of threats against her family so when the killings took place Lizzie could say, "See, someone was after my family." I feel Abby may have been getting wise to Lizzie, maybe a "sixth sense" type of thing. I don't know. I get the feeling that Lizzie was up to her elbows in dirty dealings.

-1bigsteve (o:

diana @ Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:34 pm wrote:It would appear from testimony by Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell that Abby attributes the 'poisoning' to accidental spoiling of baker's cream cakes and it's Lizzie, herself, who entertains the idea of someone deliberately poisoning the milk.

well during her trial testimony, alice testified that lizzie had told her that abby went to dr bowen, afraid that they had been "poisoned," and if we can believe the report of how bowen reacted to her alarm, i think it's clear he took abby to mean she was afraid they had been literally poisoned, not just a case of spoilt food or tainted milk:

Alice's testimony:

... She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her -- she told him she was afraid they were poisoned -- and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison.

Yes, Abby did go to Bowen and say she was afraid they'd been poisoned -- but I feel her words to him to indicate she thought it was an accidental agent -- not a deliberate one.

" . . . Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. . . . I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit." (Bowen, Inquest)

Abby also apparently told John Morse and Phebe Bowen that Lizzie was sick on Wednesday.

So I don't think that, given what we're told she said to various people, Abby thought she was being deliberately poisoned. That's just my opinion, of course.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what is meant by the report of Bowen reacting to Abby's alarm?

It sounds like she means that if Dr. Bowen replied there wasn't any poison, he was responding to what Abbie said to him, which might have been that she thought there had been poison.

I'm only interpreting what was posted- it is out of context and has missing parts- maybe if we saw the whole piece of testimony?

But otherwise, I'm a purist on this one- along with you Diana.

Why don't we ever look at the cook as poisoner?
Do you know soap on the dishes will make anyone sick?

I just looked up "rat poison" for the heck of it to see if there was something that was used in the past besides strychnine or arsenic, and it mentioned Thallium.

"The odorless and tasteless thallium sulfate was widely used in the past as a rat poison and ant killer. In the United States and many other countries this use is no longer allowed due to safety concerns. "

If this was available during Lizzie's time, it would have been a good one to use because, as it mentions, it was colorless and tasteless and easily obtainable. Just a thought.

In my opinion, there would be ample reason for Dr. Bowen to minimize any "fear" Abby may have had of deliberate poisoning, given subsequent events. Suppose for a moment that Abby had gone to Bowen and said something about a fear that someone might be deliberately trying to kill her, and that she thought they had poisoned her food. If Bowen thought the fear to be irrational and tried to minimize the complaint to simple food poisoning, only to find the next day that Abby was clearly justified in fearing for her life, Bowen might have feared for his own reputation. He might be inclined to minimize the "fear" aspect of Abby's visit.

Another thought, from Alice's testimony that Dr. Bowen "laughed" about the complaint, what did he laugh at? Why would Alice Russell use those terms if it had not been represented to her in those terms? It seems a strange embellishment to say the least. Was Dr. Bowen in the habit of laughing at a patient's distress? Did Dr. Bowen take lightly the possibility of a local baker's wares being contaminated? Or had Dr. Bowen heard what he considered to be a complete absurdity?

I totally agree with that. He was probably acting distracted and nervous after the murders because he realized she may have been right to be scared.

Yooper @ Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:49 am wrote:Another thought, from Alice's testimony that Dr. Bowen "laughed" about the complaint, what did he laugh at? Why would Alice Russell use those terms if it had not been represented to her in those terms? It seems a strange embellishment to say the least. Was Dr. Bowen in the habit of laughing at a patient's distress? Did Dr. Bowen take lightly the possibility of a local baker's wares being contaminated? Or had Dr. Bowen heard what he considered to be a complete absurdity?

Thank you, Yooper. That's exactly what I was getting at regarding Dr Bowen's reaction to Abby's alarm and fear.

For him to have chuckled at her and told her they had not been poisoned seems to me that he found Abby's alarm and distress a little humorous - as in a preposterous idea - which further makes me think Abby wasn't saying to him "I think we've been poisoned" as in food poisoning, but as in a deliberate and criminal act, which is why she would have ben alarmed and he in turn would have gently laughed off as an overeaction. And that's how I think the encounter probably went.

And yes, Dr Bowen may not have wanted to recall that laugh and casual dismissal of Abby's fears later during his testimonies for obvious reasons - I mean, here was a woman who came to him - a respected doctor, neighbor, and family acquiantance - afraid that her family had been deliberately poisoned and how does he react? He laughs at her? And then it turns out the following day the husband and wife of the household turn up murdered? By choosing to downplay Abby's visit to him, I would think he's helping to preserve his reputation and public persona...and maybe it also helps him to wash away any feelings of guilt, or "what if"s (what if he had taken her more seriously that day?).

One other point which I believe was brought up at the time, by Alice Russell to Lizzie according to her testimony, was that if a local baker's wares had been contaminated or spoiled at the time, wouldn't one think there would be a number of others who would have reported getting sick too? I would add especially after the murders and the details of the Bordens' "sickness" came out later, wouldn't people have come forward if they had experienced the same?

He might just have been trying to calm her down. He probably knew no one would be able to buy poison. And Abby didn't say food poisoning. Maybe if she had said that, he wouln't have been laughing.

He might just have been trying to calm her down. He probably knew no one would be able to buy poison. And Abby didn't say food poisoning. Maybe if she had said that, he wouln't have been laughing.

Kat @ Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:06 am wrote:I'm only interpreting what was posted- it is out of context and has missing parts- maybe if we saw the whole piece of testimony?

--partial quote of me. (see above)

Alice at trial:
Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation?
A. I don't think of anything.

Q. Anything about doing anything to any member of the household; not herself, but anyone else; anything to her father. She was afraid that someone would do something.
A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes---I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people." And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going; and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.' She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her---she told him she was afraid they were poisoned ---and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison. And she came back, and Dr. Bowen came over." And she said, "I am so ashamed, the way father treated Dr. Bowen. I was so mortified." And she said after he had gone Mrs. Borden said she thought it was too bad for him to treat Dr. Bowen so, and he said he didn't want him coming over there that way.

Q. Now have you stated substantially all you remember about that

Page 380 / i402

talk the night before?
A. Yes, All that I can remember.

This is Alice testifying to What She Says Lizzie Told Her Wednesday Night. = hearsay based on memory.
It is Dr. Bowen speaking to Abbie in his home, being retold to Alice by Lizzie who wasn't there, and Alice telling us.

Kat @ Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:49 pm wrote:

This is Alice testifying to What She Says Lizzie Told Her Wednesday Night. = hearsay based on memory.
It is Dr. Bowen speaking to Abbie in his home, being retold to Alice by Lizzie who wasn't there, and Alice telling us.

You are right, it is hearsay and based on what Lizzie related to Alice. But the bit about Bowen's laugh seems to me an odd detail to fabricate...in fact, such a detail almost makes the recollection and the statement ring more truly.

In police work, it's often the more descriptive and detailed statements that turn out to be the least deceptive statements. I'd say that this detail helps to strengthen the position that the statement was pretty accurate - at least as far as the way Lizzie told it. And for Lizzie to have invented such a detail doesn't really make sense to me.

But you're quite correct in that we're getting a third-hand account here of what may or may not have occurred at Bowen's. It's a good point to keep in mind. However, my belief that the Bordens' "poisoning" was a deliberate and malicious act doesn't hinge on this single piece of testimony alone.

You are such a good writer that you could probably take any position and argue it to everyone's satisfaction!
You are lucky in that way.
I'm keeping up, is all.

Kat @ Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:38 am wrote:You are such a good writer that you could probably take any position and argue it to everyone's satisfaction!
You are lucky in that way.
I'm keeping up, is all.

That's exactly how I see you! The excellent documentation and research you include in your posts is truly something I admire and aspire to. You keep me honest! I thank you for it!

From the Witness Statements, Doherty, page 4:

11.35 At this hour I, with Frank Wixon, entered the Borden house 92 Second street. Dr. Bowen
met me at the kitchen door, and said “I am glad to see you.” I inquired “what is the trouble?” He said
“Mr. Borden is dead.” I went into the next room, and there found the remains on a sofa covered with a
sheet. In low tones the Doctor told me he was satisfied there was something wrong, for they were all sick the day before. He followed this by saying “to make matters worse, Mrs. Borden is lying dead up
stairs. I suppose she saw the killing of her husband, and run up stairs, and died with fright.”

What correlation was Dr. Bowen making between summer complaint and death? Why would food poisoning convince him that something was wrong when he found Andrew and Abby? He specifically mentioned that "something was wrong". If Abby had gone to him with a simple complaint of food poisoning which he diagnosed as such and recommended treatment, why would that logically lead to a hatchet murder? Or did Abby complain of something other than simple food poisoning?

Yooper @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:45 pm wrote: What correlation was Dr. Bowen making between summer complaint and death? Why would food poisoning convince him that something was wrong when he found Andrew and Abby? He specifically mentioned that "something was wrong". If Abby had gone to him with a simple complaint of food poisoning which he diagnosed as such and recommended treatment, why would that logically lead to a hatchet murder? Or did Abby complain of something other than simple food poisoning?

excellent work, yooper. yet another indication that what abby said to bowen was likely in the spirit of a woman fearful for her personal safety. i truly believe that is what really happened.

It sounds to me like Abby talked with Dr. Bowen about something other than food poisoning. I think she told the Dr. that she feared something may happen and I've always felt that the Dr. knew more about the murders than what he let on about. I don't think he was in on the killings but I feel he knew some secrets and kept his mouth shut to protect the family name.

-1bigsteve (o:

It's also interesting that even after Alice had been there a while with Lizzie, she said she did not know it was murder until Morse came. Even after all she said she heard from Lizzie Wednesday night.
Notice the way she uses the word poison in its context- it's not associated with murder:

Inquest
148
Alice Russell
Q. Did she tell you anything about where to look for her?
A. No Sir. Then I remember of Maggie and Mrs. Churchill starting, and Maggie says “O, I cant go through that room”. Dr. Bowen says “get me a sheet, and I will cover Mr. Borden over”. They started and went after that. Then when they came down I remember Mrs. Churchill saying “O, Mrs. Borden” this way. Whatever she said or did gave me that impression that she had gone too. I did not then know either of them were murdered. I supposed it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.
Q. When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A. I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I dont know how long, when her Uncle came in.
Q. That is Morse?
A. Yes Sir. And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, then it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder. That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.
Q. You did not see Morse until he got into the room where Lizzie was?
A. No. I had not seen Mr. Morse for years before.
Q. That room where you were with Lizzie, was what room?
A. The dining room. The first room I was in was the kitchen.

Yooper @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:45 pm wrote:From the Witness Statements, Doherty, page 4:

11.35 At this hour I, with Frank Wixon, entered the Borden house 92 Second street. Dr. Bowen
met me at the kitchen door, and said “I am glad to see you.” I inquired “what is the trouble?” He said
“Mr. Borden is dead.” I went into the next room, and there found the remains on a sofa covered with a
sheet. In low tones the Doctor told me he was satisfied there was something wrong, for they were all sick the day before. He followed this by saying “to make matters worse, Mrs. Borden is lying dead up
stairs. I suppose she saw the killing of her husband, and run up stairs, and died with fright.”

What correlation was Dr. Bowen making between summer complaint and death? Why would food poisoning convince him that something was wrong when he found Andrew and Abby? He specifically mentioned that "something was wrong". If Abby had gone to him with a simple complaint of food poisoning which he diagnosed as such and recommended treatment, why would that logically lead to a hatchet murder? Or did Abby complain of something other than simple food poisoning?

I think Abby was old enough to know the difference between "summer sickness" and poisoning. I mean, she lived long enough to know what the symptons were to day to day illnesses. I am sure they all had their share of illnesses, but this one seemed deliberate and different. Perhaps, she sensed a need of urgency and Dr. Bowen did not?

Kat @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:42 pm wrote:It's also interesting that even after Alice had been there a while with Lizzie, she said she did not know it was murder until Morse came. Even after all she said she heard from Lizzie Wednesday night.
Notice the way she uses the word poison in its context- it's not associated with murder:

Inquest
148
Alice Russell
Q. Did she tell you anything about where to look for her?
A. No Sir. Then I remember of Maggie and Mrs. Churchill starting, and Maggie says “O, I cant go through that room”. Dr. Bowen says “get me a sheet, and I will cover Mr. Borden over”. They started and went after that. Then when they came down I remember Mrs. Churchill saying “O, Mrs. Borden” this way. Whatever she said or did gave me that impression that she had gone too. I did not then know either of them were murdered. I supposed it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.
Q. When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A. I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I dont know how long, when her Uncle came in.
Q. That is Morse?
A. Yes Sir. And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, then it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder. That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.
Q. You did not see Morse until he got into the room where Lizzie was?
A. No. I had not seen Mr. Morse for years before.
Q. That room where you were with Lizzie, was what room?
A. The dining room. The first room I was in was the kitchen.

Good job at finding and posting this piece of Alice's testimony, Kat. Alice's telling does seem to me a bit strange, as I agree she appears to be saying that she thought Mr and Mrs Borden were dead due to some type of poisoning rather than "cold blooded murder."

But I really have a hard time believing that Alice did not know, had not heard something which would have informed her that Andrew had been violently killed? It seems everyone else on scene knew that Andrew was lying there dead in the sitting room in a ghastly state, the victim of a vicious attack. How could she NOT know?

And after the conversation with Lizzie the night before, how could her only initial thought have been that if Andrew and Abby were dead because of poison, it was a innocent yet tragic accident and not an intentional, murdeous act by someone out to get them? What WAS she thinking?

posted twice for some reason...deleted

Maybe she was thinking like Bowen was thinking. He thought Abbie died of fright.* Both of these people, we believe, were exposed previously to the idea of poisoned food, and there they are, still not thinking murder- at least of Abbie. Bowen knows after seeing Andrew of course, that he had been killed.

To explain why Alice may not have known about cold-blooded murder-I guess the menfolk kept hushed voices and did not discuss the gore in front of the ladies?


*This is according to Doherty in The Witness Statements. Bowen is asked at the trial if he ever said that but Bowen said he thought she had fainted from fright but when he checked her and found she was dead, he reevaluated that stance...so to speak.