"Matrix Reloaded": The Architect's comments summarized

I really enjoyed "The Matrix Reloaded." It was very interesting seeing Neo
actually being The One. However, I didn't quite get what the Architect was
telling Neo at the end of the film about the Matrix, Zion, and The Ones. Can
some kind-hearted and more observant person summarize (or even better,
detail) what the Architect told Neo? I'd really like to understand this. My
thanks.
--
J44XM (#seventy8.net)
"Can you see that I am serious? Out of my way, all of you. This is no
place for loafers! Join me or die! Can you do any less?" -- Mr. Sparkle

At least, this is what I think he's saying. The dialogue throughout the
whole film was really vague, even moreso than the first one. Whereas the
first film seemed to rely on allusions to stories such as "Alice in
Wonderland", Buddhism/Hinduism (the concept of Maya or Illusion),
Christianity (the whole messianic plot, though you could also interpret it
as a Buddha plot), or Plato (Cave of Allegory), the second film didn't seem
to have this "rootedness" that viewers could graps onto. At most, I saw
flashes of Frank Herbert's second Dune book. I liked the first movie
better, the second leaves me scratching my head a bit.

Now that I think of it, the plot is seeming to working towards alot of the
ideas in Plato's Republic with the Cave allegory (especially the latter
parts, where Plato talks about the necessity of reigning in the
"enlightened" for the good of society).

"J44XM" <j44xm#seventy8.net> wrote in message
news:Xns937D269...@216.168.3.44...

It was very strange. I only understood part of it. I may see it again.
Apparently, Neo and the freeing of people from the matrix are all part
of
the way the matrix maintains control over the humans. The matrix only
works if people choose to stay in it. So people can choose to leave the
matrix
and live in the real world. The Oracle (a sentient computer program in a
matrix.
Not a human at all) uses Morpheus, Neo and the others to give people
that choice.
It's all about choices.

My comments at the bottom....

Handsome B Wonderful <H...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3EC4C7...@mail.com...

<snip>

Good explaination. I'm still fuzzy on how it all works. Remember when the
Architect
says that they are willing to live an a reduced scale if Neo chooses to not
reload the
Matrix? What does this mean? It seems like they are going to destroy Zion
either way?
Thoughts?

-William

From the first movie, we know the first Matrix failed because people
couldn't handle it. We now know that this is because humans need to
either have free will (choice), or at least *think* they do. So, people
go nutso, and The Architect is all pissed off that he wasted all that
time building his Matrix.

He decides for the second Matrix, and this time lets humans think they
have a choice (but they really don't). To help him understand how
humans think, he creates The Oracle, who may or may not be virtual --
she may or may not be based on a real human*. Anywho, she is supposed
to kind of interact with humans (including unplugged ones to get a
better idea of how people think).

Now, the whole people-think-they-have-choice but really they don't, is a
bad thing. This is a "fundamental flaw" in the Matrix. The problem
grows, and so The Architect has to fix his code. For some reason
(convienence?), he himself cannot do it. He must create a program that
has "administrative" or "root" privlidges -- i.e. he can not only "see"
the code, but change it. So boom, he creates Neo. Neo does what he's
supposed to do -- breaks out of the Matrix, and then out of the Matrix's
own parameters. Since he can now change the code, Colonel Sanders wants
him to go tweak the system, do a reboot, and then he'll see if the
Matrix is still messed up.

Here's some quick comments/questions:

- The purpose of the Keymaker was just to serve as a backdoor, and to
allow the Architect's programs (Oracle, Neo, lord knows who else) to
move easily through the Matrix. That's probably it....

- Neo is the 6th Neo, so it does make since Zion was destroyed 6 times,
right? Neo was not in the first Matrix, and during the big speech,
Zion had not yet been destoyed. So, I guess the 1st Neo was around
after Matrix 1.0, so Zion was destroyed once... yeah. OK. Nevermind.

- If you destroy a city... the *last human* city... 6 times. People
would remember. This part has nothing to do with reality or the
Matrix. If machines trounced your city 6 times, you'd write that shit
down and pass it on to your kin. During Morpheus' "we are still here"
speech, people seemed to forget that, you know, they've been nearly
beaten before. Plus, the commander said this was the largest attack
Zion's ever seen, which is probably true, but he should've mentioned
they've faced the whole dig-and-destroy attack 6 times before...

-- Rick

I forgot to address my asterik -- I believe the Oracle is an unplugged
human, not virtual. My only basis for this is because the most
dangerous program itself -- Neo -- the one that the Architect would want
under a very tight leash, wasn't made to be purely virtual. Maybe due
to the nature of his job, Neo *had* to be based off a human. Certainly
if the Architect could've made Neo without using a human (with all their
pesky, choice-driven minds), he would've. Less mess, and less likely to
break (like he did at the end of the 2nd movie).

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting
for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you
will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your
first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is
also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced
equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to
eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While
it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus
not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What
others? How many? Answer me!'*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from
the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which
case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's
systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You
can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do
anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it
was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now
as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I
redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying
grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I
have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required
a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.
Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program,
initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I
am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously
fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its
every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull****!*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But,
rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have
become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects
room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source,
allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the
prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23
individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected
to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately
result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.
However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of
people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of
your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the
monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the
cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the
fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both
beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the
source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the
matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal
the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason.
An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth:
she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest
weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

I think "magnulus"'s explanation is pretty accurate. ( atleast his
description of the Architect scene matches my understanding of it.)

But I'd also like to add the following:

The overall tone of the movie was about causality (free will vs.
determinism). Alot of the dialogue about "choices" was what I call
"yarn ball logic". Its very convoluted (sp?) and tied in knots (hard
to follow)(makes for endless philosophical debate--which is why the
Matrix movies are so good.)

For example. When Neo is talking to the Architect. The Architect tells
Neo (the same way the Oracle did) that he already knows what choice
Neo will make. Hurts my brain just thinking about it. If Neo is "the
One" and he has broken free of the Matrix's control--then how can
anyone know what he will do? The Architect did comment that Neo's
thought processes were unique from any of the previous "anomoly's"
(sp?) If fate is in control and its destined that Neo would choose to
save Trinity instead of Zion, how much of a mind job is that for Neo.
If he's the "One" shouldn't he be in control of his own choices?

I thought the movie did a good job of setting us up for the final
chapter. The conversation Neo had with the Counselor in Zion was
interesting in that Neo concluded that man and machines were
interdependent and suggested that they could live in harmony/balance.
Getting there will be the battle.

Thats all for now, lest I keep rambling...
-jmnugent

"magnulus" <magn...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<rB2xa.44178$g21....@fe08.atl2.webusenet.com>...

Oh shit.. they could still be in the Matrix? .. now i'm totally mindfucked!

So is the idea that Neo was 'made' to be the One have to do with the kind
of Matrix life the Architect chose for him while he was still connected? Or
is it more like a random thing? Meaning, the Architect leaves this .1%
chance
of failure in the Matrix system, and someone like a Mr. Anderson grows up
to learn how to take advantage of the loopholes. Eventually, the One will
develop, but that's when the system needs to be reloaded, to weed out
the next generation of rebels.

Whew. Too much coffee this morning. ;)

Nitpick:

The Architect does not leave in a .1% chance of failure on purpose. The
.1% failure rate is NOT a feature, but a bug. This isn't the only post
I've seen that implies that it's intentional. It is not intentional. It
is a result of the machines' inability to code a reality that will be
accepted as reality by more than 99.9% of the people plugged into it.
Remember that the Oracle actually helped the Architect design the Matrix --
"If I am its father, she is its mother." And it was her design that
allowed the failure rate to be cut to .1% from whatever it was before --
50%, 20%, 99%, whatever.

This is my understanding also. I'm still not sure how everything fits
together, though...

Ah, well... that's why God (or the Architect) created multiple viewings...

Who neeeds caffeine? I'm still on a high from the movie... ;)

Steve Tilson

--
"It's like I tell the kids: Quitters never win, and don't trust whitey."
- Family Guy

As I understand it, it was:

The door to Neo's right - Reload the Matrix:
- It would hopefully fix the fundamental flaw. If not, we get a 7th
Neo.
- While the Matrix reboots, it's inhabitants are kept alive for Matrix
7.0
- Zion will fall
- Trinity dies

Neo's left - Enter the Matrix to save Trinity
- The flaw will remain
- The flaw will destroy the Matrix - killing everyone hooked up to it
- Zion will still fall (according to the Architect)
- Trinity is saved

No, no. As I recall, according to the Architect, Trinity would die no matter
which choice Neo made. Which means either a) the Architect lied, or b) the
Architect is not in as much control (can't really predict the future) as he
leads on, which gets us back to a) he lies. (By bringing Trinity back to
life, Neo brings in a completely unanticipated event into the Matrix.) Which
in turn calls into question much of what the Architect said to Neo. Which in
turn means we have a great premise for "Revolutions."

Oh, yeah. This movie has no plot ;).

--
øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪøĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš
Eduardo Suastegui
"Test everything. Hold on to the good."
(remove '701' when replying via e-mail)
øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš°`°šĪøĪš°`°šĪø,,,,øĪš

The problem with that assessment is, Neo wasn't to select 23 people from
ZION to repopulate it, he was to select 23 from the MATRIX to repopulate
Zion. Those people would never have heard of Zion. Neo wouldn't be allowed
to interact with them, they would simply be set free, probably guided by the
Oracle.

There have been 6 versions of the Matrix. Each version has produced a
"ONE". Each time the "One" is allowed to reach the source where
he/she learns that the destruction of Zion is inevitable. They are
given the choice, return to the Matrix or interface with the source
and reload the Matrix (and get to save 32 humans to help rebuild
Zion). The previous 5 "Ones" were not as good as Neo (ie "Your
quicker than the others", "No one else was ever in love" etc comments
by the Arch.). They didnt have anyone in paticular they cared about
saving, so they reloaded the Matrix and life went on. The "One" gets
to save 32 people (16 couples) to leave the matrix and rebuild Zion.
Presumably the ones chosen are still in the Matrix and are newly
"freed" and didn't know about the recently destroyed Zion. Assuming
that the previous "One" is counted amoung them he probably wouldn't
say anything about what happened (kinda hard to explain anyway) and
may even help foster the machines agenda. The "One" says "Hey, we got
free of the machines and must help the others" etc..

The "One" is a result of the "choices" required for the Matrix to
function. The oracle my not be as rouge a program as she appears, or
she may not realize her true function. I also don't beleive she is
the "mother" of the Matrix. The Archs. comment to Neos question "Oh,
please" seemed kind of like an "Oh yeah right, like that loser could
do anything". I think it's Persephone. Think about that for a while
(what she said and did).

Total random spec her:
Since Neo is so "advanced" and still has "implants" he is able to
connect directly to the machines and control them (Bluetooth or WiFi
maybe ;-) )

Ok, thats all for now.

And that's, we suppose, why you are here, redeeming the Net with witty
prose, while the W bros march in delirious laughter all the way to the bank.

In addition to the interpretation given by others in this topic, there is
another way of seeing the Architect's words.

The world of Zion is also part of the Matrix.

It acts as a safty valve for Matrix Prime. After all, why would you try to
escape the Matrix if you think you already have?

There are some other events that support this view (Smith uploading himself
to the 'real world', Neo sensing and EMPing the sentinals at the end, the
Matrix existing a lot longer than any of the humans suspect), but it's
ambiguous enough so you don't really know for sure.

Very nicely done on the directors' part.

-john dee

This could also help explain the racial makeup of Zion--some people, like
Roger Ebert, have complained about the over-representation of black people
as an attempt by the Wachowskis to co-opt the coolness and credibility of
African-Americans. Others--racist crackpots--have used it to slam the
Wachowskis for PC pandering. My personal theory--which the above scenario
backs up, IMHO--is that Zion's ethnic makeup is simply the result of the
famous "if everybody fucks each other, sooner or later we'll all be the
same color" theory espoused by Richard Pryor. As more minds get freed, more
people who belong to one ethnic group or another enter the population (as
the people who are born and raised in pods are clones, one assumes) but
Zion's indigenous freeborn population tends toward dark complexion as a
result of the cross-pollination that's pretty much inevitable when you're
dealing with a civilization started by just 23 people.

No one knows what choice anyone has made before the choice is made (or the true why of that choice). But given the deterministic
nature of computers, once the choice is made, the outcome is more or less certain irrespective of how much time the computer spends
rendering it. So, if we go with the blue matrix green matrix theory, Neo wasn't seeing the future per se, but the innevitable
conclusion of the sum of all choices that were already made.

I don't know why I'm picking this nit. But it was 23 people, 7 males, 16 females.

I think the Architect's exposition showed that the Matrix has accepted
that "choice" and imprefection is necessary for the illusion to function.
Hence, a certain amount of disbelief is required.

It reminds me of something I've studied in music. The western 12 tone
scale is based around a seven tone scale. Many cultures use a seven or five
tone scale. Our seven tone scale originally had pure harmonies based on
mathematical ratios of whole numbers. But these old scales (The
Pythagorean, for instance) were incapable of modulating between keys in
complex music, especially with alot of sharp and flat notes (12-tone scale,
black and white keys on a piano), without sounding bad in certain keys. So
alot of systems were tried, and the modern "temperment" (equal temperment)
actually changes every single note so that they are out of tune to the
original Pythagorean scale to various degrees, but, taken together, every
note is equall out of tune with every other note. This permits transposing
or modulating between keys freely, the only side effect is that no key has
any particular distinctive sound to it, apart from the pitch. So in
essence, the system synthesizes the fundamental flaw, yet in being flawed
achieves virtual (almost) perfection.

Just one example, but there are many cases of where imperfection is a
necessary part of a system's function- how about mechanical tolerances,
where something can have too high of a tolerance and actually not function
in extreme conditions?

I think reloading the Matrix would just blank their minds, much like
Cypher in the original film. They'd all get reset, think it's 1999 again,
etc. Kind of like reformating your hard drive and installing a "new"
operating system- the hardware (humans in this case) is still functional,
but the software (the Matrix) is new. Matrix 7.0, the latest server
upgrade.

Hopefully Matrix: Revolutions will answer alot more questions. I got the
feeling that this was only really half a film.

Basically, Zion is another matrix for those that can't handle the
other matrix. Why?

1) Agent Smith gets into Zion
2) Neo stops a sentinel in Zion - how can he have powers outside the
matrix?

So the architect was basically saying that they have this cycle of
prophesy. The One is prophesised, arrives and brings about the
destruction of Zion. The One then chooses 26 people to start the new
Zion from scratch (and since this is a matrix, there will be no
evidence of an old Zion). This 'One' then predicts the coming of
himself in the future, and so the story continues. For this to work, I
would guess he would have to have his memories messed with by the
architect.

My guess review of Revolutions can be summed up in two words:

"Logan's Run".

I just can't wait for the future sequel where Trinity starts walking
around in spiky heels carrying a stylish whip:

"The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism"

cLive ;-)

Okay, I think the interpretations I've read here square pretty good
with what I thought too. There are a few points I haven't seen made,
though.

1. I think the Architect said that Zion get's totally destroyed, then
they wake up some specific number of plug-ins to begin the new Zion.
This would explain why no-one remembers that there was a Zion before.
Besides, If the attack on Zion actually left these few alive, then
when Neo goes out the door to his left, he'll be killing everyone on
earth (hence destroying the machines), but the few Zionites will be
left alive (therefore, we win!).

2. I think that the Matrix pretty much runs the same gambit each time
(kind of like a random number generator). This is how the Oracle can
predict the future. She's seen it all before (Six times!). This also
explains why Neo looks like Neo everytime (if those images on the
computer screen are his previous incarnations).

3. Something wierd happened when Neo "joined" with the agent at the
end of the first movie. I don't think this is part of the Architect's
plan. It seems that some of Neo was left in Smith and some of Smith
was imprinted on Neo. This is why Smith was able to Answer the phone
and actually enter the real world (in the body of that dude with the
knife) and this is how neo has the ability to EMP the bad guys at the
end.

This makes a lot of stuff more clear, but still one thing don't make
sense to me - if Neo was created by The Architect, then why is Agent
Smith and others so hellbent on capturing/killing him?? If the
Architect indeed wanted Neo to aid in fixing his code, then why was it
so difficult for them to get the Keymaker and access the backdoors?

You didn't understand because you don't speak Stereo Instructions. It's a
hard language to grasp.

--
Franklin Harris
Pulp Culture Online, www.pulpculture.net
"The truly psychotic don't need to cop an attitude." -- Poppy Z. Brite,
alt.horror, 2/21/03

No no, he was speaking in five dollar words. Stereo instructions are this http://www.engrish.com/

My take on the architect/neo conversation has to do with spirituality or
mysticism. The common theme that kept getting debated was the "free choice
versus determinism" For the matrix to work, you need free choice. The
question is "free choice between what?" My take is "free choice between
good & evil". Earlier attempts failed (from the original perfect world, to
the world containing angels, ghosts, vampires) because they just didn't have
the belief thing mastered. For humans to accept the artificial reality, you
need them to believe in a higher reality. It's the old "why are we here"
question. They harvest the energy we expend trying to answer that question.
If that question is not burning inside us, we as a society breakdown.

So, the watchdog programs (Architect, Oracle) create a credible mysticism or
higher reality with "Zion" and allows it to grow until it reaches a certain
size, reboots, and does it again. The focal point of that reality "Neo"
plays his role until he is given the Spock choice "the good of the many
versus the good of the few" and then he decides. They can't know Neo's
choice before hand because that would be deterministic and a deterministic
system doesn't work. All six times before, as expected, Neo choice the good
of the many. They harvest from him anything of use for improving the
program and then allow him to pick 12 others for the next "Zion" core group.
The process then repeats.

We really don't know if Neo is an anomaly this time, if Mr. Smith is the
anomaly, or if it will go on again and again.

I thought the best part of the movie was showing the Oracle to be just as
arrogant as the Architect. One believes free choice presents no danger
because it is predictable, the other believes free choice is unnecessary
because perfection should be achievable.

RLK

The Agents were there to make it look difficult. They were hellbent on
capturing the Keymaker because for the rebellion to maintain the appearance
of being against the will of the machines it needs to look like the machines
are really pissed off about it. So the Agents were programmed to stop it.
But the Architect likes the juice supplied by the 250,000 upstarts, and will
only kill them when they threaten the minds of the other 6 billion. Hence
the deus ex machina program, Neo, which is designed to manifest and report
to him when the rebels have collectively figured out enough of the system to
be dangerous.

The Agents could indeed kill the rebels, but as the resistance grows and
more and more minds are freed suddenly there are more people running up
walls and jumping off rooftops than the Agents can handle and you've got a
lot of explaining to do to the rest of the human race who thinks they live
in a world where such feats are impossible. So before that can happen there
needs to be a super anomaly that takes matters out of the hands of the
Agents and right to the Architect's doorstep. Neo.

That's assuming that Neo is an computer generated anomaly and the "real
world" is still part of the Matrix. If the "real world" of the film truly
is real, then the Architect set up the Matrix so that the deus ex machina
would be a human but nurtured by his own Oracle when the time drew near to
clear cookies and reboot. The Oracle would then not only assist the
resistance in finding a worthy candidate to serve as their "One", but also
one who didn't have any significant emotional attachments or relations to
specific individuals within the Matrix. One who would ultimately be able to
agree to sacrifice 250,000 for 6 billion. Neo in the first film was a good
candidate, but they didn't count on him falling in love in the real world.

Later,

Kevin

One could argue that

1) If the personality of the 'free humans' can drive a matrix construct,
then why not have a 'free construct' drive a human. I do not see why,
in terms of the movie's internal logic, why that is not possible.

2) The machines draw power from the linked humans. Neo releases an
energy that stops the machine, but the use of which throws him into a
coma. Why could it not be that the human Neo is directing some of his
energy and his inate ability to manipulate the Matrix into the real
world.

It could also be that the Architect offers the choice of release from
the Matrix to humans that become aware of the Matrix. Those humans are
allowed to disconnect from the Matrix, assuring that they have less
influence over the Matrix. When the number of 'free humans' becomes too
large to be self-sustaining, or become a numeric threat to the Matrix,
the architect then destroys Zion and begins again. Again, it does not
have to be another simulation ( and I would argue that if it was a
simulation it might be discovered at some point). It is logical for Zion
to be 'real'' (if you beleive in reality, that is)

'Colossus: The Forbin Project'

For example, the Architect told Neo Trinity was going to die, he could
consider Neo's possible responses: "I won't let that happen", "Gee,
that's too bad", and "I want pancakes". Now the Architect knows Neo
(from observing him) and knows that the first is most likely, the
second less likely, and the pancakes wouldn't even enter Neo's mind.
From those two at least somewhat likely decisions, the computer can
then figure out what its response would be, and what that could
possibly trigger in Neo, and so on.

Thus, I believe it is possible for the computer to confidently believe
it knows the outcome of any decision Neo could choose regadless of the
choice he actually decides upon.

The problem is if Neo chooses to do something that the computer had
assigned a low proability to and thus never considered the aftermath.
Others have speculated that the love between Neo and Trinity was a
wild card (even the Architect admits love was a new variable).
Perhaps this will be the fatal flaw in the system that causes its
final breakdown.

Regads,
Trinition

jmnu...@attbi.com (jmnugent) wrote in message news:<72524be9.03051...@posting.google.com>...
> Saw the movie last night---thought it was spectacular.

Neo wasn't 'Created' by the Architect he was just an imperfection that came
out of the system.

Eventually some'one' would be 'grown' that would have the mental ability to
see the 'truth' and reject the program.* If you start out with a fresh
matrix and start searching for that 'one' right away (Like the Oracle did by
enlisting humans like Morphious (which in turn couldn't just be woken up in
his pod and that's it. He needed somewhere to go, someplace they could all
go and cooperate)) then once you find that 'one' you can recreate the matrix
better so that the chances of that happening again lessen. And so the cycle
continues indefinitely.

Here's an analogy.

I have to build a vehicle for transportation (oh by the way, I'm a
perfectionist and I have all the time I need)

I don't know how to do it, so I just try it.

I fail.

I learn from my mistake then try again.

I fail.

I know I'm going to fail until it works to my perfect specifications.

So I try to find the problem right away, instead of just letting happen.

I (the Oracle) finds the problem, it breaks the vehicle (resets the matrix),
I fix the problem. Then I start over again.

This continues indefinitely, thus I never perfect the vehicle but make it
better each time it breaks. This is the only thing I can do aspire for a
perfect thing in an imperfect world.

Thus, finding the problem really implies that the machines are playing with
fire. They must set the best 'potentials' free so they can try not to let
it happen again. This is where the agents and all the other programs
defending the matrix come in. They are to try to stop people from escaping.
If they do, then obviously the dead person isn't the 'One.' These programs
are simply that, programs, they know what they are told, that's it. That's
why Mr. Smith has such a hard time dealing with the fact that he killed Neo
but Neo is not dead.

The Oracle then leads the potential 'One' as far as he can go. If he dies,
then again, he's not the 'One' and she continues searching.

Well it sounded good in my head. I can't seem to wrap the 'Freedom of
Choose' to my above statements. Perhaps 'Choice' is the only ONE thing that
HAS to stay constant for humans stay asleep. Or else the reject the
program.

Scott

The film was playing around with the ideas of free will vs predestination -
a theological conundrum for many centuries, and one which I doubt the Matrix
movies will solve. Given an omniscient God, all past and future are known;
how can Man then possess free will? Moreover, the ultimate fate (Heaven or
Hell) of every individual is already determined whatever good or evil he
does in life.

The Matrix cop-out is (or will be) that its Computer Creater (i.e. the
Architect) in fact is *not* omniscient and merely looking at probabilities.
Thus Neo has a small but real chance of defying his scripted future. This
means that the Architect is not God (even within his own Matrix), Free-will
and Love triumphs, and we go on to Revolutions.

Given the ending of Reloaded, the "real world" is either bendable to Neo's
newly found powers, or is a next-level Matrix encompassing the old. Better
yet, and resolving many philosophical mumbo-jumbo loose ends, Neo transcends
both Matrices - and all others, because he *is* God : God of the Matrices.
Neo dies on the cyber-cross and reports back to work as Mister Anderson.

And on a totally different topic:

I'm glad that Matrix 3 is already in the can. The main actors have not aged
well since the first Matrix. Although he has remain the youngest-looking,
Keanu Reeves' neck creases are portents of bifocal sunglasses soon to come.
Laurence Fishburne has obviously enjoyed some fine food beyond
Nebuchadnezzer gruel. And Carrie-Ann Moss: O Boy ! The slightly
androgynous babe of Matrix I is now a mannish, boobless, wrinkled crone. It
must be true love that made Neo reject Persephone.

Bill T

Here's how I understood it:

The first matrix was perfect, but as Agent Smith said in the first
movie, people could not accept this perfection. As the architect says
in the new movie, this eden-like perfect world lead to mass rejections
of the Matrix programming, a catastrophic, "monumental failure."

So, the architect used the oracle, whose program had been created for
the purpose of examining the human psyche, to develop a program that
could be accepted by people. And the oracle came up with the solution
of offering people an almost undetectable, "near unconscious" level of
free will within the matrix. This solution resulted in a 99.9%
acceptance of the programming, instead of the mass failures of the
architect's original matrix programs. However, the .1% flaw in the
programming builds up over time; every time someone uses the
unconscious level of free will they are endowed with in a way that the
programming doesn't expect or cannot accept, the program is slightly
corrupted.

To counteract this, the machines originally created Zion for the sole
purpose that there would be people to search for The One, as I
understand it. Now, this is where I think people in other posts are
wrong. Almost everyone else has said that everytime someone uses their
free will and corrupts the matrix a little, they are freed and sent to
Zion. Not so, I say. They don't necessarily have to be freed because
the made a choice inconsistent with the Matrix programming; they
merely contribute to the corruption of the Matrix. The people in Zion
follow their own agenda in selecting who they free from the Matrix and
how they go about doing it. But, early on they are contacted by the
Oracle, who gives them the false prophecy that there will be a One who
will go to the Source and end the war, saving humanity. That way, some
of the people of Zion (and there will be dissenters, as we see in CDR
Locke) will devote their lives to seeking out the One.

The machines time it so that when the number of errors in the Matrix
program as a result of people exercising their free will becomes
dangerously high, the One emerges and is found by Zion (this is why
they created Zion in the first place, and why it is necessary for Zion
to be rebuilt each time it is destroyed). The purpose of the One, as
the architect says, is to reinsert the prime programming into the
matrix, effectively "reloading" or "rebooting" it. All the errors that
have built up over time will be wiped out, and the cycle of building
Zion and finding the One repeats.

The reason the machines need a human, a One, to "reboot" the matrix
was implied in the first movie. Morpheos said that when the first of
his (the sixth, as it happens) inhabitants of Zion were freed, there
was a person who had the ability to recreate the matrix as he saw fit.
I think this was the One from the previous (the fifth) version of the
Matrix, and the "first ones that were freed" were the 23 people
selected to rebuild Zion. The architect and the machines seek to
perfect the matrix with each iteration of the cycle so that they don't
have to keep "rebooting" it and destroying and refounding the city of
human rebels that their imperfect, 99.9% efficient, matrix must allow
to survive; they seek 100% perfection, not 99.9% perfection, so that
all humans can be totally under the machines' control. However, their
perfect machine minds cannot take into account the various human
factors that would ensure the successful adoption of a "perfect"
matrix; they need a person to do this, which is why they got the idea
to create a One who can reboot the matrix, wiping out the accoumalated
errors and use his human touch to bring it ever closer to perfection,
or "alter it as he sees fit." As a result, they need a Zion to seek
out this One, which is why with each iteration of the Matrix a new
Zion needs to be founded and the old one destroyed to wipe out the
record of the previous matrix and the previous human revolts.

Thats how I understand it anyway ;)

PS Something cool that someone else said was that what if the
Merovingian and Persephone are the Neo and Trinity of the previous
matrix, whose romance fizzled when the Merovingian chose logic over
love? I know the architect said that Neo was the first One to fall in
love but its still a cool idea.

There are a few possibilties for why Neo stops the sentinels near the
end:
1) He is is still in the Matrix, or a Matrix.
2) Smith is part of him and he can manipulate machines.
3) His mind made his powers real.

1) The first is the most obvious. But the Wachowski Bros would have
to think up a pretty good solution to that little paradox--if the
entire series is to be wrapped up in Revolutions, they'd have a big
mess to deal with. I get the feeling the ending is going to be clean,
a sentence or two solution to EVERYTHING. Can't wait.

2) This is certainly a possibility as well. Although the tradeoff of
materia between Smith and Neo that took place was apparently only in
the Matrix, we can't be sure of just how into metaphysics the W Bros
are going to get. We're dealing with predermination,
causuality--paranormality? Not out of the question.

3) Although an essential part of the Matrix is the power of the mind,
and that death in the Matrix means death in the "real" world (Geez...I
have to put "real in quotes now), it isn't likely that the mind also
has the power to grant Neo powers similar to those he has in the
Matrix.

I doubt Neo is a program. He's a human being, but he's part of the
plan, and since the machines have such a grasp of the human mindset,
they can predict his actions with relative accuracy. "The One" is
purported by the machines, however--it is a kind of preliminary strike
against human rebellion. The machines have a "get them before they
get us" mentality, and they believe if they can have somewhat of a
handle on the "rebellion," it can be quelled with ease.

Loooooooooooooooooooooong...sorry folks.

cam...@cfl.rr.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<532b75b8.0305...@posting.google.com>...

>This might help btw....

<Script Excerpt - The Meeting between Neo And The Architect>

Cool.

Where'd you get that?
--
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987

Oh Jesus, how you hyperbolize. What a complete idiot you are. It must be
nice being completely something, I suppose.

>
>Perhaps? I think the trilogy so far has been beating us over the head
>with this. It's like some corny 50's sci-fi where the alien overlord
>says, "We didn't count on the human emotion love!"

Yes, I don't understand why people are looking for profound meaning in
this. If you took all the pontification in this movie, changed the
vocabulary to standard eighth grade level, and slowed the rapid-fire
delivery, you'd see nothing more than some sophomoric musings on free
will vs predestination. Not much more challenging a discussion than
"If I went back in time and killed my grandfather, would I exist? If I
didn't exist, how could I have killed my grandfather?"

The comedian Bill Maher once said: "If you make people think, they
will hate you. If you make them think they are thinking, they will
love you." This is a movie that makes people think they are thinking.

Dick Evans

That's just it -- the Architect told him he *hadn't* broken free. That
the One was just another mechanism for controlling the Matrix -- Neo
embodies an extreme contingency that is an element of the Matrix
itself, and is best thought of as a *probability* that over time
accumulates higher and higher until it reaches 100%.

100% probability = ONE = The One. How cool is that?

Also the Architect refers to "integral anomalies" -- I think that
means when the anomaly becomes an integral -- i.e. a whole number --
e.g. ONE, 2, etc.

The Architect said he was faster on the uptake than his 5
precedessors. Which suggests to me that The One *also* accumulates
from cycle to cycle. Which implies a Next Higher Assembly of some
sort.

SPOILERY SPECULATION FOR 'REVOLUTIONS':

Neo's ability to stop the sentinals reflects the Architect's cryptic
message about Neo carrying "the code" with him back out into the world
-- it seems likely that "the real world" is itself a simulation.

The big question is: is the Architect running inside a simulation too,
or is his perception of things the "Real" reality? I'm thinking it's
very possibly the former.

(Actually the big question is: what is Smith's relationship to The
Architect?)

The Oracle was slippery as usual, though she *seemed* much more
straightforward than in Matrix I. She *almost* directly said that she
knew whether Neo would take the red-pill-shaped candy from her. It's
really the same dilemma she posed back in her kitchen, "Would you
still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

If the Oracle -- if God, *anyone* knows ahead of time (because of the
way the Matrix, or the universe, is structured) which choices we will
make -- and I believe that is what the Wachowskis intend for us to
believe is true, THEN:

Free will -- choice -- doesn't matter to the outcome of events, and
there really is such a thing as Fate. IOW, in a universe where God
knows with absolute certainty what we are going to do before we do it,
Fate exists.

However, the choices we make affect our experience of ourselves. We
hate ourselves for making some choices, and we respect ourselves for
making others. The choices we make affect our characters, and our
characters are the template from which our next set of choices
emerges...

Didja notice that throughout most of their conversation, the million
Neos were showing different reactions to the Architects words (each of
them being a different simulation? Or a different version -- i.e.
similar to quantum "many worlds" theories?) BUT when Neo had to make a
choice between "Saving Zion" and "Saving Trinity", EVERY SINGLE
"VERSION" of Neo chose to save Trinity.

I thought that was a great moment.

See above :) . The Architect didn't say their love was a wild card, he
said that Neo's attachment to humanity had become embodied in exactly
one attachment -- his attachment to Trinity. Rather than in a
generalized love of humanity.

--
"Thank god we're hot chicks with superpowers"

I think you're wrong, I think the Architect is not looking at
probabilities.

Think of him as Programmer-Elevated-To-Godhead. A programmer knows
what his code is intended to do. And he knows it has bugs in it. This
isn't a matter of probability, it's a matter of certainty.

Any programmer worth his salt writes error handling procedures.

A great programmer -- which the Architect obviously is -- realizes
that some bugs will go undetected for a Very Long Time but still
builds contingency mechanisms in so that when the bug finally surfaces
he can fix it.

Ooh, harsh, but I noticed it too!

Welcome to the desert of the real, baby. Ever heard the word
"commodification", or read "Society of the Spectacle"? In the mid
1950's Guy Debord figured out *exactly* what you just said.

http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/

A simple recent example of this in pop culture is Eminem. He positions
himself as a rebel. But uses the very mechanisms of the music industry
that he's supposedly fighting to further enrich himself, thus
strengthening the industry he pretends to fight.

>news:3EC51F53...@csciences.com...
>> I agree with the Zion survivors telling decendants that the prophecy is
>> false (see my comment a few posts down).
>>
>> As I understand it, it was:
>>
>> The door to Neo's right - Reload the Matrix:
>> - It would hopefully fix the fundamental flaw. If not, we get a 7th
>> Neo.
>> - While the Matrix reboots, it's inhabitants are kept alive for Matrix
>> 7.0
>> - Zion will fall
>> - Trinity dies
>>
>> Neo's left - Enter the Matrix to save Trinity
>> - The flaw will remain
>> - The flaw will destroy the Matrix - killing everyone hooked up to it
>> - Zion will still fall (according to the Architect)
>> - Trinity is saved
>
>No, no. As I recall, according to the Architect, Trinity would die no matter
>which choice Neo made. Which means either a) the Architect lied, or b) the
>Architect is not in as much control (can't really predict the future) as he
>leads on, which gets us back to a) he lies. (By bringing Trinity back to
>life, Neo brings in a completely unanticipated event into the Matrix.) Which
>in turn calls into question much of what the Architect said to Neo.

No no no. Trinity died! The Architect did not lie :)

It's just like the words the Oracle *actually said* in Matrix I (as
opposed to what Neo *thought* she said): "You've got the Gift, but it
looks like you're waiting for something. Your next life maybe." The
Oracle was *exactly* right then -- Neo wasn't The One until he died
and was resurrected.

Neither the Oracle or the Architect told Neo the WHOLE truth, but what
they said was true.

It would be a cheat for the Wachowskis to give us a big exposition
scene that didn't mean anything, and I know they're smarter than that.

>Yeah, that much I don't know. Maybe he did just leave that .1% chance
>alone, *knowing* that someone would surface. On the other hand, the
>first half of the first Matrix, we keep getting the "Neo is special"
>thing thrown at us, so maybe he was chosen by fate, or maybe just chosen
>by the Architect. Either way, I guess it doesn't matter.

It very much matters! If Neo is "special", an exception -- a bug --
that's one thing. But it looks like rather than being an error, Neo is
actually an error-handling routine.

I think the much more interesting question is: what is Smith's
relationship to the Architect?

>
>"Fusion" <so_sk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:daefcb72.03051...@posting.google.com...
>> Here's what I got out of it:
>>
>> There have been 6 versions of the Matrix. Each version has produced a
>> "ONE". Each time the "One" is allowed to reach the source where
>> he/she learns that the destruction of Zion is inevitable. They are
>> given the choice, return to the Matrix or interface with the source
>> and reload the Matrix (and get to save 32 humans to help rebuild
>
>I don't know why I'm picking this nit. But it was 23 people, 7 males, 16 females.
>

It's an interesting nit, though, after you scratch the surface.

Since humans aren't born but GROWN by the machines -- since all human
interaction in the Matrix is an illusion without physical contact --
e.g. no actual sex, how in the world of the Matrix does heredity and
propagation actually happen?

One possibility is that a single actual person's life (if there is
such a thing) can encompass *many* virtual, Matrix lives. That's been
hinted at more than once.

Of course, Zion is supposedly not part of the Matrix... supposedly it
is exactly *freedom and escape* from the Matrix. Unless of course
there is a Next Higher Assembly... :)

If it turns out at the end of 'Revolutions' that there are only 10 or
12 "real" people, running a Meta-Matrix simulation while they travel
to Alpha Centauri in a spaceship I'm gonna be real pissed off....

Was it stated that the monitors were images from the previous 'Ones'? I was
under the impression that the images were the architect's calculations of
Neo's possible reactions, and the highlighting of the one Neo chose (the
meshing of monitor image to Neo-in-the-room image) was in effect showing
that the matrix had been prepared for all possible scenarios.

-Becky

> J44XM wrote in <Xns937D269...@216.168.3.44>:

> Somehow if Neo doesn't reload the Matrix all humanity will die. If he
> does he gets to pick a small handful of people to reform Zion. He
> takes the first choice and that means all humanity is about to die
> UNLESS NEO STOPS IT! Now that he has magic powers in real life, this
> should be easy.
>
> This movie is a glorified video game and the thing I think is funniest
> are the earnest nerds who think a few fortune cookie lines make for
> heavy philosophizing. Champions of this movie's superficial themes
> are generally kids who think an MTV music video is deep.
>
> Don't waste too many cycles trying to understand what this lame movie
> was about. Do you sit and ponder what Resident Evil was really about?
> The two movies are operating on precisely the same retarded video game
> level. People who think otherwise are deluding themselves.

Religion has always been a tool for those in power to control and sedate the
masses. If the people believe that the mystical journey of a "messiah" will
eventually defeat the machines, the people are not going to take the
necessary military steps to defeat the machines.

Look at the way that Morpheus unwittingly drew ships away from defense of
Zion in the name of this religious crusade. Look at how much more the people
love Morpheus than the military powers.

The biggest single unanswered question from Reloaded is: What does
Smith want? It seems like *he* wants to be the One. What is *his*
relationship to the Architect?

Of course I'd also like to know how Smith got into the Corridor
without the Keymaker's help!

--
"Me. Me me me." "Me too."

I have been wondering about that too. Either they were the Architect's
simulations of possible Neo reactions, OR (a la the "Many-Worlds"
theory of quantum mechanics) they were all *actual* reactions to the
Architect. A multiplex universe, IOW.

The cool thing was that *every single* video screen showed Neo
choosing to save Trinity :)

But there was no Trinity (at least not as a love) in the past. The
Architect said that "While the others experienced this in a very general
way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love."

So the video screens can't be recordings of previous Neos choosing to
save previous Trinitys.

Also, there are just too many screens (and too many different reactions,
I am pretty sure) for just five previous Ones.

But on the other hand at one point when the Architect says that Neo is
number six, the screens don't all react to that number. According to
this transcript:

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting
from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the
next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*

Why is one screen-Neo saying "Three?" if the Architect just got done
saying "Sixth version"?

So there is conflicting evidence.

Which may indicate that the Matrix is a quantum computer...

John DiFool

Also, the Merovingian himself mentioned that he'd survived Neo's
predecessors (note the plural) so we should assume he's not One #5
(and probably not any One at all.)

Other than that, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on. What do you
think about the "Blue Matrix" theory? I don't buy it, personally.

I think Neo just shorted out the sentinels using good old-fashioned
technology (via something to do with his implants.) I don't think his
powers are "crossing over" into the real world, nor do I think they're
really in a "Blue Matrix." The "something" that was different was
just that he'd activated something in his implants that allowed him to
sense the machines, and exert some measure of control over them.

One possibility I've seened mentioned that *does* interest me, is that
the "mother of the Matrix" might not be the Oracle, but rather
Persephone. The Architect never *says* that the Oracle is the mother
(and even seems dismissive when Neo mentions her name... at first I
thought this was just over his using the title of "Oracle" but now I
wonder...)

-Bill Lewis Clark

Huh? Please explain so that I can laugh like everyone else.

Hahaha!! I noticed that gut as well, but the voice! Oh my.

LMAO!! I think she looks about the same, its just that you guys are
really seeing her for the first time.

Puzz

Damn, I hadn't caught that one. Thanks

Puzz

I thought it was a 'lets make a deal' kinda thing. As in you can pick
what's behind door #1 or door #2. There weren't any other variables.
He either arrives in time to save Trinity or he reboots the Matrix.

Puzz

I thought they said the old programs that failed (as in their jobs) were
deleted. For some reason Smith didn't come when called, much like the
Key master. If they only had clean sweep! LOL.

Puzz

They can't come from the Matrix. They would need help because they
haven't ever used their muscles, etc. They would need someone in the
real world to help them. I think if Neo could save anyone, it would
have to be the children of Zion. They would grow up with only bits and
pieces of their history. But then how do they survive? Haven't figured
that one out. I do think that each cycle takes several hundred years,
though.

Puzz

There was never a scenario given where the humans won. Either choice by
Neo ended with Zion destroyed.

> 2. I think that the Matrix pretty much runs the same gambit each time
> (kind of like a random number generator). This is how the Oracle can
> predict the future. She's seen it all before (Six times!). This also
> explains why Neo looks like Neo everytime (if those images on the
> computer screen are his previous incarnations).
>
I thought that was cool, but I took it to mean that these were all the
possible reactions from Neo. IIRC, he responded to the Architect on
screen before in he did irl (oops!).

> 3. Something wierd happened when Neo "joined" with the agent at the
> end of the first movie. I don't think this is part of the Architect's
> plan. It seems that some of Neo was left in Smith and some of Smith
> was imprinted on Neo. This is why Smith was able to Answer the phone
> and actually enter the real world (in the body of that dude with the
> knife) and this is how neo has the ability to EMP the bad guys at the
> end.

I thought Neo dreamed this.

Puzz

everything snipped. Why are you even talking about this movie that you
hate? I won't waste my time discussing a movie I didn't like, so it
boggles when someone else does. Sheesh.

Puzz ~ can't your newsreader skip these threads?

Zion is wiped out. A new Zion is created using a selection of people from the
Matrix.

Zion serves as a release valve for people who refuse to accept the reality of
the Matrix. By allowing them to "escape to Zion", the machines give them an
illusion of freedom while -- in fact -- possessing the ability to wipe them out
when the time comes.

>Also, I didn't understand what motive the ONE would have for
>reloading the program? Didn't the Archetict say reloading the program
>would kill everyone plugged into the matrix?

No. The choices were:

a) Reload the program and found a new Zion; or
b) We kill everyone plugged into the Matrix.

The odd thing is that the Architect then shows Neo that Trinity is in danger...
which pushes Trinity to choose option B. But option B seems to be what the
Architect *doesn't* want. So there's either a hole here or (more likely) a
wrinkle which has not yet been revealed.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

That doesn't make any sense. The Architect says that he *can't* save Trinity.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

I believe his actual words are: "She is going to die and there is nothing you
can do about it."

Which, OK, is true in an uber-sense: Everybody dies. But unless the Architect
is doing an Obi-Wan impression he was *wrong*.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

If you kill everybody then there's nobody to pass on the knowledge.

Which is, in fact, what the Architect claims has happened five times before.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Right.

>Neo wouldn't be allowed
>to interact with them, they would simply be set free, probably guided by the
>Oracle.

Wrong. Go back to the first film and re-watch Morpheus telling Neo about the
previous incarnation of the One.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Think of it like this:

1. Errors accumulate in the Matrix. As they accumulate, more and more people
reject the reality of the Matrix.
2. If you just allowed these people to run around the Matrix they'd cause
nothing but trouble. Trouble which would grow exponentially because their
activities would cause other people to reject the Matrix, who would -- in turn
-- cause others to reject the Matrix, and so on.
3. So you create Zion. Zion serves as a release valve. People who wake up from
the Matrix go to Zion. A few of them still kick around and cause problems, but
the majority of people who go to Zion stay in Zion. And in fact, the people who
kick around and cause problems are actually doing you a service because they're
frequently identifying problem cases before they become serious.
4. The Agents serve as a control mechanism. They minimize the damage freed
individuals like Morpheus and Trinity can do.
5. The Prophecy and the War Against the Machines act as further control
mechanisms: They give the people of Zion a goal to strive for a predetermined
road to follow. The Oracle helps to reinforce the Prophecy.

Eventually, though, the errors grow too numerous. More and more people wake up
from the Matrix. And, eventually, you the One emerges. The One can see right
through the workings of the Matrix. He not only "wakes up" to the Matrix, he is
capable of seeing through its fundamental flaw and disassembling it.

That's when the machines move to their end game:

1. An army is mobilized for the destruction of Zion. This will wipe out all of
those people who rejected the reality of the Matrix.
2. Guided by the Prophecy and the Oracle, the One goes on the quest for the Key
Maker, the Door of Light, and the Machine Mainframe.
3. This neatly maneuvers him into his encounter with the Architect, where is
given two choices:

(a) He can choose to enter the Source. Zion will be destroyed, but he will be
allowed to found a new Zion. This restarts the whole cycle (see below).
(b) He can choose to go back into the Matrix. Zion will still be destroyed
(there's nothing he can do to save it). But more than that, the machines will
kill everyone connected to the Matrix -- effectively wiping out humanity.

Essentially, the One is given a carrot ("you'll be able to found a new Zion")
and a stick ("we'll kill everyone if you don't") to make him choose to enter
the Source.

If he does, then following happens:

1. The One's mind will be analyzed and his innate knowledge of the current
Matrix's flaws will be analyzed and used to recompile the Matrix. The new
Matrix will be better. There will be fewer errors. Fewer people will reject the
Matrix. If all goes well, this new Matrix will last longer than the last
Matrix.
2. Zion will be destroyed.
3. The One will be allowed to choose 23 people (16 female, 9 male) from the
Matrix to found a new Zion.
4. The cycle starts over again.

Now, there are a couple of caveats and additions to this:

1. This is just what the Architect tells Neo. We have no reason to trust him,
and there are a number of potential problems with his story. For example, if
the Architect really wants Neo to join with the source, why does he go out of
his way to show Neo the plight of Trinity -- thereby giving him motivation to
choose to return to the Matrix?

2. Neo's trick at the end of RELOADED suggests that the world of Zion is not
the real world, either, just another layer of control. People who are allowed
to "escape" from the Matrix don't really escape... they just get shunted to
another virtual reality.

3. If that truly is the case, then there's a *really* good chance that the
Council of Zion is not human. If the every event of "providence" which confirms
the pre-destination of the Prophecy is really just a manipulation of the
Architect and the Oracle, then it's very interesting to note that the Council
seems to go out of its way to set-up one of those incidents of "providence" by
dispatching two ships to go looking for Morpheus. Coupled with the fact that
there are only old men on the Council, things look might suspicious to me.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

I saw them as being a visual interpretation of Neo's actual thought process.

Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com

Went over your head, eh?

JB

I think that the center of the story is that there are really two
worlds, one inside the other. (What some have alluded to as a "Next
Higher Level"). The "Inner Matrix" is what we were presented with in
film #1, and what we have seen as the "reality" is really the "Outer
Matrix". The two are needed because the inner matrix develops this
glitch after a while that drives instability in it, and needs the
outer matrix to "reset" it (which is when the Neo cycle happens).

Why I think this?

1. The scene at the end where now Neo can "feel" the machines and can
actually stop them with EMP-like stuff at the end of the film --- this
is not plausible in a real world, but normal in a "Outer Matrix"
scenario.

2. In the first film, Morpheus tells Neo that the year is about 100
years in the future. This matches the "century" he mentions in his
Zion speech. However, These two things cannot be true if Zion has been
destroyed and rebuilt six times. Therefore, either (a) We're really
not in 2100 but in the year 2600 or so, or (b) The century is just a
perception implanted in the people in the "Outer Matrix".

3. Having a "Neo" develop with EXACTLY the same features and do the
exact same things makes it unlikely Neo is really "real" - remember
that people look like they do in reality (you can see them when they
"unplug" them). So either the machines clone every 100 years a "Neo"
with the same exact DNA (why would they need to do this if really
Neo's power are not "natural" but a software function?)

4. The whole "predestined" "lack of free will" seems to happen to
people who are "unplugged" and therefore should be able to make
decisions on their own (like Trinity regarding her going back into the
Matrix). Unless you believe that the "real" world is predestined, of
course ;).

All of these things make me believe the "Outer Matrix" idea. I do
think the Architect's comments should have been explained slower and
in a clearer way, unless the idea is to drive revenue by having people
try to figure out the movie by watching it 5 times ;).

Excellent thought, but to expand upon it...In the first movie Morpheus
says to Neo that when the Matrix was first formed there was a man born
inside who could change things however he wanted and freed the first
of them. Also he mentions they have no idea what year it is, but that
the Matrix is a result of a war between man and machine. So when the
Matrix is reloaded every time, the "One" who freed the 32 people to
repopulate Zion, probably tries to explain how there was a war, but
the 32 newly-freed people are unable to grasp the concept of what
actually happened. But the "One" could never truly give up hope for
the human race I believe, and every time a new "One" reloads the
Matrix, he perpetuates the story that is told by the oracle that there
is a "One" who will one day bring a destruction to the Matrix and
freedom to humanity. What the previous "One"s were probably thinking
is, "Hey, I guess I am enough of an anomoly to reload the Matrix, but
as the program gets better and better, so will the next "anomoly"
until the final "anomoly" will truly be the "One". Thusly the legend
passes each time with a man being born inside the Matrix who could
change it however he saw fit, freeing the "first" humans.

Also, another thought is that the time-frame of the movies could
actually be tens of thousands of years in the future, because after
the destruction of Zion, it certainly would take a HUGE amount of time
to create new ships, interfaces for the Matrix, create databases so
people can have information directly downloaded into their brains,
etc. Multiply this six times, and thats a lot of dark ages and
rennaisances(sp).

This movie is driving me crazy, good thing part 3 is coming out in a
few months...

omnis...@hotmail.com (Steven) wrote in message news:<40697b97.03051...@posting.google.com>...
> If the world containing Zion and the rebels is a second Matrix, then
> it wouldn't make much sense for the rebels to be able to handle it and
> not the first Matrix. If it's inherent in them to see through the
> fake reality, there would be nothing keeping this from happening in
> Zion either. If there was, the machines would simply redesign the
> first Matrix with this safeguard.
>
> There are a few possibilties for why Neo stops the sentinels near the
> end:
> 1) He is is still in the Matrix, or a Matrix.
> 2) Smith is part of him and he can manipulate machines.
> 3) His mind made his powers real.
>
> 1) The first is the most obvious. But the Wachowski Bros would have
> to think up a pretty good solution to that little paradox--if the
> entire series is to be wrapped up in Revolutions, they'd have a big
> mess to deal with. I get the feeling the ending is going to be clean,
> a sentence or two solution to EVERYTHING. Can't wait.
>
> 2) This is certainly a possibility as well. Although the tradeoff of
> materia between Smith and Neo that took place was apparently only in
> the Matrix, we can't be sure of just how into metaphysics the W Bros
> are going to get. We're dealing with predermination,
> causuality--paranormality? Not out of the question.
>
> 3) Although an essential part of the Matrix is the power of the mind,
> and that death in the Matrix means death in the "real" world (Geez...I
> have to put "real in quotes now), it isn't likely that the mind also
> has the power to grant Neo powers similar to those he has in the
> Matrix.
>
> I doubt Neo is a program. He's a human being, but he's part of the
> plan, and since the machines have such a grasp of the human mindset,
> they can predict his actions with relative accuracy. "The One" is
> purported by the machines, however--it is a kind of preliminary strike
> against human rebellion. The machines have a "get them before they
> get us" mentality, and they believe if they can have somewhat of a
> handle on the "rebellion," it can be quelled with ease.
>
> Loooooooooooooooooooooong...sorry folks.

Rolland

"Richard Knipe" <rkn...@texoma.net> wrote in message
news:ba40f...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > I really enjoyed "The Matrix Reloaded." It was very interesting seeing
Neo
> > actually being The One. However, I didn't quite get what the Architect
was
> > telling Neo at the end of the film about the Matrix, Zion, and The Ones.
> Can
> > some kind-hearted and more observant person summarize (or even better,
> > detail) what the Architect told Neo? I'd really like to understand this.
> My
> > thanks.
> > --
>
>
> My take on the architect/neo conversation has to do with spirituality or
> mysticism. The common theme that kept getting debated was the "free
choice
> versus determinism" For the matrix to work, you need free choice. The
> question is "free choice between what?" My take is "free choice between
> good & evil". Earlier attempts failed (from the original perfect world,
to
> the world containing angels, ghosts, vampires) because they just didn't
have
> the belief thing mastered. For humans to accept the artificial reality,
you
> need them to believe in a higher reality. It's the old "why are we here"
> question. They harvest the energy we expend trying to answer that
question.
> If that question is not burning inside us, we as a society breakdown.
>
> So, the watchdog programs (Architect, Oracle) create a credible mysticism
or
> higher reality with "Zion" and allows it to grow until it reaches a
certain
> size, reboots, and does it again. The focal point of that reality "Neo"
> plays his role until he is given the Spock choice "the good of the many
> versus the good of the few" and then he decides. They can't know Neo's
> choice before hand because that would be deterministic and a deterministic
> system doesn't work. All six times before, as expected, Neo choice the
good
> of the many. They harvest from him anything of use for improving the
> program and then allow him to pick 12 others for the next "Zion" core
group.
> The process then repeats.
>
> We really don't know if Neo is an anomaly this time, if Mr. Smith is the
> anomaly, or if it will go on again and again.
>
> I thought the best part of the movie was showing the Oracle to be just as
> arrogant as the Architect. One believes free choice presents no danger
> because it is predictable, the other believes free choice is unnecessary
> because perfection should be achievable.
>
>
> RLK
>
>

Those are good points, but the Architect *said* he had to choose them
from the Matrix.

Smith is unplugged, and no longer working for the system. He hasn't
been outmoded. He's rebelling; he has his own ends.

You're right, there's conflicting evidence. But "more than 6
reactions" trumps an unofficial transcript of something that's
*extremely* difficult to make out. Though I have to admit, the dialog
for most of the transcript seems spot on.

Sigh. I guess I'll just have to see it again :)

You know, I was sitting next to some teenagers and they were mostly
well-behaved EXCEPT during the Architect scene, when I was working
hardest to absorb the whole thing! I kid you not. Very distracting.

Not yet he isn't...the Sentinels are coming to kill all of them, now.

All the ideas thrown out in this thread are awesome. There are just some
questions we can't answer until the next movie.

Who really won the machine/human war
Is Zion still part of the matrix (which spans)
Is Neo real or a watchdog program
Where/how are the Zionist that are jacked in
What is the anomaly that stops there from being a version 7.0 (if any)
What were they trying to tell us with the ghost/vampire/angel tangent
.........

The ending that would disappoint me the most is if this whole thing was a
machine dream.

RLK

"Rolland Smith" <searc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:laJxa.29709$_e6....@news2.east.cox.net...

Neo asks approximately this question, and as I recall the Oracle explains
that he has already made the choice, and now he's only figuring out why he
made that choice.

That explanation may not apply to all the things she predicts, but it must
apply to some of them. So, on some unconscious level, Neo has already made
certain choices, and those choices are gradually playing themselves out in
his actions over time.