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Genetic Glitch May Prevent Kids From Learning From Their Mistakes
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Aug 11, 2008 08:25 PM
from the bzzt-ow-bzzt-ow-bzzzzzzzzzt-ooooooow dept.
from the bzzt-ow-bzzt-ow-bzzzzzzzzzt-ooooooow dept.
jamie pointed out an interesting piece being featured in Newsweek that claims a "genetic glitch" may prevent some kids from learning from their mistakes to the same degree as others. "If there is one thing experts on child development agree on, it is that kids learn best when they are allowed to make mistakes and feel the consequences. So Mom and Dad hold back as their toddler tries again and again to cram a round peg into a square hole. [...] But not, it seems, all kids. In about 30 percent, the coils of their DNA carry a glitch, one that leaves their brains with few dopamine receptors, molecules that act as docking ports for one of the neurochemicals that carry our thoughts and emotions. A paucity of dopamine receptors is linked to an inability to avoid self-destructive behavior such as illicit drug use. But the effects spill beyond such extremes. Children with the genetic variant are unable to learn from mistakes. No matter how many tests they blow by partying the night before, the lesson just doesn't sink in."
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Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
Let's party like we don't know any better!
I gather you are one of the many victims of this horrible affliction - also known as "the stupid gene".
Parent
Takes all kinds (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this humanity's insurance policy against catastrophic changes, where the old rules don't apply?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Consider that many kinds of sociopathy have the same kind of behavioral characteristics, but also include lack of guilt, inability to love, and parrotting of a number of emotions.
Correlation != Causation, but the relationship of risky behaviors and inabiity to learn from many kinds of mistakes also typifies the pathology of sociopaths.
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:5, Interesting)
They cast this in a very negative light, calling it a disability, but the inability to learn from mistakes is actually a god send. I don't know how many people I've seen get knocked down at work, or turned down by women and not get back up. It's the people who throw themselves at things against the odds and keeps fighting that truly captures the imagination. I'm not surprised it is as low as 30% when you see the state of politics and society.
Mostly this article is a crock of shit. Genetics is becoming the new astrology, and I see little evidence that what they say really applies on a macro level.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know how many people I've seen get knocked down at work, or turned down by women and not get back up. It's the people who throw themselves at things against the odds and keeps fighting that truly captures the imagination.
That's giving up hope. Learning from your mistakes would be getting turned down by a woman, analyzing what might have led to that outcome, and trying to fix it.
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:5, Insightful)
"That's giving up hope. "
Giving up hope is a function of learning from your mistakes, there are situations where it is perfectly rational to give up hope.
They don't address the complexity of 'learning from your mistakes', one man's mistake is another man's genius idea. History is filled with critics that thought someone was mistaken when they ultimately turned out to be right, especially in mathematics.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's giving up hope. Learning from your mistakes would be getting turned down by a woman, analyzing what might have led to that outcome, and trying to fix it.
That's assuming that 'negative feedback' comes from a mistake. A lot of things require persistence, doing the same thing until it works.
Meeting women, ironically, is one of those things.
1) Just be yourself.
2) That didn't work.
3) Repeat with another woman until it works.
Anything else is going to fail even more catastrophically.
Some things benefit from
segregation (Score:5, Interesting)
Whether it's a disability or not, I think we should seriously consider segregating the two populations and putting them in different classrooms. I bet that, to achieve their best, they'll need radically different teaching methods.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether it's a disability or not, I think we should seriously consider segregating the two populations and putting them in different classrooms.
Can it be called "The Gattaca Initiative"?
I fail to see why that's a bad thing, though (Score:5, Interesting)
TBH, I fail to see why that's a bad thing anyway, assuming that our goal _is_ to give all people the best education we can. (No kid left behind, etc.) As opposed to, say, a some fucked-up kind of show-business to make under-achieving parents of under-achieving children feel better.
Well, or let me better qualify "bad thing." I don't think it's worse than putting everyone in the same classroom and then dumbing it down to the level where even the... _special_ kid on the right can feel special for being able to draw doodles like everyone else.
Most (all?) of Europe isn't afraid to separate kids by skill level, at least at high school level. It wasn't just the USSR and co. I don't think it caused anything bad, so far. Even the USSR and its satellite states, for all we see their economical failures, look around you how many of your co-workers come from their universities. They managed to produce some well educated people. (Then they failed to use them, but that's a different failure.)
Splitting by learning method actually seems to me like the logical next step. Instead of dumping someone into the lowest bracket just because their wiring doesn't fit the teachers' style, maybe there is some other way of teaching them stuff.
And before it sounds like either a nerd-elitist opinion or conversely some kind of plot to isolate and oppress nerds, remember that ADHD and Aspergers' aren't all roses even as educational prospects go. For each ADHD kid that's found his niche with his home computer, there are a couple who just flunk because they just simply get bored to tears in classroom. For each Aspie who's become some great programmer or physicist, there'll be one or two who just got bullied around and discouraged, and maybe backed into some useless interest (as an Aspie you _will_ have a very narrow focus of interest) like remembering all the football scores since 1900. Or flunked because their narrow interests didn't include geography and victorian english literature and God knows what else. Maybe we can guide them down a better path.
Even for neurotypicals, well, maybe they can do better if they don't have to compete with the local autism-spectrum disorder kid. Or at least find a better passtime than taunting the nerd.
It won't be a neat 70/30 split, duly noted, but it will be a good start anyway. We don't build all tools the exact same way, we don't raise all animals the same way (raising chicken can be slightly different from raising sheep), we don't plant all plants the same way, so, umm, I fail to see why we must teach everyone the same way _if_ we have enough proof that their brains do work differently.
It will be more expensive, though. That much is obvious.
Parent
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:5, Insightful)
Genetics is becoming the new astrology
Mod me redundant, but I feel that deserves to be repeated.
Maybe I don't get it, but the last time I checked, we don't really understand how the brain works. Bits and pieces of its operation, yes, but the big picture? Not even close. How is it, then, that some can claim to have such complex aspects, in this case, learning, figured out on a genetic level? Wouldn't that be like someone who barely knows jack about the immune system claiming to have found a genetic reason as to why some people are allergic to cats?
Parent
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:5, Informative)
No one claimed that they had learning figured out a genetic level. What they do claim is that they've pinpointed a gene that corresponds well with different behaviors. And it just so happens that this gene results in a reduction in dopamine tone. And there's been quite a bit of research showing that changes in dopamine tone result in changes in learning and memory (speaking as someone who's worked on a bit of that research).
And I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that producing a transgenic mouse that expresses the variation of the gene associated with "not learning with your mistakes" is going to result in behavioral differences in those animals that might just correspond to the behaviors they've described in humans.
And it's not like we don't already have any examples [wikipedia.org] of a single gene resulting in pretty drastic behavioral and cognitive effects.
What we do know is that who we are is a combination of many genetic, epigenetic, and environmental factors. None of them fully explains who we are, but that doesn't mean that individual factors can't exert a strong force on who we are.
Parent
Re:Takes all kinds (Score:5, Insightful)
What I think is interesting is that people have no problem believing that someone's genetics serve as a template for their hair, eye color, height, etc, but are much more skeptical about the role of genetics role behavior. Behavior is a result of the brain (and the rest of the body), which is just as much a physical item as the rest of you.
That's not to say that genetics can explain everything. There are epigenetic and environmental facts at play that are also important. But an individual's genetics are the starting point, so how is it foolish that to believe that understanding genetics can provide insights. Genetics isn't the end all and be all of understanding people, but it's a very important component.
Parent
Sadly... (Score:5, Funny)
Illicit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Illicit? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
So What's My Excuse? (Score:5, Funny)
I forget to take out the trash.
I'm told about it.
I forget again.
What's my problem??
This explains... (Score:5, Funny)
Why Bart Simpson kept trying to reach the electrified candy, while Lisa's hamster did not. The whole "bzzt...ow...bzzt...ow" sequence is stuck in my head.
Obligatory xkcd (Score:5, Funny)
from the bzzt-ow-bzzt-ow-bzzzzzzzzzt-ooooooow dept.
http://xkcd.com/242/ [xkcd.com]
Re:Bart vs the Hamster (Score:5, Interesting)
(is there nothing that the Simpsons don't have an appropriate quote for?)
Scientology and abortion.
Scientology because Nancy Cartwright (the voice of Bart) is a die-hard scientologist, and (if you believe the rumors) has threatened to quit if they poke fun at it. The closest they got was "The Joy of Sect" (wherein most of Springfield joins a cult.)
Don't know the reason behind the abortion stance. Maybe because it's too hard to joke about tastefully.
Parent
Re:Bart vs the Hamster (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't know the reason behind the abortion stance. Maybe because it's too hard to joke about tastefully.
Thats where South Park comes in.
Parent
Re:Bart vs the Hamster (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Attention deficit disorder (Score:5, Informative)
Sounds like ADD to me. I've got ADD and although I'm very intelligent, I haven't been an 'A' student since freshman year of high school. I can learn things well, but I continue the same behaviors that prevent me from succeeding, such as reading Slashdot (among other things) instead of doing homework.
I took Adderall in school, which I believe stimulates dopamine and does indeed make it easier to do my homework. Also makes me test positive for meth, tell jokes that don't make sense to anyone but myself, and sleep 5 hours per night.
I was going somewhere with this post, but as usual, I got distracted. Anyway, I hope this perspective can inform someone or at least make the other folks with ADD feel like they're not alone, even when so many people don't even think ADD is real.
Re:Attention deficit disorder (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Attention deficit disorder (Score:4, Insightful)
I know that's a joke, but if you find yourself fucking things up in ways that don't make sense to you, you may benefit from seeing a psychiatrist. Sometimes the drugs can turn people's lives around.
I wouldn't have graduated from college without my Adderall.
Parent
Re:Attention deficit disorder (Score:5, Insightful)
Give yourself structure. Make yourself a list of things you need to do every day. You could use paper, or be like me and get a $100 Palm Pilot. To me, mine is worth every penny. My list includes showering, walking the dog, getting haircuts, going to job interviews, getting my car inspected, paying my taxes, and pretty much every other thing I need to do.
Other things are make sure your hygiene is good. Shower every day if you can. Get exercise. Ride your bike for half an hour every day, if possible. I've really taken a liking to cycling and it's helped to put my life in the right direction and help my lose lots of weight. Eat an egg for breakfast everyday; it'll make you feel good. Don't eat junk food.
Keeping your body in shape helps you think more clearly, and the running theme is here that providing yourself with structure and goals is the best thing you can do for yourself this side of medication. I swear that giving myself some structure is the only reason I was able to graduate from college on time and the only way I'll succeed in making my career go somewhere and being the husband my wife deserves.
Parent
So that's what causes it! (Score:5, Funny)
So /. editors don't learn from publishing dupes? [slashdot.org]
OK, maybe this isn't a dupe (diffrent researchers, maybe?), but I don't want to bring the groupthink's wrath down on me by RTFA.
Always comes down to our DNA (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not surprised anymore at articles such as this one. Our DNA is basically a blue print of who we are. Our limitations, strengths, etc...
While we are also a product of our environment, it's interesting to see how as we move forward in the research of the human body and mind, many of our issues which we would have deemed "environmental", are actually genetic.
So, the question is, can we fix this? And then, if we fix it, are we a different person? or just better? Is our individuality really based on our DNA? what does that make of the human soul? Not a religious person by nature, I do think there is a God, but, I believe that humanity has the right and the responsibility to learn as much of itself as possible, in order to survive and to improve as a species.
To me, an interesting question that raises is about our soul, such as, is our individuality link to it? or not? Having read and seen documentaries that a person on their death bed loses weight as they migrate from life to death. Many believe that our "soul" has a quantitive weight.
Who are we? If one could fix a learning disability by "re-wiring" our DNA, then, what's this "soul" thing to us?
Could it be that really, our version of heaven is actually our ability to learn about ourselves to the point where we can engineer our own immortality?
After all, for many, heaven is a blissful eternity of life after death. That's what many religions sell in their brochure :P (I said MANY, not all)
Is our goal to achieve long life by understanding our DNA? is this really what our reward will be? our quest for immortality lies within our reach in research and understanding of ourselves and what makes us really tick? :)
This thread may sound off beat to the topic at hand, but, I personally think it that there is a link.
Being able to fix a person by DNA so that they can finally "learn" from their mistake, is a behavioral fix. Done using medical treatment. To me, this means that there could be a day where "Psychology" as we know it might actually end, and DNA fixes could actually be the cure to depression, etc...
Cheers!
Holy crap, I read TFA and... (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's tacky to reply to your own posts, but I wanted to add something here. According to the article:
In about 30 percent, the coils of their DNA carry a glitch...
One of the strongest and most counterintuitive findings in this nascent field is that children with a sweet temperament, which is under strong genetic control, are the least likely to emulate their parents and absorb the lessons they teach, while fussy kids are the most likely to do so.
DNA variants can protect children from bad parenting.
Both views--that everything is genetic and that parents can transform a child like a lump of clay--are as wrong as wrong can be.
I think these finding have serious implications for how we look at religion, and how it can or cannot work effectively to shape people's behaviour from the time they are children to adults. Some people -- at least 30 per cent -- are hard-wired to find it difficult to deal with "sin" without feeling guilt, shame, failure and worthlessness. They will either end with serious psychological and spiritual h
I think I have this... (Score:5, Funny)
Epic fail (Score:3, Funny)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZZXslsLDLs&fmt=18 [youtube.com]
On the bright side (Score:5, Interesting)
off topic? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are several studies available on "the Google" where you can find that genetically, we as a species are bound to obey the genetic code we are born with, whether that is good or bad. This is just another example. You'll see in my journal that the MWNN regarding atheists. This supports the atheist understanding of the world. We are born as we are, mostly accidental, or luck of the draw regarding genetics. There is no deity responsible for this. What a reprehensible thought that an all powerful and all knowing deity would do this to people?
As a hobby, I try to build small autonomous robots, and generally speaking most people believe that the human experience is the 100% value or perfect way of interacting with the world. What they forget, and what I like to call 'failure mode' is that we humans are anything but perfect: bad vision, autism, this story's problem, and many other failures. Ever bump into the wall in the dark? There is another failure.
We are far from perfect, hardly worthy of being called a creation of an all powerful being. Destructive behavior is what we excel at. Brilliant design, eh?
Back on topic: for the most part, we are finding genetic reasons for many problems with the human race. Even if they could all be corrected, I'm not sure it will improve our situation. I sometimes think that we are trying to save nature's discards. Amazing really. Apparently war fixes some of the overpopulation, or used to.
The answer to such problems is fantastically unimaginable. How do you fix the discards and keep population withing the realms of what the planet can support? China has taken a step in that direction and it has caused unimaginable hardships for their population; selling babies, hiding from the government, fear of things that are only natural.
So, what are we to do with things like this? What are we to do with people like this? Fix them, or abort them?
Original article (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Original article (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Without this 30% (Score:4, Funny)
there would be nothing on YouTube but cats.
Also, survival traits in some cases may benefit the species more than the indivdual - some of us are needed to find out what new things can or can't be done. Some of us are needed to hold the beer.
I would call this (Score:4, Funny)
George Bush syndrome.
Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:3, Funny)
Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:5, Funny)
Unless your business gets big fat government subsidies. Then you'd be Iowa.
Parent
Re:Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:5, Funny)
Kinda like voters?
Parent
Re:Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:4, Insightful)
When there's a red button and a blue button and they both give electric shocks, maybe the stay-at-homes are the most intelligent of them all. oh yeah and there's a green button but it's in the ceiling and nothing happens when you stretch for it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Using the topic to push a personal political opinion is flamebait. A reply which is exactly the opposite illustrates the irony of the argument, and thus is funny.
The next few people playing off of the original joke with their own variation are hoping to get caught up in a time-honoured slashdot tradition of karma-whoring threads.
Re:Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Refusing to learn from mistakes? (Score:5, Insightful)
The major difference between the US and other "first world" societies is that US politics very rarely includes the concept of "good will towards all". The notion, that "what is good for my neighbor is good for me" simply doesn't fly around here. Electing politicians on merit implies that we'd be electing people to serve the *public* trust, rather than our own individual interests.
Granted, I"m painting things with a broad brush, but that's pretty much the impression I get.
Why is it this way? I honestly don't know. It could have something to do with our frontiersman roots being so recent in our country's past - that we're still one nation of individual people, rather than an individual nation of one people.
Parent
Re:Wow, they should study the Slashdot editors (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Interesting... (Score:4, Insightful)
It should read "self-destructive behavior such as substance abuse".
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You'll have to pardon me for not discussing the details of some highly personal experiences on Slashdot. In the particular instance I'm thinking of, about two years ago I pretty much got a personal guided tour of my own unconscious with respect to a certain issue that was causing me a great deal of pain at the time, and it allowed me to go ahead and make some really drastic changes over the next few months and pretty much completely remake my life. That isn't something that could have happened without a g