Reclaiming Judo

"Reclaiming"? You seem to imply quite a bit here that people may not
necessarily agree with.

I don't see any particular need to go splitting Judo into different
movements...

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http://www.deja.com/

He removed any techniques (from his starting base of several styles of
Jujutsu) that did not follow his dictum of maximum efficient use of
energy, and moved any 'dangerous' techniques that were retained to the
practice of kata, rather than randori.

You're thinking of randori, not the whole of Judo.

This is a good question that you pose.  I don't know the answer, but I still think it is a great question.  I think that returning judo to it's more pure form would destroy the complexity of what it has become.  Example:  if judo players focused on striking techniques as well as throwing and grappling, then the level of throwing techniques would suffer and deteriorate.  Judo would be nothing more than karate with half-assed throws.  I mean look at other styles that include throws into their system.  Their throws aren't anywhere near as effective and clean as judo throws.  (I don't mean this to slam striking based styles that include takedowns-some is better than none.)  But throwing is not their emphasis, striking is.  It is my understanding that Kano wanted to increase the popularity of judo because of the waning interest in it by the general population.  He made it into more of a sport, to protect it from extinction.
Judo is already well defined and organized.  More so than most other arts.  I have a feeling that including the combat related aspects of it's past are gone for good.  This is an unfortunately reality.  I love playing judo.  But it does not include strikes and striking is a part of fighting.  Many judo purists (judo-heads) will argue that throwing and grappling are all you need.  Some of them are right because they are super bad asses and they have the room to talk.  I am not of this elite class of judo player and therefore must supplement my judo training with a form of striking.  Striking is an excellent way to setup a throw.  And if I can throw someone, it's their ass (dare I say, "I'm quite scrappy on the ground.").  With the exception of a bjj player.  Bjj guys are superior on the ground then the typical judo player.  But that is another matter altogether.
Basically, judo won't shift from it's sports related position. It is too beneficial being a sport and an Olympic sport at that.  I can't say I really blame the powers that be.  Being a sport gives it a better name in the eyes of many within western culture.
However, to be a better fighter, a judo player should learn how to effectively strike (Muay Thai or Sanshou [Chinese kickboxing] are complementary to a throwing and grappling man.  Just as a strike fighter would benefit from a throwing and striking art.  Crosstraining - the cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast!

I'm interested in hearing from my fellow judoka.
 
 

That's a common misconception. There is a subset of judo technique that
is allowed in randori, but there are also techniques that are not
allowed in randori but are trained in other ways and just as much a part
of judo.

Oh, and if you don't think the throwing techniques are
combat-orientated, try letting a third dan shoulder throw you on
concrete some time and then reconsider your position. ;-)

Regards,
Chris

Yeah, but Judo doesn't allow the really,really dangerous stuff in randori.
So they don't REALLY train them.
And although these other arts that don't do much randori at all don't practise
the dangerous stuff in randori, they don't practise the safer stuff in randori
either, so therefore they would be better at the dangerous than the Judoka.
Logically...

Gi

Come on, Gi, you know it's really just an excuse for sweaty guys to hug
each other for a few minutes.

Thomas

Judo is an olympic sport, so the idea of mainstream Judo becoming
combat oriented is slim. Still, take away the mats, and don't teach
the bad guys ukemi, and those throws would do serious dammage. Still,
Judo doesn't have everything, and like anything else, must be
supplemented.

What relationship do the "dangerous" Judo throws have to the "safe"
ones. I've studied some jujutsu so wich throws aren't allowed in
randori? Can I assume that wrist, small joint lock throws, and the
armbar shoulder/hip(overthe back) throw are the ones not allowed, Would
they allow the aikido versions of these throws that when done correctly
cause no harm(except for the hyperextended elbow throw). -But or are
there variations of legal Judo throws that are perhaps for quick work?

You seem to have the idea that if it's not done in randori format, it's
not training. I suspect that if you tried this logic on any sports
coach he/she would just as strongly disagree as I do. You would be
hard pressed to find any sport in which the *only* training is done by
actually doing the sport.

No... and I'm sure you know the fallacy here.

>
> Gi

Don't knock it til you've tried it.
There are a few Judoka you might like rolling with.
http://www.judoamerica.com/sandiego/valerie/

Gi(Some guards, just aren't worth passing)

It only needs supplementing if you don't learn the full repetoire of
Judo. To be honest, it's not exactly easy to find a Judo instructor
that's capable of teaching the full range of Judo.

As for the damage caused by throws... it's an idea that's more
understated than understood. Taiotoshi, for example, is designed
to 'whip' uke to the ground in a snapping motion, breaking uke's hip.
Seoinage needs very little change to dislocate the shoulder or break
the elbow on the way over. Kawazugake tends to break the leg (although
not as certain as my first two examples)

The idea that Judo is not *already* a 'combat' art (more than the
Olympic sport many believe the extent of Judo is), is a
misunderstanding of Judo based on a lack of knowledge. Absolutely true
that Judo is often taught in the beginning as a competition sport, and
much of the 'combat' techniques aren't even learned until well into the
black belt ranks. But don't hold Judo as a whole to the standards of a
class being taught by a shodan.

Please, by all means, don't misunderstand me.  I would much rather throw someone than smack 'em around a bit.  I especially dig armbars the most.  I am a judo man and always will be.  I train in judo to know how to fight, not how to play a sport.  I find it to be far more effective than anything else I've encountered.  I do see judo as a combat art and hardly as a sport (of course this is me).  I've been hit harder and received more punishment from judo players than from any other style of martial arts.  Most people from other styles come into judo thinking that we're not shit.  We don't kick and punch each other.  Therefore it must not hurt.  Yet somehow, after getting their asses throttled by a bunch of green belts, they don't come back.  And we both know why that is.  :)   And I'm just talking about our standing work.
The response I receive when stating, " I play judo." to non judo martial artists is, "Yeah, well I train in blah, blah, blah."  Their defiance to the word "play" is astounding.  Judo as a sport is a lot rougher than many other martial arts.  I beleive that judo guys are of a tougher breed than most.
All that being said, I still like to hit people when they deserve it.  Because sometimes, dominating a person on the ground and fucking with their head just isn't enough.

i_am_zombie
 
 

Shodan means First Step. This is often forgotten. I doubt whether anyone
below the rank of Sandan is really ready to teach as a head instructor.
Depth of background is very important in any of the martial arts. This
depth will allow them to discuss methods of training that may not be used
anymore such as makawara (SP?) training in karate or kata which isn't used
generally in Judo 'till the Blackbelt ranks as I understand it ( Ben correct
me if I'm wrong!) Also many techniques just aren't shown or used when
training with or to lower belts. You need the knowledge of these techniques
to avoid allowing the establishment of bad habits which could interfere
later on.

............Tom.............

> [snip]Would

> [snip]

Aaah...may be not. Siho nage, doesn't even need modification its
execution, can have your head banged to the ground easily if not simply
knocking all the air out of you.

I'm wondering if siho-nage is legal in Judo IF I could pull it off.

Dave

Specifically? Kawasugake, Daki-age, Kani Basami (within the last few
years...), Kubinage, Seoi-age, Kote Gaeshi... and those are just the
ones that come to mind... I'm sure there are others...

In Judo, you are allowed to only 'attack' the elbow joint in
competition. In training, (and I'm speaking of the club I train at),
we train with Kote Gaeshi, and the many possible variations off of it.
The more 'dangerous' throws we will occasionally demonstrate, and
practice, but NOT in randori. Some throws you simply cannot
practice... (Seoinage in the form of Katsugi Gatame, for example...
over the back one-armed throw with the uke's palm/elbow joint pointing
up... or Seoi-age.) Most of Aikido wouldn't be allowed in competition,
although we do a very small subset of Aikido where I train. Much of
Aikido involves attacking joints that wouldn't be allowed in Judo.

In general, no... however, there are throws that are virtually
identical that are in both Judo and Aikido.

Certainly! Many Judo throws can *very* quickly be converted 'on the
fly' to a much 'dirtier' throw. (I think this is what you mean...)
For example, an uppercut or 'clothesline' on your opponent as you move
in for Osoto Gari.

And in Judo, this is actually quite different from most styles of
Karate... In most styles of Karate, a Shodan knows 98% of what a
Sandan knows, the major difference is in the skill level... In Judo,
this simply isn't true. You can be a Sandan in Judo, and still be
*learning* new things about Judo.

Absolutely correct. In Judo, it depends of course on the organization
you belong to, but I first learned Nage no Kata as a requirement for
Shodan... There's not all that many Judo kata (generally given as 7),
but very few Judoka know all of them. (And those that do, are generally
quite high-ranked...)

> [snip] or kata which isn't used

> [snip]

As far as I understand it, in Judo, you learn kata just for passing the
grading. After that, it's back to the usual randori and other stuff.
You're not gonna practise those techniques seriously like in other
martial arts. You're introduced to those "dangerous" techniques, but
you're not gonna be practising them.

Dave

>
>

For that matter, don't hold judo to the standards of the judo being taught by
the modern Kodokan. One has to admit
that there has been a decline in the emphasis of old judo in favor of modern
competive judo for at least fifty years.
The result is that fewer and fewer people
really understand the full scope of judo.
For example, the recent kata videotapes
produced by the Kodokan are just terrible.

I must belong to one of the rarer forms of Karate then. When I compare my
level of knowledge to the Yodan who was my first instructor I feel like a
rank beginner.

In Goju there are only 8 classical kata. Each has it's own area of focus.
There are various other training drills that are done like kata & they all
have a purpose or teach something but they are not kata. It would be quite
possible to learn Goju without these, just less conveniently

..........................Tom...........

Written by someone who does know much about karate. Levels of
technique and understanding are revealed in karate just as in judo.
In neither art do shodan usually know all of the kata or even have
an appreciation of all of the techniques. Perhaps in some third
generation, stripped down sport karate schools everything is taught
by brown belt, but that is hardly representive of karate as a whole.

It is true, however, that old judo was very inclusive and is an enormously
broad and varied martial art. Indeed, my judo teacher considers a
shodan in karate as normal training for a judoka. Oddly, my karate teacher
considers a shodan in judo as normal training for a karateka, but that I
think is a bit more unusual.

That is a fair criticism, but kata training should not be like that. In any
art --
judo, karate, iaido -- you can tell
easily when people practice just
the kata without doing any underlying
basic practice or drill practice. The
kata look plastic -- as
in the Kodokan's kata videotapes
for example.

In schools that really care about kata,
there is plenty of freer and more
realistic practice to develop the technique
and techniques displayed in the kata.
Then in demonstrating the kata, you
get a more natural and dynamic interplay
between tori and uke and it shows.

And besides, what person who really
loves the art can resist actually playing
around with the techniques?

You might find that you prefer Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.It is really just a offshoot
of Judo that is more concerned with ones ability to fight than most Judo now
is.

Gi

##Come on, Gi, you know it's really just an excuse for sweaty guys to
hug each other for a few minutes.##

I do it on a regular basis. And yeah, sometimes gaurd can be a nice
place to be. :-)

The flying scissors has been banned, as are any moves that attack a
joint other than the elbow, at least theoretically. An armbar can be
carried to the ground from standing, but it must have already taken
effect before the two go down. Most of the moves tasken out of Judo
were strikes, and there is an entire kata dedicated to 'self-defense'
moves.

Thomas

<snip>

Randori is what makes Judo so effective. There are elements of Judo,
speciffically strikes and some grapples, that Judoka do not practice in
randori, but other stylists do. To become really proficient in those
areas, I would suggest crosstraining.

I like the Judo idea of combining throws, grapples, and strikes, but
there are areas that Judo excelles at, and areas that it could be
improved.

I'm not good enough to do that kind of thing in a real fight yet. When
I do, for example, O Soto Gari, for example, the guy moves with force
and falls from about four or five feet in the air, and that would take
most people out. I don't doubt what you say, but I can't rely on it,
at least not yet.

Judo at least aknowledges most aspects of combat, but there are other
arts that are better at certain aspects. One could train solely in
Judo and would probable be all right, but crosstraining will definatly
improve you game. Karate and Judo both have strikes and throws, but
Karate has better strikes and Judo has better throws, because of
emphasis.

Thomas

I'd say even Judo class could focus on one's ability to fight by simply
not letting tournament rules dictate what and how everything's done and
taught. I can see nowadays even classes for non-competitors,
instructors' teaching is still entirely affected by tournament
requirement. Judo tournament practically defines Judo. But, why? No
wonder why the Aikikai folks don't like to see competition in Aikido.

Dave

Actually bjj is more concerned with playfighting in matches than real fighting.
BJJ types get upset when you pull weapons on them in matches. They also
seem to think it unfair when you call some of you buddies over to help out.

I knew you'd take the high road.
It's good to have you back.

I have seen BJJers laugh at firing squads and take on roaving gangs of katana
weilding samurai....
no... no I haven't...
I can no longer perpetuate this lie...
What you say is true.
BJJers do indeed get upset when attacked by armed madmen.

Again.... you are right.
Being attacked by multibles has indeed "upset" many BJJers.

Gi

I have also seen this near-religious adherence to the restrictive rules of
Judo.
And after all these years of doing submission I have seen no evidence that
straight leglocks, shoulderlocks and neck cranks are more dangerous than elbow
attacks and trachea crushes.
Why the local Judo clubs don't say "the hell with Olympic Judo" and allow these
fun and effective techniques,I cannot say....but I fear it is just an aversion
to the unknown.

Gi

Would you believe that she was the only halfway decent Judo chick I could find
a photo of on the net?
It seems Judo is another sport dominated by lesbians at the high end.

Gi

<snip>

I haven't spent any time looking myself. Maybe if you check the
Japenese teams. We had a couple of very nice looking girls in the
club, but they tend to drift away after a week or two.

Lipstick or otherwise? And is it any better in vale tudo? I don't
imagine getting elbowed in the nose would do anything for someone's
looks.

Now, howsabout we start a thread on genetic disposition towards
homnosexuality, the corelating levels of testosterone, and the
resulting athletic prowes?

Well out of curiosity I checked the X-posts on our latest troll post
"All Martial Artists are Punks" and sure enough he had one on
alt.homosexual and he was looking.

Can you possibly briefly explain these techniques,

I don't know exactly what these throws are, I think the ryu I've
studied use different names. I guessed that Kote Gaeshi is the
hyperextended arm over the back throw.

Do Judo techniques "attack joints". For instance are there wristlocks?

It seems you can do a wristlock turned in close to the body, Is it wise
to assume Judo would?

Uh huh, But thats not the throw part is it?

Well in jujutsu the "small" joint throws (as I learned it) tend to move
with the defender much farther away from attacker than "gi" throws, and
armpit shoulder throws. The "body strike" if you will is supposed to
lift up the attacker, as with a hip/shoulder throw, are there a group
of these close /gi throws that are external to randori. I'm just
imagining right now...

The armpit throw I'm describing is striking the pit with shoulder,
lifting the body up and off balance. What I think I mean by hip
shoulder throw is grabbing the lapel, stepping in and turning to face
same direction as your opponent and striking upwards with the back to
lift opponent up and over your back. Are there simular throws to these
in JUDO that are outside of randori practice?

What is a flying scissors?

> That's a common misconception. There is a subset of judo technique
> is allowed in randori, but there are also techniques that are not
> allowed in randori but are trained in other ways and just as much a
> of judo.

From what I've seen of Jujutsu, some old photographs with reference to
Kodokan look closer to what I've learned than what I think of as Judo.
Over time I've learned that kodokan is the root of Judo.

> Oh, and if you don't think the throwing techniques are
> combat-orientated, try letting a third dan shoulder throw you on
> concrete some time and then reconsider your position. ;-)

I used to train Jujutsu and aikido on a basketball floor, there were
alos mats availiable. My comments on the hard floor is that the air
rushing out of the lungs (read splat) is practically idential to the
mat, But its really the bony corners, elbows knees, shoulder blades
that are more vulnerable.

> Regards,
> Chris

> Yeah, but Judo doesn't allow the really,really dangerous stuff in
randori.
> So they don't REALLY train them.
> And although these other arts that don't do much randori at all don't
practise
> the dangerous stuff in randori, they don't practise the safer stuff
in randori
> either, so therefore they would be better at the dangerous than the
Judoka.
> Logically...

Depends on what relationship the really really 'dangerous' stuff has
too the randori stuff in judo and the arts in question. In ninpo hip
over the shoulder armpit throws 'can' have a considerably different
feel than the small joint lock, elbow lock, So since my impression of
Judo throws is they do the "pop up" throw verses a lot of the outside
movements and leverage of jointlock throws I've learned considerably
different in feel. So logically aikido would be better at joint throws
than Judo, and judo would be better at hip throws.

> Gi

"EisMadchen" <eisma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010128193514...@ng-fs1.aol.com...

I started Judo in 1952 and it was really different in the States then.
I had practiced for about 7 years before I found out they actually had
competition! About the time I joined the Air Force and then went to
Japan and Okinawa, I did little in the way of modern shiai. We did ko-
haku shiai, but that was about it. I did fairly well in tournaments
after that, but stopped when I was 25 years old. Mainly because of the
chance of getting hurt and having my bosses come down on me, and the
other is that I finally got thrown in a shiai by some brown belt! Not
that I was too good for them, it was just I knew then my days were over
in the tournament world. So, I began to assist sensei teaching and
stuck with that for a decade or more. So, I think my younger days was
mroe like Kano wanted it, but can't be sure.

During my last teaching days I changed over to the “new Judo” as some
called it. It wasn’t long until I just stopped it completely. No real
satisfaction. By then hardly any of my friends would do kata or
anything else, so I was out on a limb. Judo had changed so much it
took all the fun out of it for me. It is hard to explain what I mean
by “change.” But, it was just not the same old stuff I had learned
years before and the enjoyment was gone. Now I’m a little too old to
start over. But, hopefully someday I’ll see some old traditional Judo
on TV : ) Har, har -- that’s a laugh.

Jeff

--
Hidari seoiotoshi is great

Good point.

Perhaps to be more effective when you do pull one?

Which will be of great consolation to you that at least you hurt one of them
before the rest kicked your skull in? Me, I would prefer running away,
unscathed.

Ketho

"To search for the old is to understand the new."

'Upset' beats 'jaw flappingly surprised' by a long shot.

You don't drive a dray horse by patting him on the ass with your hand.
The history of the world is the evolution of the weaker learning to
overcome the stronger by the application of intelligence and technology.
You don't eat with your hands; why in the world would you want to fight
with them?

I'm happy that BJJ people don't commonly carry weapons or train with, or
against, them.
I'm never going to strip down to my speedos and hire someone to ring a
bell to start the fight, so the prospect of tussling with one of them
seems a bit remote.

I think we all deem 'running away'- although, at my age and infirmity,
I'm generally going to stride away at a brisk pace while looking over my
shoulder to see if they've gotten up yet <g>
I'm glad that BJJ people don't learn to fight with, or against, weapons.
It means that a very strong art has an exploitable weakness in a real
confrontation.
It's the same as a 'karate' school that doesn't require free sparring.
When you ignore a *very* common aspect of martial art, someone will take
advantage of that lack.
--
Chas
"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/Keepsafe.htm (Keepsafe & Pocket Pal)
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/ (Kuntao Silat Association, International)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cuecase.htm (Fine Cases and Accessories)
http://members.nbci.com/kilap/cane.html (Combat Cane for Cripples)

<snip>

True, but if backed into a corner, I'll die happier knowing that I sent
a couple of them ahead of me. Martial artisit should take pride in
their work; we're trained killers, after all.

Thomas (haven't gotten to that nap yet)

<snip>

##[not me]Certainly! Many Judo throws can *very* quickly be

in for Osoto Gari.##

It can be. Osoto Gari is usually taught with a lapel grip or, if
you're big, a kind of headlock from the side. If you palm heel his
throat, grab, and then push/reap, you get the same throw plus the
throat strike.

Thomas

##Now, howsabout we start a thread on genetic disposition towards

resulting athletic prowes?##

Can't say I'm surprised. :-)

<snip>

I'm not very good at describing these things in words, so please bear
with me.

a flying scissors is an attack to the legs using your legs. You get
your opponent standing between your legs, then 'scissor' them together,
tripping him and bringing him down. Think of the flutter kick when you
swim. Some guy was fighting a Judoka that hadn't been defeated in
seven years or something unnatural like that, and he kept doing this
scissors move, not as a takedown attempt, but to dammage the knees. It
worked, and the move got banned.

Arts that train with and expect weapons, such as judo and karate,
would be less upset.

You might note that the vast majority of real martial arts train to
use weapons and virtually all train to defend against them. Using
tools is human and weapons are the basic tools for fighting. It is
a very artificial or stylized situation where they do not come into
play or at least threaten to come into play.

Somehow I think much, much worse things might happen to you
if you decide to go that route.

If someone is running around just intending to pull weapons they need
to chill a bit. As one of my old MA instructors taught me a conflict is
only resolved if the counter is just.

I think you've misinterpreted the stance of aikidokan, ninpokan, silat
etc. etc. and other MA's that don't spar, win or enter UFC matches. We
don't plan to outnumber pull weapons and attack to take away the UFC
title. I think that the assertion that 'my kungfu is better than
yours' mainly stems from BJJ, due to UFC. And people making the
comments(well me) about BJJ ground pins being open to these attacks are
just stating the obvious, without debating the h/h superiority of MA
technique.

If you want to debate the H/h superiority of BJJ versus non sparring
Japanese Bujutsu you can look at police reports of real attacks, or
send someone in your dojo to attack a peacefull ninpokan or aikidokan.
It seems that for some reason BJJ is more interested in the ladder. I'm
not even interested in debating the superiority of one form over the
other, since all forms seek different goals.

If you believe that UFC or whatever makes your MA superior in everyway
than you have no need to find out anything about other MA. I think
that I am just offering you some insight into why people may study non
sparring and therefore non UFC approved arts.

Shot

No thanks Chris! I've always considered the sport aspect of judo to be
a relative thing anyway when it came to the issue of non
combativeness. I mean I've watched advanced judo players going at it,
and awsome is the only properly descriptive term that comes to mind.
Cheers -- Cicero

I suspect that you're thinking of Yasuhiro Yamashita... and I doubt if
anyone was stupid enough to try to INTENTIONALLY injure Yamashita...
it's the boxing equivalent of walking up to Tyson and slapping him in
the face. The result isn't likely to be pleasant. But you are correct
as to the reason Kani Basami was banned... too many knee injuries.

For a look at Kani Basami (Flying Scissors), you can go to:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kanibasa.gif

Hello Jeff. Something similar happened to me in a martial art that I
began my training with. Old style Taekwondo was a heavy duty kick butt
martial art that was primarily shotokan leavened with native Korean
kicks, with their own spin on forms and self-defense techniques. I
liked it because it was rugged, very traditional, and hardcore.

Then sometime during the 1970s the Korean government decided to 'sport
up' the martial art. Almost immediately deep stances were eliminated
in favor of VERY shallow, pretty much casual stance work. Oh there was
a whole host of changes to practical applications and sparring rules as
well, and thanks to a combination of pressure from the Korean
government and commercial realities many of the old style schools
either made the changeover or went out of business altogether as the
popularity of these far, far easier schools increased.

Well, I was young enough to switch from Taekwondo to kung fu without
too much of a cultural shock; but I wasn't a happy camper. It's sad
when major organizations pander to pressure groups. Cicero

No way.
BJJers are far more realistic in their view of violence.
That is why they're BJJers.

And when they face guys with machete's they die with the consolation of knowing
that at least they tried to do the right thing.
I have no weapons training, yet I will face any of you if I get a club, a knife
or a gun.

You're crazy, I've seen tons of fights, few involve weapons beyond a shoe.

Gi

Grab neck throat windpipe and throw. Is this an official kodokan move
that you are taught?

That's a debatable statement.

"...vast majority of real martial arts train to use weapons..."

Quite obviously an incorrect statement by the most generous of
standards.

Good hyperbole...

Absolutely true.

Absolutely false.

Gi... you're making sense... this is a frightening thing...

Why do you think that people that intentionally lie on their backs
with people between their legs have a realistic view of violence?

Perhaps, but I think I have a much better chance at dealing with
weapons having practiced it thousands and thousands of times
that someone with no practice. I especially think that practicing
an art that is fundamentally defensive against weapons is a
great advantage over practicing one that assume the opponent
will not have a weapon.

Yeah, but that is because you are stupid. Are you seriously suggesting
that weapons training does not give a person an advantage in a
weapons fight? Would you really like to have a shootout with a
top notch pistol shooter?

Then you don't really know what a fight is or you hang around with
really stupid people.

Perhaps you could name a few martial arts intended for real fighting
that do not train with weapons? Obviously all of the Japanese arts
incorporate weapons training.

I note that the "or threaten to come into play" was clipped.
That changes the meaning considerably.

You are not, but that is nothing new.

You just said it.
BJJers understand that you might not be able to dictate the terms of the fight.
You are quite realistic about the difference between men and women.
Do you think if a 200 pound weightlifting man suddently attacked you intent on
rape that there is a reasonable chance that you will be forced onto the ground?
And have him between your legs?

Yes.Your chance is 2%, your neighbors is 1%.
Good luck with that.

In my school we raelly don't even discuss selfdefense at all.
We just train technique for 20 minutes then fight for about 75 minutes.
Yet despite this.... I think the guys in my school would do very well in
streetfights.

Maybe, but that is beside the point.
I am stupid.
So take advantage of me.
I like it like that.

Sure it does.
But I think a boxer would have a better shot against an armed assailent than a
karateka... because they are tougher,meaner and more athletic.
THAT is the most important thing in real fights.

Sure, you gotta do something , I guess.
I shot a cat with a pelet gun tons of times.
But don't worry, it was already dead.

Well your half right.

Gi

I don't think it is in the kodokan syllabus, but I was taught that by
on eof our brown belts.

Thanks for the info and the link. I'm not sure about the personalities
involved, but I believe that if Yamashita is the guy I was thinking of,
his injury was the one that put the move out of tournament Judo.

Thomas

Well, I doubt if it was the injury to Yamashita that did it, but it was
certainly the straw that broke the camel's back... Kani Basami is
difficult to practice, and therefor few people really master it. And
if it's not done correctly, it's easy to cause injury. And that has
*always* been the standard to rule a technique illegal - the frequency
of injury.

While I'm not personally involved in the decision and reason for
banning Kani Basami, someone else here on RMA made the claim last year
that the ban was due to head injuries. I just remember some of the
discussion that was brought up at that time... to include Judoka who
were 'there'... and I seem to recall Yamashita's name being brought
up. And, of course, his nearly incredible years long win streak is
well known. (300+ matches, as I recall).

Just join any Aikido school and you can learn its throat-slashing
irimi-nage. So much for peace-loving and harmony. May be Judo guys/gals
are the only gentle bunch ;-)

Dave

If it is in reference to osotogari, it is not standard because the
kuzushi is wrong for a backward throw. Most people respond
to throat grabs by bending forward and trying to force away
the attacking hand. In osoto you want upward side or side-back
off-balancing which is best achieved with an ear pop or a glancing
upward blow. This also readies that hand to smash down onto
the face as uke falls which drives the head back and makes
ukemi essentially impossible.

That is standard old judo technique.

200 pound? very little. 280? more.
But the point is no woman is going to have a better chance of
halting the attack or escaping after she is down than before.

Even with you figures I have doubled my odds of survival, but I think
it is a bit more than that, espeically with a little surprise and
a bag of nasty little tricks on my side. (not to mention MY
weapon).

>>great advantage over practicing one that assumes the opponent

playfight -- with lots of rules, no weapons, soft floor, etc --

Frankly I think they would get stabbed or shot to death rather quickly.

Depends on the karateka and the boxer. I think there are some
tricks to dealing with knives that sometimes help.

No doubt if you hang around with drunk, stupid people you will see
some drunk, stupid fighting. How much art do you need to deal
with that?

Mallen

Well, that's the title they give us. :-) Actually, Judoka are
generally more concerned with moves they can do in Randori and
competition, so a lot of these 'dirty' moves aren't oficially
sanctioned, though they do seem fairly well known. Once you understand
the dynamics of a throw, it's fairy easy to adapt it.

<snip re throat strike into throw>

Yeah, this is about O Soto Gari. The move I was describing is really
more of a "big guy's" move. I and the guy that showed it to me are
both over six feet tall and weight over 220lbs., and the throat strike
turns into a grab-lift up-pull sideways that gets them going backwards
and onto one leg. If this is done with speed they don't get time to
bend forward, as the strike, grab, and kuzushi are almost
simultanious. the initial strike gets him going. Step through, reap,
and if you are in a bad mood, you can ride the choke down to the
ground, maybe do zempo kai ten at the end. Real nice way to ruin
someone's day.

Gichoke wrote:

This is true.

How much does a normal shirt substitute for a gi?

--
-Gray

I think the throw you may be refering to, is a Kata throw around the
Kata for 5th dan BJC it also uses a gun and sword.

It has already happened their are NAGA,Grapplers Quest and other tourneys
popping up all over, I am always amazed that the Judoka I speak with seem
oblivious to these events.

Gi

I find your confidence quite cute.
And amusing.

>. 280? more.

I think the average 200 pounder may be as tough as the average 280 pounder,
most of them are obese and tire immeditaly.

And her chance will be even better if she is in the cockpit of a B-1 bomber
flying directly over the potential rapist... but it doesn't always work out
that way, sadly...

Shrodringer didn't think so.
His cat did not wond up half dead.
You will not be 98% dead, and me not 99%.
We will probably both be dead, and your time will have been wasted.

That is not intended to be a weapon ,Eis.
It is unfortunate that many women see it the way you do.

But the blood is real.

I think most of them would be the oners doing the stabbing.

As a women you would need mastery of your art.

Gi

Unless you ARE a Judoka, I rather doubt that you'd have any particular
insight to this situation...

In Southern California where tee shirts are common, not at all. In
other parts of the country where a more solid wool shirt or whatever is
worn, it will be somewhat acceptable as a gi. Non-Judoka often
overstate the necessity of a gi... There are very few throws that
cannot be done without a gi, but that doesn't tell the story. The
*efficiency* with which I can throw is greatly increased on *most*
throws by using a gi. The catch here, of course, is that there are a
number of very commonly used throws that not only don't require a gi,
but are not particularly enhanced when using one. Or, to put it
another way... instead of having 50+ ways of throwing with a gi, it's
dropped (assuming the same efficiency) to maybe 20+ ways of throwing.

I would have no fear of failing to throw someone because they had no
gi. But, being lazy, I'd prefer you to put one on before mugging me. :)