Posted by: maidensong | April 27, 2008

A Pawn’s Rebellion: Deconstructing the Huckabee/Romney Feud

I’ve always liked chess.

Can’t say I ever totally mastered it, but I do know that it’s a battle of minds and wills and strategies, and that it doesn’t REALLY get going until some disposable pawns are taken out like so much cannon fodder.

I believe that many online political activists have been reduced to pawns; manipulated, sacrificed, and used to further the agenda of some knights, bishops, kings and queens in the MSM and major league blogosphere.

I’m not a Romney fan… but how did my personal uneasiness about his recent social conservative conversion, become a full blown case of Romney derangement syndrome? I mean, at it’s height I was practically frothing at the mouth in my passionate ‘hatred’ for the man.

I see the same thing from the other side about Mike Huckabee. Sometimes it seems like Romney supporters would love the opportunity to make Mike in effigy and burn him at the stake. The intensity of vitriol is potent, but I doubt at the beginning of January most of them even knew who Huckabee was.

So, the question becomes,  how did we the party faithful end up where we are; full of this unneccessary poison that may end up tainting our ability to reason clearly come November?

The answer I believe, is that we were played as pawns by the conservative and mainstream media and blogosphere both, in their attempts to influence this electoral process in the direction they saw fit.

Lets begin in Iowa … with the unexpected boom in earned media coverage of Huckabee.

The MSM’s experiment with the ‘preacher who would be president’ went through a roller coaster of agendas.

 First he was covered for electoral ‘entertainment,’ not taken at all seriously and not allowed into the hallowed atmosphere of the 1st tier. But Mike is a skilled communicator, and used those apearances to drive up his name recognition and poll numbers, right before the critical first in the nation primary, making him a threat to the then front runner Romney.

This is the critical point at which the general voting public becomes aware of Huckabee and begin to tune in to information about the dark horse candidate.

It is also the first time that many voters become aware that Mitt was running well in Iowa and that there was a contest going on between the two men.

It became the point when the chess masters started manouvring their pawns to get their favorites into a position for checkmate.

The conservative media were already in mid Rudy/Fred propoganda strategy when it became clear that these two would not be players in Iowa, and of the two remaining players, Mitt was clearly more ‘presidential’ in their eyes.

Thus began weeks of intensive interrogation interviews on Fox and the sunday shows, as ’scandal after scandal’ and contorversy were dug up and ’analyzed’ in a constant news cycle in attempts to take the shine off Huckabee’s appeal. Many of the far right giants in the poIitical blogosphere followed suit. Sometimes they even broke the ‘latest scandal’ and fed it into the MSM.

It didn’t help that in the chase for a scoop, reporters cherry picked questions and statements made by both candidates and blew them into days worth of ‘negative’ coverage further inflaming the partisans on both sides of the divide… the now infamous Mormon question by Mike, or the marching with Martin Luther King Jr. comments from Mitt. These were probably not the best comments to make when your every word is going to be dissected, but the damage they did was mainly because of the spin put on the comments by ‘commentators’ and not the comments themselves.

Now, in the minds of Romney supporters Huckabee was a soft on crime, pro-life liberal, knuckle dragging corrupt, bigoted, bible thimping hick. And in the minds of Huckabee supporters, Mitt was a slick opportunist, an empty suit, an elitist  who would say or do anything to get elected.

This maybe wouldn’t have been an unsurmountable problem if the two candidates were covered equally by the one set of commentators that REALLY mattered to the conservative voting public.. but they weren’t.

Because of the clear and OBVIOUS bias of the Hannity’s Ingrams and Malkins against the Huckabee candidacy, Huckabee supporters became livid with the unfair and unbalanced coverage of their candidate in favor of  Romney.

We had no problem with Mike being held accountable for the ’squishy’ areas of his record, but when the conservative media refused to ‘analyze’ the squishiness in Romney’s record, and in effect whitewashed him into Reagan reincarnated, it was very hard to swallow.

Unfortunately, I believe that the steaming frustration we had with the conservative leaders we had trusted to be objective, became directed, unfairly or not, on the object of their affection. Romney.

I began to destest him because he was in my opinion, receiving unfair and perhaps undeserved support from the very people who were doing evrything in their power to negate the candidacy of someone who was a reflection of what mattered most to ME.

It really didn’t help when supporters of both candidates themselves began to spout the media talking points in blog comments, and even went beyond ‘facts’ to the visceral personal character attacks in those comments. I began to percieve Romney’s character as being  the same as the ‘worst’ of his supporters own, and ‘hated’ him even more. I am probably not too far off the mark to say that Romney supporters probably had a visceral reaction to the more extreme presonal attacks on Romney that some Huckabee supporters made as well, and likewise made the leap to attributing those qualities to Mike.

By being unfair in their coverage, the conservative media shot themselves in the foot. They managed to alienate the very voters that they were trying to convince to buy what Mitt was selling. A better strategy would have been to say, Huckabee is good.. but Mitt is better..

Saying Huckabee was a liberal was like telling me and others like me, that I was a liberal too…  “voting bloc overboard!” Not the best way to woo us. It instead created a vicious circle of poisonous dislike that began with the media, but was continued and perpetuated by inflamed supporters.

While the Huckabee supporters waged their war with the conservative media elite, the MSM was still playing with their new ‘preacher Huckabee’ toy, enjoying that it was bothering the GOP elite that they were playing with a ‘pastor,’ and that their apparently unwarranted attention was driving the Romney supporters crazy in their own rights.

In the end, nobody realized that the only winners were the ‘media’ in all its forms, and that the only losers were we the people who cared enough to be actually engage in the political process in action.

Almost all of our ‘frenzy’ is rooted in published and broadcasted material that is written with the intent of being provocative and stirring up hostility between camps. We moved beyond calm and logical opposition on principle, to rabid rival steet gangs, each intent on the destruction of the other.

There are always those extreme, (and immature) characters who will detest and reject a candidate out of hand because of something as personal as their religion.. (on both sides of the divide) But by and large, most of us are just very impressionable, and inclined to believe whatever ‘fits’ with our personal take on a particular issue. If you were inclined to like Mitt, you were more likely to believe and embrace information that reduced Huck’s viability, and vice versa.

Nothing gives these writers and reporters more validation than having 300 comments of Huckabee vs. Romney hysteria posted after their articles. Some bloggers will go so far as to create provocative websites, and then blog about them in a way that provokes controversy.

(I will not go so far as to accuse, but I find it highly suspicious that the huckabee4america.com website was created the same day that it was blogged about on Townhall, in a way designed to inflame Romney supporters against Huck. Further, a google search of the website yeilded only 2 hits, the website and the townhall article. Now, that TH article is being cited as a source by other pro-Romney bloggers in an anti-Huck light.)

Then there is the most recent commentary on Mike’s campaign spin with McCain in Arkansas.

Reported objectively in multiple sources, you come away with a sense that Huckabee and McCain are good friends able to campaign together comfortably because they had a civil campaign.

The exact same conversation reported with an agenda, included the comment, “In a dig at Romney…”

Excuse me.. is that reporter psychic? Can she read minds… how dare she assume that a comment about ‘negative campaigning’ had to be about Romney… did not Fred play dirty, and perhaps hurt Mike even worse that Mitt ever did in SC?

People are playing with our heads… and we’re letting them!

Look, we all have to get to the point where we can say I like my guy more than your guy… but I don’t hate your guy, and I could see some benifits that he could bring to the table.

Neither of these candidates were angels… they are human, and politicians after all. We need to take them down off of their pedestals and accept them for the flawed representatives of our world views that they are.

I’m so tired of being the entertainment or validation pawn for ‘reporters’ or bloggers trying to make their mark on the world with unprofessional provocation.

I’m just not going to play anymore. 

His Handmaiden

Responses

I’ve lived in Arkansas through the full course of my sixty years of life, and know Mike Huckabee’s record all too well:

He’s hand-in-hand with Tyson Foods and Wal-Mart Corporation in bringing countless hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens into Arkansas, and thereby eliminating good wages and the opportunity for health care benefits that might match those seen elsewhere in the nation. Despite what Mike has pronounced with the unveiling of his “9-point-plan,” he once joked openly with poultry tycoon John Tyson at his side (at a 2005 Latino luncheon in Little Rock): “At this rate [given the rapid and unchecked profusion of illegal aliens into the U.S. job market], guys like you and me [Caucasian males] will likely soon be a distinct minority.”

An attempted subversion of our traditional language and culture–to say nothing of the destruction of our middle-class–is no laughing matter, despite Huck’s and John Tyson’s public guffaws three years ago. Better do your homework on Huckabee before you again criticize those whom you erroneously believe don’t know Mike Huckabee.

Great perception! I agree with your analysis 100%. The MSM and FOXNEWS are power hungry entities who will stop at nothing to further their own agendas.

Michael,

Thank you for your feedback.

I’ve always had difficulty understanding why folks, especially republicans would have a problem with Mike’s relationships with ‘tycoons’ Typically, the GOP embraces the right of an American to become successful, that’s how capitalism works.

If there was evidence that Huckabee participated in some kind of illegal activity that directly resulted in illegal aliens working for Tyson, then he should deservedly have been removed from office.

I am no expert, but it just appears that Huckabee fostered relationships between the state and it’s successful businesses, and maybe that he has bad taste in jokes.

I’d also put money on it that once again the ‘pro-illegal alien’ interpretation came not from first hand witness, but from media interpretation of the incident which included spin to suit someone’s agenda.

As far as I can tell, Huckabee cares for the rule of law, but he hasn’t forgotten to have a compassionate heart in the process. He has no problem with a raid on a plant, he just doesn’t want children waiting to be picked up at school by parents who are sitting in jail awaiting deportation.

There’s a way to do things, and a right way to do things…

I guess I agree with him!

thanks again for your contribution. :)

Very well-written article, and I whole-heartedly agree. As a Romney supporter, I believe that he’s a better candidate than Huckabee, but quite frankly, it’s wonderful to have two articulate, God-fearing men trying to lead the country. Quite frankly, we need more like them at every level of government. Let’s work to be inclusive instead of divisive like our buddies across the aisle. There’s not much difference between Obama and Clinton (except that one’s half-black and one’s female), but it’s tearing their party apart. Further, the odds are EXTREMELY good that either Romney or Huckabee will get the VP nod. It just makes way too much sense to unify the party.

The problem I have always had with Huckabee and some of his supporters is their smearing and hatred of Romney and his supporters. If Huckabee and his supporters were to just be truthful, sincere and honest without being too angry, I think most Romney supporters wouldn’t be in such a defensive mode all the time. I just ask for honesty minus vitriolic attitudes of hatred. Can’t we all just get along? Heck, even Huck seems to be doing just fine with McCain, as is Rom
ney and most other conservatives and moderates. Let’s just keep with facts and forgive each other and MOVE FORWARD, like out motto says.

I forgive you if you forgive me. Group hug?

*Hugs all around* :) :)

It’s going to be hard for many to let it go…maybe we can all start by collectively shutting down bloggers and reporters looking to stir us up.

Take back the power!!

The exact same conversation reported with an agenda, included the comment, “In a dig at Romney…”

I am a Thompson supporter but really don’t mind McCain. I’m glad this was written b/c we all need to group together. But I can’t help notice that everytime Huck gets near a mic he has to criticize Romney. He hates Romney. In fact, his love fest with the other cands seems like it is all about one upping MR. Remember the comment about MRs sons and their inheritance? How awkward.

The problem is that that’s him. He’s a pastor with little biz background, no education, no foreign policy cred and nothing to hold on to but a belief system and conservative values. He lack the emotional maturity to put things in a rational perspective. For example, knowing when to drop out!

He is obviously either offended by MR or is seriously jealous of the money and looks. Isn’t envy a “sin”? Isn’t quickness to forgive a christian trait? While his belief system is christian, his character seems just as slimy and contriving as the others.

MR doesn’t have the central core belief system. WHich is why people distrust him. He’s a product of a very successful business career where sometimes if you have to change course to get better results you have to change course. Whther you agree with that or not in a politician is up to you but at least MR can get things done quickly and efficiently.

The one thing that the radio crowd sees in MR that Huck supporters don’t is they see a staunch conservative who ran to the center to get elected in MA and is now coming back to the right. Like I said, not a core values guy but one focused on the result.

Brian,

I see your point as well.

We may not like to admit it, but good people with core values can have human weaknesses. Mike was obviously very hurt by the contrast ads Mitt ran in Iowa, (He didn’t appear to be targeting Mitt particularly until he went on the offensive) It was particularly irksome to have your weaknesses pointed out while establishment appeared to cover up Mitt’s. I know that drove supoorters crazy, so it must have Mike as well.

The difference is, most expect politicians to be able to ‘let it go’ and even as a supporter I have seen that Mike has had trouble doing that. It part perhaps, because Mitt is still being pushed by the Bush insider crowd and elites… but that’s no excuse for not taking the high road.

I also think he’s taking cues from his supporters. I think if we start blogging on masse about our concern with the negativity, we may see a gradual fading of the resentment. Mitt and Mike also need to spend some time on the trail together getting over their differences.

It can be done, but it will take work.

I believe you are being more than fair to Romney. He had a huge staff of advisors and a ton of money devoted to overwhelming the political process. He had the support of the Republican establishment because he had agreed to continue their policies. The corrupt media were all on his side because he had the money and they think money is power.

The election should be a contest of ideas, not a dog-eat-dog war of resources. I never heard a single good idea from Romney, just a bunch of platitudes like “Washington is broke and I will fix it”. It truly seemed like David against Goliath in Iowa. My progressive admiration for Huckabee and dislike of Romney was based on the facts of their campaigns, not just the media representations of them.

I feel sorry for supporters of any candidate that gets tricked by the biased media. For many Romney and Huckabee supporters, this was their first time participating in the primary elections. It’s sad that so many were easily tricked into hating other candidates.

I am a Huckabee supporter and dislike Mitt Romney, but I did not hate Romney. I actually started out liking Romney, that is, until I researched him. I do not dislike Romney based on what the media told me. I do not dislike Romney because of his religion, as many of his remaining supporters want people to believe. I do not dislike Romney because he is a filthy rich.

I dislike Mitt Romney because of his record, his lack of morals, his willingness to flip-flop, and his eagerness to attack anyone he perceives as his closest competition. He uses dirty politics but then complain and whine when the tables are turned on him. To put it simply, Mitt Romney is a spoiled, sore loser.

Even though I dislike Mitt Romney, I have never “smeared” him or unfairly bashed him on the Internet, even though I’ve seen many fellow Huckabee supporters despise him to a point where a select few would sink to Romney and his supporters’ level. People were so blinded by hatred on both sides, that they totally forget all about what Mike Huckabee taught us about vertical politics. I’m glad that at least 1 previously blind Huckabee supporter is willing to admit that she was at fault. Now all we need is for the other thousands of Huckabee and Romney supporters to come out and repent for their petty Internet warfare the past 3 months.

There’s a back handed complement for ya.. :)

:D

Great thought provoking article.

During the election, this question roughly squeezed voters into two camps:

values or dollars, which are non-negotiable?

I am certain that Huckabee is strong on social conservatism. They are certain that Mitt is strong on economic conservatism. Without detailing either’s records, I’d like to mention that the question was too simplistic. Nonetheless, its answer was often the permanent push into one camp instead of another camp. Other factors pushed voters into one camp against another camp.

I’m glad it’s over. Lord bless Romney; forgive me for mean things I said about him and the anger I harbored in my heart.

p.s. Huckabee Republican:

I agree with you. I really was very open to Romney — even excited. But then I saw him speak.

Sorry, but I think you are wrong about “the media” and “Romney supporters”. Because you seem to be a decent person, I will try and comment in a civil fashion. Yes, you know I have a hard time at that.

I am not a Romney supporter, never have been. Mostly, I have criticized Huckabee for his own words, often straight from his website. His defenders always answer, but Romney…..if they respond at all.

Huckabee’s rhetoric, not his actions as governor, are all that is even mildly conservative about the man. Judicial Watch lists him in the top ten corrupt politicians in America. Is Judicial Watch now just part of the “conservative establishment”?

I have challenged many of those who claim to have “done the research” on him to provide some concrete examples of him standing up for the unborn. The best, to date, is that there was a law recognizing an embryo or fetus as a human being…in how many years as Governor? While this is all fine and good, it produced what result in the real world? Nada, zip, nothing. It did not slow or deter or limit the murder of the unborn one bit. Wow, what a record to be proud of. Sure, it sounds good to those who are not deep thinkers, but did it save even one human soul? Doubtfully. It did make for a nice Bill Clinton/Dick Morris/Ed Rollins sound bite though.

Economic conservatism and social conservatism are not separate. They are both grounded in personal responsibility. They both come from a moral basis. “Looting”, in Ayn Rands words, is “stealing from your neighbor” not exactly a “socially conservative” position. Or are “social conservatives” only Socialists opposed to abortion and gay marriage?

What angers me, and makes me comment against my better judgment, is the idea that Socialism is ever anything but EVIL, even if administered by an ex-minister. Instead of admitting that Huckabee is “squishy” on many issues, like the honest author of this blog, too many Huckabee supporters refuse to accept his positions as being less than conservative, because they assume, without evidence, that his “Christianity” is parallel to theirs.

Heck, I have had some of his supporters talk about his “vertical politics” (code for “progressives like Hillary or Obama) while others swear he is a Conservative. Mention how he raised taxes and rather than a honest response (with the sole exception of Maidensong) they either respond that Reagan raised taxes or Romney raised taxes or “he did good works” with the looted money. One commenter even outright stated that he would “do good” with the coercive power of government. Some Conservative. Question his comments about school vouchers and they don’t respond at all.

Rest easy. Mr. Huckabee will soon fade from the National scene, no matter how many Hollywood agents, or bloggers, he hires.

Huckabee doesn’t know “Free to Choose” from “Born Free”. If you don’t, it is available used for only a few dollars at Amazon. “The Road to Serfdom” would also be a good read for Huckabee supporerts who think they are “conservative” and also for those who simply “care”.

Marshall,

I hesitate to even say this, but here you are, commenting on an article that strives to put down the trouble that has been stirred up between the supporters of Huckabee and Romney and you can’t seem to resist taking shots at Huckabee and his supporters. If you can’t try to do as Ms. Maiden has suggested in her article, why do you even bother to comment. It seems clear to me what you are trying to do and that is to keep things stirred up. Give it a break, will you?

Marshall Gill: You touch on two key issues. One is the distinction between social and economic conservatism. The other is whether or not Mike Huckabee is a conservative. Most people define conservatism as adherence to traditional values and customs. It is the opposite of liberal only in the sense that liberal means progressive. Mike Huckabee is a conservative primarily with respect to his Christian values (which is the most important fact for many of his supporters). In fact, he is progressive in many other ways.

The larger issue is that economic conservatism in the absence of moral conservatism is evil because it is exploitative and predatory. The economic conservatives who took over the government in 2000 pretended to be social conservatives but were not. They have run this country into the ground, and the conservative talk show hosts who were their mouthpieces share in the blame. We need a man in the White House who is conservative in social values and progessive in problem solving. That man is Mike Huckabee.

Although I have an inkling suspicion that you enjoy building a case against Huckabee supporters as a whole more than you care about ever getting an answer, here’s a response to your question about Huckabee and vouchers:

http://kstreetforhuck.blogspot.com/2008/01/huckabee-on-school-choice.html

As for socialism:

Raising taxes doesn’t automatically make one a socialist, and it’s really unfair to mention someone’s tax raises as a death knell without even considering the circumstances.

Besides, Huckabee advocates the fairest tax system: the FairTax.

Advocating fair trade doesn’t make one a socialist.

Huckabee does not support socialized medicine.

Huckabee reformed welfare.

I disagree with him on farm subsidies, but I respect his reasoning on the issue, and that hardly makes him a socialist.

I would suggest that we not water down the term socialist to such an extent that it loses its “oomph” when used.

Marshall Gill,
As a Huckabee supporter, one of the issues Mike is strongest on is pro-life. During the primary the Arkansas Right to Life Political Action Committee endorsed Huckabee. Their Executive Director said, “ There are 11 reasons that Mike Huckabee is our choice for President:

The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (1997 Act 984)
The Fetal Protection Act (1999 Act 1273)
The Physician Assisted Suicide Ban Act (1999 Act 394)
The Woman’s Right to Know Act (2001 Act 353)
The Safe Haven Act (2001 Act 236)
The Choose Life Specialty Plate (2003 Act 344)
The Human Cloning Ban (2003 Act 607)
The Right to View Ultrasound Test (2003 Act 1189)
The Right to Receive Nutrition & Hydration (2003 Act 1322)
The Parental Consent for Minor Abortion Act (2005 Act 537)
The Unborn Child Pain Awareness & Prevention Act (2005 Act 1696)

“We are grateful for the outstanding leadership and support of Governor Huckabee in the defense and protection of human life during his ten years as governor, and look forward to continuing our work with him as President of the United States.”

Other state pro-life organizations have either endorsed or made statements supporting Huckabee’s positions.

His economic policies spurred economic growth, but put people and their needs first. From a Christian perspective caring for the needs of others should come first. Certainly, personal responsibility is critical, and Gov. Huckabee does not support handouts, only jobs so that people can make a living.

I agree as this article suggests that we should quit criticizing others and work together to support conservative causes.

Larry, I am not a Romney supporter, how many times do I have to say it? I will try again. I am not a Romney supporter. I am not a Romney supporter. I am not a Romney supporter. Get it?

hsmith4huck, I appreciate your response. I do not vote for those who support the murder of the unborn, but saying “I support the right to life” isn’t the same as actually doing it. You have done your candidate proud.

However, claiming that the “Christian perspective caring for the needs of others should come first.” Implies that Christians shouldn’t bother with “caring” personally but instead should attempt to “care” with the power of coercive government and the welfare State. Hillary “cares” with the power of coercive government also, doesn’t she? She isn’t an ex-pastor so it isn’t “good” caring?

David Anderson, you make my argument for me. “In fact, he is progressive in many other ways.” Interesting how the three posts after yours do not mention this comment. Why is that? Because it is true? You are correct, sir, Mr Huckabee is a “progressive”, and this is why I continue to post in these blogs. Once Huckabee supporters start reading from the same page, I might give it up. If they continue to post contradictions in the same blog post I will feel compelled to respond.

One of you claims he is a “progressive” and another claims he is not. Never, have I seen his supporters sort this out. Which is it? Mr KingdomAdvancer (sorry about the “she” sir I meant no offense, it was an honest mistake) seems to me to say that Huckabee is an economic conservative. You say he isn’t and then KingdomAdvancer does not respond to you, only to me. Because it doesn’t matter what his positions are he is a “Christian”? Hillary and Obama both call themselves “Christian”.

So it really seems to be a cult of personality. WHO is Mike Huckabee, besides being a Christian? Progressive or economic Conservative? If he splits the difference then he is a “moderate”. I expect that none of you will bother to even debate this among yourselves, you will only deride me for bringing it up, and accuse me of being a Romney supporter.

You all tell me to “quit criticizing” Huckabee and “support conservative issues” but then none of you seem to agree on what “conservative issues” are, and don’t seem to mind, either. Fascinating.

Marshall: I would say that Mike Huckabee is conservative in philosophy (strategy) and progressive (creative) in addressing unique problems (tactics). How about that?

I am sorry, I don’t understand you.

Are you saying that the welfare State and the use of coercive government are “creative”? He will create bureaucracies that are somehow efficient and really caring? As opposed to every other bureaucracy ever invented in the history of the human race?

I appreciate your response. Hopefully, some of the others will help to define how you can be “conservative” and “progressive” at the same time.

Conservative, to me, means that you oppose the coercive power of government and support human liberty. By defining oneself as a “progressive” you imply that those who disagree are opposed to ‘progress’, without having to actually argue the merits of your positions. Usually, as Thomas Sowell has pointed out, Leftists or Socialists (sorry Kingdomadvancer but it is a political definition), apply this term to themselves to hide their true intentions. What kind of “progress” do they favor? A slightly different flavor of Socialism?

Are you saying that Huckabee’s government coercion would be good so it would be OK? Can you tell me how? Because he is a Christian is NOT an answer, because as I have pointed out repeatedly, Hillary and Obama both call themselves “Christians”. How, specifically, would Huckabee use government coercion differently than the Leftists? Does it really matter who wields the stick of government power? Even assuming that Huckabee would represent “Christian” government coercion, what would happen when he was no longer in office? Who cares, coronating Mike is all that matters?

Ahh Marshall,

Stirring the pot again? I appreciate you because you make us think.

I personally came to the conclusion that we will never live in a world without government…

Without revolution, we can’t make it go away. And I don’t think it is even possible for human society to exist without the ‘rules’ of governance.

As ‘conservatives’ the best that we can do is elect representatives who will reduce and refine what government must exist.

I have found in my own research that Mike did an excellent job of refining and reducing the big government burocracies in AR.

I did not see where he added to the bureaucratic burden. Yes there were minor tax increases which I know you abhor, and I know you do not think that a net benifit end justifies the means in that regard.

I guess by my judgement, a different individual might just have let government stumble along as ineffective and bureaucratically heavy as it was previously.. and all of the people of AR would have suffered for it.

I’d rather have a smaller fiscally sound operational government, than a large cumbersome corrupt one. And mike was able to provide that.

Out of curiosity, (sincerely) can you point me to a nation or state in the world where the level of conservative governance that you are hoping for exisits? I actually don’t think it is possible!

Unfortunately, when it comes to ‘coercive’ government, I think we will always be stuck with the lesser of two evils… we have to let them ’steal’ our money, but at least we can vote for those who get us the best managed bang for our stolen buck.

As for Mike.. I don’t think we are confused about what he is in our minds. We all know that he is ‘conservative’ in the sense that he tries to appproach every situation with as conservative an application as will bring results in a given situation.

The problem is that sometimes his most conservative approach falls below the expectations of the purists in our midst.

Thanks for stopping by :)

Maidensong, you seem like a really nice lady, and I appreciate your honesty. You pose good questions. I really do apologize for when I sound snide or smart-alek, I feel passionately about liberty and sometimes this gets the better of me.

My problem is not only with Huckabee, but because many of his supporters consider themselves “conservative” they seem the most likely to convince. All of the Presidential candidates have very little to say about spending. McCain comes closest, but I have not seen in his record where he puts his, I mean MY, money where is mouth is.

I am not an anarchist, and government needs money to function. I think that the Libertarians place unrealistic limits on governmental power, but at least they are aiming in the right direction.

As for a government that is as conservative as I would like, you need to purchase or check out of the library, “Free to Choose” by Milton Friedman. In the ’60s Hong Kong came really close to what I think is appropriate for Government. When they did, their standard of living rose to either first or second in the entire world, in spite of the fact that they had the one of the densest populations and almost no natural resources. Human Liberty is what makes people wealthy, not government “largess” which are only wealth transfers, anyway. They had a flat income tax of 5%. Did they vilify the wealthy as people who didn’t “earn” their money? Of course not.

Perhaps Mr. Huckabee did make government more efficient. Perhaps he did make it smaller. His campaign rhetoric seemed to talk about things like “unearned income” and “vertical politics” which are both envy based, in my opinion, and have nothing to do with increasing human liberty. The way his supporters attacked Romney for either having or spending too much, is not conservative at all, again, to me.

I really hope I am wrong. I really do hope that Mr. Huckabee is as conservative as you believe, and not a supporter of “helping” people with other’s taxes. Rarely, if ever, does government “help”. Making people into dependents is wrong, and that is what most, if not all, government programs do.

The idea that changing the way we collect over $3,000,000,000,000,000 per year, the “Fair tax”, is not the solution. In Huckabee’s rhetoric I didn’t hear about any reduction in the size or power of Government. Only about how he would have those more successful pay more, and it does not matter if that is when they earn it, or when they spend it. You will never convince me that many of those who support this idea think that it will increase their personal taxes. They simply think that someone else, who is “richer” than they are will pay more. Envy is a mortal sin for a reason.

And in spite of what Huckabee and Boritz claim, there would be an added bureaucracy to distribute the “pre-bate”. Saying that credit card companies will pay the Feds to do it denies the reality that they would surely pass that cost onto the consumer. Or would they take the costs from their children’s inheritance? There would be no costs because??? It doesn’t add up.

I hope you have a nice weekend.

I just thought of something. I can think of a government that has been as conservative as I would like. It is called “The United States of America” circa around 1791.

Just because something doesn’t exist doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hope to make it come into being.

Marshall,

I didn’t respond to David’s comment, because I didn’t know if I disagreed with him, or if I didn’t understand his intent with the use of the word “progressive.”

I guess Huckabee could be considered “progressive” in the sense of the FairTax, fair trade, infrastructure renewal, etc. I don’t think he is “liberal,” though, because of those positions.

I think you’ve greatly mischaracterized the inspiration behind the FairTax. It would make American companies more competitive abroad. It would make American companies more competitive at home. Yes, it might hurt those wealthy CEOs who have already outsourced all their jobs, but they can move them back here if they have to.

It would tax tourists. Not just the richest tourists, but tourists in general.

It would tax illegal immigrants, pimps, prostitutes, and anyone else dealing under the table. Sure, taxing illegal immigrants on their purchases may hurt business owners hiring them (illegally), but I don’t think we should worry about maintaining lawbreakers’ tax advantages. That’s about the law and fairness, not class warfare.

It would lessen the ability of tax evaders to get around paying their taxes. Certainly, these people may be rich. But that’s irrelevant. They’re cheating the system.

If they’re writing special advantages for themselves into the gargantuan tax code, that should be stopped. There’s not much difference between special “tax breaks” and subsidies. Why should they get special treatment?

Almost any tax system is going to get more from the rich than everyone else–even the Flat Tax. A true flat tax (say, everyone pays $5000 no matter how much they make) would not fund our government.

But the FairTax would do the rich some favors. The government couldn’t plunder their paychecks, their savings, their investments, or their inheritances. They’d only get taxed on what they spent. “Luxury” items would, naturally, be taxed more, but that’s how we did it in the 1800s, anyway.

The FairTax is not intended to reduce government spending and bureaucracy in one fell swoop, because tax reform inandof itself is an extremely uphill battle. Two things politicians (and lobbyists) love: an exploitable tax code, and great government spending. Combine the strength and passion of Congressman and lobbyists, and it will be gruesome trying to get one or the other done. Trying to do both (at the same time) is political suicide.

But the FairTax would make everything much more clear. Tax raises, on the middle class or the rich, would become much more obvious. There’d be no more changing a line or two of the code in order to eke out a little more revenue.

The Prebate would not create more government bureaucracy. If anything, it would constitute a significant downsize from the massive IRS.

I didn’t despise Romney because he is wealthy (although there have been some questions as to how he accomplished that). What I had a problem with, and I think other Huckabee supporters may agree with me here, is that Romney and his supporters acted like he was the “better” candidate or had a right to be thee “conservative candidate”, when, in fact, he was simply the bigger spending candidate.
Having said that, I don’t think it is wrong to want a President who seems to be able to relate to you.

I don’t think “Vertical Politics” is class warfare rhetoric. It’s not about redistributing wealth. It’s about Ordinary Joes feeling like they have a say in their government again.

I really don’t think we’re far off on our views of government welfare. I would like to see the government totally out of that business. But two things:

1.) Just because Huckabee doesn’t want to totally eliminate the welfare system doesn’t mean that he’s the same as the Democrats (That’s the whole essence of welfare reform but not destruction.).

2.) I think we’ll only see government reform its welfare system proportionately to the level that individuals and churches step up to the task. Actually, I take that back. The government won’t just give up their power that easily, because government charity is great for secular humanists. But what I mean is that we can’t expect government to stop helping those really in need until we show that we can take care of them on our own. I don’t know if we’ve shown that yet.

So, no one will be able to purchase things under the table? Why not? I remember my father being involved in a group back in the 70’s who called what they did “the barter system”. Instead of paying for services, and creating taxable income, they traded “barter dollars” tax free. They were limited on spending these credits to others in the group but how many laws would be required to prevent this, or how many hundreds of laws? Once Reagan came into office and cut taxes this pretty much dissolved.

A poll tax, where everyone paid the same amount, might not fund government at it’s current levels. That it why it is imperative to DECREASE SPENDING! Doesn’t the collection of 3 trillion a year offend you? It does me. It isn’t the “governments” or the “peoples” money, but the individuals who earn it.

I agree that government will not give up the power of secular “charity” easily. That is why, Christians especially, (because they are more centered morally) must step up to the voting booth and vote for candidates who will reduce government “charity” rather than simply rearranging it. Huckabee doesn’t seem to be fighting this fight. He seems to claim to give “charity” better. Just my opinion, obviously.

How do you see the government “making the ordinary Joe feel like they have a say”? We all get to vote. All I can think of when I hear that is how the ordinary Joe in America has their hands out constantly. I personally refused to have the government pay for my son’s birth, which cost me over 30k, more than I made in a year at the time. My wife cried when I told her it would be IMMORAL to reach in our neighbor’s pocket to pay for OUR son. But we did it anyway, because it WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! More Christians need to do this, but instead are supporting a man who SEEMS TO ME, to blame it on all those who don’t pay. So instead of questionable terms like “vertical politics” a true conservative should be talking about the morality of paying your own way. I just don’t see this from Huckabee.

The “fair tax” is simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. SPENDING is the problem, not how the Fed collects it’s 3 trill a year, WHICH IS WAY TOO MUCH.

“But what I mean is that we can’t expect government to stop helping those really in need until we show that we can take care of them on our own. I don’t know if we’ve shown that yet.”

Marx wrote “from each according to his ability, to each according to his NEED”. How different is your comment from his? I don’t mean that as an attack. Ayn Rand correctly pointed out that you increase the qualities that you reward financially. If you reward “need” you create more of it. Not exactly what I think most people consider “charity” or “caring”.

Of course I think we need to reduce spending. But, at the same time, I am in favor of increased military spending, a border fence with border patrol, a crackdown on those hiring illegal aliens, a crackdown on AT LEAST criminal illegal aliens (hopefully most of the rest will go home on their own), etc. Moreover, we have to phase out Social Security and Medicare. I think it would be very dangerous (and unfair) to simply abolish it in one fell swoop. So reduced spending is going to be incremental, but not enough to suddenly institute a poll tax.

But the FairTax, as I’ve pointed out, would accomplish a great many things: make our products more competitive at home; make our products more competitive abroad; save some $200 billion and 5.8 billion man hours of tax compliance costs; eliminate politicians’ abilities to manipulate the ridiculously complicated and convoluted tax code in order to provide special benefits to whom they want in the form of tax cuts and deductions (essentially, subsidies); make it more difficult for politicians to raise taxes by making the tax code more transparent and fair; allow people to save money, invest money, give money away, and pass money onto heirs without the government first getting to plunder it; allow the thrifty to get the most bang for the buck by only taxing new retail goods–not used goods; provide the poor with a chance to better their future by giving the Prebate for necessities so that they can save more money; bring off-shored money back into the U.S.; encourage investment in the U.S.; etc.

It’s quite apparent that Americans will try to find a way around any taxation. I guess that’s just human nature. But, as of now, we’ve got illegal immigrants, pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, loophole finders, and people who off-shore their money paying almost no taxes at all. Under the FairTax, anyone who ever buys anything (product or service) from any reputable business (online or on Main Street) will have to pay taxes. In reality, they already sort of do with the average 22% embedded tax. But, in this way, they wouldn’t have the advantage of paying no income or payroll taxes.

When I say the “ordinary Joe feeling like he has a say,” I’m referring to politicians who are out of touch. I’m referring to the elitists. I’m referring to the lifelong politicians who look out only for their own interests. I’m referring to those who only pander to those who will pad their wallets. I’m referring to those who give too much ear to lobbyists.
This isn’t about changing laws or giving government handouts. It’s about having a presidential candidate with a different attitude. Just about all the candidates try to portray themselves that way, but I think Huckabee was more genuine.

I just don’t think the way it seems to you is accurate, but, then, of course, that’s just the way it seems to me, so we may be in an endless quagmire there.

~~Marx wrote “from each according to his ability, to each according to his NEED”. How different is your comment from his? I don’t mean that as an attack. Ayn Rand correctly pointed out that you increase the qualities that you reward financially. If you reward “need” you create more of it. Not exactly what I think most people consider “charity” or “caring”.~~

Besides the fact that the two comments have only one word in common? Just kidding…

My philosophy is that if a person won’t work, neither should he eat. But if that person CAN’T work, we should take care of them (If a person can’t FIND work, we should try to help him out there.) For a variety of reasons, I think it should be done by private charity. But what if private charity doesn’t step up? I’m not saying none necessarily would. But what if none did? Shouldn’t we at least have some type of safety net set up? Or, for the greater good of privatized charity and a free society, should we risk some dying from lack of care?

Please understand that this is an issue which I struggle with and I ask these questions sincerely.

I agree with you Kingdom Advancer. Your points are all well made. We need capitalism to encourage competition and productivity. But it must be tempered with respect for all human life. It is true that this is America and anyone can become anything by hard work, but only true up to a point. That little child born to a single mother in the ghetto today is not on a level playing field with my white grandchild born into relative affluence. We strengthen ourselves when we also work to strengthen others. Perhaps that is the message of the New Testament.

Vote for Huckabee in this critical poll.

http://innovation.cq.com/vpmadness

Mike has made it to round two.

2Ch 7:14 - If my people, which are called, by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Wow. This was some discussion. :-) I’m glad you guys presented that list of pro-life bills. Those are wonderful.

God Bless,
Jonathon

Mike Huckabee

Wow Maidensong! That was an excellent conciliatory article! As a long-time Romney supporter and blogger I appreciate your tone and empathy. To be empathetic doesn’t mean you have to agree. But just the fact that you seem to realize how we see things without laying down your opinions as absolute truths goes a long way to healing the angst I have for Huckabee and Co.

I can say that I feel almost the same way you do, but coming from the Romney side. So in all I agree with about 85% of what you have written, but can allow the other 15% just because you didn’t say it in a “Your wrong, I’m right” attitude.

I blogged for Romney about 1.5 years leading up to the primaries. I was very careful to only promote Romney, and not tear down other candidates, though at times I felt I could select some choice words for my feelings about Huckabee. I once had high esteem for Mike Huckabee when I knew little about him. I have my own reasons for not liking him, which don’t exactly match up with what you stated in your post, but what you wrote does hold true for many.

I don’t know if I’ll have time, but if I do I would certainly like to write a lengthy response and layout how I see the whole Romney - Huckabee feud. And I will do my best to be honest yet civil.

Again, great writing Maidensong. The world could use a lot more people with your unoffending character.

Nate G.
http://planetromney.org
http://committedtoromney.org

err… That link should be
http://committedtoromney.com not .org

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