Where do old paddlers go? (or "River Resume")

Early teens: saw some National Geographics about some gnarly
expeditions...filed them away under 'cool stuff'...

Late teens: started playing in boats. Discovered self-reliance,
community, gratification, wilderness values...

Early 20's: Found some river company to start guiding with. Further
development of community, identity, wilderness values. Made some choices
about income, future security, etc, which did not compromise river
time...

Late 20's: became further entrenched in river community. Watched your
few non-boater friends develop financial security, but still felt
satisfied with own choices. Became more self-sufficient; lived in van,
avoided debts, work experiences centered around river communities.
Transient lifestyle gets developed into an artform. College diploma
becomes a conversation piece.

Early 30's: Old timer by now: able to live for extended periods of time
in a van, tent, out of a drybag, boat, whatever. Can
patch/repair/paddle anything. Friends now include legends as well as
newbies. List of run rivers include a few first descents as well as
most commercial and popular runs. Income/debts still minimal, as well as
possessions. Starting to think more about the future. Beginning to have
shadows of doubts about initial 'river vs. income' choice... Various
schemes emerge (books, photo business, magazine articles, river outfit,
pyramid schemes, dealerships) but most never evolve. Possibility of
'another job' to provide income arises. Maybe a last ditch effort at
becoming a river manager or exec in a large river company in order to
have your cake and eat it too. Usually ends in taking some medium-paying
'other job' to enable you to keep boating but still save a few nickels.

Late 30's: Demands/ commitments of 'other job' beginning to erode river
time. Fond memories of late 20's.. financial security growing rapidly,
but is inversely proportional to time spent on-river. Fewer professional
boaters in your age group left..lots of reunions are filled with eye
deflections when river-time is mentioned. Dedication to at least one
expedition-style trip each summer is maintained, although spots get
harder to fill. Lots of jealousy for several friends featured in a
National Geographic special....

Early 40's: Serious reconsideration of 'income vs river' change. Now
you have lots of money (based on your miserly standards and lifestyle of
frugality), but rivertime is decreasing rapidly. Summer expeditions are
more tame.. need to rent some river gear because you just can't find
that throwbag/drybag/stove and can't really justify buying a new one.
Most river friends are considerably younger than you. Almost none of
your old river buddies ever paddle anymore, but instead are raising
kids, building their homes, running their businesses. An assessment of
finances determines that you could actually take a hiatus from that
'other job' and go back onriver for a year or two....

Late 40's......?
--
=========================================================
Riverman (myron buck): DoD #9250 ___________
O /___________\
/\ ACGWB #2 1995 VN750 |
( )>( ) BWOB #4 1970 Bluehole 17A /0\ oops
""""""""""""""""""""""""""~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<delete 'z's: zmy...@zamerican.hasharon.k12.il>

>Late 40's......?

..hate to say it, but it sounds like you are going to die of atrophy
before then. That is, unless you choose to find a middle ground.

I think Riverman might be referring to being a river professional.....or
outdoor professional......I have to say our experience is about the
same.......not to many of our "collegues" are still in the adventure
profession......a few are running successful outdoor businesses...

Riverman didn't talk about family life but as far as outdoor professions
and family life the salary and the hours are tough .....We were at a
conference a bunch of years ago......one of the special seminars was the
"Impact of the Adventure Profession on Family Life"......There was about
30 people present for an add on seminar during what was supposed to be
"free time"......Most everyone had been married or had considered
getting married......several had kids....Pete and I were one of the two
couples present who were still married after a decade in the outdoor
field.....The other couple runs their own outdoor adv. business out of
their home......we worked at a camp together....(neither of us did many
trips apart from our spouces)

Big stresses: money, time, traveling on separate trips alot.....

We finally left the adventure field.....(though in the right situation
we'd go back in a heartbeat!).....

but we still didn't grow up (in the sense of going for the big bucks
kind of jobs).......seeing as we are 41 and 45 I don't think that is
going to happen......but we do have enough time to paddle, backpack, ski
etc.....(funny we had much less time to do those things in our latter
years as outdoor professionals - to much mngt. stuff to actually get
out!)

i've also noticed a number of our friends are starting to get back on
the river (or at least outdoors now that their kids are growing up)

I'm looking forward to the late 40's.....

sheila

riverman wrote:
>
> Typical middle-aged boater biography:
<<snip>>

Hey Myron, I did the first steps in the past four years, but the rest
sounds like one gigantic nightmare (and bringing a bag of oats to bed
won't work for this one...), and I have just decided that I'm not going
to pass the magical treshold of 30 this year after all! There are way
too many nasty consequences to getting over 30!

(and its never too late (and you are never too old) to have a happy
childhood! :-))

--
Wilko van den Bergh
quibus(at)xs4all(dot)nl AD&D Dungeon Master
Sociology Student at the Tilburg University, The Netherlands,
Europe
Whitewater Kayaker Addicted Paddlers Anonymous

--------------------------------------------------------------------
No man is wise enough, nor good enough
to be trusted with unlimited power.
Charles Colton
--------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a general rule of thumb that you shouldn't start a business just
because you love whatever that business is about...like, if you like
to hang out in your neighborhood bar schmoozing with the bartender,
you shouldn't go and open a bar yourself. I went through a period
of regretting not having become an outdoor professional, but now I
don't. There are tradeoffs either way: I paid my dues in the
corporate world instead, and while that means I've lost out on some
really cool experiences that I would have had as an outdoor professional,
I have some options now that I wouldn't have otherwise. Who knows,
I may have an outdoor job some day, but I'll be able to do it on
my own terms, with a nest egg and my own home.

My brother did it the other way. He was a ski bum in the winters
and a beach bum in the summers. He worked resort jobs and had a
lot of fun and never had any money: if the car died, it was a
major disaster. Over the years he picked up some job skills that
made his situation much less precarious -- he worked as a cook,
becoming more and more skilled, and then as a professional ski
instructor. Then he went back to school for a semester and
went to work for IBM as a tech writer. He paid his dues, made
some money...now he's looking at easing back.

I've stopped beating myself up (for the most part) about my
years spent on the corporate treadmill. Even if it was a stupid
choice, what's done is done, and regrets won't help. But I
don't think it was a stupid choice. There's no way that I
could have it all. Any way I'd gone, I would have had to make
some compromises and sacrifices, and it's too easy to have
regrets. The problem isn't in choosing one path over the other;
it's if you do so, and x years down the road, you honestly feel
you have nothing to show for it (except, perhaps, for a
really elementary lesson learned). Another important point is
that changing direction doesn't mean that you've been going
the wrong way up until now. Usually it just means that now,
you've come to the fork in the road.

--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net

"They write books that contradict the rocks..."

riverman <nos...@sorry.com> wrote in article <36A332...@sorry.com>...
> Typical middle-aged boater biography:
< many snips >

early 50's :
Achieve comfortable balance between finances and start paddling more.
Choose venues for serenity, ambiance, and beauty instead of rapids only.
Still do some hair boating but just for personal gratification, not to
prove yourself. Take up quietwater freestyle and coastal kyaking and find
just as much, but a different kind of enjoyment. Start running into old
friends in those disciplines as well as making new young ones. Broaden your
paddling horizons and definition of achievement and enjoyment. Start
sharing your years of experience by instructing others and feel really good
about it. Open your mind to all types of paddle experiences and be content
with great memories and new goals. Don't worry, be happy !

A Vie Pagailler,
John
>
> j-ss...@worldnet.att.net

This is a test to see if my netscape Mail is working. Did you get
this? Respond to my e-mail address below, not my 'return to' address
above, please.

Thanks for your accurate interpretation of my RBP post. :-)

myr...@american.hasharon.k12.il

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever!

-Paul

> Typical middle-aged boater biography:..........
>

It's good news, as you are entering a time of fewer financial needs.

Try to attach a bit more meaning to your travel in river country: get to
know what all surrounds you out there, such as history, geology, animals and
plants. Stop on the river and spend a few days to explore the hills beyond
the shore. Find out how native people lived in the land before western
culture changed things, check out what the local communites there are doing
today.
You could get active to help preserve what's dear to you: there are all
kinds of people out there begging for help to save their favorite river, a
corner of wildlife etc. Introduce a stranger/friend who's never been in the
"wilds" to your world. Set up a website and share what you know. I'm sure
you have your own ideas along the same lines.

Last not least, go to places that you've once dreamed of but never managed
to visit.

Good luck, Riverman!

I don't know if anyone else sees the briliance in writing here,but it sure
makes sense to me. Also let me add that if you go left or right, eventually the
fork gets to arrive in the same place, as inm you take the high road and i'll
tke the low road. Make smart thought out decisions about what you want to do
with your life and things will usually work out.hopefully no one has to give up
the water.
Dougie

Go for it!

It has almost been two years since I left the Environmental Protection
Agency - I'm still sure that I did the best thing for me.

I hope we can paddle together,
Julie Keller

You stole my line!

Julie Keller

Then don't turn 30. Just celebrate the 1st anniversary of your 29th
birthday. My 17th is a few days away.

An extended or delayed happy childhood is even more happy when you have some
children to enjoy it with. Trouble is, they grow up & leave you without
playmates.

-------------
Lloyd Bowles
The Mad Canoeist
"Keep the open side up!"
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

Lloyd!

Your're not supposed to make me teary in the middle of this thread
:-)......(Guess that is why Pete and I keep having kids!)

sheila

Be patient. Once they retire you may see them again on the water. Nowadaze
that can be just after the IPO (initial public offering).
-Ray

You beat me to the punch. It is brilliance in writing. The value of being over
40 is not beating myself up too much. I'm true to myself and trust the
outcome. Every life like every river has a unique rythmn. Find the rythmn,
lock in on the groove and enjoy the ride....wherever it takes you.
Debra

-Eric ;-)

>won't work for this one...), and I have just decided that I'm not going

Well said Lloyd. I don't fit in this conversation because I didn't find
paddling until I was celebrating the 17th anniversary of my 29th birthday.
But, I have had a truly wonderful second childhood discovering paddling with
my now 14 yr old son. Sharing The River as teacher has been an
experience/gift that maybe only other paddlers could really appreciate. And
while the thought of him moving on is hard to contemplate, we'll always have
paddling and the closeness that the river helped us to develop. I've also
noted that lately the 11 yr little lady in this household is showing some
interest in paddling. :) So I can tell you where this old paddlers going,
I'm just getting started!! Phil

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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While he was a poor college student his mother and I got kayak lessons for
Mother's Day and Father's Day. One year it was ender lessons, another year it
was 360 lessons. Mostly it was an excuse to get to paddle with him.

Daniel moved to Colorado to pursue his interests in boating and he now
works and boats for Wave Sports. His mother and I live in West Virginia (close
to the New, Gauley, etc.) so we don't get to see him or paddle with him too
often. But we do paddle together when we can. Last summer we paddled Brown's
Canyon and the Taylor when we went to Colorado and the New and Gauley when we
came to West Virginia. It was really special to have him lead me down my first
trip on the Upper Gauley at full release last fall.

Youd kids may grow up and leave home, but you can still be great paddling
partners.

In article <36A3B5...@erols.com>,
chap...@erols.com wrote:

A proud dad, Chuck Brabec

Home to post on Rec.boats.paddle.
\
Dick Creswell
Floa...@aol.com
"The worst river trip I ever had was wonderful"

In article <01be4303$ce82e400$7df2490c@sassy>,

> > kids, building their homes, running their businesses. An assessment of

Chuck Brabec

Most incredible snippage..........

I like your view that the original thread may have had to do with a river
guide viewpoint, that what happens when you get older matters.....I think the
rest of this thread has to do with all the rest of us.

I began WW paddlin' at the age of 37. Entered first rodeo at 39, have been and
had great fun in over 10 since, and had 95 river days last year. I learn more
each year, albeit at a slower learning curve than my younger paddlin' pals.

This sport has too much to offer anyone who wants to get out there and do it
all. Yes, most of the paddlers I go with are around half my age, but it is
amazing, that after I've worked a hole (not vica-versa!) for a few ends,
spins, etc., I've been told by others sitting in the eddy that people who
don't know me say "who is that guy"? Only to be told that "he's McHolehog and
he's 49". "Wow, I hope I can paddle like that when I'm his age", they answer.

Let's not forget (the name escapes me of course) the old woman that guided
numerous raft descents of the Grand Canyon - well into her 60's!

Paddlingly yours,
Mick "Holehog" French
http://homestead.dejanews.com/inland_nw_kayaker/NWKayakerNewswire.html
"Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women" - Popeye

Everyone has a different future and came from a different past... but Mary M
said it well, "Any way I'd gone, I would have had to make some compromises and
sacrifices, and it's too (damn) easy to have regrets." (I think she said it
that way).

Also, as John S suggested, remember there is nothing more fun than teaching
young, or 'middle aged' young the secrets of the river. I know it's kept me in
29th birthdays for quite some time now.

Lean Downstream,
Barnett

Yep, I did... because you're also never too old to learn from others!
:-)

All the nasty things that Myron mentioned that happen to you after you
pass that magical treshold of 30 !!!

He scared the living daylights out of me, so I'm planning on staying 29
for quite a while to come! ;-)

> Myron,
> I found that I had to let it go as a profession in order to
> regain the joy of the water as a lifelong sport. I believe that many
> of us have not "gone" anywhere. We're still "here" on the river.
> Still Creekin' & Hardly Leakin',
>
> Bill Dallam,
> (remove NO SPAM to reply)

Thanks, Bill. It says a lot, as we were in the same river community 18
years ago (wow).. So how easy *was* it for you to let it go as a
profession? You were always a much bigger wheel than I ever was...didja
ever have those moments of temptation? What did you go into next?

BTW, the 'River Resume' was deliberately GENERIC, it wasn't quite my
own. Although I'm certainly debating some of those choices, I meant for
other long-timers to supplement it with their own versions...

And to scare the young-uns, of course. :^p

<delete 'z's: zmy...@zamerican.hasharon.k12.il>

Now you're talking!!! 'cept I plan to keep going strong for two or
three decades after that......

40! that isn't even half way through the race. :-)

sheila

Well, good luck at that. And I'm sure you'll do it, too.

But not *all* is glum after 30. Note the following:

> Early 30's: Old timer by now: able to live for extended periods of time
> in a van, tent, out of a drybag, boat, whatever. Can
> patch/repair/paddle anything. Friends now include legends as well as
> newbies. List of run rivers include a few first descents as well as
> most commercial and popular runs. Income/debts still minimal, as well as
> possessions...

All that is good; nay, GREAT.

> Usually ends in taking some medium-paying
> 'other job' to enable you to keep boating but still save a few nickels.

And what's wrong with THAT, I ask you. Allergic to nickels??
>
> Late 30's: financial security growing rapidly,

sounds nice.

> Dedication to at least one
> expedition-style trip each summer is maintained,

hmm?

> Early 40's: Now you have lots of money (based on your miserly standards and lifestyle > of frugality),

this is *very* nice, ecologically and morally sound.

I'm OK with this. Just an observation..

Successful folks, I'd say.

This sounds good, too. How many 23 year olds could say the same?
>

Before you write off the possibility of getting past 30, Wilko, reread
the post and visualize the GOOD things. The view is actually not so bad
from up here....it's just tough to see some things get farther
away...(like your belly button...)
--

Ahh, yes. Georgie Clark (or White, depending on who you ask..) She was
a real interesting character. Not many like her around anymore......she
guided until she was 72. (Isn't that right, Drifter? You were at her
farewell bash up at VC?)

It not always a simple choice between time and money. I managed to squander
both! By working as a scientist, I let my 20s and 30s be consumed by 60 and 80
hour workweeks and I never made one thin dime. Can I start over? Please?
Gregg

Her life is chronicled in:

Woman of the River : Georgie White Clark, White Water Pioneer.
Dick Westwood, et al / Paperback / Published 1997

Available at Amazon and real book stores.

My wife got first dibs on this book. From the sound of it, Georgie was a real
character.

Blakely LaCroix
(Rail...@aol.com)

You are not what it is that you are not doing.

Hey! I resemble that remark! (and there was much rejoicing...)

-Eric ;-)

Don Rumrill

Cheers,
Chris

--
_____________________________________________________

Chris Walters e-mail: ch...@haze.demon.co.uk
Hungerford, UK web: http://www.haze.demon.co.uk/
_____________________________________________________

Don't worry,
I guess I was about 27 when I started getting
my act together. I'll soon be 49 and am still
learning new tricks. 50 is a bit scary though,

Peik Borud
Norway
p...@online.no

Karol :>)

Me three!

sheila

No need, I am as old as I feel, and that is still a nice round 25! :-)

Oh Myron, don't take me more serious than I do: I know what many of the
advantages are, but I also know what many of the disadvantages are.

I don't mind getting older, but I do like to make fun of those (who
feel) older than me!

You think so... In that case I think I will leave the trip-leading
part to you then! :-)

One great tale concerned put-in spaces. The river at Lees Ferry is
colder'n a welldiggers ass, and the most popular spot to rig big boats
was "Georgie's Spot", a small hump of land where you could rig in dry
comfort in the evening, and the morning release would float your boat
for you. One day, a boater friend was putting his rig there ahead of
Georgie, who came upon the crime in progress. She challenged him to a
duel: whoever could stand in the river up to their belly buttons and
drink a beer could have the spot. They waded in, popped their cans and
started sipping. Before he was even halfway through, his legs and lips
were as blue as the sky. He choked on a swallow, pushed his beer can
at Georgie, and Frankensteined out of the river, nearly hypothermic.
She stood there, finished her own beer, finished HIS, then sauntered out
past him mumbling something about 'those goddamn kids today'.

(snip)

>

>
>Early 20's: Found some river company to start guiding with. Further
>development of community, identity, wilderness values. Made some choices
>about income, future security, etc, which did not compromise river
>time...
>
>Late 20's: became further entrenched in river community. Watched your
>few non-boater friends develop financial security, but still felt
>satisfied with own choices. Became more self-sufficient; lived in van,
>avoided debts, work experiences centered around river communities.
>Transient lifestyle gets developed into an artform. College diploma
>becomes a conversation piece.

>possessions. Starting to think more about the future. Beginning to have
>shadows of doubts about initial 'river vs. income' choice... Various
>schemes emerge (books, photo business, magazine articles, river outfit,
>pyramid schemes, dealerships) but most never evolve. Possibility of
>'another job' to provide income arises. Maybe a last ditch effort at
>becoming a river manager or exec in a large river company in order to
>have your cake and eat it too. Usually ends in taking some medium-paying

>but is inversely proportional to time spent on-river. Fewer professional
>boaters in your age group left..lots of reunions are filled with eye
>deflections when river-time is mentioned. Dedication to at least one
>expedition-style trip each summer is maintained, although spots get
>harder to fill. Lots of jealousy for several friends featured in a
>National Geographic special....
>
>Early 40's: Serious reconsideration of 'income vs river' change. Now

>Most river friends are considerably younger than you. Almost none of

>kids, building their homes, running their businesses. An assessment of

>Late 40's......?
>--

riverman schrieb:

> Typical middle-aged boater biography:
>
> Early teens: saw some National Geographics about some gnarly
> expeditions...filed them away under 'cool stuff'...
>
> Late teens: started playing in boats. Discovered self-reliance,
> community, gratification, wilderness values...

My first trip down Cain Creek was with Hugh Worthy. If I remember it right it
was also his first trip down Cain and had to have been over 60 at the time.

I was impressed, doing Class V over 60 is impressive, but doing new class V runs
when you are over 60 is even more impressive, and doing them in an open boat is
well, . . . . . he certainly made an impression on me that day.

Bill Matlin wrote in message <36AD3B84...@earthlink.net>...

Check out Hugh Worthy going over Baby Falls on the Tellico River last winter
at:

http://www.sormagazine.com/

Julie Keller

As well he should. But you force me to mention my Man, John Kobak. 61 or 62
and retired, right now he's on a two-week paddling and diving Tripp in
Ecuador and the Galapogos Islands. He's still a regular on the Gauley and the
Upper Yough, and he led me down Section IV last Spring; has run the Bottom
Moose with me the last couple of years, too, and -- to top it off -- when we
signed in at the Tallulah last April, Risa Callaway told him he was the
*oldest* person who'd run that river! (The registration form, you see, has a
line wherein you print your age.) He was justifiably proud.

He does go on flatwater canoeing Tripps with his wife. They paddle to the
takeout, and she reads while he mountain-bikes back to the putin and picks up
the vehicle. Not too shabby, I'd say.

Someday, I guess, he'll slow down. Someday, we all will. But when (if) I grow
up, I wanna be taking kids age-appropriate to be my grandchillen down Class V.

Riviera Ratt
Still Swimless in '99!!
for a good time (and some pictures of Kobak's ugly mug), call
http://members.aol.com/rivierratt/ratthole.html

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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And another amazing boater in his 60's, as nice and as friendly as
Kobak, is the god Michaud from Connecticut, who bagged the first
open-boat descent of the Eagle section of Beaver last Fall. And showed
me the dry line at Pillow Rock.

--
Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always.
OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265

Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n,
Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak
Ass'n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass'n, ACA, and AWA

Note 1: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon.
Note 2: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.