Bharat Rakshak

This guy gave me a good chuckle:

http://www.free-times.com/index.php?cat ... 6104351634

“We got a raghead in Washington; we don’t need one in South Carolina,” Knotts said more than once. “She’s a raghead that’s ashamed of her religion trying to hide it behind being Methodist for political reasons.”

...

Knotts said he believed Haley’s father has been sending letters to India saying that Haley is the first Sikh running for high office in America. He said her father walks around Lexington wearing a turban.

“We’re at war over there,” Knotts said.

Asked to clarify, he said he did not mean the United States was at war with India, but was at war with “foreign countries.”

RamaY wrote:

Venkarl wrote:Sorry if posted already

Narasimha Rao decided on Anderson’s safe passage: Rasgotra

Atlast Shri Deadman takes the blame. Shitty kangress.

INC's intellectual dishonesty has no bottom. They get into a b*tch-fit when a dead Rajiv Gandhi is blamed, but they don't have any problem is pushing the blame on other dead (true)Indians.

It is disgusting to see that the likes of Pranab-da, PC etc make these statements where as the Maino-Manmohan Cabal and SG/RGjr psychophants remain silent. Tomorrow RGIII will make sure that all the blame for today's mistakes squarely fall on these very leaders...

Shows a pattern...

The Congress and it's gandhi Clique won't rest until PVN's legacy is completely sh!tballed into oblivion. That woman really hates him even when he's passed on.

Guys,

My take on Indian Americans seeking high office. I think its counterproductive for the following reason:

1) We all know USA is a white Christian nationalist country, but with some exceptionally brilliant people at the helm (business, science & technology, politics, diplomacy, military etc). Nothing wrong with this; its a country that reflects the views, history, and culture of its majority.

2) When it comes to other religions, ethnicities, there is at best tolerance within limits, nothing more, nothing less. No respect except for exotic curiosity. And the prejudice and revulsion US has for the "other" can go side by side with the "other" in their midst given how vast, huge, and rich USA is. In other words, just as infinity plus/minus anything finite is still infinity, pre-ponderous of white Christian nationalism is so pervasive that a few 100s of 1000s of SDREs worshipping their faith won't make a dent.

3) Americans are also pragmatic to the core. An SDRE, be it Hindu, Sikh, or Muslim; if he advances the state of the nation without altering its white nationalist character, no problem. Opportunities are plenty. Even CEO of companies is fine. Hence we see a few SDREs as CEOs of fortune 500 companies.

4) Given what I said above, I as an SDRE am grateful for the opportunities USA has provided me, and in return I contribute whatever I can, but with the understanding that I am an honored guest in this country, nothing more.

5) What does #4 mean? As an honored guest, I should not abuse the hospitality of my hosts. In other words, eschew taking this "freedom" stuff too seriously and start aspiring for too much power as many of these Indian Americans are embarking upon. Why?

6) As mentioned above, the country is not ready to embrace a non-white, non-Christian as their own in terms of elected office (someone elected has to be more than competent; he/she must connect with the people at an emotional/spiritual/civilizational level. Thats why believe MMS does not deserve to be PM of India). And for someone like SDREs aspiring for higher office despite being unwelcome, its like being a lousy, demanding guest. It exacerbates tensions, indicated by the comments to the article posted.

7) Bottom line: I, as an Indian American is better off working quietly to bolster India-US relations, helping India etc. An in your face approach will be counterproductive. Many individual Americans are wonderful people. We need to cultivate them and work quietly to mutual benefit.

As for Indian American interests, they are no different from African American interests or Jewish American interests etc; I mean those minority Americans who have been living here long before SDREs arrived. And as long as their interests are represented, SDRE interests are taken care of.

9) SDREs should concentrate on what is achievable: winning spelling bee contests and other awards/accolades raising the profile of their kind, excelling in whatever profession they are in, be respectful and grateful to their fellow American friends/colleagues/neighbors without being obsequious, and quietly do what one can to the SDRE community, and above all, to India.

So where did mofo knotts parents came from Mars ! Is he an alien race whose forefathers are living in u as* of a since 2 billion years underground that he claims that he is real son of the soil and other are foreigners ! Why dont a small time indian ngo reply to these bumble bee saying human rights situations of americans is worst in the world killing millions of indegenous red-indians and capturing their nation. They are invadors occupying america illegaly. These stupids should be taken head on saying where did you came from jarhead barber with melanin free skin. Tell him to go to country of origin of his forefathers.

RamaY wrote:
Tomorrow RGIII will make sure that all the blame for today's mistakes squarely fall on these very leaders...

Shows a pattern...

with oldman Arjun Singh's death.....many more black paintings to come....PC, Pranab, Antony etc..should observe this pattern and mend their ways...its going OT..

Obama should address Bhopal

The US president has taken a stern line with BP, but what about Union Carbide?

It would behove US President Barack Obama to pause from his rantings against oil giant BP and deliver a lecture on accountability to US-based company Union Carbide for the Bhopal gas leak 26 years ago.
Obama has made BP commit to paying damages of $20 billion (Dh73.6 billion) for its role in the massive oil spill. If he has any acumen as a statesman then he should orchestrate a boost in US-India relations by forcing Union Carbide, or its current owners Dow Chemicals, to pay a higher compensation than the $470 million they announced in 1989.
Bhopal is recorded as the worst industrial disaster in history, claiming in excess of 25,000 lives. But the compensation offered by Union Carbide amounts to a paltry sum per person.
But it is not just US double standards that are showing up in this tragedy. Politicians in India are also shifting the blame to cover up past transgressions, such as who facilitated the flight of former Union Carbide chairman Warren Anderson from India.
Anyone who has shown the potential to become a scapegoat has been targeted but the pleas of the victims and their families are still being ignored.
Bhopal needs closure. The repercussions of that fateful day are still being felt amongst its people.

Editorial in Gulf News.

No conspiracy theory possible about this one.

Andhra techie's murderers held in US

A native of Chittoor in Andhra Pradesh, Venkata Subba Reddy Cuttamanchi, 35, was allegedly shot dead in a motel in Southfield near Detroit Wednesday by the boyfriend of a Mexican woman where he had gone for an internet date, TANA said.

Police was informed by people who witnessed the shooting at 2.00 a.m.

"Venkat Reddy met a 23-year-old Mexican woman through internet dating, had a meal at Wendy's restaurant, and drove to a nearby EZ Rest motel around 2.00 a.m. The woman's boyfriend and four other cronies who were waiting at the motel robbed Venkat and shot him to death," said Prasad Thotakura, TANA executive vice president.

vera_k wrote:No conspiracy theory possible about this one.

Andhra techie's murderers held in US

A native of Chittoor in Andhra Pradesh, Venkata Subba Reddy Cuttamanchi, 35, was allegedly shot dead in a motel in Southfield near Detroit Wednesday by the boyfriend of a Mexican woman where he had gone for an internet date, TANA said.

Police was informed by people who witnessed the shooting at 2.00 a.m.

"Venkat Reddy met a 23-year-old Mexican woman through internet dating, had a meal at Wendy's restaurant, and drove to a nearby EZ Rest motel around 2.00 a.m. The woman's boyfriend and four other cronies who were waiting at the motel robbed Venkat and shot him to death," said Prasad Thotakura, TANA executive vice president.

So he walked into a honey trap? That's very sad and not very worldly-wise for a 35 year old man.

Al-Qaida spokesman sets peace conditions with US

Al-Qaida's American-born spokesman has repeated the terror group's conditions for peace with America, calling on President Barack Obama to withdraw his troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, end support for Israel, stop intervening in the affairs of Muslims and free Muslim prisoners.

Gerard wrote:Al-Qaida spokesman sets peace conditions with US

Al-Qaida's American-born spokesman has repeated the terror group's conditions for peace with America, calling on President Barack Obama to withdraw his troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, end support for Israel, stop intervening in the affairs of Muslims and free Muslim prisoners.

India must present this list to Obama and show the similarity with the demands TSP makes from India. In both cases terror is used as a barfgaining chip; except in TSP's case it is respected.

Ragheads and Republicans

The epithet raghead–also used by conservative Ann Coulter in a 2006 CPAC speech—has become a generic slur against Arabs, Muslims and other non-white non-Christians, but it was originally employed, in the early 20th century, against turban-wearing Indian immigrants, the vast majority of whom were Sikh men.

According to her campaign, Haley, who is Indian American, was raised a Sikh but converted to Christianity when she was 24. She now attends a Methodist church.....when Haley was running for the state legislature in 2004 she described herself as attending both Methodist and Sikh services. Her website now emphasizes her “faith in Christ.”

Some day, Indian Americans will not feel like they need to convert from Hinduism to Christianity (as did Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal) or from Sikhism to Christianity (like Haley) if they want to run for high office. Some day, they will not feel any need to change their names–Jindal's given first name is Piyush; Haley's is Nimrata–in order to get elected.

Unfortunately, that day has not yet come.

Airavat:

Please read my earlier post. Thats exactly the reason why Indian Americans, unless they are self-loathing like BJ or NH, should not force the issue. The country is simply not ready. Instead, they should work through quiet diplomacy to render their service.

Perhaps Indian-Americans shouldn't, but Indians should, in the sense that the Holier-Than-Thou US State Department issues its report on human rights, then a very loud and pointed reply should be given that unlike the US, minorities India can run for elected office and win without giving up their religion.

CRamS wrote:Guys,

My take on Indian Americans seeking high office. I think its counterproductive for the following reason:

1) We all know USA is a white Christian nationalist country, but with some exceptionally brilliant people at the helm (business, science & technology, politics, diplomacy, military etc). Nothing wrong with this; its a country that reflects the views, history, and culture of its majority.

2) When it comes to other religions, ethnicities, there is at best tolerance within limits, nothing more, nothing less. No respect except for exotic curiosity. And the prejudice and revulsion US has for the "other" can go side by side with the "other" in their midst given how vast, huge, and rich USA is. In other words, just as infinity plus/minus anything finite is still infinity, pre-ponderous of white Christian nationalism is so pervasive that a few 100s of 1000s of SDREs worshipping their faith won't make a dent.

3) Americans are also pragmatic to the core. An SDRE, be it Hindu, Sikh, or Muslim; if he advances the state of the nation without altering its white nationalist character, no problem. Opportunities are plenty. Even CEO of companies is fine. Hence we see a few SDREs as CEOs of fortune 500 companies.

4) Given what I said above, I as an SDRE am grateful for the opportunities USA has provided me, and in return I contribute whatever I can, but with the understanding that I am an honored guest in this country, nothing more.

5) What does #4 mean? As an honored guest, I should not abuse the hospitality of my hosts. In other words, eschew taking this "freedom" stuff too seriously and start aspiring for too much power as many of these Indian Americans are embarking upon. Why?

6) As mentioned above, the country is not ready to embrace a non-white, non-Christian as their own in terms of elected office (someone elected has to be more than competent; he/she must connect with the people at an emotional/spiritual/civilizational level. Thats why believe MMS does not deserve to be PM of India). And for someone like SDREs aspiring for higher office despite being unwelcome, its like being a lousy, demanding guest. It exacerbates tensions, indicated by the comments to the article posted.

7) Bottom line: I, as an Indian American is better off working quietly to bolster India-US relations, helping India etc. An in your face approach will be counterproductive. Many individual Americans are wonderful people. We need to cultivate them and work quietly to mutual benefit.

As for Indian American interests, they are no different from African American interests or Jewish American interests etc; I mean those minority Americans who have been living here long before SDREs arrived. And as long as their interests are represented, SDRE interests are taken care of.

9) SDREs should concentrate on what is achievable: winning spelling bee contests and other awards/accolades raising the profile of their kind, excelling in whatever profession they are in, be respectful and grateful to their fellow American friends/colleagues/neighbors without being obsequious, and quietly do what one can to the SDRE community, and above all, to India.

CramS:

This post is a keeper. Hard truth to swallow, but the bare truth, nevertheless. Hats off to you for writing this so clearly.

Airavat, despite the title its the Republicans who are willing to put Indian Americans for elected high office of State Governors.

CRS, I disagree. There is a gaping intellectual vacuum in the American political space and second generation Indian Americans due to their education and spelling bee skills etc are ready to fill.

surinder wrote:
CramS:

This post is a keeper. Hard truth to swallow, but the bare truth, nevertheless. Hats off to you for writing this so clearly.

Disagree. That post is not a keeper, at least for me. In life there are two types of people - the ones who have courage to go against the current and the ones who simply complain.

My hat is off to Indians running for public offices in USA against all odds.

(I used to be dismissive of Jindal but not anymore.)

What is the problem if some Americans view Indians negatively and resort to crude language to describe Indians ? Remember this: behavior is only negative or discriminatory if you allow it to be. Some behavior is so childish that it deserved to be mocked: "You went out of your way to discard your smiling disposition and put on a scowl when you encountered me - a complete stranger ? Wow!"

As a largely economically successful minority, there will be some kind of negative reaction towards us. To continue to preserve and build on that success needs our own political representatives, lobbyists, and special interest groups at various levels to safeguard and further its interests. Putting our heads down and doing innocuous things is no longer an option. We're too many in number. Too successful, and tied to a fast growing economic power.

Hmmmm, came across a Catholic from Pakistan once and asked her what it was like for her family. Her answer was a thesis of the structure of a religious state-she simply said that they were now Muslims as it was a lot 'easier'.


As easy as for these Hindu/Sikhs to discover the true gospel.

Whites will be a minority in America in two short decades and will no longer be the main factor in deciding what color America's leaders are going to be. As the most successful minority group in America, it is natural for Indian Americans to lay the political groundwork now and they are doing so. Whether whites or others are ready for it is irrelevant.

So in the short term, people should flog the Christian ideology bit and use the religious Republican voters to get elected.

Suraj wrote:
As a largely economically successful minority, there will be some kind of negative reaction towards us. To continue to preserve and build on that success needs our own political representatives, lobbyists, and special interest groups at various levels to safeguard and further its interests. Putting our heads down and doing innocuous things is no longer an option. We're too many in number. Too successful, and tied to a fast growing economic power.

Victor wrote:Whites will be a minority in America in two short decades and will no longer be the main factor in deciding what color America's leaders are going to be. As the most successful minority group in America, it is natural for Indian Americans to lay the political groundwork now and they are doing so. Whether whites or others are ready for it is irrelevant.

Both very good points. There is no point in being non-confrontational and quietly waiting and hoping for stuff to fall into our laps. I'm glad some people of Indian origin (whatever their religion) are running for and winning political office. It will help Indians get visibility as a powerful community and grows their influence. Once Indians are known and recognized as a significant part of the elites, a lot of the hoi polloi will automatically fall in line.

Re: Political Involvement of Indian Americans.

One should know that nothing is unchangeable. Today Christian conservatism is an pole in American politics. Its relevance may change in years and decades to come.

When the Chinese intensified their relationship with America, many took up an additional Christian/Western name to make it easier for the Americans to interact with them as well as to accept them. Any software architect would tell you, that you need some adapter to interface with a legacy system. Of course one could use a service bus for interfacing, but that may be some time coming in American politics, as color, religion, ethnicity, language, etc. would always remain factors, instead of giving way to pure rationality and functionality. So we are stuck with 'Adaptors'.

BJ and NH have decided to do what is necessary to click into the system. For the Dharmics, the Indics, this looks like a huge betrayal, but as things stand in American politics, Indics would be hard-pressed to suggest a different road to a public office. BJ and NH are softening the American public opinion to accepting first their color and ethnicity. Religion too may some day be acceptable, once the Indian American community has had a few decades of high-profile visibility and acceptability. Until that day comes, Indian Americans would have to push their way in into the elite circles, circles of influence and policy-making by whatever means they can.

When some Ambassador from India leaves for foreign shores, he too is becoming 'apavitra', but he too would do the duty to his homeland in his own way, to pave the way for more people to come to those shores, to pave way for more trade between the two lands. If the land of American Politics were accepting only Christians, then our Ambassadors may need to change his religion as well. But he, and now she, is at least in.

To give another analogy, the casino too lets a new customer win some, before making him pay some. So the evangelicals in America have won some. Fine ...

ramana wrote:
CRS, I disagree. There is a gaping intellectual vacuum in the American political space and second generation Indian Americans due to their education and spelling bee skills etc are ready to fill.

Do you think that Indian Americans can help in the Foggy Bottom?
What is the gaping intellectual vacuum in the American political space?

I think there is a priciple here that perhaps may be eluding some.

When Ujjal Dosanjh was premier of oh so British Columbia, he did not have to hide his religion, anymore than the solicitor general did later (also an Indian).

I will be looking forward to the next State department dossier on religious freedom in India as also Congressional hearings on religious freedom in the heathen kingdom.

Just want to make one point and then dodge out of the discussion:

We Indians are experts at changing ourselves for profit. When RoP ravaged the subcontinent, many Indians took to persian and arabic, started wearing their clothes, changing their dietery practices, and social modes of behaviour. When the British were victors and masters of India, Indians took on English language, clothes, customs, practices for profit. There does not exist in India a defiant streak of sticking to our roots, at the face of enormous odds.

HOWEVER, religion is one area that Indians did not compromise for proift. Often, not even at the risk of loosing ones life. Only under extreme violence did some Indians capitulate to RoP (and we stil hold that in contempt). British efforts at evangelizing India were basically a failure.

Nikky Haley and Jinda's religious about-turn hits us at the very core of our culture, because the compromise they made was in the arena of religion.

This I think is the crux of our disgust with both NH & BJ and an apprecaition of Dosanjh or Saundh.

Acharya wrote:

ramana wrote:
CRS, I disagree. There is a gaping intellectual vacuum in the American political space and second generation Indian Americans due to their education and spelling bee skills etc are ready to fill.

Do you think that Indian Americans can help in the Foggy Bottom?
What is the gaping intellectual vacuum in the American political space?

The true gaping intellectual vacuum in American political system is that they have not understood the true meaning of Enlgithement. They think that Englightenment is only de-monarchization i.e. ending the feudal system and its trappings which bind Church and State together. While they have freed the State from the clutches of the Church they are still working on freeing the society and people from the Church and are unable to see a society and world without the boundaries of the Church.

Its this shortcoming, which makes them unrealize the vast resources and research they have invested and acquired.

I posted CRamS-garu's post in Good Posts dhaga. Nanha-mujahids can learn the lessons they want.

That done, we need not take a mere 10,000 online posts (most of them by same posters) as the general opinion of American public. One can notice the racist comments coming from across the spectrum (White, Black, Mexican and what not).

Morally Indians need to worry about only responses/opinions/expectations from native Indians. Then these intelligent/successful/wealthy Indians must help secure african-american interests as they suffered much in this land. Everything else is a fair game.

That said as long as these Indians are keeping American Interests at heart and trying to establish a just governance system then they have every right to contest and occupy political positions in the US.

However what CRamS-ji is trying to say, at least as I understood, is that the philosophical, religious and spiritual compromises these so-called intelligent/successful/wealthy Indians are making to gain these political gains demonstrate their moral and intellectual corruption, which is of highest order. That choice removed their Indic roots for good.

This tells us something about the US-White society. Even the most intelligent and successful non-whites are allowed to represent their party and constituencies only when these individuals cut their civilizational roots.

I prefer a Non-Indian who works to align Indo-US Interests and pushes Indic-worldview in American society.

What next? A little snake handling in the Appalachians by Bobby Jindal to demonstrate his faith? Apparently Nikki Hadey has already done that. Har har har

RamaY wrote:I posted CRamS-garu's post in Good Posts dhaga. Nanha-mujahids can learn the lessons they want.

RamaY, thanks for doing that. I was going to do it too.

Great exposition surinder and sanjaykumar! Some things are non-negotiable and while we are fine with individual choice, there simply cannot be a post-facto justification of something by claiming "they are yumreekan wonlee". (Indeed they are) We accept the fact and move and find no need to fund, support or back them on the SDRE plank. An old saying goes "Jo apne baap ka saga nahi, who kisi ka kya bhala karega?" (if someone is unable to be nurture their roots/origin, what good shall they serve for the rest). To a large populations of NRIs and PIOs NH and Bj are just poodles of old style EJ and conservatives. And as they on this forum we should directly deal with the masters no need to humour the poodles.

RamaY wrote:

However what CRamS-ji is trying to say, at least as I understood, is that the philosophical, religious and spiritual compromises these so-called intelligent/successful/wealthy Indians are making to gain these political gains demonstrate their moral and intellectual corruption, which is of highest order. That choice removed their Indic roots for good.
_____________________________________________________________________
CRamS's post is not a keeper it is a defeatist manifesto. Becoming a Catholic or Methodist or anything else does not remove one's Indic roots. If the reference is to Nikki Haley or Bobby Jindal, you are sadly mistaken. Jindal converted to Catholicism long before he ran for office. Nikki Haley had two separate wedding ceremonies: one Methodist and then Sikh. She attends the Methodist Church and the Gurudwara.

BTW, what are these 'Indic' roots anyway? If you mean Indian values (family, education, respect for elders etc) I don't think Haley and are Jindal are in any way lacking. If you mean would they put India's interests above those of their native country, then no way! As an American citizen (I am not), you are required to pledge allegiance but does that mean Haley and Jindal renounce India—no way!

Reshma Sajauni (AFAIK, a Hindu) is running for 14th district congressional seat in New York. She may not win but she would not have even tried had it not been for people like Jindal and others like Preet Bharara.

It is way off base to suggest that Indian-Americans slink around the edges. Some will drive cabs and some will become CEO's and pols. That's how it works. Indian-Americans are starting to attract both positive and negative attention. The former through high levels of achievement and the latter because of high levels of income. In this they are experiencing the a typical reaction: if you're poor, you're scorned and if you're well off, you are envied.

It is not the special responsibility of Indian Americans to correct the wrongs that Native Americans or African Americans or Hispanics have experienced.

If you look around, in LA, African Americans detest Latinos who they see as usurpers especially of government jobs. The Latinos in turn, despise the African Americans and reserve special hatred for Vietnamese and Cambodians who they feel get a special deals from the Feds. And, let's not even talk about the wealthy Cubans immigrants in Florida who pride themselves on keeping 'blacks' out of their neighborhoods. The funniest story (in the NYT) was one where Puerto Ricans in Allentown PA were complaining about Indians: apparently there is a secret handshake among all Indians that requires them to help each other out—a faculty absent among Puerto Ricans and the singular cause of their low economic standing. And on it goes.

The last thing anybody should counsel is that is that 1st and 2nd generation Americans of Indian origin stay out of sight. Indians did that in the UK and abdicated to the Pakis who kicked in the door. I hope that the next generation of Americans of Indian origin produce a 20-(baseball) game winner, a Heisman trophy winner, a NFL wide receiver.

No offence RamaY and CRS.

This is not so much about India/Indic values as it is about America/American values.

There was a fabulous line from one of the X-men films. There is a shape shifter mutant who is asked why she does not pass for 'normal'. The reply was 'you should not have to'. That to me is what a liberal, egalitarian society (like America, at least of imagination or ideals) is all about.

Cosmo_R wrote:
BTW, what are these 'Indic' roots anyway? If you mean Indian values (family, education, respect for elders etc) I don't think Haley and are Jindal are in any way lacking. If you mean would they put India's interests above those of their native country, then no way! As an American citizen (I am not), you are required to pledge allegiance but does that mean Haley and Jindal renounce India—no way!

No offense taken Cosmo-R garu!

Definition of Indic is part of another thread, so I will not go there for now.

As American citizens and that too sitting in policy making positions it is not right to expect them to nurture Indian Interests. If they are American citizens and are having American Interests at heart (both are right things to do) then what Indic-ness left in them except for their faith and world-view?

If they were converted/married-in-to non Indic religions what is stopping them to come back to their original faiths; especially when America is the most tolerant and secular nation in the world ranking top in world religious freedom index? I would accept their Indicness when they lead the new world with their faith intact.

That brings us to their world-view. Taking out the exceptions (people genuinely believe in Vasudhaika Kutumbam) general American public is highly individualistic and materialistic. As long as this world-view is nurtured by the leadership, there always will be a crisis of exploitation at one or the other level.

If an individual is truly dharmic then s/he is an Indian irrespective of their semantics (birth, color, race, gender, space and time). So no problems at all.

P.S: That doesn't mean I do not like them or despise them. S/He is another American citizen to me.

A point of note, Cosmo_R has posted opinion but has included vignette, anecdote and illustration i.e. enhanced information content. Too many posts end up solely opinion, which is usually of limited interest, except to the poster.

There are posters pontificating on Pakistani psychology who perhaps have not met any Pakistani (it can be fairly obvious) or military strategy from their gleanings from Tom Clancy. The utility of posts can be enhanced.

sanjaykumar wrote:This is not so much about India/Indic values as it is about America/American values.

There was a fabulous line from one of the X-men films. There is a shape shifter mutant who is asked why she does not pass for 'normal'. The reply was 'you should not have to'. That to me is what a liberal, egalitarian society (like America, at least of imagination or ideals) is all about.

It is seldom, I see Mystique being quoted on ethics, especially as she belongs to the Brotherhood of Mutants, a fascist organization. Reminds me a bit about the other M. Brotherhood.

It is one thing to be able to be strive for achievement, success, etc. in life, and not have to change your faith for that. Elected public office is another matter. There you need other people to connect to you, identify with you, in which case one would need to change one's 'colors' and 'speech' accordingly.

We SDREs are "argumentative Indians onlee"; been a tad busy this morning, but I can't help jump in; luckily my office is such that nobody else can see my computer screen .

Look guys, first to Ramana. Boss, I don't know what intellectual vacuum there is in American politics. Dems or Reps, Conservatives or Liberals; they all have a sense of purpose, they all believe in American exceptionalism manifested in white Christian nationalism, they all believe in supremacy of western civilization, they are all materialistic to the core etc etc. Except for specific nuances, not much difference between the 2 groups. Even consummate blather like Sarah Palin can get 30%-35% of the electorate. So RamanaGaru, Americans are not in dire need of any new leadership; least of all from Hindu/Sikh SDREs, they are doing fine, thank you very much. Self-loathing turn coats like BH and NH are what I would call "useful idiots" in that they can be paraded to showcase "diversity" while not making even a dent in the essential white Christian nationalist character of the state.

More about BJ and NH. Look, all of us, me included have had to "suck up" for lack of a better phrase, to get ahead. My very act of abandoning India and coming to USA is indicative of that. However, I still have feelings for my roots, I feel that my civilization, my religion, my people have unique attributes worth perpetuating, worth standing up for. On, the other hand, NH & BJ have decided to rid themselves of their roots. Like I said, its an extreme manifestation of the "sucking up" we all do. Good for them. What I cannot fathom is why is it that Indians who care for their roots would give any time of their day to these turncoats. Leave them alone. They have crossed over. They are not indicative of Indian success. They cannot be cultivated to serve Indian interests in the manner in which those of us who care for our roots would want them to serve. They are honorary, wannabe white Christian Americans. Leave them alone to pursue their dreams.

A crude analogy to describe BJ and NH nail the issue. Imagine, with all the weapons and goodies that USA is doling out to TSP Pakijabis; TSPA might decide they are sinking, and lets make one push to get back Mughal glory. They invade India, the going gets tough for India, and some Indians seeing that they are loosing decide to abandon India and join Pakijabis; they convert, eat more goat Biryani that Pakijabis themselves, start to hate SDREs more than Pakijabis themselves; and eventually green crescent flies over the red fort. Turn clock several decades hence; and USA bahadur declares what a great service the Indians who decided to join Pakijabis did for the cause of “world peace” and the welfare of “South Asia”. Now is this indicative of Indian “success”? You get the drift. Likewise, BJ and NH have done good for themselves; they don’t represent Indians.

Seriously, why are people bothered by racists ? Take a deep breath and think - the Indian-American community is tiny, at barely 0.5% of the population. Yet we compete with or exceed many other established minorities (Jews, Japanese, Chinese) despite them having been here a century or more, while Indian immigration is primarily restricted to two waves - the late 1960s civil rights/immigration reform wave and the late 1990s IT one, with a significant number belonging to the second group.

There are significant numbers of issue where having political and lobbyist representation helps. Over the years I've read of several issues that affect Indians, whether it be barriers to expression (e.g. permission to build a temple being rescinded due to 'parking issues') or lack of police support, such as when there were a spate of burglaries targeting Indian households in the SF bay area. People called the political offices and police force to help out in such instances, but were generally ignored, despite high per capita income, spelling bee wins etc.

Understand how this system works, instead of wringing hands about philosophical and moral issues. The system runs on financial and lobbying clout. The only imperative is furthering our own achievement. Being a tiny minority with a vastly disproportionate level of accomplishment in a very short times makes it very important that we also build our own connections into the system, for our protection and advancement. In the good times, it was easy to rise on achievement alone, but as the US deals with difficult socioeconomic times over the next decade, the lack of clout within the establishment will bite us, unless Indian-Americans of all hues get involved.

Focussing on BJ and NH because of alleged non-'Indic'ness means missing out on legions of other Indians who have run successfully for office at various levels. If I were an Indian businessman in LA and Jindal solicited campaign contributions from me, I'd find Jindal's faith irrelevant, provided he responds to my business lobbying imperatives. It's good that people get to see someone with brown skin in positions of power, so they can get used to it. That way, they'll take it easier when they see someone with brown skin and a tilak as well, so to speak.

I write all this as an Indian citizen with no intention to change that status.

More about BJ and NH. Look, all of us, me included have had to "suck up" for lack of a better phrase, to get ahead. My very act of abandoning India and coming to USA is indicative of that. However, I still have feelings for my roots, I feel that my civilization, my religion, my people have unique attributes worth perpetuating, worth standing up for. On, the other hand, NH & BJ have decided to rid themselves of their roots. Like I said, its an extreme manifestation of the "sucking up" we all do. Good for them. What I cannot fathom is why is it that Indians who care for their roots would give any time of their day to these turncoats. Leave them alone. They have crossed over. They are not indicative of Indian success. They cannot be cultivated to serve Indian interests in the manner in which those of us who care for our roots would want them to serve. They are honorary, wannabe white Christian Americans. Leave them alone to pursue their dreams.

CRS garu, sorry but I have to take an objection to this characterization, which IMO is broadbrushing, stereotyping and to some extent an insult to several million Catholic Indians - living in or outside India. On one hand we the dharmics claim that 'religion' or faith is a personal and spiritual matter - between you and God. And now we turn around and claim that a personal choice made by BJ and NH is repugnant enough that we are ready to not even give them a benefit of doubt? I understand fully that in case BJ and NH it is more likely to be expediency rather than conviction (but who am I to judge that?).
Here is my issue with ostracizing BJ/NH and their likes:
- What God they pray to is entirely their business, not mine. I have no personal or civilizational animosity towards people of Indian origin who, out of their conviction or through en enticement or as an expediency, converted to another religion. Maybe a little sadness that they never understood the greatness of what they left behind.
- Now these converts, if they start trashing their erstwhile Dharma, a little dismay then. But I am a Hindu and I find many of the prevalent practices and rituals odious sometimes. I will still give them a benefit of doubt.
- At the end of the day, their actions and words and how they affect INDIA is the only yardstick I would use in deciding my support or opposition to them.
As somebody else pointed out, BJ/NH are the vanguard of slow but certain imprint that Indics will leave on America. This country, in spite of the pompous constitutional guaranty of separation of church and state, still took 170 years to elect a Catholic to the high office, 235 years to elect a Black. It will take a few more decades to elect a Hindu. I prefer to see NH/BJ as harbingers of that glorious change.
BTW Ramana garu pointed out beautifully what enlightenment America needs to complete - that of separation of church and society.
JMHO

Abhijit:

There is a very clear distinction between NH/BJ, and Indian Christians whos care and love the civilization they come from. The point about NH/BJ is not about their spiritual convictions; but the fact that they, realizing that Hindu/Sikh religion with Indian sounding names would be an albatross around their neck and a visceral turn off to "real Americans"; decided to take the easy way out and dump their roots entirely. Thats the issue my friend. And even on this count, as I have said a million times before, they have committed no crime; but what gets my goat is Indians going gaga over their "success" as indicative of Indians arriving on the scene or DDM going into a tizzy. This is cowardice and repugnant to me. I mean, BJ/NH are loudly proclaiming, please leave us alone, we hate our bringing, we loathe our roots; we have decided to abandon those roots, and choose a new identity for ourselves. It behooves those of us to want to see our roots represented, to accord them their privacy instead of running on their co-tails. I cannot undertsand why folks can't get this.

Suraj et al--

People who are ready to ditch and disown simple things such as the religion they were born in (if it does not apply to some then obviously this point does not matter in that context) and stay away from their heritage because it inhibits their chances at "one of us" in US, how in the Gods name will they be "more" amenable to helping their fellow country men than others who dont have to worry on that count?

What do they offer to Indians who are not ready to disown everything they are in order to succeed?

Perhaps a well entrenched Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin would be a better target for persuasion through "suitable" charms, they at least dont have to keep looking over the shoulders.

No I think we Indians are fully aware of the real reasons and behaviors of a fresh convert, "Naya mullah pyaz jyada khata hai" (a new mullah eats more onions) -- If a Indian can be himself/herself and then make their place, good person to latch on to.

BJ and co are loosing investments.