The Military, Not CBS, Discovered the Abuses at Abu Ghraib

Thursday, May 6, 2004 12:01 a.m.

As President Bush and everyone else in America has said, any abuse of
Iraqi prisoners is "abhorrent" and should be punished. Yet it seems to
us that an overlooked story here, and ultimately the most telling, is
the degree to which the U.S. military is investigating itself and
holding people accountable.

This isn't a popular thought just now, with the media and politicians
in one of their bonfire phases. Every accusation against U.S. troops
is now getting front-page treatment. Like reporters at a free buffet,
Members of Congress are swarming to the TV cameras to declare their
outrage and demand someone's head, usually Donald Rumsfeld's. "System
of abuse" and "cover-up" are being tossed about without any evidence
of either. The goal seems to be less to punish the offenders than to
grab one more reason to discredit the Iraq war.

For a sense of proportion, let's rehearse the timeline here. While
some accusations of abuse go back to 2002 in Afghanistan, the
incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred last
autumn. They came to light through the chain of command in Iraq on
January 13. An Army criminal probe began a day later. Two days after
that, the U.S. Central Command disclosed in a press release that "an
investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee
abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility." By March 20,
Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was able to announce in Baghdad that
criminal charges had been brought against six soldiers in the probe.
By the end of January, meanwhile, Major General Antonio Taguba was
appointed to conduct his separate "administrative" probe of procedures
at Abu Ghraib. It is his report, complete with its incriminating
photos, that is the basis for the past week's news reports. The press
didn't break this story based on months of sleuthing but was served up
the results of the Army's own investigation.

By February, the Secretary of the Army had ordered the service's
inspector general to assess the doctrine and training for detention
operations within all of CentCom. A month after that, another probe
began into Army Reserve training, especially military police and
intelligence. Those reports will presumably also be leaked and
reported on, or at least they will be if they reach negative
conclusions.

This is a cover-up? Unlike the Catholic bishops, some corporate boards
and the editors of the New York Times or USA Today, the military brass
did not dismiss early allegations of bad behavior. Instead, it
established reviews and procedures that have uncovered the very
details that are now used by critics to indict the Pentagon "system."
It has done so, moreover, amid a war against a deadly insurgency in
which interrogation to gain good intelligence is critical to
victory--and to saving American lives.

None of this is to dismiss or rationalize the abuse reports.
Accountability has to run beyond the soldiers immediately responsible
and up the Army and intelligence chains of command. The Abu Ghraib
procedures were clearly inadequate to a situation in which
interrogators were given so much control over the fates of individual
prisoners. Especially in a war on terror that will be long and require
effective interrogation, this is unacceptable.

Reprimands have already been issued and careers ended, but courts
martial can't be ruled out. President Bush's explanation to Arab media
yesterday may help our public image, especially given that their own
governments rarely admit mistakes. But the best way to impress Iraqis
about U.S. purposes is to show that Americans guilty of abuse are
being punished, and with more than letters of reprimand.

To start impugning the entire Army and Pentagon, however, is both
wrong and dangerous. The majority of American soldiers are
professional, disciplined and are risking their lives to win a war.
(Note to those who want to revive the draft: If this could happen in
today's highly trained volunteer force, imagine the risks in Senator
Chuck Hagel's Army of conscripts.)

Another bizarre notion is that Abu Ghraib happened because the
Pentagon decided to hold "enemy combatants" under other than "prisoner
of war" status. Those detainees are still given Geneva Convention
treatment, as well as visits by the Red Cross. The Pentagon has
avoided formal Geneva Convention status because it doesn't want al
Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to be able to hide behind "name, rank and
serial number." As terrorists who attacked civilians and didn't wear a
uniform, they also don't deserve the privileges of real soldiers. In
any case, the soldiers who posed in those Abu Ghraib photos were
clearly too thick to know any of this.

The military has its faults and bad actors, but over the decades it
has shown itself to be one of America's most accountable institutions.
The Abu Ghraib episode is another test of its fortitude. But the
political class would do well to heed Democratic Senator Joe
Lieberman, who said yesterday that "this immoral behavior in no way
eliminates the justice of our cause in Iraq."
=====

Thank CBS to let us in on the story. Bush also found out through CBS.
That should tell you how high a priority it was in the Administration.
Bush goes on air to Arab news and does not apologies. Takes him to
listen to 24 hours around the world news cast to realize since he *is*
the Commander in Chief and that the buck stops at his desk he better
apologies. He is a man that identifies himself with the moral majority
and does not have an inborn sense of responsibility. Takes him 24 hours
of around the world outrage to realize he better apologies. Tell me
again he is better suited as a Commander in Chief.

You've got marbles in your mouth. They've probably
rolled down from your brain.

The red cross has been trying for a year to get someone's attention.

--
TheTruthHurts.

>Bush goes on air to Arab news and does not apologize. Takes him to listen to

Chief and that the buck stops at his desk he better apologize. He is a man that

The part about apologies and the President we'd better leave alone for the
moment, considering how worked up some people are getting today, but that first
sentence of yours is important and correct: to investigate is one thing, to
disclose that there exists an accusation to be investigated is another, and to
disclose the results of an investigation is yet a third.

Not very hard to make those distinctions, one wouldn't think, but lots of
folks don't seem to be able to manage it, and not all of them are registered
Republicans.

BGKB. Happy days.
--JHM

As the army report points out, the head of Guantanamo Bay prison facility,
last year, 1 month before the most egregious abuses took place, recommended
that guards become involved in prepairing detainees for interrogation. The
report points out that while this recommendation was neither made officially
to the commander of the Iraqi prison system, nor was it officially followed
at the command level, it WAS followed at lower levels (which might certainly
have contributed to the abuses).

The army report further points out that the recommendation was made based on
the Gitmo facility model, which is meant to deal specifically with
terrorists, while the Iraqi facilities had a 60% release rate without anyone
ever being charged, so obviously the Gitmo model didn't apply. Both Army
reports on abuses said it was a bad idea to involve guards in preparing
detainees for interrogation.

Guess who is now in charge of the Iraqi prison system? The guy who made the
recommendations to involve the guards in the interrogation process that the
Army report said was a bad idea: Major General Miller, former head of the
Guantanamo Bay prison facility in Cuba.

Which, by the way, is now being investigated for its own set of abuses
(finally).

The Army's report SAYS it was a bad idea to follow Major General Miller's
suggestion and they have now put Major General Miller in charge of the Iraqi
Prison system.

The Army was doing its job. The Red Cross, I'm sure, had
all the best intentions but it was the Army itself that caught
the incidents of abuse, investigated them, and did the report that
became the fish head that all the stray cats in the media are
fighting over.

And yet, Bush is surprised that these things are happening and angry that
its turning out to be a propaganda coup for radical Islam.
What? Bush wasn't paying attention to these reports? Rice, Rumsfeld and
Cheney weren't?

Well, the Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations have been going
around Wsshington knocking on doors for months.

And getting the usual meeting with a lowly aide, and the usual, "your
fifteen minues are up, thank you for your imput" bull.

Bush, the GOP leadership of House and Senate and Bush's White House
loserrs ahve all, as usual, ignored humanitarian groups from Amnesty
International to the Red Cross until things blew up into a major crisis.

As usual.

They don't care, never did, never will.
A vote for the GOP is a vote for more of the same.
They didn't care when the first investigations in Afghanistan
showed problems, or back when Helms and other bastards were sneering
that the Maryknoll nuns killed by El Saladoran soldiers probably
had it coming.
Or when that training pamphlet instructing our allies
how to torture people surfaced.
or when the Supreme Court passed an opinion it was OK for
the state departmemnt to know a man was being tortured by the Guatemalan
army but not to inform his wife as to what was going on as she desperately
made inquiries. These bastards have been ignoring Red Cross, Amnesty
International, and other organizations for decades now.

Just don't care. Incapable of caring.

And now yabbling and farting that somebody should have told them.
and its Rumsfeld's fault.

No . It is the GOP's fault.

Since Reagan supported the genocidal Guatemalan war on
Mayan Indians wholeheartedly, with stout GOP support,
the entire GOP has never bothered to take any reports
of US policies or winking at policies of torture and political murder, if
it wasn't something that caused an international crisis.
And then just to get by.

Now. What else is happening that should not that
outfits like Amnesty Imnternational and Human Rights Watch
are trying to tell Congressional leaders and can't get them to
pay attention like they haven't since Reagan slimed into Washington?

Equally guilty are Bill Frist, leader of the Senate, and Dennis Hastert,
leader of the House. They just don't have time to pay attention to Human
Rights organizations.
The have homophobic gay marriage amendmentys to pass and
money to raise for elections.
Important things.

--
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun
in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to
Canada. So I chose to better myself and learn to fly airplanes."
- George W. Bush May 1984 to the Houston Chronicle

Cheerful Charlie

Not the point stu pid

The military, specifically Dr. Strangeglove rumsfeldt didn't tell
anyone

That's what CBS outed, you dumb shit.

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You stupid shit

The army WAS the one doing the abuse

How could they not "catch it"??

And you've got his dick up your ass, Mcfly

CBS publicized what "the military knew" and wasn't telling anyone.

Oh yeah, it's just a TV stunt, and the military did their job, right?

Is that why your president is sucking up to Arabic media and kings to save
your country's credibility and your failed war?

Because they have sheilded themselves thoroughly from all
reality?

One wonders why nobody in the Leadership of the House or Senate
noticed either, what with the Red Cross and other human rights
organizations apparently complaining widely.

What else is going on that needs somebody to wake up?

--

Apparently, the news broke on CBS on the same day that Rumsfeld was
supposedly keeping Congress up-to-date on the situation in Iraq.
Should Congress have to set up an entirely separate government just to
learn what they should be being informed of from the executive branch?

--Jeff

--
Let me make the superstitions of a nation
and I care not who makes its laws or its
songs either. -- Mark Twain

The trouble with the world is that the
stupid are cocksure and the intelligent
are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

Those who do not learn from history are
doomed to repeat it. --George Santayana

Unthinking respect for authority is the
greatest enemy of truth. --Albert Einstein

Freedom's just another word for nothing
left to lose. --Kris Kristofferson

I'm sure that if there were demand for such a thing, the private
sector would respond and fill that demand.

--

chris...@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt

The news didn't break on CBS; the photographs broke on
CBS:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005044
=====
[T]he incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred

=====

Your moral confusion, combined with the bitterness
created by that confusion, appears to have led you
down the spiral staircase into degenerative solipsism.

When you get to the bottom you'll find creatures like
Lochner, who were born there, and Hanson, who fell
there because of mental illness. You will have made
the descent of your own free will, however.

From today's news:
1432 GMT - The Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross
published a 24-page confidential report May 7 that details "serious
violations" of Iraqi prisoners that were so widespread the report
concludes the abuses were tolerated by commanders of the U.S.-led
coalition in Iraq. Some of the abuses were "tantamount to torture,"
the report states. Red Cross officials said the document -- which was
supposed to be confidential -- would be issued in its entirely, after
someone in the organization leaked it to The Wall Street Journal.

Hanson said he had depression. That wouldn't inhibit him
from making rational choices. Even if it caused a change
in his behavior, wouldn't you expect it to periodically
improve between episodes?

=====
EE

Latine loqui coactus sum.

[un-snip]

>from making rational choices. E[..]

I see you two little so-called "conservative" whiners are
thumping your tiny hairless chests with your usual ad hom's
regarding how low you regard us 'weasels'..

--Keep telling on yourselves, cowards..

The Army report was finished on March 3rd and the first
charges were filed later that month, 47 days before the Red
Cross published its report:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005044
=====

=====

Apparently the news broke to Rumsfeld and Bush on CBS - at leas that's
what THEY said - are you saying they are lying again?

And these people would be furiously denying that any such things ever
happened if the photos had not been made public by CBS and others.
They are the same people who deny the reality of various atrocities
described by John Kerry and countless other Vietnam Vets in Vietnam.
If there aren't pictures, they will just deny.

The photographs broke on CBS. That created the media
frenzy after the fish heads. The Army's own report, which
included these photos, was finished on March 3. The first
soldiers were charged on March 20. It was being handled
effectively within the military at that point. CBS turned
it into the present opportunity for American self-flaggelation
you're watching now.

The conduct in the prison was wrong and evil, and the
investigation of it began in January, was announced at that
time, and the report was filed a month and a half later.

It's of absolutely no surprise to me that no one slapped
that report down on Bush's desk and said "take a look
at this."

continue arguing semantics - your support for the situation is obvious.

~~~~~~~

"US Army officials said two Iraqi prisoners were killed by US soldiers last
year and 10 other deaths among 25 in Iraq and Afghanistan are being
investigated."

Iraq prisoner abuses 'widespread'

Photo images of United States soldiers abusing and humiliating prisoners in
Iraq may be just the tip of the iceberg and only a non-military inquiry
will expose the full extent of the problem, human rights groups say.

In hundreds of interviews with former detainees over the past nine months,
rights groups say a clear pattern of abuse has emerged.

The vast majority of prisoners say they were beaten, hooded, deprived of
sleep and often stripped.

In some isolated cases the abuse was much worse, they say, with detainees
sodomised or sexually assaulted in ways similar to the pictures of abuse
that have emerged over the past week.

One international rights group, Christian Peacemaker Teams, which has been
operating in Iraq on and off since late 2002, estimated that around 80 per
cent of former detainees it interviewed had suffered abuse of one form or
another.

The US military estimates it has detained around 40,000 Iraqis since taking
over the country last year, although most have been released. Around 10,000
remain in custody.

"Iraqis feel that they have been treated as sub-human by the Americans
pretty much since the beginning," Stewart Vriesinga, a coordinator for
Christian Peacemakers, said.

"If that is what is finally coming to light, then what we're seeing now is
probably just the tip of the iceberg."

Mr Vriesinga said his organisation had taken depositions from Iraqis who
said they had been stripped, made to pull their buttocks apart and been
kicked in the rectum.

In other instances he said female soldiers had detained Iraqis at
checkpoints and forced them to expose themselves and simulate fellatio.

Some detainees have even been killed, rights groups and the US military
have confirmed.

Mr Vriesinga told of an instance last winter when two young men who broke a
curfew were forced to jump off a dam into the Tigris river north of
Baghdad. One drowned. Others have been shot.

US Army officials said two Iraqi prisoners were killed by US soldiers last
year and 10 other deaths among 25 in Iraq and Afghanistan are being
investigated.

"Are Iraqis being treated with respect and dignity and having their rights
respected? Certainly not," Mr Vriesinga said.

"There are very few Iraqis left who feel they have any rights that match
the rights of an American citizen," he said.

"The US military is creating enemies by the thousand."

Amnesty International has said repeatedly over the past year that US
soldiers were abusing detainees, first calling for an investigation last
July.

The rights group said it hoped the pictures shown over the past week of
military police in Abu Ghraib prison forcing naked and hooded detainees to
simulate sex acts and other humiliations would add pressure for a full,
non-military probe.

"We are demanding an independent, public investigation into this issue
because everyone, Iraqis and the American people, have a right to know,"
said Nicole Choueiry, Amnesty's Middle East spokeswoman.

"The kind of investigation we're talking about is much more than what the
military is so far conducting on itself.

"I don't know what the military is capable of, but there's no way the full
truth is going to come out of their investigations."

The new commander of Abu Ghraib, Major General Geoffrey Miller, apologised
on Wednesday to all Iraqis on behalf of America and its military, saying
the acts perpetrated at the jail were "appalling and embarrassing" and left
him chagrined.

So far, US President George W Bush has steered clear of any apology, saying
only that he found the images abhorrent.

As pressure grows on the US administration to tackle the issue more
aggressively, the Geneva-based International Committee for the Red Cross
said it had urged Washington repeatedly to take "corrective action" at Abu
Ghraib, a prison once notorious under Saddam Hussein.

But Iraq's acting Human Rights Minister suggested those outraged by the
acts should also maintain perspective, saying no one should forget what
happened under Saddam, whose son once had some 2,000 people executed at Abu
Ghraib in one day.

-- Reuters

--
TheTruthHurts.

And it was all kept hush-hush until the photos were published. The
military didn't do that.

Doesn't surprise me, either. Note how important the issue is - there
are congressional hearings on it now, and yesterday Bush went on
Arabic TV to say "I'm sorry" (and you KNOW that was not a minor thing
for him). This is CLEARLY a big deal - it will have repercussions
around the world with America's reputation, with the hatred for
America in Arab countries, and throughout the US military. Yet, as
you say, it's not surprising that Bush didn't even know - nor would he
have even cared, had it not become public knowledge.

Semantics? Oy vey.

The investigation was announced in mid-January and the
criminal charges were announced on March 20, to the
world. The abuse was not kept secret. It was the photographs
splashed out that began this furor.

It's pretty clear to even a casual observer that
self-reported depression is only a collateral
matter.

But I've exhausted this subject with you previously.
Refer to those earlier exchanges.

> Semantics? Oy vey.
>

you are arguing about who knew what and when.

semantics

3. the meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language
form

it's not the point.

--
TheTruthHurts.

No, you idiot, I'm telling you that the Army
was doing its job with respect to this matter.

and i'm telling you that it's a year late and $200 billion short.

--
TheTruthHurts.

Yes. I heard the Winter Soldier hearings on Pacifica many years ago.
nothing but denial, and nothing was done.

The head of the International Red Cross reports that complaints
were delivered directly to Condoleeza Rice also. Yet another Rice abject
failure. Rice obviouly either zoned out and did not understand the
seriousness of this all, or did care, or decided it was not important to
persue, nor inform Bush about this. Yet she is getting off scott free
over this issue.
She obviously misjudged the fall out of the emergence of this as an issue
in the Arab world on top of all the other problems we have, and THAT
as one of THE top advisors to Bush is inexcusable.

She needs to go also, we cannot afford more screwups.

The Bush adminstration is not capable of any competent actions about
anything anywhere.

Please. Don't hurt yourself.

too much truth, hey marty...

--
TheTruthHurts.

He did NOT say he was sorry. He said he was disgusted etc, but NOT "I am
sorry". He left that to Scott McClelland his spokes creature who
afterwards trotted out and said the president was sorry.
And this is in itself an issue now in the Arab world, that Bush is
incapable of saying "I am sorry", personally, and look to mean it.
It is seen as a perfunctory not quite real pro forma type apology.

Cheerful Charlie

--

Self-flattery will get you exactly where you
are -- quite stupid.

we're in a massive quagmire, based on lies, draining our funds, as innocent
people are killed, humiliated, and otherwise made to feel very, very, very
uncomfortable - all in our names.

nothing flattering about it.

--
TheTruthHurts.

That's an idiot's view of these events. There is no quagmire,
that's a recycled term from Vietnam meant to elicit
that drama. There were no lies: every intelligence report --
beginning with those from UNSCOM and UNMOVIC --
documented unaccounted for WMD stocks to which the
Iraqis had admitted. Our funds are hardly drained; we spend
too little, not too much on defense. Innocent people always
die in wars, but that is not the determining factor as to whether
wars will or will not be fought. And a horrible, repulsive, criminal
regime has been removed from the middle of the fever
swamp in the Middle East. That is the beginning of a sea
change there to something resembling modernity for the
Arab world.

You gimp around here with that stupid "Smirk" ID
and talk like a man with a paper asshole, and repeat
wild bullshit and then say "the Truth hurts." If you
ever got within ten thousand yards of the truth,
your peanut-sized brain would explode.

you continue to post bullshit that has been refuted and discredited ad
nauseum, and tell me i don't know the truth?

you apparently couldn't grasp the concept if it had sirens and wrote you a
ticket.

--
TheTruthHurts.

Like I said, if you got within ten thousand yards of the

Bullshit, note the dates:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/19/sprj.nitop.iraq.intl/index.html

Monday, January 19, 2004 Posted: 5:35 PM EST (2235 GMT)
...

Other developments:
• An Army criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi
prisoners by U.S. soldiers is focusing on reports of illegal treatment
at Abu Gharib prison in Baghdad....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/02/24/sprj.nirq.main/index.html

Tuesday, February 24, 2004 Posted: 4:17 PM EST (2117 GMT)
...
Other developments
...
• The U.S. military said Monday that 17 military personnel have been
relieved of duty pending the results of a criminal investigation into
alleged abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad...

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 Posted: 10:06 PM EDT (0206 GMT)
...
Other developments
Six U.S. soldiers have been charged with abusing prisoners at Iraq's
Abu Ghraib prison...

Jim

He did say "I'm sorry". You're correct that he didn't say it the
first day, during the TV interviews - I misspoke. He said it the next
day to Jordanian King Abdullah II:

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/07/article01.shtml
WASHINGTON, May 7 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - As his Secretary
of Defense Donald Rumsfeld faces growing pressures to resign over the
U.S. military abuse of Iraqi detainees, U.S. President George W. Bush
apologized for the scandal for the first time.

"I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and
the humiliation suffered by their families," Bush said Thursday, May
6, shedding his customary reluctance to apologize or acknowledge
mistakes.

"I told him (Abdullah) I was equally sorry that people who have been
seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of
America," Bush said after talks with Jordanian King Abdullah II,
according to Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Believe me, I was very surprised to hear Bush say "sorry", given his
famous refusal to ever do so in the past. But he did say it, and in
the interests of the Truth, we should acknowledge it.

yes, i know you said it.

--
TheTruthHurts.

As Rumsfeld just said before congress - it's a whole different thing
seeing the pictures. The Army had those pictures, but did not release
them (and probably never would have - in fact, they have a lot more of
them, and we'll see if they even release them NOW, with all the
pressure on them).

General Myers and Secy Rumsfeld both said today in the hearings that
the release of the pictures has created a number of huge problems for
the US - including sullying the US reputation, angering the Arabs and
making the control of Iraq more difficult. Given that they saw the
results of releasing the pictures to be very detrimental in a lot of
ways, I think we can safely assume that if they could decide to keep
those pictures under wraps, they would do so.

It is also well-known in Europe that 3,000 Talaban prisoners were locked
in truck containers and left in the desert to die. US complicity has not
been established and the UN has been slow to investigate because the
area where the bodies were dumped is a dangerous place.

So far. This ain't over yet.

Bush and company have consistently been completely and arrogantly deaf
and dumb to the Arab world's sensibilities and concerns. While I
don't find much to recommend the Arab world (they are FAR, FAR too
religious for me - hell, I don't even like the Christians in the US
because they're too religiously fanatical), it is inexcusable for the
US foreign policy people to be so ignorant of foreign peoples.

We cannot afford the screwups that the Bush administration has ALREADY
committed.

Sure seems that way.

Why should they release them? Does the medical examiner splash
pictures of murder victims? The pictures are inflammatory. The
crimes are real, and being addressed, and CBS took an open
wound and stuck a hot poker into it and turned it into a
carnival of self-flaggelation for the United States.

BTW, McFly - Rumsfeld just said (I have the TV on right now, watching
the hearings), that the Army report about these cases was NOT released
to the public - he said it was a secret report that was illegally
leaked to the press.

So, once again, are you calling Rumsfeld a liar - again?

If you were POTUS and your people kept such a political hot
potato from you, what would you do to them? Imagine learning
about it for the first time at a press conference.

I don't know about you, but I'd be massively pissed.

=====
EE

Latine loqui coactus sum.

What's the point of 'America' feigning shock and horror at IRaqi
prisoners being anally raped? Every morning, we wake up to shock
jocks laughing about prisonors in the US prison system being tortured
and raped. It's something the average american laughs about and
delights in. They are sick, mentally ill monsters for the most part,
who feel no sincere regret about such things, and the torture and
humiliation of Iraqi will be the butt of many jokes to come, the
source of much delight and pleasure to all Americans.

So you agree with the SCOTUS decision against Favish?

[snip]

Some confusion seems to exist about why the report was classified...

Exactly. That's what the military thinks, as well. Why should they
even release ANYthing to do with these incidents and any
investigations they may undertake? Why should Nixon release the
tapes?

So stop trying to argue that the military did disclose all this to the
public - it's bullshit and you just admitted you KNOW it's bullshit.

And that's why we have a free press - because we can't trust the
government to do what's right.

Yes, they are. They are evidence - they are what makes this case so
important and so controversial. So naturally you and the military
would like to stonewall it and cover it up.

Not well enough. Not until public pressure made it so. At the very
least, if the military didn't have a moral responsibility to release
the info to the voters in this democracy, they DID have an
unmistakable responsibility to release the information (including the
photos) to the US congress. And at LEAST to the Secretary of Defense
- and to the President.

Bullshit - they exposed some very bad crimes, and they exposed the
government trying to cover it all up.

No.

The soldiers who committed these crimes are being
investigated, charged, and will be punished. That has
been happening since January.

In the Favish case it was a matter of evidence being
hidden so that the question of a crime could not even
be investigated.

What an asshole. These photographs are evidence *in*
ongoing investigations and prosecutions. They will be used
at court martials. Leaking them to be shown to the public
has taken a limited abuse of authority in Iraqi prisons
and held it up to the world as an indictment of the military
and the United States.

That's not a good thing. Justice in these matters did not
require a self-flagellating media circus, with herds of
cats chasing fish heads.

I didn't say that the report was released to the public.
I said that charges against soldiers subject to the probe
was made public by General Kimmitt in Baghdad on
March 20. And the charges were for abuse of prisoners
in the Iraqi prison.

To what is his depression collateral?

"Thrill me with your acumen."

I don't accept excuses for someone who chooses to be a pathetic
propagandist--not from him and not from you. As far as I'm
concerned, he is 100% responsible for his actions.

As for Lochner, I might have agreed with you about him if I
hadn't seen him act like a civilized, rational human being
for a few days after 9/11. That demonstrated that he does
have the capacity for self-restraint, but chooses not to
exercise it.

>But I've exhausted this subject with you previously.
>Refer to those earlier exchanges.

I don't recall those discussions involving Hanson, nor anything
pertinent to the matter at hand.

Well, go refresh your recollection. We had an extensive
discussion on the subject. And I'm not going to go
through it again, some probably three years later.

Especially since any "mental illness" concerned here was one fabricated
whole hog by YOU, Marty. A practice you've indulged in with at least half a
dozen of your opponents as I've demonstrated with your own posts many times.

If you think the Army would EVER have released the photos, you're even
dumber than I think you are. And if you think this is a "limited
abuse of authority in Iraqi prisons", you're even dumber than I think
the Bush administration is.

The American public deserves to know the truth. And so do the Iraqis.

As an aside: If there aren't pictures, in the cases you cite and
elsewhere, what would you be willing to accept as proof? Would
oral testimony be sufficient? In other words, why should we believe
Kerry -- or anyone else -- without something more than simply their
statement?

You're right. We did discuss him. For some reason I was
thinking that we had only talked about other people. But
I just looked it up on Google.

Mea culpa.

We're not likely to change each others' minds now, so I agree that
there's no point going over that again.

However, even if you are right about him having borderline
personality disorder, I still don't accept that as an excuse.
He can choose not to be such a lying sack of shit--that much is
obvious.

If he finds it easier to behave like a decent, rational grownup
by taking medication and getting counseling, it's his responsibility
to take those steps. If he chooses not to, he can go to hell for
all I care.

The Red Cross has been complaining about prison conditions since
Afghanistan in 2001.
It takes the military more than 2 years to admit doing wrong,
and then it will punish a couple grunts for what is military policy.
Real impressive.

We're discussing one prison in Iraq, which has been under
U.S. control for exactly one year, is one of four prisons
in Iraq, with one unit involved in the abuse.

Get control of that wet pussy of yours.

The problem is obviously much more widespread, Marty.

Get control over your vulgarity. You're not doing your case any good by
advertising that you're a slob.

... according to the government.

But his death was investigated, several times, according to the
government.

Either you trust the government to conduct these investigations
while keeping photographic evidence secret, or you don't.
Otherwise, you're just picking and choosing according to
partisan calculations.

The military *announced* the investigation in mid-January.
An extensive report was finished on March 3. The first
charges against six soldiers were announced on March 20.

>Bagel Rye <anon...@republican.cowardice.con> whimpered:
>>
>>In article <7zNmc.38188$mX.13...@twister.nyc.rr.com>
>>Fartin McShillips <jour...@nyc.rr.com> whined about:
>
>[un-snip]
>
>> >Your moral confusion, combined with the bitterness
>> >created by that confusion, appears to have led you
>> >down the spiral staircase into degenerative solipsism.

>>from making rational choices. E[..]
>
>I see you two little so-called "conservative" whiners are
>thumping your tiny hairless chests with your usual ad hom's
>regarding how low you regard us 'weasels'..

But ya gotta admit

With their mouths stuffed with weasels dicks, they sure make funny
sounds.............

========================================================================================================

>From: danaraf...@worldnet.att.net (danaraf...@worldnet.att.net)Subject: golden/brown showers

>View this article only

>Newsgroups: alt.personals.fetish, alt.sex.fetish.watersportsDate: 1997/03/30

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>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------

For seven months, Tiger Force soldiers moved across the Central
Highlands, killing scores of unarmed civilians - in some cases
torturing and mutilating them - in a spate of violence never revealed
to the American public.

They dropped grenades into underground bunkers where women and
children were hiding - creating mass graves - and shot unarmed
civilians, in some cases as they begged for their lives.

They frequently tortured and shot prisoners, severing ears and scalps
for souvenirs.

A review of thousands of classified Army documents, National Archives
records, and radio logs reveals a fighting unit that carried out the
longest series of atrocities in the Vietnam War - and commanders who
looked the other way.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73162957116918&Avis=TO&Dato=20031022&Kategori=SRTIGERFORCE&Lopenr=110190168&Ref=AR

--
Let me make the superstitions of a nation
and I care not who makes its laws or its
songs either. -- Mark Twain

The trouble with the world is that the
stupid are cocksure and the intelligent
are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

Those who do not learn from history are
doomed to repeat it. --George Santayana

Unthinking respect for authority is the
greatest enemy of truth. --Albert Einstein

Freedom's just another word for nothing
left to lose. --Kris Kristofferson

You may have been able to get away with describing the abuses as
"limited" before the pictures came out.

The pictures show extreme depravity. Apparently there are quite
a number of them. They weren't a couple pranks in bad taste,
which is what I'd think of if I heard the phrase "limited abuse
of authority" without knowing anything else.

I thought it was a good thing that Saddam was deposed, that the
common people would start being treated better by those in
authority. It disgusts me that soldiers from my country would
so flagrantly disregard the values inherent in the role of
liberators.

It's unfortunate that a few miscreants sullied the image of the
decent Allied troops, who make up the vast majority. But I
blame them, not the people who made the pictures public.

I'd fire the bastards responsible. Immediately.
Bush, well, he won't do any such thing despite massively being mislead
about al Qaeda's role in Iraq, WMDs, Niger uranium, whats going
on in prison's and much, much more.

As long as that turd is in office, we will see a stream of incompetence
without end. He's clueless and the people he hires are cluless.

--
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun
in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to
Canada. So I chose to better myself and learn to fly airplanes."
- George W. Bush May 1984 to the Houston Chronicle

Cheerful Charlie

The government investigated Foster, more than once. They made
announcements and reports.

You have an unwarranted faith in government to police itself.

> On Fri, 07 May 2004 12:02:16 -0400, wbarwell
> <wbar...@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
>
>>SemiScholar wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 07 May 2004 16:39:47 GMT, "Martin McPhillips"
>>> <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>

*******************

>>
>>
>>He did NOT say he was sorry. He said he was disgusted etc, but NOT "I am
>>sorry".
>
> He did say "I'm sorry". You're correct that he didn't say it the
> first day, during the TV interviews - I misspoke. He said it the next
> day to Jordanian King Abdullah II:
>
>
> http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/07/article01.shtml
> WASHINGTON, May 7 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - As his Secretary
> of Defense Donald Rumsfeld faces growing pressures to resign over the
> U.S. military abuse of Iraqi detainees, U.S. President George W. Bush
> apologized for the scandal for the first time.
>
> "I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and
> the humiliation suffered by their families," Bush said Thursday, May
> 6, shedding his customary reluctance to apologize or acknowledge
> mistakes.
>
> "I told him (Abdullah) I was equally sorry that people who have been
> seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of
> America," Bush said after talks with Jordanian King Abdullah II,
> according to Agence France-Presse (AFP).
>

Mein Gott! The little bastard did something right for a change!

It took him a couple of tries to get out there and say it publically, but
he did! Give the man a bag of pretzels!

>> He left that to Scott McClelland his spokes creature who
>>afterwards trotted out and said the president was sorry.
>>And this is in itself an issue now in the Arab world, that Bush is
>>incapable of saying "I am sorry", personally, and look to mean it.
>>It is seen as a perfunctory not quite real pro forma type apology.
>
> Believe me, I was very surprised to hear Bush say "sorry", given his
> famous refusal to ever do so in the past. But he did say it, and in
> the interests of the Truth, we should acknowledge it.

I suspect he did because there was a lot of dismissive
commentary over his failure in his first speech, leaving the
supposed apolgy to McClelland to make.

I never heard Kerry say any of those things. But I read them in just
about every book of first-person eyewitness accounts about the war
that I've ever read. First-person memoirs. And there are so many of
them that these things were definitely not isolated incidents.

> news:Xns94E26A5D3...@130.133.1.4...
>> Martin McPhillips wrote:
>>
>> > Semantics? Oy vey.
>>
>> you are arguing about who knew what and when.
>>
>> semantics

Looking at the fact this crap was ongoing and is far more wide spread
than a lot of people want to admit, I'd say it was the usual lick and a
promise inadequate stuff that is usual in such cases.

Not good enough.

Scene of crime photos are high grade pornography and that is worth a
mountain of treasure. US police agencies are always selling the
material.

They have even given snuff videos to cable broadcasters. It is
extremely sick stuff dressed up as a reality 'cop show'.

You don't think the Arab fighters thought their sisters and wives were
being sexually abused to make the other prisoners talk? You think all
those translators and Iraqi workers kept their mouths shut about that?

I think they told the fighters on the outside what the US were doing
to their female relatives. Why else should the jail be full of women?
Was there a Burka suicide AK-47 Commando which CBS and CNN failed to
report upon?

--bks

The "story" was published to the world in February by the military.
The media choose to ignore it thinking it was boring. Its only the
photos that are new. Admit it. You are drooling over the photos.
You don't care at all about the story that has been public since
February. This proves that you are a pervert and a voyeur.

Note something important. Bush never says "I'm sorry" into the camera. He
reports it as something he did: "I told him...." With everything that has
happened he still can't do a simple apology.

Nope. They didn't publish the story in February. What they did was
to announce that there were afew people under investigation for
abusing prisoners. They did NOT describe that abuse, and they did NOT
describe how widespread the problem is.

As Rumsfeld said in his testimony - seeing the photos is a whole
different thing that hearing that there are some soldiers being
investigated - or even court-martialed.

Note that Rumsfeld himself thought little of the whole issue when he
had merely heard that there was some investigation being carried out.
But when he saw the pictures, he claims to have been sickened by them
and has testified in front of congress about it and has apologized on
behalf of the US government for the activities and has even vowed to
make restitution to the victims. And there are serious calls for him
to resign or be impeached. He may very well lose his job over this.

That's a WHOLE lot different - all because what the Army "published to
the world" in February was NOT the whole picture. The photos make a
HUGE difference. They are the proof of the extent of the crimes - and
according to Rumsfeld, we ain't seen nothing yet.

This story hasn't been public. This is a whole new story. What the
military "published" in February was nothing. Even Rumsfeld said
under oath that the story was not published by the military, it was a
secret document that was illegally leaked to the press.

And making that document secret may have been illegal in the first place.
Military regs say that you can't use "secret" to hide crimes.

Wow - whole six versus the ICRC's "serious violations" of Iraqi prisoners

commanders of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq?!!!

Are you trying to say that six soldiers took over a thousand photos of their
crimes?

In one of the released photos there are 8 americans in the frame.

There's a serious discrepancy there....