Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Forgive me if I'm bring up questions that have been asked to death but I would be interested in members opinions on Morse's behavior after the murder.

It seems clear he was out of the house at the times of the killings but what was going on in his mind when he returned? He clearly must have seem the huge crowd outside and the guard at the door. To stop and eat pears off the backyard tree seems downright strange. Obviously he didn't want to go inside. It is possible that he had heard of the events downtown before he got there and it was just a matter of avoiding the awful scene. Hard to say how any of us would react to such an event.

Don't you think his alibi is a bit too tight? I mean he recalls details like someone wanting to prove where he was at a particular time. Curious to say the least.

If he did hear about the murders downtown-- then why the paranoia?

Andrew was JVM's friend and L&E were all that he had left of his sister. Why didn't he rush right over there to see what had happened and to make sure L wa all right? (assuming he "heard rumors" downtown)

I like topics being brought up again. It can make me look at something in another way, or stuff I forgot I get reminded of.

Personally, I believe Morse was in on it. I think he arranged for the butcher, Davis, to do it. And I think the 'girls' were in full knowledge of it.

Yes, Morse's alibi was ridiculous. He did everything but carve his initials in the seat of the vehicle he rode home in - with the date.

His waiting in the yard was fishy. And his trying to tell a reporter that the cellar door outside was not locked, then lying about it later saying he never said that, is very interesting. His sleeping in the guest room that night is incredible.

Yes, he was a friend of Andrew's - that is the part that doesn't seem to fit. But he was not a blood relative. The 'girls' were his departed sister's flesh and blood, and Andrew re-married. If Andrew shared any details about an upcoming will with Morse, perhaps Morse could not stand Andrew's wealth going to Abby - whom he must have not felt the same about as Sarah, even if Morse and Abby got along basically. Abby did grumble about Morse showing up. She wasn't a close bud of his. Morse may have been upset that Sarah's girls would not get what was rightfully theirs.

But other than that, how did Morse benefit?

Morse getting a phone call at the Wybosset home he was visiting was surprisingly kind of overlooked by the police. And Dr. Bowen showing up at that same house as Morse was leaving???

The guy had some sort of fetish about the post office. Sending a card - was it that same day? And what did he do - before he sent the card he went to a store to buy a stamp for it?? Something like that. It's no wonder he was chased down by that mob.

Technically, we don't have access to the full alibi of Morse other than what authors wrote or what was in the newspapers. If one looks at his testimony we don't see the detail that defense attorney's say he gave. In the papers it is only that he saw 6 priests on the streetcar and that was confirmed because everyone noticed the 6 priests.
The rest is embellishment or exaggeration, in my opinion.

The phone call is still in doubt as well. Harry & I have tried to prove or disprove if Mr. Emery had a phone, and couldn't. He was working at the soap factory practically across the street where he lived and we can't reason why he would have a phone.

Morse and the cellar door is interesting in that he doesn't say he never said that it was not open, just that he thought it was open, thought he told someone, but couldn't be sure who he told.
I checked the Witness Statements and the Inquest and up until the Prelim we haven't heard about Morse's thoughts on the cellar door. It probably came out while he was being questioned informally as to what his testimony would include.


Preliminary Hearing
Morse
256
Q. Did you notice at all the cellar door, whether it was open or shut?
A. I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it was open; I wont be sure, but I think it was.
....
264
Q. How soon was it, you saw that cellar door, as you think, open?
A. That was when I first came, I think when I went right after the pears.

Q. Are you sure the cellar door was open then?
A. I think it was; I am not sure.

Q. Did you shut it up?
A. No sir.

Q. Did you do anything to it?
A. No sir.

Q. Supposing a great many people say it was found shut, would you

Page 265

undertake to contradict them?
A. No sir, I would not.

Q. Was not that door usually kept shut and locked?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you have any special remembrance of its being open that day?
A. I think when I came around there, I think I saw that door open.

Q. Did you mention that fact to anybody?
A. I do not know as I have.

Q. Did you ever mention it to any police officer?
A. I cannot say.

Q. Have you ever mentioned (it) to anybody before now?
A. I think I have mentioned it.

Q. To who?
A. I dont know as I could tell you.

Q. I wish you would try and think.
A. I dont think I could tell you.

Q. I mean outside of the counsel for Lizzie Borden. In the course of this investigation, before Lizzie Borden was arrested, will you tell me any officers to whom you ever mentioned the fact that you found that cellar door open?
A. I do not think I could.

Q. You regarded it as of importance enough to talk about did not you?
A. I did not think much of anything about it.

Q. You knew an active inquiry was being prosecuted as to how the murderer got in or out?
A. Yes sir, I supposed so.

Q. Yet you never mentioned that fact?
A. No sir, I may have spoken of it; I think I did.

Q. To a police officer?
A. I think not.

Q. Or anybody connected with the police department?
A. I guess not.

Q. Or to me?
A. No sir.

Q. On the contrary, have not you told me that it was shut?
A. No sir.

--[That question itself proves nothing. The answer is what counts]

266
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Allow me to recall to you; didn’t you tell Mr. Charles J. Holmes the first time he came to the house there that you thought this cellar door was open?

(Mr. Knowlton.) I object to the question. What consequence is it whether he told Mr. Holmes or not?

(After a discussion the objection was withdrawn.)

Q. Do you recollect whether the first time Mr. Charles Holmes came there, you told him you thought the cellar door was open?
A. I could not say.

Q. You do not recollect? Do you remember having talked with Mr. Holmes about the matter at all?
A. Yes I think I have talked with him.

Q. This gentleman here?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Did he ask you about various things that you saw?
A. We have had conversation.

Q. When was that talk, do you know?
A. I could not tell.

Q. Was not Mr. Holmes up there Thursday night with his wife?
A. I think he was there; I do not think I saw him Thursday night.

Q. Do you remember when he was up there again?
A. I do not. I saw him some night, I cant tell what night it was.

Q. Do not you remember Mr. Holmes asking you to take him out around the house and show him, and asking about the cellar door, and your pointing it out to him, and taking him out there, and showing him where the cellar door was?
A. I do not recollect anything about it.

--
I would like to ask anyone where to find the *fact* that Morse stayed in the murder room Thursday night? I've been wondering about this, and help is appreciated.

It's also hard to place Dr. Bowen at the Emerys at that time (What? 11:20?)- with the timeline, can it be done?

Good question about whether or not Morse actually stayed in the murder room the night of the 4th. I know I have read it somewhere but I know that this doesn't make it "fact", especially in this case.

Also, if Morse was somehow involved due to his loyalty to the daughters of his late sister he seems woefully absent in the years after the crime.

When I think about the money as motive for Morse to help plan to kill the Bordens, I can't see it. Yes what did he gain? Exactly!
Not only that, but what is the worth of 2 lives and a death sentence vs. 2 1/3 portions of the wealth? If Andrew died naturally and Abby and the girls inherited, it could very well have been a 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 split. That's still plenty of money for everyone, isn't it?

If the family could tolerate each other a while longer, it could have been this way...

I agree that Morse had little or no motive and, in fact, may very well have a had a possible gain if Andrew had lived to write a will. He may very well have left a little something to his longtime friend.

On the other hand, Lizzie's motive may very well have been greed but it may have been enhanced by her hatred for Abby. She may have viewed her as an intrusion into their lives.

Remember the words from the Cunningham poem carved into her mantle at Maplecroft. The lyrics are chilling when viewed in retrospect. Depending on how you interpret them they look like they show a festering hatred for the "usurper."

Welcome to the forum RonRico!

Uncle John returned from Swansea to Second Street about 8:30 on the night of August 3rd. He, Andrew and Abby chatted in the sitting room with Abby retiring a little early leaving Andrew and Uncle John.

To the best of my recollection nobody ever questioned Morse about what they talked about that evening. Lizzie came home after nine and went upstairs. It would seem to me that she could have heard any discussion going on in the sitting room as the door to the foyer from the sitting room was open.

I should think Morse would have been questioned on that conversation heavily as anything Andrew said those last hours of his life may have been important. Not that Morse necessarily would have told the truth.

Could this be where the impression comes from that Morse slept in the death/guest chamber the night of the tragedy? Morse at the inquest, pg. 100:

Q. You slept in the same room where this woman was found dead the next day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the morning, what time did you arise?
A. I think I got up about six o’clock.

I will keep looking if others will...

The authors strike again! I don't believe there is any evidence that Morse slept in the guest bedroom the night after the murders. I did locate the following from The Cases That Haunt Us, page 90:

" ... Finally, the police left, cordoning off the house to keep away the curious, who had assembled en masse. Bridget left to stay with Dr. Bowen's maid while Emma and Lizzie remained in the house. Uncle John slept in the guest room where Abby had been killed, and Alice Russell slept in the Bordens' bedroom."

However, Fleet's testimony, describing his search in the attic, in the Preliminary definitely contradicts this. Page 360:

"... We went into each one as she unlocked them, and turned over things, and put them back in their proper places, and found nothing there that we wanted. We searched Bridget's bed, and searched also a bed where John Morse had slept since, and I think had before.
Q. That is in the attic?
A. That was in the attic. That is all I can state just now."

I think I'll go with Fleet.

Also was not the bed in the guest bedroom pulled apart so that at least one photo of Abby could be taken? That bed was way too big to be just pushed aside in a corner.

Although I don't recall off-hand the exact date the bloody carpet section was cut and removed but am almost certain it wasn't on the 4th. Even Morse may have been turned off by that.

Thanks Har.
I see you mean they took that bed apart and probably might not have put it back together again so soon?
I hadn't thought of that.
I will look for the carpet cutting.

Morse claims in an interview a few years after the murders that he went to a fortune teller the night before the crimes and she refused to tell him anything saying "You don't want to know!"

I find this incredible. First, it seems too Hollywood and second I can't imagine him visiting a fortune teller! But I can't understand him having any reason to make up either.

Hmm.......

I have read recently a news item about Morse consulting a psychic and he claimed the whole story was false. It's strange you brought that up just now.
I think that the one I read is in Charlie Crowell's collection?

Here is what I found out about the carpet.
Dr. Dolan was asked if the carpet in the guest room was a Brussels and he doesn't say it is. He says "I could not say that." (Prelim, 191). He thinks the hall and stair carpet is Brussels. (Prelim. 113)
He says the carpet under the sofa in the sitting room is not "wool" and is "Brussels." (Prelim. 192) Then he is *quoted* back to himself as saying the guest room carpet was Brussels, which he did not say in the Prelim. and it's included in the question. It's confusing because it sounds like the questions are getting at the difference in the way the blood looked had to do with the kind of carpet, but since the blood looked very different to Dolan in each crime scene, this carpet question doesn't matter- it negates itself- because the questions imply both carpets are Brussels.
Anyway, Dolan flat out says the carpet had nothing to do with how the blood looked.

Regardless, Dolan does not know when he got the carpet pieces. He did not remove them himself (T863) but he personally took them away (T 877).

He claims the one from the guest room is "dirtier than it was."
Q. What is that?
A. That is the piece that was under Mrs. Borden's body.

Q. Does it present the appearance now as when you first saw it?
A. Of course it is older and all dried up now and dirtier than it was.
(T863)

That piece may be the one which was buried.
In the Witness Statements, pg. 42, on August 5th a "large piece of Brussels carpet" was buried. In "the middle of the next week" the bloody things were dug up from the yard and the carpet was removed (also "pieces of clothing") and the rest re-buried. (W.S. 42).

So, it's sounds possible that the one piece of carpet from the guest room was buried Friday (it might become "dirtier" if it first was buried), and the piece taken from under the sofa may have been taken later in the week with the dug up piece. I only surmise this because there were 2 pieces in evidence and only one listed as buried. Also the funeral was held in the sitting room, so maybe they put off cutting up a piece of carpet which essentially was under the sofa- unless the sofa was removed before the funeral...but now it's too confusing.

Here is the picture taken of the guest room crime scene with the carpet removed. This was donated to our collection by our William. (Thank you William!)

please click on the picture to make it bigger: