Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Wikilobby campaign

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The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

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WikiLobbying campaign organized offsite by political pressure group

The lobby group Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America has apparently organized more than fifty editors via a mailing list to correct what it sees as bias against Israel. The list archives are here.

So are we going to do anything about this? Or are we going to declare the source an "attack site" and make wild accusations against everyone who brings it up? <eleland/talkedits> 14:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Israel is an article that gets thousands of editors' attention already, both good and bad, so I doubt 50 more would make a big dent in things even if they were rabid POV warriors, which let's not assume. They may even improve the articles. If they do not, we can take action then. If CAMERA starts getting too much non-neutral editing, we can always semi-protect it and require rigid sourcing. Neıl ☎ 14:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
There is one "rapid POV warrior" who is almost single-handedly affecting numerous articles on the subject by a combination of wikilawyering and attrition. Unfortunately no-one seems willing to do anything about him. пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Noting in passing that any group with the words "truth", "fairness" or "accuracy" in its name almost always stands for the exact opposite - funny old world. Guy (Help!) 14:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It's highly doubtful that there are "thousands" of editors working even on a big article like Israel, let alone on the articles which were specifically targeted, such as AoIA and Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus. Even five editors working rationally in co-ordination could achieve massive changes to such articles, let alone fifty. And that's if we charitably assume that CAMERA wouldn't use their massive funding and thousands of members to create undetectable sock puppet accounts. They (including somebody with the same name and writing style as User:Zeq) were talking about creating accounts to edit unrelated topic areas, getting them promoted to admins, and then using them as "uninvolved admins" to ban people per the Arab-Israeli arbitration ruling. This is pretty serious. <eleland/talkedits> 14:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Hopefully this revelation will put an end to the arguments about CAMERA being a strictly NPOV source. Statements such as "One or more of you who want to take this route should stay away from any Israel realted articles for month until they interact in a positive way with 100 wikipedia editors who would be used later to vote you as an administrator." are quite worrying. I wonder if zeqzeq2 is any relation to our own User:Zeq... пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
According to this article, he's one and the same. pedrito - talk - 21.04.2008 14:44
P.S. As somebody who works hard trying to keep these articles WP:NPOV, this really, really sucks. pedrito - talk - 21.04.2008 14:46
OK let's look at this in context, Most of what is in that document is entirely non-problematically - "stick to wikipolicies, make sure you have a policy reason for removing material you think is bias, edit in a rational manner etc". That's fine, but what's worrying is the suggestion that the end game should be that some of them because admins who don't edit those articles so that they can then dive in and lock pages as "uninvolved" (and I guess take orders off-site about what articles they should be "uninvolved" on). There is a list of articles that shouldn't be touched to start with and it's noted at the end of the list that about one article in particular - be carefully as this will get you in direct fight with all the muslims there. for now I don't touch this any more until we have maybe 20 editors who can fight and two "uninvolved" admins on our side --87.112.70.168 (talk) 14:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree that not all the suggestions proferred are entirely evil, at least when taken at face value. That is a sign that Wikipedia's core policies really do tend to channel people into the right mindset. However, the e-mails also reveal that conscious POV-pushers are well aware of the defects in our policies. For starters, the whole "uninvolved admin" trope has gotten way out of hand, and effectively undermined NPOV. If you actually know enough about a topic area to recognize stealth POV pushing, you're almost certainly involved in that topic area. As a result, subtle and well-crafted frauds absolutely plague our Israel-Palestine pages. <eleland/talkedits> 15:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
....it would be best to note on the discussion page that 'This sentence violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy, since the description of Israel's policies as 'oppressive' is an opinion. In addition, it is often noted by Middle East experts that one of the reasons Palestinians decide to become suicide bombers is hate education and glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society ...' Sorry, that is evil, regardless of the fact that its technically bang-on and something I might post in support of. Its evil because its a Wikilaw school. Read the last sentence: they're being taught to misrepresent sources, to weasel their way around, to take advantage of assumptions of good faith. Notice the avoidance of which experts - not academic experts, you can bet. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) We can't crack down hard enough on groups like this. I'd support immediate indef topic bans from all Israel-related articles for any editor demonstrably associated with activities like that. No warnings. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Pro-Israel editors are as bad as anti-Israel editors. An indef ban seems fine here. It's WP:CANVASSing, to me. Grsz11 15:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, it would appear that we have one. I might try and infiltrate the group to see their distribution list and see if any other editors are on it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd block and topic ban on sight. That sort of conduct is completely unacceptable and must be removed immediately, before others get any ideas. Rudget 15:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Moreover I think the uninvolved admin notion (especially, in my own opinion, as it relates to single purpose accounts) is somewhat broken. As User:Raul654 has been saying lately, this tends to shut out those very admins who know enough about a topic and its contribution history to make the most helpful calls on what to do about PoV/edit warring, original research and source warping. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Hear hear. At the moment its impossible for me to put sanctions on the various POV-pushers in the Israel-Palestine sphere as I'm an "involved" admin (although I nearly wasn't as some of the POV-pushers tried to derail my RfA through CANVASsing, though that's another story). When outside editors get involved they don't know the history of certain editors and tend to make poorly informed decisions. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • My take is that the specific articles listed need to be watched more closely, and new editors entering those topics need some scrutiny, but most of what is laid out in the original document is good advice; recommending that editors follow Wikipedia's procedures and policies, and more importantly, to cite relevant materials in a civil and NPOV fashion is hardly something to condemn them for. It's collaboration, but it is specifically framed to work within Wikipedia, rather than to violate established norms. Horologium (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
An interim solution seems obvious. If Camera has indeed canvassed a stacking campaign of editors organizing themselves off-line to influence Wiki content, then it has set up an extremely dangerous precedent (of sorts: it doesn't take much editing to recognize this problem is already present). Therefore a deterrent of some sort is required. What CAMERA advocates can be repeated by other lobbies (from anywhere, on any section). I therefore suggest that CAMERA itself be declared an Unreliable Source, a sufficient warning to any external agency ringing in POV-tagteam editors that, if it tries to stack Wiki, it will suffer the consequences of not being ever cited by Wiki. Anything else is a waste of time. How this is handled will be well worth watching, it will be a touchstone on which Wikipedia's administrative integrity proves, or disproves itself Nishidani (talk) 15:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No - that's a non-starter for a number of reasons. The reliability of CAMERA as a source is entirely separate to their actions here. One concern should not be piggybacked onto another. --87.112.70.168 (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
(clarifying my earlier comment after ec) Yes, CAMERA should be declared as unreliable, and use of its documents deprecated. However, if they provide reliably sourced citations (which appears to be one of the group's aims), then there should not be a problem. Horologium (talk) 15:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I've been worried about this for some time. See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Evidence-based for just one recent related problem. In addition, there have been several problematic AfDs recently of articles that have been sourced almost entirely to CAMERA and related editorials in marginal newspapers; those have mostly closed as keep after they attract vast amounts of attention. I note that RfAs should be scrutinised more carefully. All the people who vote cheerfully for people who have never participated in any form of dispute resolution, etc., etc. be warned. I haven't read the emails in detail yet, and am going offline to do so, but I've read the summary. (I notice that while Zeq is involved up to the hilt, he seems to think that Jay, while considered a useful ally, is supposed to be generally ignorant of this machination. This is good news.) Incidentally, I have been asked about this recently by a couple of reporters, including one for the Boston Globe. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Block the lot for disruption, conflict of interest, and abuse of Wikipedia, and set up a long-term abuse page on them. In fact, let's get them on Wikinews and Signpost to send a message that this isn't tolerated. We don't need Zionist crazies damaging Wikipedia, or any other crazies of <insert affiliation> either doing organized trolling and trouble. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

From their newsletter:

"The bad news is this allows anti-Israel "editors" to introduce all kinds of bias and error into the many Israel-related articles, even the entry on CAMERA. The good news is, individual volunteers can work as "editors" to ensure that these articles are free of bias and error, and include necessary facts and context. Assuring accuracy and impartiality in Wikipedia is extremely important. If someone searches for "Israel" on the Google search engine, for example, the top result returned by Google would be the Wtkjpediapag~emQn Israel. CAMERA seeks 10 volunteers to help us keep Israel-related entries on Wikipedia from becoming tainted by anti-Israel editors. All it takes to be an effective volunteer is a basic comfort level with computers. Call or email me, and I will train you on how to become a volunteer Wikipedia editor."

This group is not here to improve Wikipedia, but Israeli/their interests' standing in Google. We need to slam the door in their faces before other people decide to do this very bad thing. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, you make it sound as if POV-pushing is relatively rare on WP. As far as I can see, it's all over the place, and WP is fighting a losing battle. A witch-hunt to smoke out CAMERA infiltrators would be an utterly paranoid way to go about handling what actually is a specific instance of an endemic problem. Just handle the POV-pushing as and when you encounter it. rudra (talk) 15:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Bollocks, its worse here than elsewhere, because its co-ordinated, methods of misrepresentation are taught, and readymade, if slanted, "reliable source" quotefarms are made available. This happens only rarely elsewhere that I've seen. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
This is an organized attack by nest of trolling POV warriors. If we don't slap them down hard and in public, others will get this same bad idea. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree 110% with Lawrence, i suggest a cease and desist letter from foundation lawyers would be a good start. (Hypnosadist) 15:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It is much worse in this area than in others. The basic pattern of conflict here is the same as in the other ethnic fights, but the kind of stuff that would be easily, instantly identified as Albanian or Macedonian POV-pushing goes virtually unchallenged. We are literally still dealing with "questions" like whether the West Bank is under military occupation and whether territory outside the Green Line is Israeli. These are "controversies" in media punditry perhaps, in the same sense that global warming or evolution are "controversies," but in the relevant academic communities they are settled, consensus issues. <eleland/talkedits> 16:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Or, to add a recent and absolutely bizarre example, entire articles are for months blocked because no administrator with native English competence can come in and tell two or three editors that the word 'uprising', as established by dozens of quotations from scholarly books, the O.E.D., and over a 142 wiki pages, has been shown exhaustively to be quite normal to describe an insurrection like the al-Aqsa Intifada neutrally, being used for several hundred similar historical episodes in world historiography. Why is it blocked? Because one editor thinks using it of a Palestinian insurgency creates an unhappy analogy with the Jewish 'Warsaw Uprising'. It's rather like a Christian fundamentalist saying we shouldn't translate Tolstoy's novel with the word 'Resurrection' (denoting Dmitri Neklyodov's and Maslova the prostitute's Воскресение because it offends sentiments that associate the word with Christ's unique Resurrection.Nishidani (talk) 16:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

"We will go to war after we have build our army, equiped it, trained..." Good times. Actually, the mechanisms to deal with this are already in place. I seriously doubt that CAMERA-solicited POV-pushers will slip under the radar; the problem in such situations is more a matter of the will and energy to deal with obvious problems. I'd suggest the following as good general guidelines for this or any such situation:

  • Watchlist requests for adminship and demand evidence of actual commitment to and understanding of Wikipedia policy in admin candidates. Wikignoming and rolling back vandalism are great, but they don't require the tools. Adminship is a very big deal in April 2008, largely as a result of a series of ArbCom decisions which have handled thorny issues by empowering the Platonic "any uninvolved administrator" with extraordinary discretion. It's entirely reasonable to oppose people who haven't satisfactorily demonstrated a grasp of core policies and conflict resolution before requesting the tools. You wouldn't give someone a drivers' license because they can change a tire, would you?
  • Watchlist problem articles, even if you don't participate. Agenda-based POV-pushing thrives on a lack of outside eyes. The more these issues devolve into back-and-forth shouting matches, the less effective we are at dealing with them.
  • It's not hard to identify agenda accounts which place advocacy for their POV above Wikipedia's policies. It's really not. If you observe such behavior, then request outside input, here or via WP:RFC/U, sooner rather than later. It will not be pretty - in this recently-closed ArbCom case, I spent 6 months dealing with an obvious agenda account at every level of dispute resolution, only to be accused of "biting a newbie" when the situation ended up with ArbCom - but it can be done. MastCell Talk 15:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, a voice of sanity. The watchword is patience. rudra (talk) 16:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
"Not hard to identify agenda accounts"? "will and energy"? What universe are you living in? If you had happened to step by recent AfDs sourced entirely to CAMERA quotefarms, you would have noticed that they became such a mess that people cheerfully closed them as no consensus keeps. Will and energy are strikingly lacking in the average AfD closer - naturally, these AfDs are hardly the straightforward closes one expects, nor are they scrutinised by higher-up muckety-mucks like that of some WR rabble-rouser. How will the standard mechanisms deal with that? When further up this page we have Durova cheerfully defending an extraordinarily tendentious editor she's mentoring, who's singlehandedly derailed normal academic sourcing on a dozen articles? When any admin is 'involved' if at any point they've edited these articles? When these "agenda accounts" are being taught to wikilawyer in such a way that it will not be easy to demonstrate, in the face of the usual cheesy uproar about character assassination and rushing to judgment and lynch mobs, that they have an agenda over and above WP's? Patience-schmatience. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The alarming thing is that the group is told that creating and editing with a user account is a way to maintain anonymity. It exposes incredibly bad faith! 24.12.95.171 (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
bangpound needs a cookie. i'm not trying to be ironic. i just forgot to log in myself! i claim the above edit. Bangpound (talk) 16:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there any corroboration of the evidence? The pdf file, generated by paper capture, comes from Electronic Intifada, who we could hardly consider to be a neutral on this topic any more than CAMERA. If in fact it can be independently corroborated, shut them out as fast as possible before EI gets the idea they should adopt the same tactics. LeadSongDog (talk) 16:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Can any other existing account be linked to the group, except Zeq? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

If this is, as EI claims, a consipracy of many people - where are they ? Is there any evidence in Wikipedia that there is such a group ? is there any edit of mine which can be viewed as part of a group effort ? seriously - it seems that someone have not done his homework as I have never took part in any tag team. It is the other side who usualy able to gather several editors who revert my contributions. This whole thing smacks of a capmgain to deletimize what all good editors are trying to do: Improve the project and keep wikipedia follow it's own policy. If anyone can point to existance on wikipedia to an orgenized campgain to re-write history by Pro Israel group I would like to see proof of it - show me diffs ?. What I see now is mostly re-wrting of history by pro-Palestinian editors who may or may not work as a group. Also if my memory is correct I have never editted an article about CAMERA. please check out the history files....Zeq (talk) 16:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

'is there any edit of mine which can be viewed as part of a group effort ? seriously - it seems that someone have not done his homework as I have never took part in any tag team.'[User:Zeq|Zeq]]

Well since you asked for it, yes there is, and anyone can read the close analysis of how you operate with the full details on my talk page, where I documented how you blocked my attempt to work in reliable sources on the Mohammad Amin al-Husayni page you refused to accept, by ringing in another editor to engage in an edit-war with me, and the damage was Walter Laqueur, and Benny Morris excluded from the page, and me with a 3RR violation, after I called your game and wore an 'antisemitic' insinuation. E.g.

'Very early on October 26 Zeq asks User:Armon in New Zealand, long invisible on the page, to email him here. Quickly afterwards User:Armon begins to edit vigorously against my content contributions, often wikilawyering.

No one will notice. I never reported it. But (1) You disliked my reliable sources, (2) asked Armon to email you (3)Armon immediately began to tagteam edit with you against me, and I got banned while the two of you continued on your merry way. Go to my talk page and enjoy the full details. Nishidani (talk) 17:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Dont't ask us if we have proof. You tell us the truth. Are you claiming the whole thing is a fake, yes or no? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It never fails to amaze me how often Wikipedians give themselves away simply by not denying the charges against them. <eleland/talkedits> 16:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Guilty until proven innocent ? I am asking again a simple question: Where in wikipedia there is even a shred of evidence to show there is any such group. I edit some of the articles mentioned by EI (not all) and I follow most of them for years. I can tell you flat out that these article have no hint none what ever as to any pro-Israeli group who edit in these articles. The opposite is true: many such articles are WP:Own by group of pro-palestinian editors - this is the real issue Wikipedia need to address. take for example the article about Israeli apartheid. All other articles on such apartheid (like in Saudi Arabia) have been removed - except the article about the so called "israel apartheid" - an article that again and again by an orgenized group that prevent it from being deleted as it should have. Zeq (talk) 16:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
One 'shred of evidence': [1]. This was intended to be sent to Pinchas Cohen, Beit Or, and Humus Sapiens when it was "sent in error" to the WikiEN-I list. 66.82.9.77 (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Certainly guilty if you can't even be bothered to plead not guilty. I asked you a very straightforward quesion. Why are you not answering it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
...and even after I prompt you, you don't deny that you wrote those emails. <eleland/talkedits> 16:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Wait, are you implying that User:Zeq is organizing this off-Wiki CAMERA disruption and attack? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
That is what the document shows. Unless all the mails in it are fake, he is the organiser (or would-be organiser). As he isn't actually denying he wrote those mails, I would say I've seen enough at this point. I don't believe it's a fake; it's too well done for that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No. Future - You are not a court and I don't need to "plea" anything. If there is suc a group that include anyone but me - who are the group members ? where are diffs with their edits ? I suggest that instead of chasing ghost group wikipedia once and forall will take a look at how history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is being re-wriiten by pro-palestinian editors using clear violations of wikipedia NPOV poliocies. Zeq (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Zeq, are you a member of this off-Wiki group in any capacity, or the one who wrote this email notice to disrupt Wikipedia? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
If you are not part of this group just say so, why not deny it if its a lie? (Hypnosadist) 17:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I have not tried to disrupt wikipedia in any way. My record as good faith editor is very clear. I have my viwes _ which do not fit any group - and I edit in good faith providing sources to any of my views or edits. This record is clear over the past two years. Zeq (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


The "group" may well not yet exist of course - assuming the EI docs are genuine, canvassing for volunteers only started recently. Plus any participants are being advised to keep a low profile to start with. So this denial of any active group editing isn't really worth very much on its own, even if Zeq has nothing to do with this at the end of the day. And what is particularly galling about this is that in the past I and others, often genuinely uninvolved outsiders, have faced utterly spurious allegations of biased tag team editing, simply for making NPOV edits to articles in this area. How far did COI discussions about User:Gni get as well? I've noticed they were accused of editing from a CAMERA-associated IP address and have been barred from editing the CAMERA article. The username looks oddly linkable to name of the "senior research analyst" quoted in the documents, Gilead Ini (apologies if I'm a bit behind with this one, I've only had a quick glance around the history) --Nickhh (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The Google Group where the discussions originate does exist. http://groups.google.com/group/isra-pedia But it is invite only. Bangpound (talk) 17:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


There is another very disturbing issue, which does not yet seem to have been picked up. In the exchange of emails, the correspondent identified as "Isra guy (zeqzeq2@yahoo.com)" urges people to make edits to Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, writing "this is an article that the Palestinians will fight for. You want to get them into trouble: make legitimate edits on this article by bringing quotes from ACADEMIC sources (not jut from links on the web). get them sanctioned after they delete this info." So we have here evidence of a deliberate campaign of edit-warring, designed to get less-experienced, or careless, editors, banned from editing. I would urge all admins to check very carefully before applying any sanctions to an editor who appears to have been deliberately entrapped by such a manoeuvre. RolandR (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Let's get this stright: According to this accusation I am accused of telling "members of the group" to use proper academic sources and make legitimate edits... Nice. And where is the evidence for "deliberate campaign of edit-warring" ? Zeq (talk) 17:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Oh look Zeq has editited that article a lot. (Hypnosadist) 17:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there any thing wrong in editing this article ? Zeq (talk) 17:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I did not say that but its a 1 in 2,000,000 shot that you Zeq edit the article zeqzeq2 wants people to edit. (Hypnosadist) 17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Properly speaking, CAMERA senior research analyst Gilead Ini is the organizer. Zeq was helping out, though - start on page 5 of the pdf. <eleland/talkedits> 17:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Page 5 of which PDF? Link please? The one at the thread start is only one page. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Pdf at bottom of this page http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9474.shtml (Hypnosadist) 17:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No it's 13 pages long, I don't think you have fully downloaded it. --87.112.70.168 (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

A thought: if electronicintifada.net has these e-mails, it will almost certainly have more. Plainly someone has signed up to the Isra-pedia Google Group with the intention of acting as a mole. I think we can expect further exposés from that source in due course. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

You can sign up for the "isra-pedia" group at Google Groups: [2]. This requires a Google account. --John Nagle (talk) 20:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ban proposal

So, the upshot so far is: Zeq is denying that the group is currently active on Wikipedia; he is not denying that the mails are genuine and hence that he was trying to organise the group. Whether its alleged or real non-activity is part of his plan, or whether its a sign of the failure of his attempts, is immaterial. What counts is that he tried to organise it. In light of this, I hereby formally propose a community-imposed topic ban on Zeq from all Israel- and Palestine-related articles, for a period of no shorter than a year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • based on what Proof ? I ask again : Show me shred of proof that there is such effort. Show me any diff that fit an orgenized group edit ? I deny taking part in any effort which tried to disrupt wikipedia. last time I checked EI is not a WP:RS source...I would submit that there is actually an orgenized group by People such as RolandR who take turns in reverting m edits. If you want to see Diffs showing that I cam provide them. Zeq (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Based on the fact you've been asked to deny being part of this group and you don't. (Hypnosadist) 17:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The right to confess or profess is his, and a lack of profession does not constitute a confession. I am not aware of any Wikipedia policy whereby one editor is required to answer to another for his innocence or guilt, and protest is a perfectly legitimate explanation for falling mute on the accusations. Screen stalker (talk) 01:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This isnt a legal proceeding. If Zeq refuses to deny this, it is an act of bad faith. And to quote zeq; "last time I checked EI is not a WP:RS source" - I think we'll keep in mind you may be a less than impartial judge of that matter. Wageslave (talk) 04:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Zeq is an incredibly tendentious editor to begin with. I really don't want to have to deal with whatever tactic he'll come up with to skirt the ban, or listen to him wikilawyer about how X isn't really a Isr-Pal article, and anyway Y is an involved admin with no right to control him. I propose that Zeq be hardbanned and blocked indefinitely. <eleland/talkedits> 17:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Not the first time someone who does not like my edits suggest to ban me. Zeq (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I find it incredibly concerning that Eleland does not want to ban Zeq for something that he did, but for being "tendentious."
@Eleland, not liking someone is not a reason to ban them. Frankly, it makes me question your motives for raising this whole stink. Screen stalker (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
let's not get into wikilawyering and bullshit, nobody here has the stomach for it and you are wasting our time trying that one. You have been asked a number of times and have failed to give an answer - so let me ask once more - are you saying 1) that the emails are not from you 2) that the emails are from you but are faked/altered in some way 3) that it's all faked. What is the answer? --87.112.70.168 (talk) 17:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Let's be clear about this - he should be banned, not because he was trying to WP:CANVASS but because he was trying to fundamentally undermine the neutrality of the project. Attempts to install 'sleeper' admins who are answerable to off-site interests is NOT an attack on a specific topic area, it is an attack on the fundamental nature and integrity of the project. A clear signal must be sent - let's be clear this is not about I/P, this is about protecting the project from those who wish to use the project for their own purposes. He should be banned for a minimum of six months. --87.112.70.168 (talk) 17:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree based on the above discussion and per 87.112.70.168's comments. I also hope, that for Wikiipedia's benefit, that no major media groups pick up this story. D.M.N. (talk) 17:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • And I hope, for Wikipedia's benefit, that many do. Larry Sanger was right; Wikipedia is a polity, and a democratic polity needs a free press keeping it honest. <eleland/talkedits> 17:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
There are a couple of issues here. Is this email genuine? I don't think we can answer that easily, and I'm uncomfortable sanctioning someone based on an email exchange reproduced on a partisan website with zero accountability or fact-checking. I think that's a very dangerous precedent. That said, Zeq's respone - a combination of evasion and aggression - is not particularly reassuring. If the reproduction is genuine, then I think there's more than ample grounds to topic-ban Zeq under the terms of the Israeli-Palestinian ArbCom case. It may be worth consulting with ArbCom about this, since I suspect any remedy will likely be appealed there. MastCell Talk 17:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Is this what you meant when you said the existing systems are adequate? Because this very post seems to indicate that they aren't. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean? We're discussing a potential future problem and ways to head it off. Even if these emails are accepted at face value, they describe plans for future action. We're discussing whether some sort of remedy should be applied preventively, or whether we should wait and watch. I've voiced my opinion. What inadequacy are you seeing? MastCell Talk 18:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
See above. You're assuming rather neatly that this 50-strong effort is the first one they've made. The COI noticeboard had something similar copied from April last year, IIRC. The fact that this may have been going on without our current structures noticing (well, except for the occasional self-righteous editor jumping up and down about original research and quotefarms and coatrack articles and sockfarms) seems to suggest a certain inadequacy, what? --Relata refero (disp.) 18:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Given that my wikipedia ID is meared in such way it is reqsonable that I will be a bit angry - don't you think ? I have stated very clearly that I have not participated in an effort to disrupt wikipedia and that if you look at the articles I edit (there isreally a limited group of such articles - my watch list is maybe 50 articles) there is no evidence of any pro-israel group editing them. Zeq (talk) 17:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Some simple yes/no answer questions;

1)Are you a member of the Isra-pedia google group?
2)Have you ever used the email address zeqzeq2@yahoo.com?

The only answers i'll except are yes or no. (Hypnosadist) 17:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

MastCell is correct. The evidence against Zeq at this point is entirely from electronicintifada.net. I don't think that can be accepted as fair evidence from an unprejudiced source. At the least, it would certainly be correct to say that they openly take an opposite view to CAMERA, and, among other things, are openly dedicated to trying to destroy its credibility. They may well be right--extreme POV does not prevent someone from actually being in the right; they are dedicated to finding evidence against CAMERA, and they may indeed have found some. But I don't think we can take their word for it. If an editor is organizing a campaign of this sort, that ed. and anyone cooperating in it should be banned, but first we need some reliable evidence that it is the case. I have an opinion on this matter also, but that's not evidence either. DGG (talk) 17:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't buy anything from EI.net if they offered to throw in an adorable puppy, and the moment Zeq denies that zeqzeq is him, we will have to move on. I merely note that the articles zeqzeq is supposed to discuss, and the idiosyncratic spelling and grammar on display, appear to be truly remarkable feats of impersonation. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Zeq has not denied being zeqzeq2, nor even addressed the question, Relata. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 20:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I will support a topic ban of Zeq from the Israeli-Palestinian articles unless he denies his involvement in the offsite email campaign in a forthright and believable manner. Since misbehavior by editors pushing CAMERA's POV was previously discussed at WP:COIN I believe the evidence given there was enough to show that CAMERA was trying to organize a campaign to perform POV editing of Wikipedia. The evidence wasn't sufficient (at that time) to show how much that campaign had actually done. I note that Arbcom has given authority to individual administrators to impose article bans in this area. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Log of blocks and bans. EdJohnston (talk) 17:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support EdJohnston's particular version of a proposed topic-ban with the same conditions. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Topic ban with no qualifications, based on this exchange where Zeq finally addresses the "Did you send the zeqzeq2 email?" question with a dismissal. I meant what I said--all you have to do is say 'No, not me', and that should be enough for anyone. If ever there was a free pass given someone to get out of a community topic ban, this was it. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 20:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree. Fut. Perf. puts his finger on it: "As he isn't actually denying he wrote those mails, I would say I've seen enough at this point. I don't believe it's a fake; it's too well done for that." I can't say I'm particularly familiar with Zeq, since we don't seem to edit the same set of articles, but I've compared the language used in the e-mails quoted by electronicintifada.net and Zeq's own posts on Wikipedia; they seem to be very, very similar. I suppose one could claim it was a clever fake but there's simply too much detail, and it's too similar to Zeq's style, for that explanation to be convincing. The area of editing (and the specific articles mentioned in the e-mails) are identical. Frankly, if this was a simple case of sockpuppeting I would feel confident in blocking Zeq based on the evidence. Given the weight of evidence against him and his non-denials, I think this has to count as a cast-iron violation of the stipulations of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, specifically that editors are expected to "adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." This sort of off-wiki aggressive meatpuppetry is plainly far from our expected standards of behaviour. (added) I have now posted an analysis below - see #Lingustic analysis - based on my comparison of the zeqzeq2 e-mails with Zeq's Wikipedia contributions. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban - The last thing this encyclopedia needs is organized groups of POV-pushers, particularly on I/P issues. This has the ability to disrupt and destroy the credibility and integrity of the encyclopedia. FCYTravis (talk) 18:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose - What I've seen so far is shaping up as a witch-hunt. The evidence so far consists of (a) a PDF from a biased source, and (b) Zeq's lack of disavowing the identification with zeqzeq2(at)yahoo, to which IMHO he's perfectly entitled, by the usual understandings of anonymity. Besides, I haven't seen any analysis of things like writing style, characteristic typos and the like to substantiate the identification. The basic problem with the PDF is that it's a selection. Posts to mailing lists aren't dissertation theses with every word scrutinized in advance. I don't know how many times I've posted follow-ups to mailing lists clarifying infelicitous turns of phrase or other potential sources of misinterpretation in earlier posts. One simply can't judge from incomplete histories. Yes, the selection shows zeqzeq2 "aiding and abetting" meat-puppetry, but he offers plenty of sound advice while doing so, which taken on board could make someone coming to scoff remain to pray. I just don't see reasons to panic. rudra (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • If it's not him, that wrote that email, why doesn't he just say that? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea. But I don't think that he must answer. That's too inquisitorial an attitude for my tastes. rudra (talk) 19:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is under attack, here, from a known advocacy group who we have evidence intends to disrupt us. We have a smoking gun that implicates an editor here with a long-standing history of the same advocacy as the troll organization in question. Is Zeq being setup for a fall? Maybe. If it's not him, though, all he has to say is "No". I AGF, so that would be enough for me, as I noted in my Support of a proposed community ban. The fact he's completely ignored this very, very, very easy out tells me that zeqzeq2 is our User:Zeq. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Under attack? If only half as much indignation, energy and enthusiasm were directed at dealing permanently with known problems already here on WP. (See Relata's comment ealier about patience-shmatience). rudra (talk) 19:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
That email from CAMERA was a month ago. And we've seen inappropriate offsite canvassing even as early as:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-December/087744.html
http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2007/12/oops.html
December 2007 related to Judaism/Israel articles. Given we have multiple troll groups coordinating off-Wiki actions to get their preferred POV into an article, yes--that's a direct attack on WP:NPOV and Wikipedia itself. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Rudra, in answer to your question about "analysis of things like writing style, characteristic typos and the like", I've now done just this; see #Lingustic analysis below. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support a Full community ban, clearly Zeq is part of this Trolling group and a point must be made that this is NOT ACCEPTABLE on wikipedia and must be stopped. (Hypnosadist) 19:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Chris, I am not a member of that Group. Is that enough of a denial for you ? The list of articles I edit is small and anyone can compile such list from looking at my contribution page. This is really going too far. What you are doing is giving to an outside source EI the power to ban users who edit (according to policy) in a POV that EI does not like. You have to ask yourself if I was a pro-Palestinian editor and member of such group would EI publish this article ? The siomple answer is no. I suggest that if you want further evidence you look in wikipedia itself and so I simpley ask again: Is there any evidence within wkipedia that suggests that over the time EI claim this group exists it has been doing anything in wikipedia ? Since I know the articles mention in the list very well (these are indeed the article s I tend to edit) I can tell you 100% : there is no pro-israeli group working on those articles, In fact there is an effort cordinated by several pro-Palestinian editors to WP:Own some of these articles. Zeq (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Were you a group member in the past? <eleland/talkedits> 18:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Forget were you a member--did you write the cited email on page 5 of that PDF? Thats what is critical here. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Are you zeqzeq2 in those emails? --Relata refero (disp.) 18:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support if EI's assertions hold up, as this is a very disturbing allegation. Its one thing to face off with those of opposing points of view; as tenditious as they may be, it is still just one person and one opinion. To find that there really may be a cabal behind it gaming the system kinda undercuts what this project is trying to accomplish here. The broken Engrish of Wikipedia's Zeq and zeqzeq2@yahoo.com are certainly strikingly similar for what its worth...I've had to read that stuff for 2+ years here now. But the part I find kinda damning is on Page 13 regarding the Allegations of Israeli apartheid and Uri Davis page numbering discussion. Zeq was heavily involved and had been fighting that for awhile, and per usual, Jayjg leaped into the fray and the issue eventually got tied up over at WP:V. zeqzeq2@yahoo.com touting this on the e-mail as a victory is precisely how Zeq would see that. Feel kinda sorry for Jayjg in all of this, as it appears that this cabal has been keeping him as an unwitting shield. Tarc (talk) 19:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Jayjg's hands are not clean in all this, so we can deprecate or ignore any views he may have on this matter. He's done the exact same thing as Zeq:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-December/087744.html
http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2007/12/oops.html
  • I found this on Google looking for similar instances of things like this, and it's frankly disturbing. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • So now Jay IS part of this. Below Chris O has evidence against me based on the fact that Jay is not part of it. You have to get the story stright. Zeq (talk) 21:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
And the denials just don't cut it I'm afraid, from where I'm sitting. The constant claim that he is not part of a group that aims to "disrupt" Wikipedia (see below) is a cheap get-out, based on Zeq's apparent perception that this sort of behaviour is not, or would not be, disruptive, but rather part of a legitimate attempt to hit back against the "pro-Palestinian" bias here. That premise of course is odd enough as it is, as well as being symptomatic of a wider malaise where one or two highly partisan and involved editors that I've encountered believe that if Wikipedia content doesn't accord with their right-wing Israeli POV, it is somehow not NPOV. But this effort to pull together a committed group to manipulate and bulldoze content, rig administrator appointment processes etc, and do so under the guise of following the rules here is something else. Although perhaps hardly surprising. --Nickhh (talk) 19:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No it based on the simple fact that I am not a memebr of any such group and that I am not aware that such group operating in any of the wikipedia articles I am editing. Zeq (talk) 21:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


And another group here coordinating Israeli/Zionist actions offline against Wikipedia, this is a trend. http://www.israelactivism.com/index.php?mode=newsletter#article11 Lawrence Cohen § t/e 19:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I support a topic ban (at least) of Zeq, based on my review of the above and of http://electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf. Judging from his evasive non-denials and writing style, I think it is sufficiently likely that Zeq is the editor "zeqzeq2" on that mailing list. Recruiting people to be meat puppets in order to fight a "war" on Wikipedia, and asking them to stand for adminship so as to more effectively push a POV, is extremely disruptive and needs to be sanctioned. As for any editors who may follow Mr Gilead Ini's somewhat more reasonable proposal to join Wikipedia and to follow its policies – including NPOV, V and NOR – they should be judged on their individual merits, if there's no indication of meatpuppet-like concertation. Sandstein (talk) 20:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support per Lawrence Cohen. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
    • This vote shows the danger in such votes. Marvin Diode had several edit dsiputes with me in the article Rachel Corrie - mentioned in the EI article. Now the same person - based on the EI witch hunt - voted to ban me so that he can get the upper hand in placing the emphasis in that article in a way that would fit what he and ISM wish. If I am not miasken there was a pervious dispute in which someone was trying to use EI as a source for wkipedia article. Zeq (talk) 21:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - yikes, I remember blocking him two years ago. Clearly hasn't changed despite AC case. Sceptre (talk) 23:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support me too, the evidence seems pretty damning.--Aldux (talk) 23:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not sufficient evidence to support a ban at this time. Zeqzeq2 could easily be an attempt at libel at this user, and I am not sure it really is Zeq. Yahel Guhan 00:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support It's quite clear that Zeqzeq2 is User:Zeq. The fact that he initially refused to answer the question as to whether it was him that wrote the emails and weasled around the fact that he didn't edit CAMERA articles, and now that he's had time to think, has launched a counter attack on EI and other editors just seems to be deliberate obsfucation to try and avoid getting his just desserts. I think the remedies section of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zeq might be worth a read too. пﮟოьεԻ 57 08:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Lack of a confession does not constitute a profession. There is evidence that Zeq (or someone else who may use "Zeq" as a shorhand for "Isaac"... just a guess) may have been involved in isra-wiki. But I have see no concrete evidence that this ever translated into actual wikipedia edits. That kind of evidence might help corroborate (though it wouldn't totally confirm) EI's claim. Why haven't the articles concerned burst at the seams with pro-Israeli edits all of a sudden? Screen stalker (talk) 02:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support complete permanent ban. Wageslave (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support a complete permanent ban. This is not the first time Wikipedia has encountered this sort of problem, and it should take a clear stance; this sort of organized action attacks the very principles Wikipedia stands for. Any editors known to be participating in this activity with Zeq should also be banned, and some sort of COI rule should be discussed and enforced. csloat (talk) 01:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support a complete permanent ban. POV-pushing is unacceptable; organizing an external group in order to undermine Wikipedia's neutrality in order to put ANY sort of bias into Wikipedia is BEYOND unacceptable, and attempting to create "uninvolved admins"... well, the whole thing is despicable. We need to take a firm stance against it, and I have no sympathy for anyone who tries to pull this sort of thing. I'm sure the Middle East related articles are problematic enough without people like this. Titanium Dragon (talk) 04:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support a complete permanent ban. We're seeing Denial (eg over the Deir Yassin pogrom) at least as serious as gets people imprisoned in some countries. We've lost lots of good, scholarly editors by the tactics that Zeq (and other illiterates) describe and have practiced. He's not only been cheating consistently, he's helpfully told us that he knows at least one very senior editor who has been doing the same. I don't deny being partisan - but I've never attempted to damage articles. And I don't ever recall seeing any regular "pro-Palestinian" editor damaging articles (correct me if I'm wrong). I've never colluded or seriously attempted to collude with people who might share my view-point - while fielding mostly slaps from editors who might have benefited from my "support". It's time this cancer of gang activity was cut out. PRtalk 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Question for Zeq

The email in question is on page 5 of this PDF: http://electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf Zeq, is this you? The writing style, language, and unique formatting of using ? with a space does appear to be. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

An earlier CAMERA ANI case is here. Boodlesthecat Meow? 17:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Zeq, please address this, as this is the apparent key issue as relates to you. Otherwise, this is something for RFAR, if you do not. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 17:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Circumstantial evidence

On 12 and 13 February 2006, at time when Zeq was defending himself in an ArbCom case which resulted in him being banned indefinitely from editing 1948 Arab-Israeli War and Palestinian exodus, an editor using the IP 85.64.196.2 posted on the talk pages of several editors on the Hebrew Wikipedia], soliciting their intervention in the article in English Wikipedia. Although the edits, using Tel-Aviv based IPs, were anonymous, one of them asked an editor to reply to the address zeqzeq2@yahoo.com. Although not conclusive evidence, it is certainly worth noting. RolandR (talk) 20:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the first time I see a wikipedia case in which :
  1. No diffs are presented
  2. An e-mail address is discussed this way.
It seems that it does not matter what I say, people have made up their mind. The simple fact that everyone seems to ignore is this: Was there anything in wikipedia that violated Wikipedia policies ? I am not aware any such violation, surly by myself and furthermore I have not seen (in the articles I edit frequantly) nor do I know of any group effort that tries to disrupt wikipedia. What I do know is that EI is not a WP:RS source, that it is a strong advocacy web site. I again chalange anyone to come up with support for the claims made by EI. I comaned RolandR (who is part of a revert tag team that frequantly revert my edit - tag team is a "group effort") for draging an unrelated issue from over two years ago. It seems that if Roland had to go so far to find some evidence clearly he looked well enough closer to home and found: NOTHING. Zilch, Nada. Zeq (talk) 20:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
By what right do you "command" me to do anything. This is not the army, you know. RolandR (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Zeq, if this is not you, why don't you simply say, "the zeqzeq2 in question is not me"? AGF would lead me to believe you--my support of the topic ban is contingent your answer, as are others. You won't even say why you won't say. Is zeqzeq2 on the Hebrew wiki and that mail you? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 20:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Why ? because outside EI there is no proof that this all thing even exists. If you show that such effort exist and you have some diffs showing I took part in it - at that point I will have to provide you for an answer. So far no one have shown any such evidence.
Your descision to ban a pro-israeli editor would be based on an article in an advocay Pro-Palestinian web site. One more step for wikipedia. You might even prove CAMERA to be right if they claim wkipedia is biased....(BTW, I am not now and never been a memeber of CAMERA nor did I ever edited any article about CAMERA) Zeq (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for finally addressing the question directly. I did not !vote to ban you from the topics; I said that based on your answer to the "Are you the zeqzeq2?" question I would. Since you seem to be completely unwilling to even say "I'm not zeqzeq2 that sent that email", even if you were, I have to conclude you are. Sorry. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 20:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
You haven't replied, Zeq to my demonstration that you indeed have employed group-team editing tactics, which you deny here. It may just have been missed in the flurry, but you did challenge anyone to come up with evidence you have ever organized group-editing in wiki, and I provided the evidence of this very specific request regarding the Mohammad Amin al-Husayni page, to another editor, User:Armon, to email you. A few hours later, Armon joined in and tagteam edited with you to get me to violate 3RR. Result you two managed to keep out highly reliable Zionist sources off that page on a crucial point.Nishidani (talk) 20:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I did not and I can not be responsible for your 3RR violation. In fact on many cases I have given up trying to fight your edits on that article simply because I wanted to avoid edit wars. You on the other hand seem to take part in them and you had a tag team that supported your edits and reverts. Zeq (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
My current page and archives show that I have consistently turned down requests to activate my email because I believe everything in wiki must be above board, and therefore no private contacts. You are entitled to believe what you believe of me. The fact stands that you contacted Armon privately, and he began to help you edit-war. You asked for proof. I gave it, and you now dodge the obvious evidence by accusing me of the same tactic, but without evidence (for there is none). Nishidani (talk) 21:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Before I was driven off in exasperation, there were lots of occasions when I could have done with your non-collusive advice over sources, wording etc - no relation atall to the brazen cheating that we've had described. There is another top "Palestinian sympathetic" editor I've really wanted to contact but who has been similarly impervious to my advances. PRtalk 21:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I am impressed with how much material has built up in this discussion so soon, and I am only beginning to get the big picture of what everyone is getting at here.
@Nixhidani, no one forced you to violate 3RR. They put you in a position where you had to either (a) follow wikipedia policy or (b) accept a version of the article that you didn't like. You chose option (a); they did not choose it for you.
@everyone, I must say that I tremendously respect Zeq's courage. It would be extremely simple for him to dig himself out of this hole by just professing his innocence. But what is easy is not always right, and I think he is making a very powerful protest. In fact, this ought to show us the kind of editor that Zeq is: extremely dignified and distinguished in his regard for decorum. Those character traits lead me to believe that he could not have done what he is accused of doing. If he did, he would have said "I didn't do it" in a heartbeat. Screen stalker (talk) 02:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
3RR is easily breached by productive editors making incremental changes and responding to apparent vandalism. I know this for sure because, while rigorously refusing to edit-war, I was caught out in similar fashion. PRtalk 21:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and I forgot: It's also worth noting that he did deny being a member of CAMERA in particular, and any similar organization in general. He denied it twice. But other editors have changed their request to a more specific denial, so that what he says will never suffice. I think the goal here is clear: Other editors want Zeq to submit; they want to shame him. First they say they want him to repudiate this group. After he does, they want more. They want to show the world that they can push him around, and maybe that's why he resists. That's just what I imagine. I can't say for sure (though it would be nice if I were psychic).Screen stalker (talk) 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This is not the first time that editors have been apparently caught out in really serious breaches of the principles of the project and have refused to confirm or deny their involvement, a situation that simply leaves a dark cloud over their involvement. I'm sure User:Zeq would wish to clear his name from allegations this serious. PRtalk 21:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Related sock farm?

I note that a few days ago a checkuser run by Thatcher discovered a large farm of sockpuppets, which had been editing (sometimes rather disruptively) mostly Israel-Palestinian articles. See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Evidence-based for details. I wonder if this is related to the CAMERA campaign discussed above? -- ChrisO (talk) 17:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This is intersting. I took a look at the group described here Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Evidence-based. I reconized one name Susan somthing. I stumble upon several of her edits when her user page was RED. So I tried to e-mail her but there was no e-mail. I asked her to open an e-mail account but she did not do it so at the end i told her on the talk page (if I recall correctly) to open a user page so that her name in history file will not apear red. This is pretty much as far as my involvment with any of the names on that list. Surly not very "disruptive" . I also did partyicipate in one AFD in which she participated in (I think) - hopefully that is not a crime either. Zeq (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I say "disruptively" because the sockpuppeteer didn't have much idea about reliable sourcing and repeatedly insisted on inserting thoroughly unreliable sources (FrontPage Mag, Michelle Malkin's blog etc) in the one article where I interacted with the sockpuppets. It wasn't very disruptive, just typical of the sort of thing you get when you deal with people who are convinced they alone are in possession of The Truth™. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Why will you not just answer the question? --87.112.70.168 (talk) 17:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Some simple yes/no answer questions;

1)Are you a member of the Isra-pedia google group?
2)Have you ever used the email address zeqzeq2@yahoo.com?

The only answers i'll accept are yes or no. (Hypnosadist) 17:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

If the answer to #1 is "Yes", what does that prove? Last I checked, being a member of a google group doesn't mean that one agrees with everything posted there.
If the answer to #2 is "Yes", what does that prove? Emails can be faked, y'know.
Even so, what, exactly, would answering "No" prove? Either Zeq would be honestly answering if he wasn't involved, or lying if he was involved. Either one would believe him/her or not -- it comes down to reputation and believability, and, besides, it seems like the questioners already have their mind made up either way. I can understand getting my hackles up at those questions and refusing to answer -- the line of interrogation is too much like the loyalty oath fever of the American 1950's for my taste.
If there's a group plotting to abuse Wikipedia (pro- or anti-Israel, f'rinstance) (and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest), root it out, no matter what the cause they are fighting for. But let's try good old-fashioned methods, like evidence and analysis, instead of the new trend towards badgering and character assassination.
Oh, in case anybody wants to know (and wants to believe me), I'm not a member of any such group, I have not been a member of the Communist party (although, in high school, I did put up posters saying "Leon Trotsky for Student Body Treasurer" as a joke), I have not advocated the violent overthrow of the Government of the United States, and I don't think I have edited any article dealing with Israel or Palestine except possibly for vandalism reversion (and if I have I am deeply sorry and promise to try not to do something apparently stupid like that again). I'm just not sure I like what is happening here in general. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 18:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia demands loyalty to its policies and its objectives if not you get banned. Zeqs constant unwillingness to answer a simple question is what makes me believe this aligation to be true. (Hypnosadist) 18:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Loyalty is shown by deeds and actions -- oaths and interrogation are useless. Again, I ask, what if he answered "no"? Would it change anything? Would it mean anything? Would it change your mind? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Not now, if he had said that over an hour ago i would have believed him. But more evidence has turned up in that hour, such as the links between Zeq articles and zeqzeq2 articles and also grammar/spelling simularities. Now the only line of defence is claiming persicution. (Hypnosadist) 18:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Nonsense. Due deference, yes. Respect, yes. But loyalty? Puhleeeze. rudra (talk) 19:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly the point. Indeed e-mails can be spoofed but so many have already supported to ban me despite the fact that there is absoltly no proof of any such activity. I have went a step further and said that I am not a member of that group. This whole "interogation" smacks of McCartism at it's best.

If anyone have a proof that I took part in an effort to disrupt wikipedia - surly that person can bring one diff that supports this allegation.

Anyone who fiollow my edits over the last two years or more can see that I am not part of any group. My edit are my own. In good faith and in an honest effort to improve the project.

My edits are not liked by many of the large group of pro-Palestinian supporters in wikipedia. They have done a good job in re-writing history except in few places where I was able to stop them. I have been editing under a list of restrictions and for the past 2 years have not violated them. yet, time and time again there are editors and admins who come up with a reason to ban me ? and now we have this.

If anyone will come up with a proof that anything in wikipedia has any connection to the allegation i.e. show me a group effort, show me editors who became admins show me SOMETHING to support te allegation. Where is your proof ? Zeq (talk) 18:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Look, the most damaging thing in the email collection is not a specific edit that you or anyone else has made. It's the naked intent to use Wikipedia as a battlefield, to "train and equip an army" of POV-pushers and admins. The "proof" or disproof of that is in your behavior. Even if the articles were 100% biased to a pro-Palestinian point of view, this would be a destructive and inappropriate approach. If your behavior (past, present, and future) gives credence to the idea that you view Wikipedia as a battlefield on these terms, then a topic ban would be not only appropriate but lenient. If your behavior contradicts the assertion that you treat Wikipedia as an ideological battlefield, then I wouldn't worry about what EI has to say. MastCell Talk 18:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems you have took your shot and now paint a target circle around it. I have said all along: I am editing wikipedia on my own. I do it to improve this project. If my edits over the last year would be the reason for this AN/I discussion it is one thing. They are not. We are here because of an EI allegation that has no proof inside wikipedia. EI speaks of a group effort to disrupt wkipedia. No such group that I am aware off. No edits in wkipedia that are even suspects of being made by such group. that is the key issue you ignore. It seem you look for a reason to ban me and base it on that allegation - without such allegation the issue of my edit would not show up here as I have been very aware to edit within the limitationmof my probation. Zeq (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Exactly Mastcell. (Hypnosadist) 18:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


The battlefield metaphor is rather frequent. When User:Jaakobou came in for a one week sanction, a fellow poster lamented the fact that he was 'missing in action'. It is very hard to edit when one's adversary is looking for a salient into 'enemy terrain', rather than looking for salience on the topic.Nishidani (talk) 20:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


This could have been an issue if this discussion would arrise from my edits in wikipedia. In fact in the last year or so I have avoided getting into fights. In many cases left articles in which I was alone and a group effort against me (2-3 editors) was reverting all my edits. Is wkipedia battlefield ? I have suggested long ago that the only way to deal with articles in the I/P conflict is this way:

1. create the article off line - visiable only to editors 2. Vote on the article by a large number of editors (who did not edit the article). 3. The vote should be on one issue: Is the article NPOV ? 4. If the answer is yes by consensus - only at that point would the article published to the rest of the public 5. In the backgroud - work on the next rev of the article to be published in 3-6 month. (or if urgent fixes/upadtes in 2-3 weeks)

As things stands right now. Most wikipedia articles are tilted to a pro-Palestinian POV. Most other editors from Hebrew wikipedia have left the english wikipedia because they can not deal with on going fights by pro-palestinian editors.

This is the real issue, the issue wikipedia refuse to deal with for years. banning me is indeed a solution : To ban a single voice that tried to keep a small list of atrticles NPOV.

the issue of how I view wikipedia as nothing to do with this ban. never before was an editor subject to Thought police. Also to pretend that there are no off-wiki coordination (by e-mail and such) is false. So I suggest agaim that you look to find ANY EVIDENCE in wikipedia itself. If you find disruptive behaviour ban that editor. If you find such behaviour in a group ban the group. I am not and have never been part of a group that disrupted (or intended to disrupt) wikipedia. Zeq (talk) 19:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Some simple yes/no answer questions;

1)Have you ever been a member of the Isra-pedia google group?
2)Have you ever used the email address zeqzeq2@yahoo.com?

The only answers i'll accept are yes or no. (Hypnosadist) 18:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you've said above that you won't believe a "no" answer, why are you repetitively posting your questions? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone else might believe him. (Hypnosadist) 19:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I highly doubt that. People here do not like me so much but if in order to ban me they need to rely on Electronic Intifada - this would be an interesting case. It means that despite all the probation, limitations, restrictions, tag teams that reverted my edits in the last month - none of my edits have violated wikipedia policy and in order to ban me some alleagtion by a Pro Palestinian web site has to be dragged in to get me banned.
It seems that this is indeed Mcaratism. No due process. Question are asked based on some allegations and if you don't answer the right answer people support your being banned. Is this the spirit of wikipedia ? if so banning me is a good idea. Zeq (talk) 20:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of you before and never edit I/P article - why don't you answer the very simple question ? did you write those messages? The fact that your defence seems to consist of "well we haven't done anything yet so there is no problem" frankly does not sit well with me. --87.112.70.168 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This whole business is really ridiculous. What is this, the Inquisition? It sounds like McCarthyism for heaven's sake. No one did anything wrong here except exercise their right to associate and speak privately with others regarding issues they consider important. Do you honestly think that Electronic Intifada does not get its members together to disseminate propaganda -- on wiki and elsewhere? Do you think just because you don't have the 'proof,' that it doesn't exist? No one should be punished or banned for their associations outside of wiki. If someone has done something wrong inside of wiki, base any judgments on that, not on group membership in other organisations or associations, or what has been supposedly said and 'found out' by 'spies' who spread the information to harm others. That is a very bad precedent to set. Juanita (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)