International TheatreSports Institute

Have you seen the ITI license agreement? And if so, is it weighted rather
heavily towards ITI? I mean, there's no exclusivity allowance, a company can't
get any broadcast rights, there's no recourse if you disagree with any of the
license. And ITI is very averse to making any changes...in fact, they just say
no. Any thoughts?

Keith Dahlgren
Unexpected Productions
Seattle WA

I've seen the ComedySportz licensing agreement, and felt much the same way
about it. Outside of the community of improv performers and students, how much
weight does a TSI (or CSz) franchise name carry? Very little with the viewing
public, I suspect. Less with most venues.

I saw your show when I was in Seattle last summer. I think you guys carry TS a
lot more than they carry you.
----------------------
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The ITI Theatresports license is mostly weighted to protect the
Theatresports name. That is an expected outcome. The agreement is not
onerous in any fashion. Your group can elect to use or not use the TS
platform as you see fit. They want 3% of the gross gate. In our case 3%
of nothing doesn't amount to much. However the contract did cost us one
venue.

We had started the application 8 months earlier. There were several
telephone calls (about every 2 months) to check on how lost our
application was. Finally we had signed all the paperwork and sent in
the application. We started a gig at Yuk Yuks and called it
Theatresports. At that point we had not had the application certified
and they sent a legal beagle letter to Yuk Yuks advising them that THEY
were being naughty. When really it was our fault, jumping the gun on
the application. There was no trouble with the application we now have
it, but YukYuks was suitably freaked by the letter. So the producer
changed the name to Improv Comedy Challenge. He has not changed the
name back to TS as ICC is doing fine, and no legal beagle letters can
be sent. Meanwhile I am sitting on the TS license for Hamilton waiting
until a safe space is ready for its release. If that ever happens.

There is no franchise support from ITI. You are responsible for all
your own advertising, they take 3%, and you get to use the name. There
are other names that attract more attention nowadays though. Whose
Lying In It Anyways was a big draw, lots of people do not know what TS
is nowadays.

Seattle has a great show, great gates, great investment in the TS name.
3% could add up to a pretty penny for you all. People know TS there
because of how great your show is and all the work that UP has done.
This will sound ruthless, but unless you are doing a TS tourney
(drawing groups from all over) there is not too much benefit to the TS
name. Over the next few years start making the Unexpected Productions
presents TS more and more prominent until people are going to see UP
and cannot remember what TS is. Well the next step is obvious and it
depends how much you are attached to the institution of TS.

Hold the TS license for conventions and tourneys, allowing you to enter
and allowing you host them. Make a charitable donation to ITI on a
yearly basis (to help out a disorganized, but goodly cause) and put the
3% towards selling UP.

:)hUe, Hugh MacLeod, www.staircase.org
Used to live across the street from a public library.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Ummm...
You are aware that people who are closely associated with the ITI read the
newsgroup, aren't you?

Paul Killam
San Francisco
Partake... Enjoy... Proceed!

Paul:

I am certainly aware of it, and would love to see some discussion on the matter
from other groups with TS licenses. Then maybe ITI will pay attention.

My opinion is this: For 3% of our gross TS income, we should surely be able
to receive some area exclusivity, broadcast rights, and ITI support. Instead,
the license is entirely restrictive. I think for such a restrictive license, a
flat annual fee (say, $500) is enough. Then, if a company wants more
(exclusive rights in the city/county/state/province, local broadcast rights)
they can renegotiate a license with fees that reflect those changes. A simple
business concept.

Vose
The other way it is.

Vose
The way it is.

Keith-
I'm all for open discussion. I think it would be great to have a more
negotiated set of terms rather than dictates. My earlier post was directed at
the "this is how you can get around the liscense" tone Hugh Mc.'s post had
taken.
No offense intended to you either, Hugh. That's just how I read your post.

I have not read the ITI agreements, so I cannot pretend to know the specifics.
But I have been associated with Theatresports for a long time and this is my
opinion: For years and years the Loose Moose Theatre Co. tried to foster the
growth of Theatresports worldwide, manage the copyright and trademark
questions, and tried to keep the spirit of the work going in relatively the
same direction in a hundred different citites. With very little support. Hell,
they had to keep their own theatre going too. I think that the ITI folks are
working with the reality of having to answer the minutiae questions ("Uhhh...
how do we kick somone out of the group?") as well as the relatively important
questions (broadcast rights, how many liscensed companies in Trenton New
Jersey, enforcing copyright violations, etc.), pay the phone bills and pay
someone to keep up with it all. I have always found that Canadians are pretty
reasonable people too. (Double sorry for my attitude, Hugh).
Negotiate - and do it with an open mind. I don't think this is a squeeze play.

No offence taken.

I let people know what our experience was with the ITI to see if other
would share positive or negative. I have never produced anything that
infringes on the TS TM. I know of at least half a dozen other groups
that have done so from coast to coast. For the most part these people
do not bother to deal with the bureaucracy of TS. Not that the
bureaucracy is even onerous (we just finished rezoning our theatre NOW
that's bureaucracy). I have worked in franchises and 3% off the gross
is not that bad. Many of these franchises also require product to be
purchased from the parent company. Franchising is hell. The ITI
agreement is far from onerous.

ITI needs to deal with the perception that they are irrelevant in the
improv theatre community. For most improv troupes even calculating and
mailing a cheque to Calgary is beyond their organizational skills. So
most groups do not even bother. I bet the majority of producers don't
even know what ITI is. If there was even the slightest effort on the
part of the ITI/Loose Moose to support the little guys that don't even
break even doing the format things would be different. Even giving a T-
Shirt or a paper placque (TS in Good Standing 1994) would make a world
of difference.

ITI should talk with the big guys (of which I am not one). Vancouver TS
has been selling probably 500 tickets a week for more than a decade. UP
is as successful. That is a lot of coverage for TS, these groups have
even created games that are standards in TS all over the world. I do
not speak for either organization, but ITI should work closely with
them treat them with respect. People go create TS groups because of
groups like VTSL and UP. These are the engines of proliferation. Impro
is great, but no one finds it in the library and seeks out a TS
franchise.

I prefaced my comments with the fact that they may sound nasty. I have
posted them to hear what people think. Many groups want to support TS,
but find the legal wrangle beyond their abilities. They are not cheap
or intending to steal. They just don't bother with the paper work, call
it TS and go have fun. In the end TS loses, the improvisers lose by not
supporting TS. With the advent of WLIIA no one will be seeking TS
licenses in the future. Just letting people know 'its just like WLIIA'
saves all the time and explanation.

Sad but true.

Ah, Chris, but you forget that agreements *do* need to renew, and most
agreements can be negotiated for better terms (on both sides). There's nothing
unsavory about that. I don't object to previously signed agreements whose
period is now over. It's the new ones that I am concerned about.

Keith Dahlgren
Unexpected Productions
Welcome to the business world

Thanks for a great post. (and thanks Hugh). I personally doubt that ITI
receives questions about how to kick someone out of the group, but nonetheless.
James has his hands full, there's no doubt. I know exactly how he feels.

You need to read your license.

Keith Dahlgren
Unexpected Productions
Seattle, WA

That is only a slight exaggeration of a type of question that was asked of
Dennis Cahill & Deborah Iozzi of the Loose Moose Theatre Co. when they were
dealing with international Theatresports over the years.

I don't run things at this point in time. I'm just an improvisor with a very
long memory.

The ITI is a non-profit organization that was setup by Keith Johnstone. The ITI
took over the licensing duties from Loose Moose Theatre just over a year ago to
allow the Moose to focus on what they were setup to do, run a theatre.

Currently we manage the copyrights and trademarks to Theatresports, Gorilla
Theatre, Micetro Impro and the Life Game (formats which Keith created and that he
owns). In running this company, we need to ensure that the copyright and
trademark for these formats are protected. In doing so, it is necessary for us to
acquire the advice and expertise of various lawyers (in various countries). This
is a very time consuming and expensive activity. This is why we collect
royalties. (FYI: All royalty payments collected go directly to ITI, Keith
Johnstone receives none of this money.) If these formats were not trademarked by
Keith Johnstone, someone else could have registered them and taken them for their
own. This is why these are not in the public domain.

We do not dictate to groups how they are to run their company. There are no
strict franchise rules, no high overhead or yearly membership costs and only a
minimal license application fee. Setting royalty payments on a percentage basis
ensures fair pricing across the board, why pay a large amount for something you
only use once a month. This makes starting a company with any of the formats very
reasonable, thus allowing small groups to, quite simply, have the option of
starting of Theatresports group. Allowing a group access to Theatresports gives
them a product which is has been tested and proven worldwide. Theatresports and
the other formats are products that you are given the right to use by being
licensed.

Groups which are licensed can, and do, have some input as to some minor
adjustments to their contracts. Since we hold licenses around the world, it is
impossible for us to rewrite a license for each group, therefore, we have a
section in the license which allows for minor alterations. In order for us to
make these alteration, we find that it is necessary for groups wanting alteration
to request them. We cannot accept any contracts which have been entirely
rewritten by a third party and find it very difficult to accept demands over
requests.

Any group which is looking for support or instruction can, upon request, book a
workshop with Keith Johnstone. If you are interested in a workshop, contact James
at the ITI office and you will be sent information on the cost of booking a
workshop. Or check out Keith's homepage at http://www.ultralink.com/johnstone
for a workshop scheduled in your area. You will also find a history to the
beginnings of Theatresports.

As we all know, with any business whether it is running a theatre, an
administration office, or a store, there will always be some unhappy customers.
This is an inevitable fact of running a business. All we can do is treat them in
a fair and equitable manor and hope for the same in return.

If anyone has any comments regarding this posting please send them to
ad...@intl-theatresports.ab.ca

James Faulkner
General Manager
International Theatresports Institute
tel: (403) 246-5496
homepage: http://www.intl-theatresports.ab.ca
e-mail: ad...@intl-theatresports.ab.ca

As the Theatresports contract is being discussed on the internet, I'll explain
something about the 'ownership' of Theatresports.
1. A contract for the use of an intellectual property is not a pact, is not a
treaty between two parties: it's a commercial document entirely in favour of the
licensee. As James Faulkner says, 'try hiring a car and read the small print on
that contract'.
2. I was told that Theatresports and the name Theatresports had to be
copyrighted or some less benevolent person would do it and take it away from us -
and as you know there have been all sorts of commercial rip-offs..
3. Money was needed for administration and lawyers. A percentage seemed fair
because then the successful groups would be helping the less successful groups (to
a small extent, and why not?). Anyway, at three per cent they'd be getting
something dirt cheap. If a few groups spent all the money, then the accumulated
debt may seem a burden, but they should have anticipated this.
4. I asked myself if I needed a smart car, or nice clothes, and decided that I
didn't, so from the very beginning I've taken no money from Theatresports. Nor
have I ever taken any for Gorilla Theatre, Maestro, etc., (although I'm asking the
I.T.I to separate out the money for the non-Theatresports forms).
5. Some years ago Dennis Cahill (of Loose Moose) approached groups on my behalf
to see if they'd like me to put it in the public domain. We were asked not to do
this, so it pisses me off when I get rude letters from people who think I'm
squandering their money by floating about in the Mediterranean being fed grapes by
Benny Hill teen-agers. They're sure that I'm behaving as any normal person in this
culture would behave, i.e., taking the money and ripping everyone off.
6. Until recently the money's gone to lawyers and to administration (although
none to me), but when we were finally out of the red I formed the International
Theatresports Institute (a non-profit group), plus an advisory group who's mandate
is to find a reasonably fair and non-destructive way to involve all official
Theatresports groups in some kind of democratic process.
7. Groups who signed the contract promised not to reveal it's contents - a normal
commercial request - so why the Hell is this stuff being dragged out onto the
internet? We're trying not to spend money on lawyers, and yet this whole debate is
likely to lead to more legal hassles.
8. I've promised the advisory group that I will sign over all my rights to
Theatresports on, if not before, my 70th birthday, and if I snuff it before then,
that the I.T.I. non-profit organization will inherit all the rights to
Theatresports. At that time the groups can close the organization down and spend
any money in the kitty on fireworks if they want to. But my hope is that they'll
see the advantage of having the I.T.I.

In haste - Keith Johnstone

NOTE - The King Game is excellent but a bit slow. Introduce it the normal way,
but after a while, have the have the players work together in pairs - when the
Servant is killed they change roles.

Great responses. Thanks for taking the time to address public concerns
about the secret license document. The responses are much more in the
moment than the legal contract. You guys should consider adding these
two emails to the application package. It should help remind people
where the license is coming from. It is much more in keeping with the
BRAND of TS. Even an art form acquires a brand after a while.

I will defend the license a bit (without revealing its secret
contents). It is simple and straightforward. The application fee is
very low, the licensing fee is acceptable. The perception is the
problem.

The perception of the license is legendary, in much the same way 'who
invented freeze tag' is legendary. There are stories that abound from
Coast to Coast that scares away potential licencees. I have seen this
happen in several groups that were very capable of putting on excellent
TS shows. Several of these groups are still around and would have been
doing TS for 5 or 10 years in university centers. Both were scared off
by their incorrect perception of 1)legal action 2)frightening paperwork
3)getting nothing in return 4)loss of control of creative process.

None of these are a problem with the present super secret ITI license
document. However they remain a perception. I have yet to see greed get
in the way. I have yet to see intentional theft of intellectual
property get in the way. I have yet to see dyslexia get in the way.
However the perception of a problem does get in the way. We all know
that a license exists, so here are a few things to help fight the
perception problem. This is free marketing advice for free :)

1) To the secret license application add a cover letter from Keith
Johnstone describing his disconnection from any fees, the glowing
benevolence of the institute, the international legal challenges and a
secret hand signal. This letter should be from Keith Johnstone to keep
people from thinking he is being fed peeled grapes on the ocean. (I had
always pictured Mr. Johnstone on an improvised boat eating mimed
grapes). Anyone applying for a TS license already knows these things,
but they have to convince a board or even worse a co-operative of 30
improvisers.

2) When you send back the finalized documents of the secret license
pact add an 8x11.5 license that can be displayed where the audience can
see. "Kensington Heights Theatre is sanctioned to perform TS for 1993"
This first helps by giving the TS troupe something to show for as
opposed to more paperwork after each show. Second the public will also
realize that TS is more than just some artsies doing their own thing,
but a form that world recognized. The people applying for the license
understand the value of the TS name, but they need something physical
to show for their board, improvisers, techies, landlords, and parents.

3) Talk with the big players. They are your best clients. Get them on
side to help promote ITI, and TS. Everyone knows VTSL and STS (I know
nothing about their secret licenses and I do not represent them in any
way). No one in the public knows Loose Moose. Hardly any improvisers
know what ITI is. The big groups are promoting TS, not ITI. It you want
things to continue cut them deals for God sakes. Do what you need to do
to keep the kids playing TS.

A lot more of them do now. Thanks to this discussion.

Sometimes when something like this gets going it is hard to tell if the
you have undertaken the task or the task has undertaken you. The impact
of TS is worldwide and amazing. TS must be one of the most successful
theatre movements ever. You are faced with the complex task of
internationally protecting intellectual property and communicating this
to that are trying to keep theatres afloat. Two very difficult agendas
to mesh. This post comes out of appreciation for the task, love of TS
as a form, and understanding what it is like on the licencee side.
However, if some poor theatre group is struggling the general form of
improv should come before TS.

I have read ACI daily for about 4 or 5 years now. I have never seen a
discussion about the TS secret license. ITI should take advantage of
this great resource and get a sense of what people are thinking.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to my hubris to advise the ITI ;)

NOTE: in the queen game the monarch is on the spot and if she does not
immediately accept the offer she is dethroned.

not in haste

I am intrigued as to why the agreement is confidential. In particular, how
is anyone to decide whether they want to apply for a license, if they
cannot see the agreement they will be entering into beforehand, and you
will not answer any of their questions about it? It seems a bit like,
"Sign here and then we'll let you see what you've signed."

Ollie

> "Sig.n here and then we'll let you see what you've signed."
>
In my experience confidentiallity is standard for most companines that
provide licensing or franchising. If you want to get a McDonald's
franchise they don't just send out the information to anyone.
Typically , they want to know who you are first and then you sign a non-
disclosure (confidentiallity) agreement that prohibits you from
disclosing the company's proprietary information. After you sign the
non-disclosure, then they send you the actual franchise
information/agreement. Once you see the actually agreement you can
still decide you don't want to be a franchise but you are still bound
by the non-disclosure agreement to not reveal any of the information
you were sent.

Sean
--
======= WE COULD BE HEROES =======
http://www.wecouldbeheroes.com <- Our Troupe
http://www.thehideout.org <- Our Theatre
http://www.theatresports.net <- Free TheatreSports Email

> secret stuff

You can find out everything that you need before you sign anything. The
secret license is benign in nature. As Vose said, "if you don't like it
lump it"

This is true. There are also some common domain information about
Mickey Dee franchises. 1) there is an upfront unreturnable fee of
usually 250000 US$. 2) you pay for all site development probably
1000000 US$ in most centers 3)McDee's marketing department picks the
location for you 4)you are buying into a very strong brand that will
automatically have a world wide customer base 5) you will go to their
university 6) you be supported by megabuck worldwide advertising
campaign.

I do not expect to be sued by McDonalds for those approximations.

You can go shop for franchises at www.franchise.com Money is discussed
there and nothing else.

The TS license is about spreading TS around the world and helping it
support itself in doing so. An internet discussion of this could have
been useful.